Neil, The additional VO commands are often just easier to reach, but why are you denying yourself the OS ones? One point I will conceed is that the documentation should tell us about both OS and VO keystrokes.
Cheers Dave On 10 Oct 2010, at 19:58, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote: Anne, so you hit the nail on the head in part here, so I'm busy reading the Voice Over manual, which happily guides me through how to do everything the Voice Over way, yet, hang on, there's already a command for that for sighted users, such as the Command F2, which is mirrored by Control, Options, M, well there you have it, three keys instead of two, the sighted Mac keyboard user gets an easier ride than the blind keyboard Mac user. what Apple should do is remove all the duplicate commands. if you can do it with an already established command, they should just put that in the manual, that way us blind users aren't learning a completely different structure of commands to our sighted peers. Several family members have Mac's, yet I feel isolated from asking for help from them, as they are used to things just like you have said, they say Command F2, I say no, its Control, Options, M... this isn't how it should be and is counterproductive. well is in my book anyhow. has anyone sat down and rewritten the Voice Over manual by any chance removing all the unique Voice Over commands and replacing them with existing established keyboard commands? I would be interested to see just how much over lap there is. Twitter @neilbarnfather Neil Barnfather Talks List Administrator TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com -----Original Message----- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson Sent: 10 October 2010 18:56 To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be... Hello Neil, I've never used a PC so can't make comparisons. However, I currently have a student who likes to use just one hand to operate his Mac and he does this by using Quick Nav and Keyboard commander. Everyone has different needs, so you should put in the Keyboard Commander shortcuts that you need and that are not duplicated by Quick Nav. You can then do most things with your right hand. There is also nothing to stop you using the standard Mac shortcuts such as Ctrl-F2 to go to the Apple menu, Ctrl-F3 to go to the Dock and Ctrl-F8 to go to the Status menus. There are lots more like this and i tend to use them rather than the VO equivalents. However, with the VO keys locked, I use the VO commands instead. Cheers, Anne On 10 Oct 2010, at 19:02, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote: > Dear All, > > Many of you will have seen me around before on the various lists so no need > for introductions, I've been a PC user now for in excess of 20 years, and > have attempted to make the switch to Mac now 3 times without success. > > The first point I want to make is that this is not for lack of desire upon > my behalf, rather it is my hope that I am simply missing an essential piece > of the puzzle. this missing part though appears, to me at least, to be the > key, the magic link between making a successful jump or not. > > I've heard all the usual shpeal about, it's not like a PC, so you cannot > think of it like that, put everything you've ever learned about screen > readers aside and think differently or a fresh, it's just the learning > curve, stick with it and you'll get there... > > All of which I've tried and failed at... and when I asked an Apple Genius to > watch over me in a store to analyse where I was going wrong, his response, I > don't understand, you've mastered OSx, it has to be Voice Over... > > So here it is, wide open for you, the cream of the switching community to > hopefully answer once and for all. > > In an e-mail to Apple's illusive Accessibility team, I once commented that > if you took 2 PC users, one sighted and one not, removed the mouse from the > sighted user, that the 2 PC users would both use their computers in the same > way. i.e. that the key strokes / commands are all the same. > > However, get 2 Mac users, one sighted one not, remove the mouse from the > sighted user, the 2 users both use the keyboard differently. > > This thus forcing the Mac Voice Over user to learn the screen reader either > before, or alongside, the actual computer and the OS itself. > > This of course not being so, from my perspective anyhow, on the PC, where > both users, keyboard exclusive or not, both use the machine in the same way. > > My biggest hurdle to date is the keyboard commands and their implementation > on the Mac, it's not that they are different, as I can live with that, it's > the same as buying a new HiFi system, the buttons are in different places > and of a different design. > > What I cannot seem to get over is that with a PC, 95% of what I do is one > handed and in 95% of those instances can be achieved with one finger. > leaving my left hand free to handle papers, telephones etc, etc. > > comparatively, with Voice Over and the Mac, I am finding that I have to use > both hands for the most basic level of navigation, and also that many > commands are as a minimal 3 keys to implement. > > Many have suggested work around such as the Magic Track Pad, indeed, this > would in effect make the Mac behave similarly to the iPhone, iPod Touch, and > iPad, all 3 of which I own. > > However, one cannot get over the fact that this detracts from productivity, > or on the surface of it seems to, this being brought about by the user > moving their hand(s) from the keyboard to the track pad and back again. > > *Note* I understand that Mac Book's have the track pad built in, but it's > still relocating your hands from one input device to another and back again. > > So here's the question which really appears to be the initial clincher for > me, is it possible to use a Mac with essentially one hand and even more > importantly one finger for most commands and navigation. > > I would say, to be fair, that' it's the navigation with one hand or one > finger that is the most important thing. all of JAWS commands require two > fingers or more, but it's the navigation that I just cannot get myself > passed. On my PC using JAWS virtually everything I'm doing is one fingered. > > So, is this possible on the Mac...? the caveat to this should be, that I do > not see the point of spending countless hours re-allocating or arranging > existing commands / navigation commands. It seems to me that Voice Over's > biggest hurdle is the Voice Over command keys, Control + Options key, please > forgive me if I missed up Control and Command. > > Please no-one, this is not a that's JAWS this is Voice Over question, this > is a... Can I use Voice Over and the Mac with one hand or better still one > finger for navigation of the Mac itself? > > Setting the record straight at the get go, this is not an Apple slating, I > wish to make the switch, but it has to be because it's as easy or easier, > the fact that Voice Over is more stable is a factor, but not a huge one. > > I do not buy all the security hype, nor the OS enhancements or stability > front. Yes Voice Over is more stable than JAWS / Window Eyes, but > principally because it is part of the operating platform, and not because > its superior or that Mac OSx is. > > This statement about operating platforms may have held some degree of water > back in the days gone by, but with Windows 7, and a decent PC specification, > one can get as much performance and stability out of a PC as a Mac. > moreover, in terms of security, I've never known anyone I know who has a > brain using a PC to get a virus, the problem is that the PC world is where > the masses are, and many of those masses are nits, and they do stupid > things... when the PC pops up asking if they wish to install and download a > virus to delete all their data, they um, then ah, and then click OK. well > that's stupidity and not Windows being vulnerable. > > *Note* I do accept that if you introduce JAWS or Window Eyes to a PC that > this can affect OS performance and stability. Indeed, my technical support > staff have many a time commented, how to watch an amazing machine, filled > with the latest technology, working like a dream turn to treacle, install > JAWS. > > this is true, and is a significant factor to me wishing to jump ship, of > course if FS did what Microsoft did with Windows 7, i.e. dropped the whole > program and started a fresh, I believe that JAWS could seriously give Voice > Over a run for its money on the stability front. as it happens this move is > highly unlikely. > > So there it is folks, what do you Apple wizards think? > > best regards. > > Twitter @neilbarnfather > > Neil Barnfather > Talks List Administrator > > TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your > accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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