release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS
I've been searching for introduction dates of early microcomputer operating systems, by which I mean only operating systems that run on computers using single-chip microprocessors such as 8008, 8080, and 6800, but not the LSI-11, IMP-16, HP 9830, etc. Intel's ISIS operating system for their MDS was first released in 1975, but I haven't been able to pin down a month. I'm looking for a more specific date for that, and for the releases of any prior microcomputer operating system. On Twitter, @hotelzululima suggested Motorola MIKBUG, introduced in 1974, but IMO it's a monitor, not an operating system. Hzl also suggested Forth, which I also don't really consider to be an operating system in the traditional sense, but if there's evidence of Forth or a Forth-like language available for a microcomputer prior to 1976, that would be interesting as well.
Re: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > I've been searching for introduction dates of early microcomputer > operating systems Are you including or excluding systems like the APL-based Intel 8008 MCM/70? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MCM/70 circa 1974 - I guess Zbigniew's book might provide a precise introductory date.
Re: M8192 KDJ11-A ZKDJB2 XXDP Test Failure
Mouse wrote: > >> [...] a dose of the clue-by-four! > > Häh? What's that "clue-by-four!" ? :-) > > The :-) makes it look as though you actually know what it is, but your > asking for native-anglophone help makes me think perhaps not. So I'm > going to treat this as the request for idiom explanation it looks like > on the surface, with no insult intended if you did indeed already know > the idiom. There may well be people here who don't but just haven't > spoken up. I've googled and saw a picture with some woodstick..that's all. > > It's an English computer-geek idiom. It's playing on the common term > "two-by-four" for a size of wood such as is used in building houses > (which originally was two inches by four inches in cross-section but > these days is significantly smaller, more like 13/8 by 7/2). Cross > "clue" (as in "get a clue") with the notion of thwacking someone with a > two-by-four to get an idea into an idea-resistant victim, and out comes > the "clue-by-four", the notional object with which one whacks someone > to impart a clue. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mo...@rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B Got it, thx. So this means the use of an "argument amplifier" or a "discussion wood"... (translated from german) Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Straße 42, 09600 Oberschöna, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, i...@tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
Re: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Twitter, @hotelzululima suggested Motorola MIKBUG, introduced in > 1974, but IMO it's a monitor, not an operating system. Given the constraints of the systems of that time (speed, memory size, peripheral support) the line between monitor and "operating system" might be tricky to specify. Here's another interesting marginal candidate: DEC MPS A three board Omnibus set that contained an Intel 8008, memory and IO - it had a resident monitor on the KC341 control panel.
RE: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS
> -Original Message- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith > Sent: Tuesday, 15 September, 2015 8:48 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, incl. Intel > ISIS > > I've been searching for introduction dates of early microcomputer operating > systems, by which I mean only operating systems that run on computers > using single-chip microprocessors such as 8008, 8080, and 6800, but not the > LSI-11, IMP-16, HP 9830, etc. > But would you rule out the IM6100. Rather than being a PDP-8 on a chip, it was really more a chip that stole the PDP-8 OS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersil_6100 > Intel's ISIS operating system for their MDS was first released in 1975, but I > haven't been able to pin down a month. I'm looking for a more specific date > for that, and for the releases of any prior microcomputer operating system. > > On Twitter, @hotelzululima suggested Motorola MIKBUG, introduced in > 1974, but IMO it's a monitor, not an operating system. Define an "operating system". If you have no disks what could have gone into MikBug that wasn't there? ... but perhaps you meant DISK Operating System.. Actually to answer my own question the address of the character i/o routines "INCH" and "OUCH" are not designed for portability and later Monitors such as SWTBUG had to jump through (small) hoops to retain compatibility... http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/swtbug/SWTBUG_Users_Guide.pdf > Hzl also suggested > Forth, which I also don't really consider to be an operating system in the > traditional sense, but if there's evidence of Forth or a Forth-like language > available for a microcomputer prior to 1976, that would be interesting as > well. Looks like FLEX for the 6809 was also 1976... http://www.flexusergroup.com/flexusergroup/fug3.htm BUT I don't believe ISIS became an operating system until 1976 when ISIS II added support for disks http://www.retrotechnology.com/dri/isis.html#DDJ and the ISIS II manual has 1976 on Bitsavers has 1976 as the first Copyright. Dave P.S. Often the search for "First" is fruitless, and folks will twist the arguments to suit their needs. So the Manchester SSEM and ENIAC argue constantly argue about the first program. So although ENIAC first ran a program it was stored as acoustic waves, and the Manchester folks argue this was not an "electronic program". Moving on is "Core" electronic storage? So did we have a long wait between the IBM 701 and the first machine with semi-conductor store when we had no computers using electronic storage...
12" Floppy Disks
Morning folks, I've been contacted by a teacher who's looking for any information about 12" floppies. Am I imagining that they really existed? I'm sure I've seen one or seen adverts for them, maybe at Bletchley Park. Others he's contacted think he's getting confused with 12" laser discs but I'm not so sure. Anyone? -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk
Re: 12" Floppy Disks
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 2:39 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > I've been contacted by a teacher who's looking for any information about > 12" floppies. Am I imagining that they really existed? I'm sure I've seen > one or seen adverts for them, maybe at Bletchley Park. Others he's > contacted think he's getting confused with 12" laser discs but I'm not so > sure. When IBM introduced the floppy disk in 1971, they were 8-inch, and that became industry standard, partially supplanted by 5 1/4" when Shugart introduced those in 1976, then 3.5" introduced by Sony and HP in 1982. There were a few other oddball sizes like 4", 3 1/4", 3", 2 1/2", and 2", but none of them were very successful. The market pressure was always to reduce the size of the medium, so I can't imagine why anyone would have made 12" floppy disks.
Re: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 2:34 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > Looks like FLEX for the 6809 was also 1976... A neat trick since the 6809 wasn't introduced until 1978. I assume what is really meant is FLEX for the 6800. > BUT I don't believe ISIS became an operating system until 1976 when ISIS II > added support for disks Are you sure ISIS (one) didn't have disk support? I thought that was shipped with the first Intel MDS-DOS floppy systems for use on the MDS-800 in 1975. A 1975 edition of the MDS-DOS Operator's Manual is listed among other Intel manuals at: http://www.intel-vintage.info/aboutme.htm > and the ISIS II manual has 1976 on Bitsavers has 1976 as the first > Copyright. Which doesn't tell us anything about ISIS (one). > P.S. Often the search for "First" is fruitless, Definitely. I'm not necessarily looking for first, just early. I found evidence of two operating systems for use on Intel's development systems, sold by third parties along with their own floppy disk systems, probably prior to Intel's MDS-DOS introduction. MDOS by Millenium Information Systems Inc. is mentioned in the April 1975 Microcomputer Digest, and DOS-80 by Applied Data Communications in the May 1975 issue. My vague recollection was that MDS-DOS was introduced fairly late in 1975, but I don't have any definitive reference.
Re: 12" Floppy Disks
I'm almost sure that he's thinking in one 5 1/4" of 1.2 mb capacity. Kind Regards Sergio Pedraja 2015-09-15 10:51 GMT+02:00 Eric Smith : > On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 2:39 AM, Adrian Graham > wrote: > > I've been contacted by a teacher who's looking for any information about > > 12" floppies. Am I imagining that they really existed? I'm sure I've seen > > one or seen adverts for them, maybe at Bletchley Park. Others he's > > contacted think he's getting confused with 12" laser discs but I'm not so > > sure. > > When IBM introduced the floppy disk in 1971, they were 8-inch, and > that became industry standard, partially supplanted by 5 1/4" when > Shugart introduced those in 1976, then 3.5" introduced by Sony and HP > in 1982. There were a few other oddball sizes like 4", 3 1/4", 3", 2 > 1/2", and 2", but none of them were very successful. The market > pressure was always to reduce the size of the medium, so I can't > imagine why anyone would have made 12" floppy disks. >
Re: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS
> From: Dave G4UGM > although ENIAC first ran a program it was stored as acoustic waves I don't think ENIAC used acoustic delay storage? Perhaps what you're thinking of is that in the original ENIAC usage, there was no 'program' as we now think of that term; the machine had to be configured (via connecting up computing units with cables) for each separate problem, i.e. more 'configurable' than 'programmable' (at least in the Turing machine sense). Hence the debate over whether it or the Baby was the first 'computer'. Noel
Re: 12" Floppy Disks
On Tue, 15 Sep 2015, Adrian Graham wrote: Morning folks, I've been contacted by a teacher who's looking for any information about 12" floppies. Am I imagining that they really existed? I'm sure I've seen one or seen adverts for them, maybe at Bletchley Park. Others he's contacted think he's getting confused with 12" laser discs but I'm not so sure. Anyone? First, how old is he? If he is under 50, then he may be looking for the EARLY_PERCEPTION 12" floppy. "Man, those things were HUGE! ENORMOUS! When my elementary school teacher brought one into class, it was bigger than my foot!" What he is misremembering is an 8" disk. If he is over 50, then he may be looking for the FADED_MEMORIES 12" floppy. "Man, those things were HUGE! ENORMOUS!" What he is misremembering is an 8" disk. Or, he may be looking for the CREATIVE_MARKETING 12" floppy. When TVs were round, the measurement was the diameter. When they stopped being round, the measurement was the diagonal, or largest length. More recently, they've started to round up. And, now, I think that they are measuring the diagonal of the box that it is shipped in. The diagonal of an 8" disk jacket is about 11", rounded up to 12" Very large objects tend to be remembered as even larger. I have a [damaged] 24" platter from a hard disk. When mentioned later, most people remember it as being "three or four feet diameter!" We have had numerous prior queries about the 12" floppies. One tipoff is that sometimes the person asking will remember that floppies had TWO sizes, "five inch" and "twelve inch". 3.5" will either be called "three inch", or "hard disks"! It is simply a misremembering of eight inch. As Eric pointed out, floppies STARTED at 8", and went DOWN from there. But, could we be wrong? Of course. But, I'm willing to bet $20 that nobody can send me a 12" floppy. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
R: Re: 12" Floppy Disks
May be he's a fisherman :) They tend to oversize everything :D Messaggio originale Da: Fred Cisin Data:15/09/2015 14:01 (GMT+01:00) A: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Oggetto: Re: 12" Floppy Disks On Tue, 15 Sep 2015, Adrian Graham wrote: > Morning folks, > I've been contacted by a teacher who's looking for any information about > 12" floppies. Am I imagining that they really existed? I'm sure I've seen > one or seen adverts for them, maybe at Bletchley Park. Others he's > contacted think he's getting confused with 12" laser discs but I'm not so > sure. > Anyone? First, how old is he? If he is under 50, then he may be looking for the EARLY_PERCEPTION 12" floppy. "Man, those things were HUGE! ENORMOUS! When my elementary school teacher brought one into class, it was bigger than my foot!" What he is misremembering is an 8" disk. If he is over 50, then he may be looking for the FADED_MEMORIES 12" floppy. "Man, those things were HUGE! ENORMOUS!" What he is misremembering is an 8" disk. Or, he may be looking for the CREATIVE_MARKETING 12" floppy. When TVs were round, the measurement was the diameter. When they stopped being round, the measurement was the diagonal, or largest length. More recently, they've started to round up. And, now, I think that they are measuring the diagonal of the box that it is shipped in. The diagonal of an 8" disk jacket is about 11", rounded up to 12" Very large objects tend to be remembered as even larger. I have a [damaged] 24" platter from a hard disk. When mentioned later, most people remember it as being "three or four feet diameter!" We have had numerous prior queries about the 12" floppies. One tipoff is that sometimes the person asking will remember that floppies had TWO sizes, "five inch" and "twelve inch". 3.5" will either be called "three inch", or "hard disks"! It is simply a misremembering of eight inch. As Eric pointed out, floppies STARTED at 8", and went DOWN from there. But, could we be wrong? Of course. But, I'm willing to bet $20 that nobody can send me a 12" floppy. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
RE: 12" Floppy Disks
> > I've been contacted by a teacher who's looking for any information about > 12" floppies. Am I imagining that they really existed? I'm sure I've seen > one or seen adverts for them, maybe at Bletchley Park. Others he's > contacted think he's getting confused with 12" laser discs but I'm not so > sure. First I've heard of them :-) I wonder if he's thinking of the 14" hard disk cartridges, perhaps the front loading ones used in things like the RK05 drive. -tony
RE: M8192 KDJ11-A ZKDJB2 XXDP Test Failure
> Got it, thx. > > So this means the use of an "argument amplifier" or a "discussion wood"... > (translated from german) Yes :-) Another common term is 'cluestick'. It's a type of LART (Luser Attitude Readjustment Tool). When HP released the LogicDart, I jokingly suggested it should be a 'Designer Attitude Readjustment Tool'. -tony
PDP-11 manuals scanned/scanning
OK, so I finally got set up to scan manuals, with a scanner with a document feeder, so I don't have to sit there and feed the beast! So now I can scan in a number of 'missing' (online, at least) PDP-11 manuals which I happen to have. The first thing through the machine was the DZV11 Technical Manual (which Paul Anderson was gracious enough to loan out, to enable it to be put online - thanks Paul!), now available here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/EK-DZV11-TM-001_Jun78.pdf (as always, please download/distribute/replicate to other repositories). I also did the 11/34 cache board user manual, now here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/EK-KK11A-UG-001_Oct78.pdf I have also gone through my set of manuals and prepared a list of all the ones which aren't online. I will slowly be scanning these in, but if anyone has a particular need for any of these, please let me know, and I'll move it to the top of the queue. They are: EK-881PC-UG-003 881 Power Controller User Guide EK-H9646-UG-002 H9646-AH/AJ Cabinet System User Guide DEC-11-H40SA-B-DPDP-11/40, -11/35 (21 Inch Chassis) System Manual EK-FP11C-OP-001 FP11-C Floating Point Processor User's Manual EK-1184A-TM-PR4 11/84 Technical Reference (Preliminary) EK-1184E-TM-001 PDP-11/84 System Technical and Reference Manual EK-1184E-MG PDP-11/84-E User's and Maintenance Guide EK-DHU11-TM-001 DHU11 Technical Manual (although IIRC that last is in a glued binding, so it's not really amenable to being auto-fed unless I rip it apart, which I am loathe to do). I also have: DEC-11-HR6B-D PDP-11 Conventions Manual but that's in print format (i.e. large pages), and I'd have to hand-feed that one through my A3 scanner. The auto-feed scanner I have is an older Epson, which I got on eBay for not very much. I'm using just the Twain driver from Epson; I'm doing my scanning from IrfanView (a _very_ useful image tool, which if you don't have it, download it, it's free) which spits out the CCITT4 TIFF's directly - and can even number the output files backwards - incredibly useful when scanning hunks of double-sided pages on a single-sided scanner! If anyone wants to get set up to scan manuals, and wants to copy what I did, let me know, and I'll provide details. Noel
Re: Is tape dead?
Delete it on the master and have it faithfully deleted on the replica. On 15 September 2015 at 00:13, Dave G4UGM wrote: > I spoke to my former employer and they are ditching tape. They want > off-site > replication and if they have an off-site replica they see no need for > tape. > > Dave > > > -Original Message- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > > Loken > > Sent: 14 September 2015 23:56 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: Re: Is tape dead? > > > > The death of tape is greatly exagerated. > > > > My duties today included removing 50 tapes from our Storagetek 500 tape > > library and sending them offsite for safe storage. These are LTO-5 > cartridges > > that can hold up to 30 Tbyte of compressed data and it can be written on > the > > tape with astonishing speed. > > > > On the other hand, my employer is bored with 40Gbyte DLT cartriges > > because 40Gbyte is little more than a SSSD 5-1/4" floppy disk these days > so I > > now can have them for free. I have a DLT4000 backing up my toy OpenVMS > > box here at the office and another DLT4000 backing up my toy FreeBSD box > > at home. > > As for cartidges, I am overwelmed with media - including three unopened > > cartons of NIB DLT-IV cartridges. > > > > -- > >Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a > > father > >Athabasca University: but you have to > earn > >Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of > 'daddy'" > >** richar...@admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston > > > -- 4.4 > 5.4
Re: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS
On 9/15/15 4:57 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: the machine had to be configured (via connecting up computing units with cables) In 1947 ENIAC was modifed at BRL to be a stored program computer. http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1339839
Re: PDP-11 manuals scanned/scanning
On 9/15/15 6:34 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: The first thing through the machine was the DZV11 Technical Manual (which Paul Anderson was gracious enough to loan out, to enable it to be put online - thanks Paul!), now available here: thanks! UL-ing them now.
RE: Is tape dead?
Along the lines of this thread... back a few years ago when it was mentioned on the list that the last company making 1/2 mag tape was ceasing production, I bought a couple cases (I think 24 tapes total). I'm about 3/4ths of the way through them. Anyone know if new manufactured 1/2 mag tape can still be purchased these days and where? I don't want NOS that's been sitting on a shelf for 10 years J
Re: 12" Floppy Disks
> On Sep 15, 2015, at 4:39 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > > Morning folks, > > I've been contacted by a teacher who's looking for any information about > 12" floppies. Am I imagining that they really existed? I'm sure I've seen > one or seen adverts for them, maybe at Bletchley Park. Others he's > contacted think he's getting confused with 12" laser discs but I'm not so > sure. The PLATO IV terminals (the hardwired Magnavox ones, not the later microprocessor based ones) had an optional "Audio player". That used a floppy disk of about that size, storing analog audio snippets (in analog form, not digitized -- remember, this was around 1972). Seek was done by a pneumatic D/A converter, essentially. There were 128 tracks, each with 32 sectors. Those disks had no sleeve -- you'd just slide the bare magnetic disk into the player mechanism. paul
Re: PDP-11 manuals scanned/scanning
-Oorspronkelijk bericht- From: Noel Chiappa Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 3:34 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Cc: j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: PDP-11 manuals scanned/scanning OK, so I finally got set up to scan manuals, with a scanner with a document feeder, so I don't have to sit there and feed the beast! So now I can scan in a number of 'missing' (online, at least) PDP-11 manuals which I happen to have. I have also gone through my set of manuals and prepared a list of all the ones which aren't online. I will slowly be scanning these in, but if anyone has a particular need for any of these, please let me know, and I'll move it to the top of the queue. They are: EK-1184A-TM-PR4 11/84 Technical Reference (Preliminary) EK-1184E-TM-001 PDP-11/84 System Technical and Reference Manual EK-1184E-MG PDP-11/84-E User's and Maintenance Guide If anyone wants to get set up to scan manuals, and wants to copy what I did, let me know, and I'll provide details. Noel == Thanks Noel. In my Océ days I have scanned a lot, especially FMPS-s. I know I probably have a few manuals that are not available for download, but I would be very interested in the 11/84 docs, as far as not available. My 11/84 boots till "04", but I cannot continue (entering a boot device code on the console), because the console comm lines are defective. Might be a PSU issue, have not (yet) investigated further ... Thanks, - Henk
Re: Is tape dead?
On Mon, 14 Sep 2015, drlegendre . wrote: To the clown, to the CLOWN!! =P Fixed that for ya. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
Re: 12" Floppy Disks
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 7:27 AM, tony duell wrote: > > > > I've been contacted by a teacher who's looking for any information about > > 12" floppies. Am I imagining that they really existed? I'm sure I've seen > > one or seen adverts for them, maybe at Bletchley Park. Others he's > > contacted think he's getting confused with 12" laser discs but I'm not so > > sure. > > First I've heard of them :-) > > I wonder if he's thinking of the 14" hard disk cartridges, perhaps the > front loading > ones used in things like the RK05 drive. I have the platters from one of these drives. One of the "youngsters" brought in platters from a 5 1/4" drive to show off his IT cred. Then one of the older youngsters brought in a ~9" platter from some SMD drive. I brought in the ~14" platter from a very old DEC drive that crashed (RK04 sticks in my head, but I might be wrong). Perhaps this is what he's thinking about? Warner
Re: 12" Floppy Disks
In this day and age, nothing surprises me. The question also hinges on the nationality and age of the questioner. A common 5.25" floppy is about 13 cm in size. Perhaps the young teacher didn't have his units correct. People often don't believe me when I tell them that the floppy disc actually hails back to the 1950s. But it does and was not used for digital recording. --Chuck
Re: PDP-11 manuals scanned/scanning
-Oorspronkelijk bericht- From: Noel Chiappa Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 3:34 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Cc: j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: PDP-11 manuals scanned/scanning OK, so I finally got set up to scan manuals, with a scanner with a document feeder, so I don't have to sit there and feed the beast! So now I can scan in a number of 'missing' (online, at least) PDP-11 manuals which I happen to have. [... snip ...] I also did the 11/34 cache board user manual, now here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/EK-KK11A-UG-001_Oct78.pdf If anyone wants to get set up to scan manuals, and wants to copy what I did, let me know, and I'll provide details. Noel == BTW, I have EK-KK11A-TM-001 "KK11-A cache memory technical manual". It is a scan of a printed version from a microfiche ... I got the microfiche and could print it on some microfiche to A4 sheet printer at community hall archive. After that, I scanned the printed copy, which was of mediocre quality. The scanner was of the Océ 3165, which does 600 dpi at 256 grey tones. And that at 60 pages per minute ... I really miss that scanner ! The scan is 7.8 MB. If somebody wants it, I can email it. Distribution is also a backup for me :-) - Henk
RE: 12" Floppy Disks
> The PLATO IV terminals (the hardwired Magnavox ones, not the later > microprocessor based > ones) had an optional "Audio player". That used a floppy disk of about that > size, storing > analog audio snippets (in analog form, not digitized -- remember, this was > around 1972). > Seek was done by a pneumatic D/A converter, essentially. There were 128 > tracks, each > with 32 sectors. > > Those disks had no sleeve -- you'd just slide the bare magnetic disk into the > player mechanism. I have an office dictating machine here, I think it is badged 'Olympia' which used magnetic disks. It appears that the disk had a spiral groove cut in it, like a gramophone record, the magnetic head ran along this [1] and could be lifted and repositioned (like the tone arm of a gramophone) to skip long distances forwards or backwards. [1] I have heard of a similar machine with a sprial 'cam' as part of the machine to guide the head, this does not have that or any evidence of it. The magnetic head does the guiding. I do not have any disks for it, but from the user guide (which I do not know what happeend to) the normal disk was 'rigid' (I assume hard plastic), there was also a flexible version for sending by mail. From the size of the slot and turntable, I think the disk is about 7" diameter, I think with this machine you just inserted the 'naked floppy'. No sleeve. I don't know the exact date, but from the technology used (a pair of B9A based valves and contact-cooled metel rectifiers) I would guess early-mid 1960s. -tony
RE: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS
It was converted to being "programmable" in 1948. > -Original Message- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel > Chiappa > Sent: Tuesday, 15 September, 2015 12:58 PM > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Cc: j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Re: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, incl. > Intel ISIS > > > From: Dave G4UGM > > > although ENIAC first ran a program it was stored as acoustic waves > > I don't think ENIAC used acoustic delay storage? Perhaps what you're > thinking of is that in the original ENIAC usage, there was no 'program' as we > now think of that term; the machine had to be configured (via connecting up > computing units with cables) for each separate problem, i.e. more > 'configurable' than 'programmable' (at least in the Turing machine sense). > Hence the debate over whether it or the Baby was the first 'computer'. > > Noel
RE: 12" Floppy Disks
> > I wonder if he's thinking of the 14" hard disk cartridges, perhaps the > > front loading > > ones used in things like the RK05 drive. > > > I have the platters from one of these drives. One of the "youngsters" A fair number of list members have such drives, still operational. If I crane my neck in just the right way I can see about a dozen of them of various types waiting for me to set up my 'Large Machine Room'. > brought > in platters from a 5 1/4" drive to show off his IT cred. Then one of the > older > youngsters brought in a ~9" platter from some SMD drive. I brought in the > ~14" platter from a very old DEC drive that crashed (RK04 sticks in my > head, but I might be wrong). AFAIK the RK04 never existed. The RK02 and RK03 were re-badged Diablo Model 30 drives, the 02 being low density and the 03 high density. The RK05, very well known was a DEC drive of the same capacity, physical track format, etc as the RK03 (that is 'high density, about 2.5 MBytes on a disk). The RK04, had it existed, would have been the low density version of the DEC drive, but I can find no reference to it anywhere. The RK02 to RK05 took a front-loading disk cartridge containing a single 14" disk. It was intended to be interchanged by the user, like a floppy disk [1]. There were many other models of 14" drives, some were designed for the user to interchange the disks (some front loading, some top loading) others were more like a modern hard disk and were sealed winchester-type units. [1] For the pedants, I do know what an RK05F is On drives where the user was expected to interchange the disks, a headcrash was not uncommon (due to contamination from dust when the drive is open, especially if the absolute air filter wasn't changed regularly). This was nearly always fatal to the disk, often it wrecked the heads too (but not always, there are plenty of stories of RK05s (particularly) where there was a headcrash but the heads cleaned up fine) but it was not normal to replace the drive when this happened. Not being a sealed unit, you could replace the heads and other parts in the field, you did not need a cleanroom. -tony Perhaps this is what he's thinking about? Warner
RE: Is tape dead?
You can't access the replica directly. Even if you could the replicas use incremental revisions, so you can go back to previous versions > -Original Message- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy > Dawson > Sent: Tuesday, 15 September, 2015 2:57 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Is tape dead? > > Delete it on the master and have it faithfully deleted on the replica. > > On 15 September 2015 at 00:13, Dave G4UGM > wrote: > > > I spoke to my former employer and they are ditching tape. They want > > off-site replication and if they have an off-site replica they see no > > need for tape. > > > > Dave > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > > Richard Loken > > > Sent: 14 September 2015 23:56 > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > > > Subject: Re: Is tape dead? > > > > > > The death of tape is greatly exagerated. > > > > > > My duties today included removing 50 tapes from our Storagetek 500 > > > tape library and sending them offsite for safe storage. These are > > > LTO-5 > > cartridges > > > that can hold up to 30 Tbyte of compressed data and it can be > > > written on > > the > > > tape with astonishing speed. > > > > > > On the other hand, my employer is bored with 40Gbyte DLT cartriges > > > because 40Gbyte is little more than a SSSD 5-1/4" floppy disk these > > > days > > so I > > > now can have them for free. I have a DLT4000 backing up my toy > > > OpenVMS box here at the office and another DLT4000 backing up my toy > > > FreeBSD box at home. > > > As for cartidges, I am overwelmed with media - including three > > > unopened cartons of NIB DLT-IV cartridges. > > > > > > -- > > >Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be > > > a father > > >Athabasca University: but you have to > > earn > > >Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of > > 'daddy'" > > >** richar...@admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston > > > > > > > > > -- > 4.4 > 5.4
Re: Is tape dead?
On Mon, 14 Sep 2015 et...@757.org wrote: > 30Tbyte compressed* > (100Gbyte uncompressed) Well in this case they claim 15Tbyte uncompressed but 100Gbyte uncompressed is still a lot more than a DLT-IV will hold. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father Athabasca University: but you have to earn Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" ** richar...@admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston
RE: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS
All I get from that is an Abstract and and invitation to pay lots of money. The University I work for is not on the ACM list. Anyone have an original paper copy they could send be? > -Original Message- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: Tuesday, 15 September, 2015 2:58 PM > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, incl. > Intel ISIS > > On 9/15/15 4:57 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > the machine had to be configured (via connecting up computing units > > with cables) > > In 1947 ENIAC was modifed at BRL to be a stored program computer. > > http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1339839 > > >
Re: 12" Floppy Disks
> On Sep 15, 2015, at 12:28 PM, tony duell wrote: > > ... > AFAIK the RK04 never existed. The RK02 and RK03 were re-badged Diablo Model 30 > drives, the 02 being low density and the 03 high density. The RK05, very well > known > was a DEC drive of the same capacity, physical track format, etc as the RK03 > (that is > 'high density, about 2.5 MBytes on a disk). There was also an RK08, as I recall -- same platter as the RK11/RK05 but 16 sectors per track instead of 12. If I remember correctly, that same 16-sector platter was used in the IBM 360 model 44 which had an RK05 lookalike built into the CPU cabinet (on the side). I never used it; not sure if OS/360 supported it, that might have been PS/44 only. If yes, one wonders if it was fixed size sectors, a rather un-OS-like thing to do... paul
ZX Spectrum disk interfaces
A question born only of idle curiosity. In thge 1980s, I bought an MGT +D disk interface for the Sinclair ZX Spectrum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%2BD In the end, I traded mine in for its upmarket cousin, the DISCiPLE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DISCiPLE (I link to WP as I originally wrote those articles, IIRC. :-) ) I have noticed that multiple people have now cloned the +D: http://sintech-shop.co.uk/sinclair/-d-disk-interface-clone/a-6196/ http://www.rwapsoftware.co.uk/spectrum/spectrum_storage.html#plusd But this post, from FB, claims that the Beta Disk interface can handle high-density drives, giving 1.5MB per disk: https://www.facebook.com/groups/speccy4ever/permalink/1237322356346334/ Given that HD floppies and drives are far more readily-available than DD these days, how come most 8-bit interfaces can only handle DD? Is it purely a data rate issue? -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)
Re: internet blocking problem ?
I don't know if anyone got to the bottom of this blockage, but I noticed this morning that the site "members.iinet.net.au" is now accessible from my comcast (oregon) location. It's still broken elsewhere because few of the sites I visited that should be on the ring have working webring links, so the javascript inclusion must not yet be universally accessable... -Gary On 09/11/2015 09:55 AM, Gary Oliver wrote: Works fine, save for the individual web-ring pages not being able to populate the buttons correctly. Going directly to a members... page does work from this proxy.
Re: Is tape dead?
On Tue, 15 Sep 2015, Guy Dawson wrote: Delete it on the master and have it faithfully deleted on the replica. Yeah. Backup should NOT be connected to the computer that it is backing up, and should be a drive, NOT a connected computer. Ever heard of CRYPTOWALL ? I think that I got it from looking at PDFs on the web while doing some research. It's a trojan, not a virus. It runs in the background encrypting files. Then it pops up a message demanding 500 euros for the key! I had a 2 TB backup drive connected to my living room computer. It got 8000 files on the computer, then got 1000 files on the backup drive before I found out and stopped it last night. Fortunately, 990 of those are ones that I also have on another machine (the files that I copied from my dead friend's laptop), and hadn't finished that directory to move on to the stuff that might be really hard to recreate. The backup drive is no longer connected to the computer. So, I have a lot of files to recreate. and no sleep last night. I will donate 500 euros to the legal defense fund of anybody who kills the author of CRYPTOWALL.
RE: 12" Floppy Disks
> There was also an RK08, as I recall -- same platter as the RK11/RK05 but 16 > sectors per track instead of 12. I thought the RK(0)8 was the controller for a PDP8 system. I have an RK8E in my PDP8/E, it links to a normal RK05 drive. It does indeed use 16 (hard) sector packs, unlike the 12 sector ones used in the same RK05 drives linked to an RK11 controller (RK11C, RK11D, RKV11D) on a PDP11. The HP7900 drive uses the same type of cartridge but 24 sector. -tony
Re: Is tape dead?
> On Sep 15, 2015, at 1:12 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Tue, 15 Sep 2015, Guy Dawson wrote: >> Delete it on the master and have it faithfully deleted on the replica. > > Yeah. > > Backup should NOT be connected to the computer that it is backing up, and > should be a drive, NOT a connected computer. > > Ever heard of CRYPTOWALL ? ... It depends on the purpose of the backup. There are two major possibilities (1) to recover from operator error (2) to recover from destruction of the system. The malware you're describing is really a variant of (2). For (1), on-system backups, or snapshots, or stuff like that are fine. The concern is a file that was accidentally deleted or clobbered, and another copy of that file on the same machine, or connected nearby, will serve. For (2) you need a backup that is isolated from whatever event clobbered your system. That event might be fire, earthquake, or malware. For all of those, distance and possibly isolation are what you need. If you care about fast recovery from both classes of issue, you will want to consider two backups, one for each kind of problem. The one for (1) can typically run much more frequently than the one for (2). paul
Re: Is tape dead?
On Tue, 15 Sep 2015, Fred Cisin wrote: Ever heard of CRYPTOWALL ? I think that I got it from looking at PDFs on the web while doing some research. It's a trojan, not a virus. It runs in the background encrypting files. Then it pops up a message demanding 500 euros for the key! Out of curiousity, were you running any sort of protective software (e.g. Symantec, Kaspersky, etc.)? --
Re: 12" Floppy Disks
> On Sep 15, 2015, at 1:11 PM, tony duell wrote: > > > >> There was also an RK08, as I recall -- same platter as the RK11/RK05 but 16 >> sectors per track instead of 12. > > I thought the RK(0)8 was the controller for a PDP8 system. I have an RK8E in > my PDP8/E, it links to > a normal RK05 drive. > > It does indeed use 16 (hard) sector packs, unlike the 12 sector ones used in > the same RK05 drives > linked to an RK11 controller (RK11C, RK11D, RKV11D) on a PDP11. Yes, that sounds right. The terminology gets a bit confusing. I thought the drives were actually different because of the sector count, but it sounds like that's handled in the controller and the drive doesn't care. paul
Re: Is tape dead?
Sometimes I think management just wants to offload the important work to some other entity so they can move the blame once things go south (and they eventually will). So much in the news about companies getting hacked and all the information stolen makes me wonder why your competition just cant have you hacked and your files tampered with. By the time you figure out something is fishy your off site mirror data might be screwed as well. The cloud is a hackers dream, why spend the time to hack individual companies when you can hack a data center and get 1000's of them at once. I like tape for archives and collect all kinds of formats for fun. Most of what I use personally is LTO 1/2 since its so cheap and 100/200GB per tape is still useful. For old machines you just mess around with DLT/DDS/AIT work just fine. I have QIC tapes from the early 90's that are still readable if needed. -Original Message- From: Dave G4UGM Sent: Monday, September 14, 2015 7:13 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Is tape dead? I spoke to my former employer and they are ditching tape. They want off-site replication and if they have an off-site replica they see no need for tape. Dave -Original Message- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Loken Sent: 14 September 2015 23:56 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Is tape dead? The death of tape is greatly exagerated. My duties today included removing 50 tapes from our Storagetek 500 tape library and sending them offsite for safe storage. These are LTO-5 cartridges that can hold up to 30 Tbyte of compressed data and it can be written on the tape with astonishing speed. On the other hand, my employer is bored with 40Gbyte DLT cartriges because 40Gbyte is little more than a SSSD 5-1/4" floppy disk these days so I now can have them for free. I have a DLT4000 backing up my toy OpenVMS box here at the office and another DLT4000 backing up my toy FreeBSD box at home. As for cartidges, I am overwelmed with media - including three unopened cartons of NIB DLT-IV cartridges. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father Athabasca University: but you have to earn Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" ** richar...@admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Re: Is tape dead?
Well in this case they claim 15Tbyte uncompressed but 100Gbyte uncompressed is still a lot more than a DLT-IV will hold. 15GByte uncompressed and 100Gbyte compressed? Tape companies always misrepresent their products. Compressed doesn't count.
Re: Is tape dead?
Ever heard of CRYPTOWALL ? I think that I got it from looking at PDFs on the web while doing some research. It's a trojan, not a virus. It runs in the background encrypting files. Then it pops up a message demanding 500 euros for the key! Sounds like Cryptolocker. Even the police paid the ransom to get their data back. At home I use an older Supermicro 15 bay 3u server as a NAS. I bought every disk in a pair, and usually don't buy it in advance. Even though it has a 24 port 3ware card, only the OS disk is mirrored, all the others are exported JBOD (single disk, no RAID) Then I manually run an rsync script here and there to copy the data from disk set A to B. Disk set A is the only one exported via NFS/SMB, so the only one the Windows and Mac systems can get to. Originally I was meaning to script it so the B disks would be spun down, but haven't gotten around to that yet.
Re: Is tape dead?
Ever heard of CRYPTOWALL ? I think that I got it from looking at PDFs on the web while doing some research. It's a trojan, not a virus. It runs in the background encrypting files. Then it pops up a message demanding 500 euros for the key! On Tue, 15 Sep 2015, Steven Hirsch wrote: Out of curiousity, were you running any sort of protective software (e.g. Symantec, Kaspersky, etc.)? AVG and McAfee. not necessarily the best stuff. Scan, while the malware was screwing stuff up in the background, did not find anything to complain about!
Re: Is tape dead?
>> Delete it on the master and have it faithfully deleted on the replica. > Backup should NOT be connected to the computer that it is backing up, > and should be a drive, NOT a connected computer. Depends on why you have backups - that is, what kind of trouble the backups are intended to defend against. I've identified three basic reasons to keep backups: (1) "Oops." This includes things like running rm in the wrong directory by mistake. (2) "History." This is things like "okay, this was working last May, what was in the config file then?" and "when was it we installed that?". (3) "Oh no." This includes things like disk drives dying. If anyone has a fourth reason to suggest, I'd be interested. (Note that getting cracked is basically a cross of (1) and (2) - and, indeed, (1) can be viewed as a very-short-term form of (2).) The thing is, for (3) you _want_ live replication, because you want your replica to be as up-to-date as possible when a drive fails - but for (1) and (2) live replication goes against the whole point (though depending on how it's done it can be tool in the service of such backups; historical backups can be done by freezing live replication and saving offline copies of the replicas). Thus, the answer to "are live replicas good backups?" is actually a definite "maybe, depending on your threat model". /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
Re: Is tape dead?
>> Ever heard of CRYPTOWALL ? I think that I got it from looking at >> PDFs on the web while doing some research. [...] I trust you've now switched PDF viewers to one that doesn't gratuitously execute (attempts at) live content? > Sounds like Cryptolocker. Even the police paid the ransom to get > their data back. If the police needed to even _consider_ doing that, they need to fire whoever decided they didn't need proper backups. (And whoever was responsible for the mistake that got it running there to begin with, either whoever decided to let it run or whoever decided to use tools that would let it run, depending.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
Re: Is tape dead?
Ever heard of CRYPTOWALL ? I think that I got it from looking at PDFs on the web while doing some research. It's a trojan, not a virus. It runs in the background encrypting files. Then it pops up a message demanding 500 euros for the key! On Tue, 15 Sep 2015, et...@757.org wrote: Sounds like Cryptolocker. Even the police paid the ransom to get their data back. Detection while running is no big deal. But, after the damage is done, recovery is extremely difficult. Not worth asking John Gilmore for help building Deep Crack. Would anybody really trust the miscreants to provide the key after the ransom is paid?
Re: Is tape dead?
On Sep 15, 2015, at 12:41 PM, Mouse wrote: > (3) "Oh no." This includes things like disk drives dying. (3a) “ does that smell like smoke to you?” - > offsite backups...
Re: Is tape dead?
Ever heard of CRYPTOWALL ? I think that I got it from looking at PDFs on the web while doing some research. [...] On Tue, 15 Sep 2015, Mouse wrote: I trust you've now switched PDF viewers to one that doesn't gratuitously execute (attempts at) live content? Google Chrome and Internet Explorer. I'm more inclined to suspect the latter, but I obviously did not have them configured the way that I thought that I did. Sounds like Cryptolocker. Even the police paid the ransom to get their data back. If the police needed to even _consider_ doing that, they need to fire whoever decided they didn't need proper backups. (And whoever was responsible for the mistake that got it running there to begin with, either whoever decided to let it run or whoever decided to use tools that would let it run, depending.) Far too many guvmint agencies have far too much stuff "easily accessible" that shouldn't be.
Re: Is tape dead?
> On Sep 15, 2015, at 1:49 PM, Mouse wrote: > ... > If the police needed to even _consider_ doing that, they need to fire > whoever decided they didn't need proper backups. But the nice thing about not having proper backups is that you can pretend "the drive failed" if someone requires you to disclose embarassing data. paul
Re: Is tape dead?
On 15 September 2015 at 19:40, Fred Cisin wrote: > AVG and McAfee. not necessarily the best stuff. > Scan, while the malware was screwing stuff up in the background, did not > find anything to complain about! Until a few weeks ago I worked for AVG. *Don't* run 2 resident shield apps at once. They conflict. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)
Re: 12" Floppy Disks
On 2015-09-15 19:03, Paul Koning wrote: On Sep 15, 2015, at 12:28 PM, tony duell wrote: ... AFAIK the RK04 never existed. The RK02 and RK03 were re-badged Diablo Model 30 drives, the 02 being low density and the 03 high density. The RK05, very well known was a DEC drive of the same capacity, physical track format, etc as the RK03 (that is 'high density, about 2.5 MBytes on a disk). There was also an RK08, as I recall -- same platter as the RK11/RK05 but 16 sectors per track instead of 12. If I remember correctly, that same 16-sector platter was used in the IBM 360 model 44 which had an RK05 lookalike built into the CPU cabinet (on the side). I never used it; not sure if OS/360 supported it, that might have been PS/44 only. If yes, one wonders if it was fixed size sectors, a rather un-OS-like thing to do... Actually, the disk pack don't change the designation here. The RK05 was used both on PDP-8 and PDP-11 systems. On a PDP-8 you use a disk with 16 sectors, while on the PDP-11 you use a disk with 12 sectors. And, of course, on the PDP-8 you have 256 12-bit words per sector, while on the PDP-11 you have 256 16-bit words. So it ends up being the same number of data bits per track. So the disk packs themselves had different designations. But the drive is identical. As far as I know, there never was a RK08. The RK06 and RK07 were the last two with that designation. Johnny
RE: Is tape dead?
> -Original Message- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of TeoZ > Sent: 15 September 2015 18:24 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Is tape dead? > > Sometimes I think management just wants to offload the important work to > some other entity so they can move the blame once things go south (and > they eventually will). I think there are other pressures, but I am sure there is an element of this. The other one is that they are under pressure to save money and often there can be short term "savings".. .. and once there is no internal system to compare with then senior management can't dispute the costs > So much in the news about companies getting hacked > and all the information stolen makes me wonder why your competition just > cant have you hacked and your files tampered with. By the time you figure > out something is fishy your off site mirror data might be screwed as well. That's why you need to be able to go back generations as well. I also see that the rise in "ransom ware" in a corperate environment.. > The > cloud is a hackers dream, why spend the time to hack individual companies > when you can hack a data center and get 1000's of them at once. > Because if it is done properly it looks like lots of individual companies and hacking them all can be a problem. I also believe that cloud companies are less likely to take short cuts with security > I like tape for archives and collect all kinds of formats for fun. Most of what I > use personally is LTO 1/2 since its so cheap and 100/200GB per tape is still > useful. For old machines you just mess around with DLT/DDS/AIT work just > fine. I have QIC tapes from the early 90's that are still readable if needed. > I have a selection of tapes but DLT2 is my biggest... Dave > > -Original Message- > From: Dave G4UGM > Sent: Monday, September 14, 2015 7:13 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Is tape dead? > > I spoke to my former employer and they are ditching tape. They want off- > site replication and if they have an off-site replica they see no need for > tape. > > Dave > > > -Original Message- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > Richard Loken > > Sent: 14 September 2015 23:56 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: Re: Is tape dead? > > > > The death of tape is greatly exagerated. > > > > My duties today included removing 50 tapes from our Storagetek 500 > > tape library and sending them offsite for safe storage. These are > > LTO-5 > cartridges > > that can hold up to 30 Tbyte of compressed data and it can be written > > on > the > > tape with astonishing speed. > > > > On the other hand, my employer is bored with 40Gbyte DLT cartriges > > because 40Gbyte is little more than a SSSD 5-1/4" floppy disk these > > days > so I > > now can have them for free. I have a DLT4000 backing up my toy > > OpenVMS box here at the office and another DLT4000 backing up my toy > > FreeBSD box at home. > > As for cartidges, I am overwelmed with media - including three > > unopened cartons of NIB DLT-IV cartridges. > > > > -- > >Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a > > father > >Athabasca University: but you have to earn > >Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of > 'daddy'" > >** richar...@admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Re: Is tape dead?
>> (3) "Oh no." This includes things like disk drives dying. > (3a) does that smell like smoke to you? - > offsite > backups... Yes. Offsite backups are an important piece for many threat models. But that's mostly orthogonal to whether they're designed to defend against my (1), (2), or (3); any of them can be done offsite. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
Re: 12" Floppy Disks
> On Sep 15, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On 2015-09-15 19:03, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> On Sep 15, 2015, at 12:28 PM, tony duell wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> AFAIK the RK04 never existed. The RK02 and RK03 were re-badged Diablo Model >>> 30 >>> drives, the 02 being low density and the 03 high density. The RK05, very >>> well known >>> was a DEC drive of the same capacity, physical track format, etc as the >>> RK03 (that is >>> 'high density, about 2.5 MBytes on a disk). >> >> There was also an RK08, as I recall -- same platter as the RK11/RK05 but 16 >> sectors per track instead of 12. >> >> If I remember correctly, that same 16-sector platter was used in the IBM 360 >> model 44 which had an RK05 lookalike built into the CPU cabinet (on the >> side). I never used it; not sure if OS/360 supported it, that might have >> been PS/44 only. If yes, one wonders if it was fixed size sectors, a rather >> un-OS-like thing to do... > > Actually, the disk pack don't change the designation here. > The RK05 was used both on PDP-8 and PDP-11 systems. On a PDP-8 you use a disk > with 16 sectors, while on the PDP-11 you use a disk with 12 sectors. And, of > course, on the PDP-8 you have 256 12-bit words per sector, while on the > PDP-11 you have 256 16-bit words. > So it ends up being the same number of data bits per track. > > So the disk packs themselves had different designations. But the drive is > identical. > > As far as I know, there never was a RK08. The RK06 and RK07 were the last two > with that designation. Yes, my mistake. I was thinking of the RK05 class drive as used on a PDP-11, which apparently is "an RK05 drive and RK8 controller". paul
Re: Is tape dead?
On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 6:38 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > To the cloud, to the CLOUD!! There is no cloud, just other people's computers.
Re: 12" Floppy Disks
On 2015-09-15 20:25, Paul Koning wrote: On Sep 15, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2015-09-15 19:03, Paul Koning wrote: On Sep 15, 2015, at 12:28 PM, tony duell wrote: ... AFAIK the RK04 never existed. The RK02 and RK03 were re-badged Diablo Model 30 drives, the 02 being low density and the 03 high density. The RK05, very well known was a DEC drive of the same capacity, physical track format, etc as the RK03 (that is 'high density, about 2.5 MBytes on a disk). There was also an RK08, as I recall -- same platter as the RK11/RK05 but 16 sectors per track instead of 12. If I remember correctly, that same 16-sector platter was used in the IBM 360 model 44 which had an RK05 lookalike built into the CPU cabinet (on the side). I never used it; not sure if OS/360 supported it, that might have been PS/44 only. If yes, one wonders if it was fixed size sectors, a rather un-OS-like thing to do... Actually, the disk pack don't change the designation here. The RK05 was used both on PDP-8 and PDP-11 systems. On a PDP-8 you use a disk with 16 sectors, while on the PDP-11 you use a disk with 12 sectors. And, of course, on the PDP-8 you have 256 12-bit words per sector, while on the PDP-11 you have 256 16-bit words. So it ends up being the same number of data bits per track. So the disk packs themselves had different designations. But the drive is identical. As far as I know, there never was a RK08. The RK06 and RK07 were the last two with that designation. Yes, my mistake. I was thinking of the RK05 class drive as used on a PDP-11, which apparently is "an RK05 drive and RK8 controller". Yeah. Except I bet you meant "RK05 with an RK11 controller" above. Or else "as used on a PDP-8". :-) I like RK05. It's very reliable. And plenty for a PDP-8... Heck, OS/8 have to treat it as two disks, since it is so huge. :-) Johnny
Re: Is tape dead?
On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 4:56 PM, Richard Loken wrote: > These are LTO-5 > cartridges that can hold up to 30 Tbyte of compressed data and it can be > written on the tape with astonishing speed. That's one heck of a compression ratio, given that the native (uncompressed) capacity of an LTO-5 cartridge is 1.5 TB. Usually the vendors claim 2.5:1 compression, but obviously the actual compression achieved is entirely dependent on the entropy of the data. I'd be really surprised if the tape drive can stream at a high enough rate to store 30 Tbyte; the native (uncompressed) streaming rate is 140 MB/s, so for 20:1 compression it would have to transfer 2800 MB/s, which is 22 Gbit/s, more than even SAS or Fiber Channel can handle. With LTO and similar tape drives, if you can't maintain streaming, the performance goes to near zero, and you beat the heck out of the tape.
Re: Is tape dead?
On 09/15/2015 10:49 AM, Mouse wrote: If the police needed to even _consider_ doing that, they need to fire whoever decided they didn't need proper backups. (And whoever was responsible for the mistake that got it running there to begin with, either whoever decided to let it run or whoever decided to use tools that would let it run, depending.) I think a more important issue in backing up is "How many GENERATIONS to you keep around?" If you're just overwriting last month's backup, you could be propagating the effects of a malware or just plain error with no means of retrieval. My backups are currently done by connecting an external drive to a system, and booting with a live CD. Important stuff is also duplicated on several different machines--and when new technology obsoletes the old, carry the content forward on the newer medium. I back up my original work or valuable reference sources. No pictures or movies. When you consider how much *original* work anyone does during a lifetime, it's surprisingly little. Maybe that's changed today. I remember seeing a figure of 11 debugged lines of code per day per programmer as the average for a GSA programmer back in the 1980s. --- Related to the subject of backup devices, I've been seeing stupid-low prices on SSD using MLC flash. How reliable are these things? I'm still of the spinning rust persuasion, right now. --Chuck
Re: Is tape dead?
On Tue, 15 Sep 2015, Eric Smith wrote: > That's one heck of a compression ratio, given that the native > (uncompressed) capacity of an LTO-5 cartridge is 1.5 TB. Usually the > vendors claim 2.5:1 compression, but obviously the actual compression Of course it is 1.5Tbyte native and 3.0Tbyte compressed!!! Oh fuddle duddle1 I am going to have to send my brain back to the factory for refurbishing! How can I repeatedly drop a decimal place and never notice? -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father Athabasca University: but you have to earn Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" ** richar...@admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston
Re: Is tape dead?
On Tue, 15 Sep 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> Maybe that's changed today. I remember seeing a figure of 11 debugged
> lines of code per day per programmer as the average for a GSA programmer
> back in the 1980s.
I remeber that statistic from my youth, too. What kind of code? Fortran?
APL? Cobol? Assember? C?
Okay, here are eleven lines of C code:
#include
main()
{
int i;
for(i = 0; i < 5; i++)
{
fprintf(stderr, "%d. Hello world\n", i);
}
}
That is hardly the language for this kind of statistic.
--
Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father
Athabasca University: but you have to earn
Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'"
** richar...@admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston
Re: Is tape dead?
>> Maybe that's changed today. I remember seeing a figure of 11 >> debugged lines of code per day per programmer as the average for a >> GSA programmer back in the 1980s. > I remeber that statistic from my youth, too. What kind of code? > Fortran? APL? Cobol? Assember? C? I think the language is less important than what the code is doing. I can scribble out hundreds of lines a day when it's boilerplate or just a mechanical transcription of a well-burnt-in algorithm, but can easily drop down to the single-digit range when I'm struggling with a difficult problem. Nor do I have any reason to think I'm unusual in any respect here. Indeed, what is my lines-per-day figure when I spend all day struggling with a bug and end up fixing it by replacing four lines by two? Minus two lines per day? Note that the preceding paragraphs are entirely independent of what language I am (putatively) writing in. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
Re: 12" Floppy Disks
On 09/15/2015 03:39 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: Morning folks, I've been contacted by a teacher who's looking for any information about 12" floppies. Am I imagining that they really existed? I'm sure I've seen one or seen adverts for them, maybe at Bletchley Park. Others he's contacted think he's getting confused with 12" laser discs but I'm not so sure. Ask him if he remembers whether the disk had a jacket or not, that might help narrow it down. Was it read-write or read-only? Was it definitely digital data or perhaps something analog-but-with-a-computer-application?
Re: Is tape dead?
On 09/15/2015 11:49 AM, Richard Loken wrote: On Tue, 15 Sep 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: Maybe that's changed today. I remember seeing a figure of 11 debugged lines of code per day per programmer as the average for a GSA programmer back in the 1980s. I remeber that statistic from my youth, too. What kind of code? Fortran? APL? Cobol? Assember? C? Most likely COBOL. The GSA types were doing a lot of it back when I remember the number. Probably punched into cards. Could also have been RPG, or less likely FORTRAN. Back when I heard the statistic, I don't think that federal types had used C. Maybe JOVIAL or Autocoder... --Chuck
Re: FS: PDP-11/55
Reminder: final day of bidding is today! www.krten.com/~rk/museum/index.html Don't miss this opportunity to own a piece of history! Cheers, -RK On Sun, Aug 23, 2015 at 07:03:43PM -0400, Rob Krten wrote: > > Hi all, > > I have a PDP-11/55 for sale (Ottawa, Ontario, Canada). Bids open > until 2015 09 15, buyer to arrange shipping, I will have it wrapped > and ready to go. > > Please visit: > > www.krten.com/~rk/museum/index.html > > For pictures, detailed inventory and contact info. Sealed bids via > eamil please. Winner will be notified 2015 09 16, machine will be > ready to ship same day. Must be shipped / picked up no later than > 2015 10 09. > > Sold AS-IS / where is, untested, unpowered since received. > Comes with H960 rack and 2 side panels. > > Cheers, > -RK > > -- > Robert Krten > > Visit me at http://www.ironkrten.com > -- Robert Krten Visit me at http://www.ironkrten.com
Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
> I think a more important issue in backing up is "How many GENERATIONS > to you keep around?" For many purposes, that's an important consideration, yes. There's something (small) I back up weekly for which I keep the most recent seven backups, the oldest backup in each of the most recent twelve months, and the oldest backup in any year. I'm considering something of the sort for my house backups - live replication to a backup host, with a once-a-week freeze of the replica, storing past replica drives on a scheme somewhat like the above. > I back up my original work or valuable reference sources. No > pictures or movies. When you consider how much *original* work > anyone does during a lifetime, it's surprisingly little. Pictures and movies can be original work - perhaps not for you, certainly mostly not for me (I have a few original pictures, but only a few), but I know graphic designers and photographers who have probably produced at least a gigabyte of original pictures each by now. And people into video production > Related to the subject of backup devices, I've been seeing stupid-low > prices on SSD using MLC flash. How reliable are these things? I'm > still of the spinning rust persuasion, right now. So am I. I don't trust multi-level for anything more than passing a thumb drive to a friend or the like (where failure carries a very low cost) and I mostly don't trust wear-leveling algorithms yet, so I have little use for flash, certainly not for backups. Besides, even stupid-low SSD prices are still, in my admittedly limited experience, well above spinning-rust prices. The advantages of flash (random access and physical ruggedness) aren't very important for most backup applications, so price (and burnt-in technology, to some extent) win out for my purposes. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
Re: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
Pictures and movies can be original work - perhaps not for you, certainly mostly not for me (I have a few original pictures, but only a few), but I know graphic designers and photographers who have probably produced at least a gigabyte of original pictures each by now. And people into video production I have a HD video production rig that goes out to some geek events and I've used it in the past at stuff. The data generated is around 5GB per hour (H264 1080i) A few years ago I bought a BD-R drive from Samsung, and recorded 3 copies each of all the video from a few events that I wanted to put on the shelf. I verified the media was the metal stuff not the dye stuff (one is HTL, other is LTH, can't remember which is which.) 6 months later all of the BD-R discs were unreadable. I blamed the drive, RMA'ed with Samsung and confirmed with a friend on his Pioneer -- nope, the media somehow lost all the data. Memorex branded, was what you could find commercially local. The thing is a lot of it is rebadged Ritek and other vendors. Data lost. Not thrilled, and not sure I can trust that format after that issue. I did buy some Verbatim BD-R media but haven't used it yet. Pretty much keep everything on power consuming heat producing spinning disk. I've heard some horror stories with tape as well. When I worked at NASA the powderhorns we had originally had some tape drive that was like $100,000 each but really I guess was made from SVHS VCRs. STK literally had two drives on site all the time as the ones that were swapped in that week when two would fail. I think they converted it over to an IBM tape, can't remember what the SVHS based thing was but it was single reel spooled out into the deck, probably 9840 or something. I would cut multiple tapes of anything you care about! -- Ethan O'Toole
Re: Is tape dead?
On 9/15/2015 12:49 PM, Richard Loken wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Maybe that's changed today. I remember seeing a figure of 11 debugged
lines of code per day per programmer as the average for a GSA programmer
back in the 1980s.
I remeber that statistic from my youth, too. What kind of code? Fortran?
APL? Cobol? Assember? C?
Okay, here are eleven lines of C code:
#include
main()
{
int i;
for(i = 0; i < 5; i++)
{
fprintf(stderr, "%d. Hello world\n", i);
}
}
That is hardly the language for this kind of statistic.
I have just finished a 8 bit CPU in a FPGA...
Can you port those few lines of code for me?
Will get back to you tomorrow.
Ben.
PS: No pushes or pops from the stack, just indexing off S
would make this tricky. 2 byte ints.
foo(a,b,c) -> SUB S #8 params+return
-> ST A S...
-> JSR #foo
Re: Is tape dead?
On 15/09/15 19:27, Eric Smith wrote: > On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 6:38 PM, drlegendre . wrote: >> To the cloud, to the CLOUD!! > > There is no cloud, just other people's computers. "Real men don't make backups, they just put their stuff on an FTP and let the rest of the world mirror it..." -- Phil. classic...@philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/
Re: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 03:32:27PM -0400, et...@757.org wrote: > > I would cut multiple tapes of anything you care about! > It's not simply enough to cut multiple tapes (backups) of anything you care about --- you must periodically *read* and *verify* those tapes (backups), so that you can re-copy from a known good other copy if it is damaged. -- Thomas L. Kula | k...@tproa.net | http://kula.tproa.net/
Re: Is tape dead?
On 9/15/2015 2:02 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: On 15/09/15 19:27, Eric Smith wrote: On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 6:38 PM, drlegendre . wrote: To the cloud, to the CLOUD!! There is no cloud, just other people's computers. "Real men don't make backups, they just put their stuff on an FTP and let the rest of the world mirror it..." I wish more things could be mirrored. Look at the loss of knowledge when the FREE web providers dropped Service. Ben.
Re: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Thomas Kula wrote: > On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 03:32:27PM -0400, et...@757.org wrote: > > > > I would cut multiple tapes of anything you care about! > > > > It's not simply enough to cut multiple tapes (backups) of anything you > care about --- you must periodically *read* and *verify* those tapes > (backups), so that you can re-copy from a known good other copy if it is > damaged. > Same goes for disks that you park backups of other systems on. I've had several develop wonky spots that have put some of my older backups in danger. thankfully nothing critical, but I now have multiple disks with backups in different physical locations that I test on a regular basis... Warner
Re: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
On 09/15/2015 12:32 PM, et...@757.org wrote: Pictures and movies can be original work - perhaps not for you, certainly mostly not for me (I have a few original pictures, but only a few), but I know graphic designers and photographers who have probably produced at least a gigabyte of original pictures each by now. And people into video production I have a HD video production rig that goes out to some geek events and I've used it in the past at stuff. The data generated is around 5GB per hour (H264 1080i) I tend to think of pictures and movies as sui generis--they were perfectly well done in non-digital form, so I don't include them as "data" needing backup, but rather a special case of digital data masquerading as a simulacrum of analog information. Anyone remember the IBM "Photostore" setup at Lawrence Livermore? Enterprising programmers wrote tools to go through their files and "touch" them, lest they be "Photostored". In many cases, that meant "gone forever". -- In the case of spinning rust, what brand is most reliable? I've seen dreadful reports of DOA drives from Western Digital, fewer from Seagate, but I don't know about Hitachi, Samsung, etc. Up until now, I've confined my purchasing to 500GB drives on the hope that they're more reliable than the 3-5TB monsters. Is this a mistake? FWIW, my SA-4004 still works... --Chuck
Re: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
On 9/15/15 1:02 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: In the case of spinning rust, what brand is most reliable? I've seen dreadful reports of DOA drives from Western Digital, fewer from Seagate, but I don't know about Hitachi, Samsung, etc. CHM has been having good luck with 3 and 4tb (mostly) Hitachi and Toshiba (several hundred spinning). Seagate sucks. >50% drive failures (100 drives) in a year, and when they fail, they wedge the SAS expander they are on. Our IT people have been pulling them out as soon as the read errors start to appear in SMART. I have a handful of 5 and 6tb Toshibas which have been working well.
RE: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
> In the case of spinning rust, what brand is most reliable? I've seen > dreadful reports of DOA drives from Western Digital, fewer from > Seagate, > but I don't know about Hitachi, Samsung, etc. Caveat: my experience is as a home "power user" In my experience it all depends: I have a set of Seagate "consumer grade" SATA drives that are now nearly 10 years old that have been spinning in a RAID 6 almost 24x7 w/o issues. These were bought when Seagate offered a FIVE year warranty. I've also bought a number of the same type of drives in the past five years but with only a three year warranty and the failure rate on those have been abysmal! Now days I buy "enterprise class drives" (have a RAID 6 w/ 4TB Hitachi drives and RAID 5 setups w/ Seagate ES and Cheetah drives). They cost a pretty penny but the peace of mind is worth it. The also have better warranty service. I've never bothered w/ WD drives so I can't comment on those. If I could find a cheap tape backup solution I would love it but anything capable of reasonably backing up 20TB is well out of the consumer pocket book. -Ali
Re: Is tape dead?
On Tue, 15 Sep 2015, Mouse wrote: > I think the language is less important than what the code is doing. > > I can scribble out hundreds of lines a day when it's boilerplate or > just a mechanical transcription of a well-burnt-in algorithm, but can > easily drop down to the single-digit range when I'm struggling with a > difficult problem. Nor do I have any reason to think I'm unusual in > any respect here. Exactly! I remember that when I was young and foolish (now I am old and stupid) I dismissed that kind of number but it is not far wrong, I think the administative overhead is just as significant as the endless time spent searching for errors and typos or the time consumed discovering how to do something new and completely differant. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father Athabasca University: but you have to earn Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" ** richar...@admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston
Re: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
I know I'm a little late on this, but for something that small why not wrap it in bubble or whatever, put it in a gaylord strap it to a pallet and send it common carrier? On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 12:23 AM, Ali wrote: > I know this is a topic that comes up quite often and I have archived a > number of threads. However, I am still not finding what I need. The back > story is that I need to have a desk shipped across the country to me. The > desk measures 28" long, 27" wide, 35" tall and is ~125 pounds unpacked. > While it is possible to disassemble the desk I rather not. > > I've gotten quotes form a number of outfits as follows: > > 1. UPS: $1200 to pack/crate the desk and ship it. > 2. Craters and Freighters: $895 to wrap in PE Foam, Styrofoam, bubble wrap, > and box shipped door to door (i.e. not real freight). > 3. Freightquote: $475 if I palletize it/pack it myself (have to clarify if > this is door to door or do I have to drop off and pickup). > > Anybody else have other suggestions/recommendations? From what I understand > this desk is not that heavy (in the freighting scheme of things) and would > easily fit on one pallet and maybe even a half pallet. But I've never > shipped something via freight so maybe these are all accurate prices. Any > help/guidance is very much appreciated. > > Thanks. > > -Ali > >
Re: DEC Alpha 3000 Model 600
Now returned from vacation in southen Germany (warmer than the uk) and wading through 500+ emails. Well the good news is that 8.3 _will _install on the 3000 - 600. It boots every time now. The problem is its verry fussy about the CD drive you use. Borrowing a nearly new genuine DEC RRD drive from another alpha finally did it. Next job up is to key in the PAK for TCP/IP and pull the whole PAK .cmd file over and run it. Rod On 08/09/2015 09:58, Huw Davies wrote: I don’t have access to the same resources I used to, but a bell ringing in my head says that V8.3 might have been supported on the 3000/400 as an upgrade but not as an original install. ISTR that the problem was running out of space on the CD to support booting older systems. As I said, this comes from memory so I could well be wrong… Huw On 8 Sep 2015, at 12:52 am, Sean Caron wrote: I have a 3000/400 and I was never able to get 8.3 to install on it ... I don't think I was ever able to get it to even boot from the 8.3 media (with most recent firmware) ... I just dropped back to V7.3 and it works great. Best, Sean On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Mark Wickens wrote: I was quite surprised about 8.3 supporting the DEC 3000/600 AXP, however looking at the Quickspecs you appear to be right. http://www8.hp.com/h20195/v2/GetPDF.aspx%2Fc04154442.pdf However, I don't see any Turbochannel graphics adapters listed as supported, only the following: Graphics Options PBXGK ELSA/GLoria Synergy+ graphics option that provides 2D acceleration for supported PCI-based Alpha Workstations and Servers. PBXGD PowerStorm 300/500 graphics option that provides 3D acceleration or 3D acceleration with stereo viewing capabilities for supported PCI-based Alpha Workstations and Servers. PBXGF 3DLabs OXYGEN VX1 graphics option that provides 2D acceleration for supported PCI-based Alpha Workstations and Servers. PBXGG ATI RADEON 7500 2D and 3D, PCI and AGP graphics option So you might be out of luck on that front. Mark. On 07/09/15 10:16, Rod Smallwood wrote: I thought it might be nice to have a DEC based graphics work station. I had the Alpha, a high res monitor and the Hobbyist Media CD for ALPHAVMS 8,3. (yes the system supports 8.3) SFSG .. So CD in the drive and switch on. First a nice colour graphics demo/test. Then the nomal system level stuff. >>> prompt, enter SHO DEV and our CD drive shows as DKA400 just where it should be. So Boot DKA400: and off we go. After a while a menu appears from which you can load layered products you need. It gets part way through the load and falls over with a data error. The cd is a real bought and paid for Media CD and is not a copy. Before I do a lot of tedious emaling (HP have taken the Hobbyist program in house) has anybody successfully loaded an Alpha with ALPHA VMS 8.3? Regards Rod Huw Davies | e-mail: huw.dav...@kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne| "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia| air, the sky would be painted green"
Re: DEC Alpha 3000 Model 600
Yes, I found my DEC 3000 was very, very finicky about the CD-ROM drive as well ... fortunately persistence prevailed on my 3000/400 :O My experience is a little limited but the DEC 3000s do seem a little tricky to get to run right. Just gotta keep at it... Best, Sean On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 6:03 PM, Rod Smallwood < rodsmallwoo...@btinternet.com> wrote: > Now returned from vacation in southen Germany (warmer than the uk) and > wading through 500+ emails. > Well the good news is that 8.3 _will _install on the 3000 - 600. It boots > every time now. > The problem is its verry fussy about the CD drive you use. > Borrowing a nearly new genuine DEC RRD drive from another alpha finally > did it. > Next job up is to key in the PAK for TCP/IP and pull the whole PAK .cmd > file over and run it. > > Rod > > > > On 08/09/2015 09:58, Huw Davies wrote: > >> I don’t have access to the same resources I used to, but a bell ringing >> in my head says that V8.3 might have been supported on the 3000/400 as an >> upgrade but not as an original install. >> >> ISTR that the problem was running out of space on the CD to support >> booting older systems. >> >> As I said, this comes from memory so I could well be wrong… >> >> Huw >> >> On 8 Sep 2015, at 12:52 am, Sean Caron wrote: >>> >>> I have a 3000/400 and I was never able to get 8.3 to install on it ... I >>> don't think I was ever able to get it to even boot from the 8.3 media >>> (with >>> most recent firmware) ... I just dropped back to V7.3 and it works great. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Mark Wickens >>> wrote: >>> >>> I was quite surprised about 8.3 supporting the DEC 3000/600 AXP, however looking at the Quickspecs you appear to be right. http://www8.hp.com/h20195/v2/GetPDF.aspx%2Fc04154442.pdf However, I don't see any Turbochannel graphics adapters listed as supported, only the following: Graphics Options PBXGK ELSA/GLoria Synergy+ graphics option that provides 2D acceleration for supported PCI-based Alpha Workstations and Servers. PBXGD PowerStorm 300/500 graphics option that provides 3D acceleration or 3D acceleration with stereo viewing capabilities for supported PCI-based Alpha Workstations and Servers. PBXGF 3DLabs OXYGEN VX1 graphics option that provides 2D acceleration for supported PCI-based Alpha Workstations and Servers. PBXGG ATI RADEON 7500 2D and 3D, PCI and AGP graphics option So you might be out of luck on that front. Mark. On 07/09/15 10:16, Rod Smallwood wrote: I thought it might be nice to have a DEC based graphics work station. > I had the Alpha, a high res monitor and the Hobbyist Media CD for > ALPHAVMS 8,3. (yes the system supports 8.3) > SFSG .. So CD in the drive and switch on. First a nice colour graphics > demo/test. > Then the nomal system level stuff. >>> prompt, enter SHO DEV and our CD > drive shows as DKA400 just where it should be. > > So Boot DKA400: and off we go. After a while a menu appears from which > you can load layered products you need. > It gets part way through the load and falls over with a data error. The > cd is a real bought and paid for Media CD and is not a copy. > > Before I do a lot of tedious emaling (HP have taken the Hobbyist > program > in house) has anybody successfully loaded an Alpha with ALPHA VMS 8.3? > > Regards > Rod > > > > > Huw Davies | e-mail: huw.dav...@kerberos.davies.net.au >> Melbourne| "If soccer was meant to be played in the >> Australia| air, the sky would be painted green" >> >> >
Re: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
I ride herd on maybe three or four thousand Hitachi Ultrastar A7K{2,3,4}000
2 TB and 3 TB disks and they take a real pounding with the workload here
and they have just been fantastic ... great drives; very solid ... Also
used the WDC RE4 when Thailand got flooded out a few years ago and we were
in a pinch ... they've been pretty good as well ... not quite as good as
the Hitachis, but not awful (a moot point now that Hitachi owns WDC, I
suppose).
I don't trust Seagate quite to the same level however I think they're fine
for lighter-duty server or certainly home environments ... it's hard to
find a truly bad drive these days (although they are certainly out there
... the WDC 2 TB "Green" unit will always stand out in my mind).
Best,
Sean
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 4:54 PM, Ali wrote:
> > In the case of spinning rust, what brand is most reliable? I've seen
> > dreadful reports of DOA drives from Western Digital, fewer from
> > Seagate,
> > but I don't know about Hitachi, Samsung, etc.
>
> Caveat: my experience is as a home "power user"
>
> In my experience it all depends: I have a set of Seagate "consumer grade"
> SATA drives that are now nearly 10 years old that have been spinning in a
> RAID 6 almost 24x7 w/o issues. These were bought when Seagate offered a
> FIVE
> year warranty. I've also bought a number of the same type of drives in the
> past five years but with only a three year warranty and the failure rate on
> those have been abysmal!
>
> Now days I buy "enterprise class drives" (have a RAID 6 w/ 4TB Hitachi
> drives and RAID 5 setups w/ Seagate ES and Cheetah drives). They cost a
> pretty penny but the peace of mind is worth it. The also have better
> warranty service.
>
> I've never bothered w/ WD drives so I can't comment on those.
>
> If I could find a cheap tape backup solution I would love it but anything
> capable of reasonably backing up 20TB is well out of the consumer pocket
> book.
>
> -Ali
>
>
RE: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
> I know I'm a little late on this, but for something that small why not > wrap it in bubble or whatever, put it in a gaylord strap it to a pallet > and send it common carrier? > Paul, I am on the receiving end of this package so I was not shipping. The seller actually tried to ship FedEx but when he got there they told him packed it would be bigger and/or heavier then what they could ship. He also got a quote from UPS but they wanted $1200 to pack and ship the darn thing. One of the biggest issues we had was that this was the seller's (and frankly mine as well) first time shipping something so big. He was just not setup to package the thing or transport it. So he wanted to have someone come by and pickup, package, and ship. Eventually, he saw the need to pack it himself (and at least based on the photos he sent) he seemed to have done an excellent job. The desk is scheduled to arrive on Friday so the proof will be in the pudding. -Ali
Re: internet blocking problem ?
On 09/15/2015 12:11 PM, Gary Oliver wrote: I don't know if anyone got to the bottom of this blockage, but I noticed this morning that the site "members.iinet.net.au" is now accessible from my comcast (oregon) location. It's still broken elsewhere because few of the sites I visited that should be on the ring have working webring links, so the javascript inclusion must not yet be universally accessable... Yes, it appears that iinet either fixed what was wrong or got whoever else was responsible to get it fixed. It now works from my home and also from work, where both did not work consistently for several weeks. I don't know if I will find out WHAT was wrong, but apparently David Brooks made inquiries at iinet on Thursday or Friday, and somebody did something. I think it was VERY important that with all of your help, we were able to QUANTIFY that this was a widespread blockage. Thanks!!! Jon
Re: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems,
> Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 03:03:05 -0600 > From: Eric Smith > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, > incl. Intel ISIS > > Are you sure ISIS (one) didn't have disk support? I thought that was > shipped with the first Intel MDS-DOS floppy systems for use on the > MDS-800 in 1975. A 1975 edition of the MDS-DOS Operator's Manual is > listed among other Intel manuals at: > > http://www.intel-vintage.info/aboutme.htm Looked up the copyright registration for the manual and related items: A712678. MDS-DOS diskette operating system operator's manual 79 p. Add. ti: Intel diskette operating system microcomputer development System MDS-DOS operator's manual. (c) Intel Corporation; 22Dec75. A712670. Intel diskette operating system microcomputer development System MDS-DOS hardware reference manual. 1 v. (c) Intel Corporation; 15Dec75.
Re: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems,
On 9/15/2015 7:45 PM, Smith, Wayne wrote: Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 03:03:05 -0600 From: Eric Smith To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS Are you sure ISIS (one) didn't have disk support? I thought that was shipped with the first Intel MDS-DOS floppy systems for use on the MDS-800 in 1975. A 1975 edition of the MDS-DOS Operator's Manual is listed among other Intel manuals at: http://www.intel-vintage.info/aboutme.htm Looked up the copyright registration for the manual and related items: A712678. MDS-DOS diskette operating system operator's manual 79 p. Add. ti: Intel diskette operating system microcomputer development System MDS-DOS operator's manual. (c) Intel Corporation; 22Dec75. A712670. Intel diskette operating system microcomputer development System MDS-DOS hardware reference manual. 1 v. (c) Intel Corporation; 15Dec75. Here is a bit on CP/M. http://www.cpm.z80.de/source.html Ben.
Re: Is tape dead?
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 15/09/15 19:27, Eric Smith wrote: > > On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 6:38 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > >> To the cloud, to the CLOUD!! > > > > There is no cloud, just other people's computers. > > "Real men don't make backups, they just put their stuff on an FTP and > let the rest of the world mirror it..." "Can't sleep; cloud will eat me." -- Eric Christopherson
Re: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
I'm very used to first time shippers. I hope it works out well for you. On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 7:09 PM, Ali wrote: > > I know I'm a little late on this, but for something that small why not > > wrap it in bubble or whatever, put it in a gaylord strap it to a pallet > > and send it common carrier? > > > > Paul, > > I am on the receiving end of this package so I was not shipping. The > seller actually tried to ship FedEx but when he got there they told him > packed it would be bigger and/or heavier then what they could ship. He also > got a quote from UPS but they wanted $1200 to pack and ship the darn thing. > > One of the biggest issues we had was that this was the seller's (and > frankly mine as well) first time shipping something so big. He was just not > setup to package the thing or transport it. So he wanted to have someone > come by and pickup, package, and ship. Eventually, he saw the need to pack > it himself (and at least based on the photos he sent) he seemed to have > done an excellent job. The desk is scheduled to arrive on Friday so the > proof will be in the pudding. > > -Ali > >
Re: internet blocking problem ?
im in wpg canada and can see it through rogers mobile On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 8:25 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 09/15/2015 12:11 PM, Gary Oliver wrote: > >> I don't know if anyone got to the bottom of this blockage, but I noticed >> this morning that the site "members.iinet.net.au" is now accessible from >> my comcast (oregon) location. It's still broken elsewhere because few of >> the sites I visited that should be on the ring have working webring links, >> so the javascript inclusion must not yet be universally accessable... >> >> Yes, it appears that iinet either fixed what was wrong or got whoever > else was responsible to get it fixed. It now works from my home and also > from work, where both did not work consistently for several weeks. I don't > know if I will find out WHAT was wrong, but apparently David Brooks made > inquiries at iinet on Thursday or Friday, and somebody did something. > > I think it was VERY important that with all of your help, we were able to > QUANTIFY that this was a widespread blockage. > > Thanks!!! > > Jon >
Re: Is tape dead?
On 15 September 2015 at 13:52, Fred Cisin wrote: > Would anybody really trust the miscreants to provide the key after the > ransom is paid? > They actually do deliver. It's their "business model"; if they didn't deliver the keys to decrypt your data after paying them, then eventually word would get out that they don't and no one would pay them anymore. Plus, delivering the keys is pretty much an automated e-mail system probably. Regards, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request.
