Well, I signed into this account and forgot to sign back into my normal e-mail address so saw this message and figured I would respond. Btw, if I see something in digest mode and want to respond to it, am I allowed to make a separate e-mail or can I snip parts of the e-mail when responding so as not to create clutter? I don't mean technically. I mean according to the rules of this list.
My biggest problem with the Mac is the whole concept of interaction. It's bad enough that Windows has graphical menus instead of clean ones or a command line,, but Mac has those plus this interacting. Even copying and pasting from a webpage to Text Edit is a chore! Buddy, your information on quick nav certainly helped me. I sometimes find it annoying when I accidentally hit the arrow keys and it turns on and I never really knew what it was for until now. Teresa, you're absolutely right on force quitting only the misbehaving programs. That's one thing that Windows, and even DOS, does that truly annoys me. To all those still using JFW etc.: Have you tried NVDA? It's free and is truly a wonderful screenreader, mostly on par with the others. Also, has anyone considered simply putting Windows on the Mac with Bootcamp or a virtual machine? I know the hard core Macusers will give me dirty looks but it is possible. Just don't ask me how, as I've never done it. To Neil: I didn't even know that duplicate commands existed. I thought that the VoiceOver ones were the only ones available and that when the screenreader is turned off, the commands don't work. To me, the concept is incredibly stupid. To Ian: I agree with you on the annoyance of having to use three keys just to navigate a webpage. Now that I have my IBM ThinkPad X32, I rarely use the Mac, except for making Youtube videos and whenever I just want to play with it for a change of pace. But I remember what it was like using it full time. As much as I'm not a Windows fan, I was so happy when that laptop came! To Dave: I never used the numpad. Must try it on my desktop. Perhaps, it will make me even faster at doing things. I would say that DOS beats all of these point and click systems, but then I remembered that VocalEyes and other screenreaders also have review modes. I never thought of it that way with an os that's designed to be used with the keyboard, but you're right. Our access is different. To Teresa: I didn't know that there are Windows commands that have their counterparts in screenreader ones. How do I get ahold of that manual? I completely agree with you about not doing something if it doesn't feel right. It seems like everyone is trying to get me to use some form of Linux because I like the command line. But I have absolutely no desire to learn it or Unix for that matter. I'd much rather learn Enhanced Dr-DOS or FreeDOS. To Scott: Not everyone likes touch screens. I keep hearing about all the benefits of the I products but refuse to get them because they don't have real keyboards. I wish that they would do something about this and not by forcing people to buy external ones and still use gestures either. Talk soon, Eleni PS. Still looking for a good hardware synth. If anyone has a KeyNote Gold especially, a DecTalk Express or PC, a Double Talk LT or PC or a Greek-speaking Apollo, please let me know. Also still haven't gotten the Apple IIGS out to play with Proterm but will update you guys on my progress when I do. On 10/10/2010, Mike Arrigo <n0...@charter.net> wrote: > Hi, if you have a desktop computer, you can use the numpad commander, and > this allows you to use the numpad for most commands. Also, you can turn on > the quick nav feature and this will allow you to use the regular arrow keys > for navigation. I actually enjoy navigating with the track pad, true, I do > have to remove my hand from the keyboard to do that, but that's no big deal > for me. > On Oct 10, 2010, at 12:02 PM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote: > >> Dear All, >> >> Many of you will have seen me around before on the various lists so no >> need >> for introductions, I've been a PC user now for in excess of 20 years, and >> have attempted to make the switch to Mac now 3 times without success. >> >> The first point I want to make is that this is not for lack of desire upon >> my behalf, rather it is my hope that I am simply missing an essential >> piece >> of the puzzle. this missing part though appears, to me at least, to be the >> key, the magic link between making a successful jump or not. >> >> I've heard all the usual shpeal about, it's not like a PC, so you cannot >> think of it like that, put everything you've ever learned about screen >> readers aside and think differently or a fresh, it's just the learning >> curve, stick with it and you'll get there... >> >> All of which I've tried and failed at... and when I asked an Apple Genius >> to >> watch over me in a store to analyse where I was going wrong, his response, >> I >> don't understand, you've mastered OSx, it has to be Voice Over... >> >> So here it is, wide open for you, the cream of the switching community to >> hopefully answer once and for all. >> >> In an e-mail to Apple's illusive Accessibility team, I once commented that >> if you took 2 PC users, one sighted and one not, removed the mouse from >> the >> sighted user, that the 2 PC users would both use their computers in the >> same >> way. i.e. that the key strokes / commands are all the same. >> >> However, get 2 Mac users, one sighted one not, remove the mouse from the >> sighted user, the 2 users both use the keyboard differently. >> >> This thus forcing the Mac Voice Over user to learn the screen reader >> either >> before, or alongside, the actual computer and the OS itself. >> >> This of course not being so, from my perspective anyhow, on the PC, where >> both users, keyboard exclusive or not, both use the machine in the same >> way. >> >> My biggest hurdle to date is the keyboard commands and their >> implementation >> on the Mac, it's not that they are different, as I can live with that, >> it's >> the same as buying a new HiFi system, the buttons are in different places >> and of a different design. >> >> What I cannot seem to get over is that with a PC, 95% of what I do is one >> handed and in 95% of those instances can be achieved with one finger. >> leaving my left hand free to handle papers, telephones etc, etc. >> >> comparatively, with Voice Over and the Mac, I am finding that I have to >> use >> both hands for the most basic level of navigation, and also that many >> commands are as a minimal 3 keys to implement. >> >> Many have suggested work around such as the Magic Track Pad, indeed, this >> would in effect make the Mac behave similarly to the iPhone, iPod Touch, >> and >> iPad, all 3 of which I own. >> >> However, one cannot get over the fact that this detracts from >> productivity, >> or on the surface of it seems to, this being brought about by the user >> moving their hand(s) from the keyboard to the track pad and back again. >> >> *Note* I understand that Mac Book's have the track pad built in, but it's >> still relocating your hands from one input device to another and back >> again. >> >> So here's the question which really appears to be the initial clincher for >> me, is it possible to use a Mac with essentially one hand and even more >> importantly one finger for most commands and navigation. >> >> I would say, to be fair, that' it's the navigation with one hand or one >> finger that is the most important thing. all of JAWS commands require two >> fingers or more, but it's the navigation that I just cannot get myself >> passed. On my PC using JAWS virtually everything I'm doing is one >> fingered. >> >> So, is this possible on the Mac...? the caveat to this should be, that I >> do >> not see the point of spending countless hours re-allocating or arranging >> existing commands / navigation commands. It seems to me that Voice Over's >> biggest hurdle is the Voice Over command keys, Control + Options key, >> please >> forgive me if I missed up Control and Command. >> >> Please no-one, this is not a that's JAWS this is Voice Over question, this >> is a... Can I use Voice Over and the Mac with one hand or better still one >> finger for navigation of the Mac itself? >> >> Setting the record straight at the get go, this is not an Apple slating, I >> wish to make the switch, but it has to be because it's as easy or easier, >> the fact that Voice Over is more stable is a factor, but not a huge one. >> >> I do not buy all the security hype, nor the OS enhancements or stability >> front. Yes Voice Over is more stable than JAWS / Window Eyes, but >> principally because it is part of the operating platform, and not because >> its superior or that Mac OSx is. >> >> This statement about operating platforms may have held some degree of >> water >> back in the days gone by, but with Windows 7, and a decent PC >> specification, >> one can get as much performance and stability out of a PC as a Mac. >> moreover, in terms of security, I've never known anyone I know who has a >> brain using a PC to get a virus, the problem is that the PC world is where >> the masses are, and many of those masses are nits, and they do stupid >> things... when the PC pops up asking if they wish to install and download >> a >> virus to delete all their data, they um, then ah, and then click OK. well >> that's stupidity and not Windows being vulnerable. >> >> *Note* I do accept that if you introduce JAWS or Window Eyes to a PC that >> this can affect OS performance and stability. Indeed, my technical support >> staff have many a time commented, how to watch an amazing machine, filled >> with the latest technology, working like a dream turn to treacle, install >> JAWS. >> >> this is true, and is a significant factor to me wishing to jump ship, of >> course if FS did what Microsoft did with Windows 7, i.e. dropped the whole >> program and started a fresh, I believe that JAWS could seriously give >> Voice >> Over a run for its money on the stability front. as it happens this move >> is >> highly unlikely. >> >> So there it is folks, what do you Apple wizards think? >> >> best regards. >> >> Twitter @neilbarnfather >> >> Neil Barnfather >> Talks List Administrator >> >> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your >> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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