Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[Colin Stanners]

I feel that as a society we tend to have the wrong approach to most pools -
using recirculated old water, spending time and money on chemicals such as
chlorine (that can cause a variety of annoying issues) to try to hide how
dirty the water is while not actually making it cleaner or healthier.

I enjoy hot springs, and loved visiting the traditional gender-seperated
onsens while on vacation in Japan - those usually originate from a flow of
natural hot water, no chemicals or recirculation needed. The water is kept
clean from the constant replacement flow and because all the users wash
thoroughly before use and don't bring their bathing suits. The variety of
included minerals have been mentioned often as having a number of positive
health effects.

If I was building a pool or hot-tub, preferably not using a city
water/sewer system, I'd look at simulating the above non-recirculated,
chemical-free system on-demand (to not waste the flowing water when the
system is not in use). That would be by installing a large tank for the
building water storage and having it able to quickly heat and release water
into the empty pool, on demand (e.g. the user calls up a web page on their
phone with a button "discharge & heat water tank into pool to prepare for
usage in 10min" - by the time that the user changes their clothes, the pool
will be ready.) The system would then keep a flow of fresh water into the
pool until the point where the pool is no longer in use, after that it
would let the pool drain until it is empty.


On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 8:57 PM Nate Burke  wrote:

> My sister in a former house had a large outdoor pool (20x40x8), Central
> Ohio.  I think she said they spent over $1000/month on chemicals during the
> summer.  When I'd go visit over the summer for a couple weeks, I spent
> several hours a week cleaning it.  And it takes a long time to top off the
> water lost to evaporation with a garden hose.  Not sure I'd get one myself
> without a cleaning/maintenance service, it could get out of had really
> quick.
>
> On 1/20/2020 7:36 PM, Jason McKemie wrote:
>
> A customer of mine had a retracting glass roof over the pool area, that
> was pretty nice. The salt water pools are lower maintenance and healthier
> from what my friends that have them have told me.
>
> On Monday, January 20, 2020,  wrote:
>
>> I have a friend that put it inside.
>> Another friend did a salt water pool due to supposedly low maintenance.
>> Not sure about that technology.
>> H.
>> I have an elevation and a patio area that is conducive to being an
>> outdoor extension of a pool deck.
>>
>>
>> *From:* Lewis Bergman
>> *Sent:* Monday, January 20, 2020 6:26 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools
>>
>> Definitely. Put it inside
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 6:22 PM Bill Prince  wrote:
>>
>>> Put a roof on it and keep your home theater and gym in there.
>>>
>>> When we had one, it was used more for friends and family than we did for
>>> ourselves. We don't have one here, and I'm fine with that.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> bp
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/20/2020 5:07 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
>>>
>>> Considering adding a pool to my home.
>>> Worth it?
>>>
>>> Desert Utah.
>>> Lots of blowing dust year around.
>>>
>>> Only 3-4 months of weather suitable for use.
>>> Would I use it much?
>>> I don’t use my home theater much.
>>> I don’t use my home gym much.
>>>
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
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Re: [AFMUG] In Utah, 24 Hours = 20 Hours

[Jay Weekley]

I used to work for a large fitness center and I occasionally locked the 
doors with someone inside though there was no alarm and they could 
simply walk out.  It's hard to check all the showers, steam rooms, 
sauna's, bathrooms, side halls, stair wells etc. The worst part was the 
jumpy house keeper encountering a member at 10:30 at night when she 
thought she was alone.


Nate Burke wrote:
https://abc7chicago.com/society/utah-man-gets-locked-inside-24-hour-fitness/5848277/ 





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Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[Ken Hohhof]

You just described a bathtub.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Colin Stanners
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 2:19 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

 

I feel that as a society we tend to have the wrong approach to most pools - 
using recirculated old water, spending time and money on chemicals such as 
chlorine (that can cause a variety of annoying issues) to try to hide how dirty 
the water is while not actually making it cleaner or healthier.

 

I enjoy hot springs, and loved visiting the traditional gender-seperated onsens 
while on vacation in Japan - those usually originate from a flow of natural hot 
water, no chemicals or recirculation needed. The water is kept clean from the 
constant replacement flow and because all the users wash thoroughly before use 
and don't bring their bathing suits. The variety of included minerals have been 
mentioned often as having a number of positive health effects.

 

If I was building a pool or hot-tub, preferably not using a city water/sewer 
system, I'd look at simulating the above non-recirculated, chemical-free system 
on-demand (to not waste the flowing water when the system is not in use). That 
would be by installing a large tank for the building water storage and having 
it able to quickly heat and release water into the empty pool, on demand (e.g. 
the user calls up a web page on their phone with a button "discharge & heat 
water tank into pool to prepare for usage in 10min" - by the time that the user 
changes their clothes, the pool will be ready.) The system would then keep a 
flow of fresh water into the pool until the point where the pool is no longer 
in use, after that it would let the pool drain until it is empty.

 

 

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 8:57 PM Nate Burke mailto:n...@blastcomm.com> > wrote:

My sister in a former house had a large outdoor pool (20x40x8), Central Ohio.  
I think she said they spent over $1000/month on chemicals during the summer.  
When I'd go visit over the summer for a couple weeks, I spent several hours a 
week cleaning it.  And it takes a long time to top off the water lost to 
evaporation with a garden hose.  Not sure I'd get one myself without a 
cleaning/maintenance service, it could get out of had really quick.  

On 1/20/2020 7:36 PM, Jason McKemie wrote:

A customer of mine had a retracting glass roof over the pool area, that was 
pretty nice. The salt water pools are lower maintenance and healthier from what 
my friends that have them have told me.

On Monday, January 20, 2020, mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com> > wrote:

I have a friend that put it inside.  

Another friend did a salt water pool due to supposedly low maintenance.  Not 
sure about that technology.  

H.  

I have an elevation and a patio area that is conducive to being an outdoor 
extension of a pool deck.  

 

 

From: Lewis Bergman 

Sent: Monday, January 20, 2020 6:26 PM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

 

Definitely. Put it inside

 

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 6:22 PM Bill Prince mailto:part15...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Put a roof on it and keep your home theater and gym in there.

When we had one, it was used more for friends and family than we did for 
ourselves. We don't have one here, and I'm fine with that.

 

bp

 

On 1/20/2020 5:07 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com   wrote:

Considering adding a pool to my home.  

Worth it?  

 

Desert Utah.  

Lots of blowing dust year around.  

 

Only 3-4 months of weather suitable for use.

Would I use it much?  

I don’t use my home theater much.  

I don’t use my home gym much.  

 

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Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[Colin Stanners]

Yes but spruced up and at scale. Like Facebook is just multiplayer,
spammier Microsoft Word.

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 8:14 AM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

> You just described a bathtub.
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Colin Stanners
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 21, 2020 2:19 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools
>
>
>
> I feel that as a society we tend to have the wrong approach to most pools
> - using recirculated old water, spending time and money on chemicals such
> as chlorine (that can cause a variety of annoying issues) to try to hide
> how dirty the water is while not actually making it cleaner or healthier.
>
>
>
> I enjoy hot springs, and loved visiting the traditional gender-seperated
> onsens while on vacation in Japan - those usually originate from a flow of
> natural hot water, no chemicals or recirculation needed. The water is kept
> clean from the constant replacement flow and because all the users wash
> thoroughly before use and don't bring their bathing suits. The variety of
> included minerals have been mentioned often as having a number of positive
> health effects.
>
>
>
> If I was building a pool or hot-tub, preferably not using a city
> water/sewer system, I'd look at simulating the above non-recirculated,
> chemical-free system on-demand (to not waste the flowing water when the
> system is not in use). That would be by installing a large tank for the
> building water storage and having it able to quickly heat and release water
> into the empty pool, on demand (e.g. the user calls up a web page on their
> phone with a button "discharge & heat water tank into pool to prepare for
> usage in 10min" - by the time that the user changes their clothes, the pool
> will be ready.) The system would then keep a flow of fresh water into the
> pool until the point where the pool is no longer in use, after that it
> would let the pool drain until it is empty.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 8:57 PM Nate Burke  wrote:
>
> My sister in a former house had a large outdoor pool (20x40x8), Central
> Ohio.  I think she said they spent over $1000/month on chemicals during the
> summer.  When I'd go visit over the summer for a couple weeks, I spent
> several hours a week cleaning it.  And it takes a long time to top off the
> water lost to evaporation with a garden hose.  Not sure I'd get one myself
> without a cleaning/maintenance service, it could get out of had really
> quick.
>
> On 1/20/2020 7:36 PM, Jason McKemie wrote:
>
> A customer of mine had a retracting glass roof over the pool area, that
> was pretty nice. The salt water pools are lower maintenance and healthier
> from what my friends that have them have told me.
>
> On Monday, January 20, 2020,  wrote:
>
> I have a friend that put it inside.
>
> Another friend did a salt water pool due to supposedly low maintenance.
> Not sure about that technology.
>
> H.
>
> I have an elevation and a patio area that is conducive to being an outdoor
> extension of a pool deck.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Lewis Bergman
>
> *Sent:* Monday, January 20, 2020 6:26 PM
>
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools
>
>
>
> Definitely. Put it inside
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 6:22 PM Bill Prince  wrote:
>
> Put a roof on it and keep your home theater and gym in there.
>
> When we had one, it was used more for friends and family than we did for
> ourselves. We don't have one here, and I'm fine with that.
>
>
>
> bp
>
> 
>
>
>
> On 1/20/2020 5:07 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
>
> Considering adding a pool to my home.
>
> Worth it?
>
>
>
> Desert Utah.
>
> Lots of blowing dust year around.
>
>
>
> Only 3-4 months of weather suitable for use.
>
> Would I use it much?
>
> I don’t use my home theater much.
>
> I don’t use my home gym much.
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
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>
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>
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>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[Ken Hohhof]

Facebook is like a hot tub.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Colin Stanners
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 9:01 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

 

Yes but spruced up and at scale. Like Facebook is just multiplayer, spammier 
Microsoft Word.

 

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 8:14 AM Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com> > wrote:

You just described a bathtub.

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Colin Stanners
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 2:19 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

 

I feel that as a society we tend to have the wrong approach to most pools - 
using recirculated old water, spending time and money on chemicals such as 
chlorine (that can cause a variety of annoying issues) to try to hide how dirty 
the water is while not actually making it cleaner or healthier.

 

I enjoy hot springs, and loved visiting the traditional gender-seperated onsens 
while on vacation in Japan - those usually originate from a flow of natural hot 
water, no chemicals or recirculation needed. The water is kept clean from the 
constant replacement flow and because all the users wash thoroughly before use 
and don't bring their bathing suits. The variety of included minerals have been 
mentioned often as having a number of positive health effects.

 

If I was building a pool or hot-tub, preferably not using a city water/sewer 
system, I'd look at simulating the above non-recirculated, chemical-free system 
on-demand (to not waste the flowing water when the system is not in use). That 
would be by installing a large tank for the building water storage and having 
it able to quickly heat and release water into the empty pool, on demand (e.g. 
the user calls up a web page on their phone with a button "discharge & heat 
water tank into pool to prepare for usage in 10min" - by the time that the user 
changes their clothes, the pool will be ready.) The system would then keep a 
flow of fresh water into the pool until the point where the pool is no longer 
in use, after that it would let the pool drain until it is empty.

 

 

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 8:57 PM Nate Burke mailto:n...@blastcomm.com> > wrote:

My sister in a former house had a large outdoor pool (20x40x8), Central Ohio.  
I think she said they spent over $1000/month on chemicals during the summer.  
When I'd go visit over the summer for a couple weeks, I spent several hours a 
week cleaning it.  And it takes a long time to top off the water lost to 
evaporation with a garden hose.  Not sure I'd get one myself without a 
cleaning/maintenance service, it could get out of had really quick.  

On 1/20/2020 7:36 PM, Jason McKemie wrote:

A customer of mine had a retracting glass roof over the pool area, that was 
pretty nice. The salt water pools are lower maintenance and healthier from what 
my friends that have them have told me.

On Monday, January 20, 2020, mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com> > wrote:

I have a friend that put it inside.  

Another friend did a salt water pool due to supposedly low maintenance.  Not 
sure about that technology.  

H.  

I have an elevation and a patio area that is conducive to being an outdoor 
extension of a pool deck.  

 

 

From: Lewis Bergman 

Sent: Monday, January 20, 2020 6:26 PM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

 

Definitely. Put it inside

 

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 6:22 PM Bill Prince mailto:part15...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Put a roof on it and keep your home theater and gym in there.

When we had one, it was used more for friends and family than we did for 
ourselves. We don't have one here, and I'm fine with that.

 

bp

 

On 1/20/2020 5:07 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com   wrote:

Considering adding a pool to my home.  

Worth it?  

 

Desert Utah.  

Lots of blowing dust year around.  

 

Only 3-4 months of weather suitable for use.

Would I use it much?  

I don’t use my home theater much.  

I don’t use my home gym much.  

 

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Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[Mike Hammett]

It's very easy to get duped into spending too much on chemicals. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Nate Burke"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2020 8:56:20 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools 

My sister in a former house had a large outdoor pool (20x40x8), Central Ohio. I 
think she said they spent over $1000/month on chemicals during the summer. When 
I'd go visit over the summer for a couple weeks, I spent several hours a week 
cleaning it. And it takes a long time to top off the water lost to evaporation 
with a garden hose. Not sure I'd get one myself without a cleaning/maintenance 
service, it could get out of had really quick. 


On 1/20/2020 7:36 PM, Jason McKemie wrote: 


A customer of mine had a retracting glass roof over the pool area, that was 
pretty nice. The salt water pools are lower maintenance and healthier from what 
my friends that have them have told me. 

On Monday, January 20, 2020, < ch...@wbmfg.com > wrote: 






I have a friend that put it inside. 
Another friend did a salt water pool due to supposedly low maintenance. Not 
sure about that technology. 
H. 
I have an elevation and a patio area that is conducive to being an outdoor 
extension of a pool deck. 





From: Lewis Bergman 
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2020 6:26 PM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools 


Definitely. Put it inside 


On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 6:22 PM Bill Prince < part15...@gmail.com > wrote: 




Put a roof on it and keep your home theater and gym in there. 
When we had one, it was used more for friends and family than we did for 
ourselves. We don't have one here, and I'm fine with that. 
bp
 
On 1/20/2020 5:07 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote: 





Considering adding a pool to my home. 
Worth it? 

Desert Utah. 
Lots of blowing dust year around. 

Only 3-4 months of weather suitable for use. 
Would I use it much? 
I don’t use my home theater much. 
I don’t use my home gym much. 


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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Mike Hammett]

Any network built by an idiot is garbage, no matter what technology they use. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Matt Hoppes"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" , "Ken Hohhof" 
 
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2020 2:37:08 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] The Future 

Well... except that I'd argue fiber isn't that "future proof". 

I purchased an ISP that came with an outdoor fiber network. That 
outdoor network was MM with repeaters ever few blocks, because well MM. 

That entire network is useless. so... I submit that as Exhibit 
A, your honor. 

On 1/19/20 10:31 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote: 
> I think that is the right answer, but the government seems to have fallen out 
> of love with fiber and is smitten with mobile wireless, which in their future 
> will replace everything. 
> 
> The right answer may not prevail, in the face of power and money. 
> 
> Once upon a time we focused on 20 and 30 year infrastructure solutions. Look 
> at how easily you can upgrade a fiber network. Then look at what it took to 
> go from 2G to 3G to 4G to 5G, and imagine having to do that for 20-30 more 
> years, through 6G and 7G and 8G and beyond. Where all that spectrum will come 
> from, who knows. No similar problem exists with fiber. 
> 
> The ironic thing is that the biggest stumbling block to rural millimeter wave 
> based 5G would be running fiber to all those towers. If you're going to run 
> fiber to everybody's personal cell tower (because the houses are half a mile 
> apart), why not just run the fiber to their house. 
> 
> 
> -Original Message- 
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Adam Moffett 
> Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2020 8:35 PM 
> To: af@af.afmug.com 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] The Future 
> 
> Right now on fiber we're blinking the light on and off like the people a 
> hundred years ago sending morse code by blinking a radio on and off. 
> 
> Right now you can run 9600 gbps with commercial off the shelf hardware, 
> blinking 96 different colored lights. Some day you'll have one set of optics 
> running all those wavelengths at the same time and modulating them all. Then 
> that one fiber will carry tens of thousands of gigabits per second. 
> 
> I don't know if that's "future proof" enough for the long haul, but it ought 
> to be good enough for the next 30 years I should think. 
> 
> -Adam 
> 
> 
> On 1/19/2020 9:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote: 
>> I don’t know why, but this evening got me thinking about broadband delivery 
>> over the past 30 years and the future of broadband. 
>> 
>> First we had nothing, then along came dial-up and that was amazing and many 
>> companies sprung up offering the service. Giants like AOL and Prodigy. 
>> 
>> Then DSL and Cable came along as well as wireless and dial-up has all but 
>> died. 
>> 
>> Now DSL is basically dead, cable and wireless have gone through several 
>> iterations and we are seeing a push to fiber. 
>> 
>> What’s the possibility in the next 10 years cable and wireless will be dead 
>> technologies with fiber at the fore front? Possibly. 
>> 
>> But then. is fiber really future proof? We are talking about investing 
>> hundreds of millions into fiber infrastructure, because it’s “the future”. 
>> But is it? 
>> 
>> So far every technology delivery mechanism to date has become obsolete in as 
>> little as 6-10 years. 
> 
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[Adam Moffett]

In a month my parents might go through a handful of chlorine tablets and 
a box of baking soda  Theirs is only a 25' round pool, but the cost must 
be linear with volume I would think.  They added shock in the 
spring.which I think is just stronger chlorine.



It's hard to imagine $1000/month.


They do have to clean it a fair bit because seeds, leaves, and pine 
needles blow in from the nearby woods.




On 1/21/2020 10:11 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:

It's very easy to get duped into spending too much on chemicals.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 





*From: *"Nate Burke" 
*To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
*Sent: *Monday, January 20, 2020 8:56:20 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

My sister in a former house had a large outdoor pool (20x40x8), 
Central Ohio.  I think she said they spent over $1000/month on 
chemicals during the summer.  When I'd go visit over the summer for a 
couple weeks, I spent several hours a week cleaning it.  And it takes 
a long time to top off the water lost to evaporation with a garden 
hose.  Not sure I'd get one myself without a cleaning/maintenance 
service, it could get out of had really quick.


On 1/20/2020 7:36 PM, Jason McKemie wrote:

A customer of mine had a retracting glass roof over the pool area,
that was pretty nice. The salt water pools are lower maintenance
and healthier from what my friends that have them have told me.

On Monday, January 20, 2020, mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:

I have a friend that put it inside.
Another friend did a salt water pool due to supposedly low
maintenance.  Not sure about that technology.
H.
I have an elevation and a patio area that is conducive to
being an outdoor extension of a pool deck.
*From:* Lewis Bergman
*Sent:* Monday, January 20, 2020 6:26 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools
Definitely. Put it inside
On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 6:22 PM Bill Prince
 wrote:

Put a roof on it and keep your home theater and gym in there.

When we had one, it was used more for friends and family
than we did for ourselves. We don't have one here, and I'm
fine with that.

bp


On 1/20/2020 5:07 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

Considering adding a pool to my home.
Worth it?
Desert Utah.
Lots of blowing dust year around.
Only 3-4 months of weather suitable for use.
Would I use it much?
I don’t use my home theater much.
I don’t use my home gym much.

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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Mike Hammett]

and they'll suck just as bad as their current networks do. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Gino A. Villarini"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" , "Mathew Howard" 
 
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2020 9:40:47 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] The Future 



Mobile ops will get into the “Home Connectivity” game and will offer 
mobile/home bundles 

Gino Villarini 
Founder/President 
@gvillarini 
t: 787.273.4143 Ext. 204 
m: 

aeronet-logoinc500  fb-logo insta-logo  in-logo tw-logo yt-logo 
www.aeronetpr.com | Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, PR 00968 

From: AF  on behalf of Matt Hoppes 
 
Reply-To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group  
Date: Monday, January 20, 2020 at 11:27 AM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group , Mathew Howard 
 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] The Future 


Do you actually think we're ever going to see unlimited 5G service? 

What about home security cameras, security systems, all the connected 
home devices? I certainly don't want to pay a monthly fee to connect 
all of them together. 

On 1/20/20 10:18 AM, Mathew Howard wrote: 
> That's exactly what I was thinking reading this thread. Fiber isn't 
> likely to be surpassed by anything else anytime soon, but the need for 
> having any kind of a traditional wired connection to the home could very 
> well disappear in the not too distant future. Fiber is still going to be 
> needed to make the 5G, 6G or whatever technologies work, but if every 
> device has it's own unlimited 5G wireless connection, not many people 
> are going to feel the need to pay for home connection. But whether that 
> can actually be made to work (in both a practical and technical sense) 
> remains to be seen. 
> 
> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 8:28 AM Gino A. Villarini  > wrote: 
> 
> Fiber is future proof but not human proof.. 
> 
> __ __ 
> 
> As the users continue to gravitate more to handheld devices, the 
> actual value of fiber as a last mile connection for the end user is 
> a sliding graph towards 0. 
> 
> __ __ 
> 
> Wireless connectivity will continue expand in different iterations 
> like 5G, 6G and other upcoming technologies like LTTH and LTTD (LEO 
> to the home and LEO to the Device). <- I just coined both terms!  
> 
> __ __ 
> 
> *GinoVillarini 
> *Founder/President 
> @gvillarini 
> t: 787.273.4143 Ext. 204 
> m: 
> 
> aeronet-logo < http://www.aeronetpr.com/ > inc500 
> < https://www.inc.com/profile/aeronet > fb-logo 
> < https://www.facebook.com/aeronetpr/ > insta-logo 
> < https://www.instagram.com/aeronetpr/?hl=en > in-logo 
> < https://www.linkedin.com/company/aeronet-broadband-corp > tw-logo 
> < 
> https://twitter.com/AeroNetPR?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
>  > 
> yt-logo < https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr2Q9WBrAYVm3Fn970Jd6VA > 
> 
> www.aeronetpr.com < http://www.aeronetpr.com > | Metro Office Park #18 
> Suite 304 Guaynabo, PR 00968 
> 
> *From: *AF  > on behalf of Matt Hoppes 
>  > 
> *Reply-To: *AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group  > 
> *Date: *Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 10:30 PM 
> *To: *"af@af.afmug.com "  > 
> *Subject: *[AFMUG] The Future 
> 
> __ __ 
> 
> I don’t know why, but this evening got me thinking about broadband 
> delivery over the past 30 years and the future of broadband. 
> 
> First we had nothing, then along came dial-up and that was amazing 
> and many companies sprung up offering the service. Giants like AOL 
> and Prodigy. 
> 
> Then DSL and Cable came along as well as wireless and dial-up has 
> all but died. 
> 
> Now DSL is basically dead, cable and wireless have gone through 
> several iterations and we are seeing a push to fiber. 
> 
> What’s the possibility in the next 10 years cable and wireless will 
> be dead technologies with fiber at the fore front? Possibly. 
> 
> But then. is fiber really future proof? We are talking about 
> investing hundreds of millions into fiber infrastructure, because 
> it’s “the future”. But is it? 
> 
> So far every technology delivery mechanism to date has become 
> obsolete in as little as 6-10 years. 
> -- 
> AF mailing list 
> AF@af.afmug.com  
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 
> 
>  
> 
> -- 
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> 
> 

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Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[Mike Hammett]

The tablets are usually bad as they raise your CYA level. 

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.troublefreepool.poolmath&hl=en
 
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/pool-math-by-troublefreepool/id1228819359 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Adam Moffett"  
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 9:18:03 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools 


In a month my parents might go through a handful of chlorine tablets and a box 
of baking soda Theirs is only a 25' round pool, but the cost must be linear 
with volume I would think. They added shock in the spring.which I think is 
just stronger chlorine. 



It's hard to imagine $1000/month. 



They do have to clean it a fair bit because seeds, leaves, and pine needles 
blow in from the nearby woods. 





On 1/21/2020 10:11 AM, Mike Hammett wrote: 



It's very easy to get duped into spending too much on chemicals. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Nate Burke"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2020 8:56:20 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools 

My sister in a former house had a large outdoor pool (20x40x8), Central Ohio. I 
think she said they spent over $1000/month on chemicals during the summer. When 
I'd go visit over the summer for a couple weeks, I spent several hours a week 
cleaning it. And it takes a long time to top off the water lost to evaporation 
with a garden hose. Not sure I'd get one myself without a cleaning/maintenance 
service, it could get out of had really quick. 


On 1/20/2020 7:36 PM, Jason McKemie wrote: 


A customer of mine had a retracting glass roof over the pool area, that was 
pretty nice. The salt water pools are lower maintenance and healthier from what 
my friends that have them have told me. 

On Monday, January 20, 2020, < ch...@wbmfg.com > wrote: 






I have a friend that put it inside. 
Another friend did a salt water pool due to supposedly low maintenance. Not 
sure about that technology. 
H. 
I have an elevation and a patio area that is conducive to being an outdoor 
extension of a pool deck. 





From: Lewis Bergman 
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2020 6:26 PM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools 


Definitely. Put it inside 


On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 6:22 PM Bill Prince < part15...@gmail.com > wrote: 




Put a roof on it and keep your home theater and gym in there. 
When we had one, it was used more for friends and family than we did for 
ourselves. We don't have one here, and I'm fine with that. 
bp
 
On 1/20/2020 5:07 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote: 





Considering adding a pool to my home. 
Worth it? 

Desert Utah. 
Lots of blowing dust year around. 

Only 3-4 months of weather suitable for use. 
Would I use it much? 
I don’t use my home theater much. 
I don’t use my home gym much. 


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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Dennis Burgess via AF]

You would think a upgrade to SM would be simple though, unless they did not put 
tubes in.


[LTI-Full_175px]
Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium ePMP Certified
Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
Office: 314-735-0270  Website: 
http://www.linktechs.net
Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com

From: AF  On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 9:20 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] The Future

and they'll suck just as bad as their current networks do.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing 
Solutions
[https://imsva91-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.ics%2dil.com%2fimages%2ffbicon.png%5d&umid=DA27A9DC-9CA8-3A05-8EED-666D23F88B21&auth=079c058f437b7c6303d36c6513e5e8848d0c5ac4-d81689b13605fd3d1f9e2eff8eca6e18c8811267[https://imsva91-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.ics%2dil.com%2fimages%2fgoogleicon.png%5d&umid=DA27A9DC-9CA8-3A05-8EED-666D23F88B21&auth=079c058f437b7c6303d36c6513e5e8848d0c5ac4-2cce5d1ef75b4443cc03b2f004caf8b41c8bbd2f[https://imsva91-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.ics%2dil.com%2fimages%2flinkedinicon.png%5d&umid=DA27A9DC-9CA8-3A05-8EED-666D23F88B21&auth=079c058f437b7c6303d36c6513e5e8848d0c5ac4-c8aa80727058ae7b44c4f66f633bdbf782540790[https://imsva91-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.ics%2dil.com%2fimages%2ftwittericon.png%5d&umid=DA27A9DC-9CA8-3A05-8EED-666D23F88B21&auth=079c058f437b7c6303d36c6513e5e8848d0c5ac4-a4820f5156f38f2acc34437da11458007ab5b93f
Midwest Internet Exchange
[https://imsva91-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.ics%2dil.com%2fimages%2ffbicon.png%5d&umid=DA27A9DC-9CA8-3A05-8EED-666D23F88B21&auth=079c058f437b7c6303d36c6513e5e8848d0c5ac4-d81689b13605fd3d1f9e2eff8eca6e18c8811267[https://imsva91-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.ics%2dil.com%2fimages%2flinkedinicon.png%5d&umid=DA27A9DC-9CA8-3A05-8EED-666D23F88B21&auth=079c058f437b7c6303d36c6513e5e8848d0c5ac4-c8aa80727058ae7b44c4f66f633bdbf782540790[https://imsva91-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.ics%2dil.com%2fimages%2ftwittericon.png%5d&umid=DA27A9DC-9CA8-3A05-8EED-666D23F88B21&auth=079c058f437b7c6303d36c6513e5e8848d0c5ac4-a4820f5156f38f2acc34437da11458007ab5b93f
The Brothers WISP
[https://imsva91-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.ics%2dil.com%2fimages%2ffbicon.png%5d&umid=DA27A9DC-9CA8-3A05-8EED-666D23F88B21&auth=079c058f437b7c6303d36c6513e5e8848d0c5ac4-d81689b13605fd3d1f9e2eff8eca6e18c8811267[https://imsva91-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.ics%2dil.com%2fimages%2fyoutubeicon.png%5d&umid=DA27A9DC-9CA8-3A05-8EED-666D23F88B21&auth=079c058f437b7c6303d36c6513e5e8848d0c5ac4-a2c312b89fb5df06e1c677bd030ec9ba7404b3dc




From: "Gino A. Villarini" mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com>>
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>, "Mathew Howard" 
mailto:mhoward...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2020 9:40:47 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] The Future
Mobile ops  will get into the “Home Connectivity” game and will offer 
mobile/home bundles


Gino Villarini
Founder/President
@gvillarini
t: 787.273.4143 Ext. 204
m:
[aeronet-logo]

[inc500]

[fb-logo]

[insta-logo]

[in-logo]

[tw-logo]

[yt-logo]


www.aeronetpr.com | Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 
Guaynabo, PR 00968
From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> on behalf of 
Matt Hoppes 
mailto:mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net>>
Reply-To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Date: Monday, January 20, 2020 at 11:27 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mail

Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[dave via AF]

Around here the above ground pool doesnt  de-value the property due to 
possible removal if wanted.

In ground pools here sell for much less than a home without one here.
There are some really nice above ground systems but the only thing I 
would be concerned with is the decking or
construction to go with it because it would induce more maint unless you 
went with composite 100%




On 1/20/20 9:03 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:


Neighbor’s house finally sold.  In ground heated saltwater pool, 
according to the MLS listing.  I don’t know about lower maintenance.  
It seemed like they had the pool service truck there on a weekly 
basis.  Plus 2 days in fall to prep it for winter.


https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/il/glen-ellyn/632-north-main-st/pid_30963397/

(that’s my much more modest house visible at the right of the photo)

Maybe a pool table instead of a pool?

Of course, come to think of it, a customer recently bought a big house 
where the only thing the previous owner left behind was the pool 
table.  I guess those things are a bitch to move.


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Jason McKemie
*Sent:* Monday, January 20, 2020 7:36 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

A customer of mine had a retracting glass roof over the pool area, 
that was pretty nice. The salt water pools are lower maintenance and 
healthier from what my friends that have them have told me.


On Monday, January 20, 2020, > wrote:


I have a friend that put it inside.

Another friend did a salt water pool due to supposedly low
maintenance.  Not sure about that technology.

H.

I have an elevation and a patio area that is conducive to being an
outdoor extension of a pool deck.

*From:*Lewis Bergman

*Sent:*Monday, January 20, 2020 6:26 PM

*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

Definitely. Put it inside

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 6:22 PM Bill Prince mailto:part15...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Put a roof on it and keep your home theater and gym in there.

When we had one, it was used more for friends and family than
we did for ourselves. We don't have one here, and I'm fine
with that.

bp



On 1/20/2020 5:07 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com 
wrote:

Considering adding a pool to my home.

Worth it?

Desert Utah.

Lots of blowing dust year around.

Only 3-4 months of weather suitable for use.

Would I use it much?

I don’t use my home theater much.

I don’t use my home gym much.

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http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[dave via AF]

Actually seen that done LOL!


On 1/20/20 12:43 PM, Mark - Myakka Technologies wrote:

Seth,

That's  the  equivalent  of  putting  a Linksys router in a Tupperware
container and calling yourself a WISP.

--
Best regards,
  Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.Myakka.com

--

Monday, January 20, 2020, 1:27:45 PM, you wrote:

SM> On 1/20/20 12:37 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:

I purchased an ISP that came with an outdoor fiber network.  That
outdoor network was MM with repeaters ever few blocks, because well MM.


SM> Multimode outdoor? Why would anyone do that?

SM> SMF fiber from the 90's is still as capable as new SMF fiber today.




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Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[can...@believewireless.net]

A friend of mine owns a company that does nothing but remove in-ground
pools.

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:44 AM dave via AF  wrote:

> Around here the above ground pool doesnt  de-value the property due to
> possible removal if wanted.
> In ground pools here sell for much less than a home without one here.
> There are some really nice above ground systems but the only thing I would
> be concerned with is the decking or
> construction to go with it because it would induce more maint unless you
> went with composite 100%
>
>
>
> On 1/20/20 9:03 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
>
> Neighbor’s house finally sold.  In ground heated saltwater pool, according
> to the MLS listing.  I don’t know about lower maintenance.  It seemed like
> they had the pool service truck there on a weekly basis.  Plus 2 days in
> fall to prep it for winter.
>
>
>
>
> https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/il/glen-ellyn/632-north-main-st/pid_30963397/
>
>
>
> (that’s my much more modest house visible at the right of the photo)
>
>
>
> Maybe a pool table instead of a pool?
>
>
>
> Of course, come to think of it, a customer recently bought a big house
> where the only thing the previous owner left behind was the pool table.  I
> guess those things are a bitch to move.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF   *On Behalf
> Of *Jason McKemie
> *Sent:* Monday, January 20, 2020 7:36 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group  
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools
>
>
>
> A customer of mine had a retracting glass roof over the pool area, that
> was pretty nice. The salt water pools are lower maintenance and healthier
> from what my friends that have them have told me.
>
> On Monday, January 20, 2020,  wrote:
>
> I have a friend that put it inside.
>
> Another friend did a salt water pool due to supposedly low maintenance.
> Not sure about that technology.
>
> H.
>
> I have an elevation and a patio area that is conducive to being an outdoor
> extension of a pool deck.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Lewis Bergman
>
> *Sent:* Monday, January 20, 2020 6:26 PM
>
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools
>
>
>
> Definitely. Put it inside
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 6:22 PM Bill Prince  wrote:
>
> Put a roof on it and keep your home theater and gym in there.
>
> When we had one, it was used more for friends and family than we did for
> ourselves. We don't have one here, and I'm fine with that.
>
>
>
> bp
>
> 
>
>
>
> On 1/20/2020 5:07 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
>
> Considering adding a pool to my home.
>
> Worth it?
>
>
>
> Desert Utah.
>
> Lots of blowing dust year around.
>
>
>
> Only 3-4 months of weather suitable for use.
>
> Would I use it much?
>
> I don’t use my home theater much.
>
> I don’t use my home gym much.
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
>
> --
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> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
>
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[Ken Hohhof]

Around here at least you are required to have a fence around a pool, so kids 
don’t wander in and drown I assume.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of can...@believewireless.net
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 9:47 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

 

A friend of mine owns a company that does nothing but remove in-ground pools.

 

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:44 AM dave via AF mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > wrote:

Around here the above ground pool doesnt  de-value the property due to possible 
removal if wanted. 
In ground pools here sell for much less than a home without one here. 
There are some really nice above ground systems but the only thing I would be 
concerned with is the decking or
construction to go with it because it would induce more maint unless you went 
with composite 100%






On 1/20/20 9:03 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

Neighbor’s house finally sold.  In ground heated saltwater pool, according to 
the MLS listing.  I don’t know about lower maintenance.  It seemed like they 
had the pool service truck there on a weekly basis.  Plus 2 days in fall to 
prep it for winter.

 

https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/il/glen-ellyn/632-north-main-st/pid_30963397/

 

(that’s my much more modest house visible at the right of the photo)

 

Maybe a pool table instead of a pool?

 

Of course, come to think of it, a customer recently bought a big house where 
the only thing the previous owner left behind was the pool table.  I guess 
those things are a bitch to move.

 

 

From: AF    On Behalf 
Of Jason McKemie
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2020 7:36 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group   
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

 

A customer of mine had a retracting glass roof over the pool area, that was 
pretty nice. The salt water pools are lower maintenance and healthier from what 
my friends that have them have told me.

On Monday, January 20, 2020, mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com> > wrote:

I have a friend that put it inside.  

Another friend did a salt water pool due to supposedly low maintenance.  Not 
sure about that technology.  

H.  

I have an elevation and a patio area that is conducive to being an outdoor 
extension of a pool deck.  

 

 

From: Lewis Bergman 

Sent: Monday, January 20, 2020 6:26 PM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

 

Definitely. Put it inside

 

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 6:22 PM Bill Prince mailto:part15...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Put a roof on it and keep your home theater and gym in there.

When we had one, it was used more for friends and family than we did for 
ourselves. We don't have one here, and I'm fine with that.

 

bp

 

On 1/20/2020 5:07 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com   wrote:

Considering adding a pool to my home.  

Worth it?  

 

Desert Utah.  

Lots of blowing dust year around.  

 

Only 3-4 months of weather suitable for use.

Would I use it much?  

I don’t use my home theater much.  

I don’t use my home gym much.  

 

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  _  


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Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[Bill Prince]

In many places a pool is considered an "attractive hazard", and those 
areas require secure fencing around the pool area.



bp


On 1/21/2020 8:12 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
Around here at least you are required to have a fence around a pool, 
so kids don’t wander in and drown I assume.


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Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[Mark - Myakka Technologies]

Title: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools


In FL it is an unwritten rule every house should have an in ground pool.  We have had one for 20+ years.  I do the salt deal.  Really like it.  Not very much maintenance.  Of course we don't have to winterize and with the solar heaters, we get a good 9 months of use.  We had some of our family from the mid-west using it when they were down for Thanksgiving.  When the kids were younger it would be used every day during the summer.  Now my wife will use it about 4 days a week for low impact exercise when it is warm enough. 

All that being said, I would never rip it out of the ground.  With just a bit of modification, it would make a great koi pond.


--
Best regards,
 Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.Myakka.com

--

Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 10:46:45 AM, you wrote:





A friend of mine owns a company that does nothing but remove in-ground pools.

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:44 AM dave via AF  wrote:




Around here the above ground pool doesnt  de-value the property due to possible removal if wanted. 
In ground pools here sell for much less than a home without one here. 
There are some really nice above ground systems but the only thing I would be concerned with is the decking or
construction to go with it because it would induce more maint unless you went with composite 100%




On 1/20/20 9:03 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:




Neighbor’s house finally sold.  In ground heated saltwater pool, according to the MLS listing.  I don’t know about lower maintenance.  It seemed like they had the pool service truck there on a weekly basis.  Plus 2 days in fall to prep it for winter.
 
https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/il/glen-ellyn/632-north-main-st/pid_30963397/
 
(that’s my much more modest house visible at the right of the photo)
 
Maybe a pool table instead of a pool?
 
Of course, come to think of it, a customer recently bought a big house where the only thing the previous owner left behind was the pool table.  I guess those things are a bitch to move.
 
 
From: AF  On Behalf Of Jason McKemie
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2020 7:36 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools
 
A customer of mine had a retracting glass roof over the pool area, that was pretty nice. The salt water pools are lower maintenance and healthier from what my friends that have them have told me.

On Monday, January 20, 2020,  wrote:




I have a friend that put it inside.  
Another friend did a salt water pool due to supposedly low maintenance.  Not sure about that technology.  
H.  
I have an elevation and a patio area that is conducive to being an outdoor extension of a pool deck.  
 
 
From: Lewis Bergman 
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2020 6:26 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools
 
Definitely. Put it inside
 
On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 6:22 PM Bill Prince  wrote:




Put a roof on it and keep your home theater and gym in there.
When we had one, it was used more for friends and family than we did for ourselves. We don't have one here, and I'm fine with that.
 
bp

 
On 1/20/2020 5:07 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:




Considering adding a pool to my home.  
Worth it?  
 
Desert Utah.  
Lots of blowing dust year around.  
 
Only 3-4 months of weather suitable for use.
Would I use it much?  
I don’t use my home theater much.  
I don’t use my home gym much.  
 


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Re: [AFMUG] WiFi analyzer apps for iOS

[Matt]

The "Apple Airport Utility" has some very basic wifi scanning abilities.

On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 9:22 AM Ken Hohhof  wrote:
>
> OK, I’m not an Apple person.  Not a big ideology thing, just don’t own any 
> Apple devices except for an old eMac in the attic and my wife’s very old iPad.
>
>
>
> So I’ve been using Ubiquiti’s WiFiman app on my phone.  I’m not a big 
> Ubiquiti person either, but the app is really quick and easy to use, so I 
> guess it appeals to my laziness.  I tried a few others and they seemed fussy 
> and didn’t give me the info I wanted and WiFiman just works.
>
>
>
> Apparently the iOS version of WiFiman doesn’t have any WiFi features, so it 
> would be useless to me.  I’m seeing conflicting information about Apple 
> supposedly locking all 3rd party app vendors out from accessing the WiFi 
> info.  Yet there seem to be iOS WiFi analyzers out there.
>
>
>
> Is there a good WiFi analyzer for iOS?  And if it’s true that Apple locks 
> them out from accessing the WiFi chip info, how do they do it?  Or is there 
> some official Apple app you have to use?  I’m not talking about the info you 
> get in Settings > WiFi when you go to join a WiFi network, that’s very 
> limited, not enough to optimize your router placement and configuration.
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[Doug Hass]

We have a freshwater pool here in Indiana.  We get 5 months out of it, with
some heating at the front and back end.  We add water most
Augusts/Septembers once the nights get cooler and you have more
evaporation, but that adds only $25-50 to our water bill in those months.
We haven't converted to saltwater because there seems to be no need.

We spend *maybe* $7-$8 a week on chemicals, and I buy all the chemicals
(liquid chlorine, muriatic acid, Borax/soda ash--those are literally all
you need until you winterize) at Ace Hardware or Lowe's.  We moved away
from using stabilized chlorine tablets or shocks as they just resulted in
using more and more chemicals and having to maintain much higher chlorine
levels because the pool ended up overstabilized with CYA values that were
off the charts.  As for cleaning, we invested $1200 in a Dolphin robot pool
cleaner.  I throw it in the pool once a week, twice when the cottonwood is
blowing around.  I might spend 15-20 minutes a week maintaining the pool.

I'd vote for doing it.

Doug Hass
Chair, Association of Corporate Counsel Employment and Labor Law Network
hassd...@gmail.com
(847) 957-1061


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:20 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies 
wrote:

> In FL it is an unwritten rule every house should have an in ground pool.
> We have had one for 20+ years.  I do the salt deal.  Really like it.  Not
> very much maintenance.  Of course we don't have to winterize and with the
> solar heaters, we get a good 9 months of use.  We had some of our family
> from the mid-west using it when they were down for Thanksgiving.  When the
> kids were younger it would be used every day during the summer.  Now my
> wife will use it about 4 days a week for low impact exercise when it is
> warm enough.
>
> All that being said, I would never rip it out of the ground.  With just a
> bit of modification, it would make a great koi pond.
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com 
>
> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
> www.Myakka.com
>
> --
>
> Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 10:46:45 AM, you wrote:
>
>
> A friend of mine owns a company that does nothing but remove in-ground
> pools.
>
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:44 AM dave via AF  wrote:
>
> Around here the above ground pool doesnt  de-value the property due to
> possible removal if wanted.
> In ground pools here sell for much less than a home without one here.
> There are some really nice above ground systems but the only thing I would
> be concerned with is the decking or
> construction to go with it because it would induce more maint unless you
> went with composite 100%
>
>
>
>
> On 1/20/20 9:03 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
>
> Neighbor’s house finally sold.  In ground heated saltwater pool, according
> to the MLS listing.  I don’t know about lower maintenance.  It seemed like
> they had the pool service truck there on a weekly basis.  Plus 2 days in
> fall to prep it for winter.
>
>
> https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/il/glen-ellyn/632-north-main-st/pid_30963397/
>
> (that’s my much more modest house visible at the right of the photo)
>
> Maybe a pool table instead of a pool?
>
> Of course, come to think of it, a customer recently bought a big house
> where the only thing the previous owner left behind was the pool table.  I
> guess those things are a bitch to move.
>
>
> *From:* AF   *On Behalf
> Of *Jason McKemie
> *Sent:* Monday, January 20, 2020 7:36 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group  
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools
>
> A customer of mine had a retracting glass roof over the pool area, that
> was pretty nice. The salt water pools are lower maintenance and healthier
> from what my friends that have them have told me.
>
> On Monday, January 20, 2020,  wrote:
>
> I have a friend that put it inside.
> Another friend did a salt water pool due to supposedly low maintenance.
> Not sure about that technology.
> H.
> I have an elevation and a patio area that is conducive to being an outdoor
> extension of a pool deck.
>
>
> *From:* Lewis Bergman
> *Sent:* Monday, January 20, 2020 6:26 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools
>
> Definitely. Put it inside
>
> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 6:22 PM Bill Prince  wrote:
>
> Put a roof on it and keep your home theater and gym in there.
> When we had one, it was used more for friends and family than we did for
> ourselves. We don't have one here, and I'm fine with that.
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 1/20/2020 5:07 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
>
> Considering adding a pool to my home.
> Worth it?
>
> Desert Utah.
> Lots of blowing dust year around.
>
> Only 3-4 months of weather suitable for use.
> Would I use it much?
> I don’t use my home theater much.
> I don’t use my home gym much.
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> --
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com --
> AF

Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[Cameron Crum]

I have a 40,000 gal pool. My back yard is surrounded by trees (two sides of
crepe myrtles, and some kind of broadleaf deciduous trees along the back)
and I have a large pecan tree that has very high branches that hang over
the shallow end in one part. The squirrels like to play a game and see how
far they can chuck half eaten pecans out into the pool. Green pecans sink
and almost immediately turn brown staining the plaster. Only thing that
gets the stains off is poring granulated shock on them and letting it sit
without the filter running for a couple hours. We also loose about a 1/4 to
1/2 inch a day in the TX summer. With all the organic material that ends up
in my pool, and with the water loss and replacing with much less
chlorinated city water, I have to shock it at least once a week in the
summer and add algicide at least once per month. The sun also breaks
chlorine down quickly. I spend about 350/month in the summer in chemicals
and have to skim every day and brush it at least twice a week. If I had it
to do again, I would never, ever own a pool.


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:20 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies 
wrote:

> In FL it is an unwritten rule every house should have an in ground pool.
> We have had one for 20+ years.  I do the salt deal.  Really like it.  Not
> very much maintenance.  Of course we don't have to winterize and with the
> solar heaters, we get a good 9 months of use.  We had some of our family
> from the mid-west using it when they were down for Thanksgiving.  When the
> kids were younger it would be used every day during the summer.  Now my
> wife will use it about 4 days a week for low impact exercise when it is
> warm enough.
>
> All that being said, I would never rip it out of the ground.  With just a
> bit of modification, it would make a great koi pond.
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com 
>
> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
> www.Myakka.com
>
> --
>
> Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 10:46:45 AM, you wrote:
>
>
> A friend of mine owns a company that does nothing but remove in-ground
> pools.
>
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:44 AM dave via AF  wrote:
>
> Around here the above ground pool doesnt  de-value the property due to
> possible removal if wanted.
> In ground pools here sell for much less than a home without one here.
> There are some really nice above ground systems but the only thing I would
> be concerned with is the decking or
> construction to go with it because it would induce more maint unless you
> went with composite 100%
>
>
>
>
> On 1/20/20 9:03 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
>
> Neighbor’s house finally sold.  In ground heated saltwater pool, according
> to the MLS listing.  I don’t know about lower maintenance.  It seemed like
> they had the pool service truck there on a weekly basis.  Plus 2 days in
> fall to prep it for winter.
>
>
> https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/il/glen-ellyn/632-north-main-st/pid_30963397/
>
> (that’s my much more modest house visible at the right of the photo)
>
> Maybe a pool table instead of a pool?
>
> Of course, come to think of it, a customer recently bought a big house
> where the only thing the previous owner left behind was the pool table.  I
> guess those things are a bitch to move.
>
>
> *From:* AF   *On Behalf
> Of *Jason McKemie
> *Sent:* Monday, January 20, 2020 7:36 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group  
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools
>
> A customer of mine had a retracting glass roof over the pool area, that
> was pretty nice. The salt water pools are lower maintenance and healthier
> from what my friends that have them have told me.
>
> On Monday, January 20, 2020,  wrote:
>
> I have a friend that put it inside.
> Another friend did a salt water pool due to supposedly low maintenance.
> Not sure about that technology.
> H.
> I have an elevation and a patio area that is conducive to being an outdoor
> extension of a pool deck.
>
>
> *From:* Lewis Bergman
> *Sent:* Monday, January 20, 2020 6:26 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools
>
> Definitely. Put it inside
>
> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 6:22 PM Bill Prince  wrote:
>
> Put a roof on it and keep your home theater and gym in there.
> When we had one, it was used more for friends and family than we did for
> ourselves. We don't have one here, and I'm fine with that.
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 1/20/2020 5:07 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
>
> Considering adding a pool to my home.
> Worth it?
>
> Desert Utah.
> Lots of blowing dust year around.
>
> Only 3-4 months of weather suitable for use.
> Would I use it much?
> I don’t use my home theater much.
> I don’t use my home gym much.
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> --
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afm

Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[Mike Hammett]

I think pool stores drive people away from pools by making poor 
recommendations, artificially inflating the cost of pool maintenance. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Doug Hass"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 11:30:37 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools 



We have a freshwater pool here in Indiana. We get 5 months out of it, with some 
heating at the front and back end. We add water most Augusts/Septembers once 
the nights get cooler and you have more evaporation, but that adds only $25-50 
to our water bill in those months. We haven't converted to saltwater because 
there seems to be no need. 


We spend maybe $7-$8 a week on chemicals, and I buy all the chemicals (liquid 
chlorine, muriatic acid, Borax/soda ash--those are literally all you need until 
you winterize) at Ace Hardware or Lowe's. We moved away from using stabilized 
chlorine tablets or shocks as they just resulted in using more and more 
chemicals and having to maintain much higher chlorine levels because the pool 
ended up overstabilized with CYA values that were off the charts. As for 
cleaning, we invested $1200 in a Dolphin robot pool cleaner. I throw it in the 
pool once a week, twice when the cottonwood is blowing around. I might spend 
15-20 minutes a week maintaining the pool. 


I'd vote for doing it. 




Doug Hass 
Chair, Association of Corporate Counsel Employment and Labor Law Network 
hassd...@gmail.com 
(847) 957-1061 



On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:20 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies < m...@mailmt.com > 
wrote: 



In FL it is an unwritten rule every house should have an in ground pool. We 
have had one for 20+ years. I do the salt deal. Really like it. Not very much 
maintenance. Of course we don't have to winterize and with the solar heaters, 
we get a good 9 months of use. We had some of our family from the mid-west 
using it when they were down for Thanksgiving. When the kids were younger it 
would be used every day during the summer. Now my wife will use it about 4 days 
a week for low impact exercise when it is warm enough. 

All that being said, I would never rip it out of the ground. With just a bit of 
modification, it would make a great koi pond. 


-- 
Best regards, 
Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com 

Myakka Technologies, Inc. 
www.Myakka.com 

-- 

Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 10:46:45 AM, you wrote: 


A friend of mine owns a company that does nothing but remove in-ground 
pools. 

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:44 AM dave via AF < af@af.afmug.com > wrote: 

Around here the above ground pool doesnt de-value the property due to 
possible removal if wanted. 
In ground pools here sell for much less than a home without one here. 
There are some really nice above ground systems but the only thing I would be 
concerned with is the decking or 
construction to go with it because it would induce more maint unless you went 
with composite 100% 




On 1/20/20 9:03 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote: 

Neighbor’s house finally sold. In ground heated saltwater pool, 
according to the MLS listing. I don’t know about lower maintenance. It seemed 
like they had the pool service truck there on a weekly basis. Plus 2 days in 
fall to prep it for winter. 

https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/il/glen-ellyn/632-north-main-st/pid_30963397/
 

(that’s my much more modest house visible at the right of the photo) 

Maybe a pool table instead of a pool? 

Of course, come to think of it, a customer recently bought a big house where 
the only thing the previous owner left behind was the pool table. I guess those 
things are a bitch to move. 


From: AF  On Behalf Of Jason McKemie 
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2020 7:36 PM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools 

A customer of mine had a retracting glass roof over the pool area, that was 
pretty nice. The salt water pools are lower maintenance and healthier from what 
my friends that have them have told me. 

On Monday, January 20, 2020, < ch...@wbmfg.com > wrote: 

I have a friend that put it inside. 
Another friend did a salt water pool due to supposedly low maintenance. Not 
sure about that technology. 
H. 
I have an elevation and a patio area that is conducive to being an outdoor 
extension of a pool deck. 


From: Lewis Bergman 
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2020 6:26 PM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools 

Definitely. Put it inside 

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 6:22 PM Bill Prince < part15...@gmail.com > wrote: 

Put a roof on it and keep your home theater and gym in there. 
When we had one, it was used more for friends and family than we did for 
ourselves. We don't have one here, and I'm fine with that. 

bp 
 

On 1/20/2020 5:07 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote: 

Considering addin

Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[Mike Hammett]

Would not a cover mitigate most of that? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Cameron Crum"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 11:32:33 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools 


I have a 40,000 gal pool. My back yard is surrounded by trees (two sides of 
crepe myrtles, and some kind of broadleaf deciduous trees along the back) and I 
have a large pecan tree that has very high branches that hang over the shallow 
end in one part. The squirrels like to play a game and see how far they can 
chuck half eaten pecans out into the pool. Green pecans sink and almost 
immediately turn brown staining the plaster. Only thing that gets the stains 
off is poring granulated shock on them and letting it sit without the filter 
running for a couple hours. We also loose about a 1/4 to 1/2 inch a day in the 
TX summer. With all the organic material that ends up in my pool, and with the 
water loss and replacing with much less chlorinated city water, I have to shock 
it at least once a week in the summer and add algicide at least once per month. 
The sun also breaks chlorine down quickly. I spend about 350/month in the 
summer in chemicals and have to skim every day and brush it at least twice a 
week. If I had it to do again, I would never, ever own a pool. 




On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:20 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies < m...@mailmt.com > 
wrote: 



In FL it is an unwritten rule every house should have an in ground pool. We 
have had one for 20+ years. I do the salt deal. Really like it. Not very much 
maintenance. Of course we don't have to winterize and with the solar heaters, 
we get a good 9 months of use. We had some of our family from the mid-west 
using it when they were down for Thanksgiving. When the kids were younger it 
would be used every day during the summer. Now my wife will use it about 4 days 
a week for low impact exercise when it is warm enough. 

All that being said, I would never rip it out of the ground. With just a bit of 
modification, it would make a great koi pond. 


-- 
Best regards, 
Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com 

Myakka Technologies, Inc. 
www.Myakka.com 

-- 

Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 10:46:45 AM, you wrote: 


A friend of mine owns a company that does nothing but remove in-ground 
pools. 

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:44 AM dave via AF < af@af.afmug.com > wrote: 

Around here the above ground pool doesnt de-value the property due to 
possible removal if wanted. 
In ground pools here sell for much less than a home without one here. 
There are some really nice above ground systems but the only thing I would be 
concerned with is the decking or 
construction to go with it because it would induce more maint unless you went 
with composite 100% 




On 1/20/20 9:03 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote: 

Neighbor’s house finally sold. In ground heated saltwater pool, 
according to the MLS listing. I don’t know about lower maintenance. It seemed 
like they had the pool service truck there on a weekly basis. Plus 2 days in 
fall to prep it for winter. 

https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/il/glen-ellyn/632-north-main-st/pid_30963397/
 

(that’s my much more modest house visible at the right of the photo) 

Maybe a pool table instead of a pool? 

Of course, come to think of it, a customer recently bought a big house where 
the only thing the previous owner left behind was the pool table. I guess those 
things are a bitch to move. 


From: AF  On Behalf Of Jason McKemie 
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2020 7:36 PM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools 

A customer of mine had a retracting glass roof over the pool area, that was 
pretty nice. The salt water pools are lower maintenance and healthier from what 
my friends that have them have told me. 

On Monday, January 20, 2020, < ch...@wbmfg.com > wrote: 

I have a friend that put it inside. 
Another friend did a salt water pool due to supposedly low maintenance. Not 
sure about that technology. 
H. 
I have an elevation and a patio area that is conducive to being an outdoor 
extension of a pool deck. 


From: Lewis Bergman 
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2020 6:26 PM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools 

Definitely. Put it inside 

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 6:22 PM Bill Prince < part15...@gmail.com > wrote: 

Put a roof on it and keep your home theater and gym in there. 
When we had one, it was used more for friends and family than we did for 
ourselves. We don't have one here, and I'm fine with that. 

bp 
 

On 1/20/2020 5:07 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote: 

Considering adding a pool to my home. 
Worth it? 

Desert Utah. 
Lots of blowing dust year around. 

Only 3-4 months of weather suitable for use. 
Would I use it much? 
I don’t use my home t

Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[Adam Moffett]

I think my takeaway from these anecdotes is that it depends on where you 
are.



On 1/21/2020 12:32 PM, Cameron Crum wrote:
I have a 40,000 gal pool. My back yard is surrounded by trees (two 
sides of crepe myrtles, and some kind of broadleaf deciduous trees 
along the back)  and I have a large pecan tree that has very high 
branches that hang over the shallow end in one part. The squirrels 
like to play a game and see how far they can chuck half eaten pecans 
out into the pool. Green pecans sink and almost immediately turn brown 
staining the plaster. Only thing that gets the stains off is poring 
granulated shock on them and letting it sit without the filter running 
for a couple hours. We also loose about a 1/4 to 1/2 inch a day in the 
TX summer. With all the organic material that ends up in my pool, and 
with the water loss and replacing with much less chlorinated city 
water, I have to shock it at least once a week in the summer and add 
algicide at least once per month. The sun also breaks chlorine down 
quickly. I spend about 350/month in the summer in chemicals and have 
to skim every day and brush it at least twice a week. If I had it to 
do again, I would never, ever own a pool.



On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:20 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies 
mailto:m...@mailmt.com>> wrote:


In FL it is an unwritten rule every house should have an in ground
pool.  We have had one for 20+ years.  I do the salt deal.  Really
like it. Not very much maintenance.  Of course we don't have to
winterize and with the solar heaters, we get a good 9 months of
use.  We had some of our family from the mid-west using it when
they were down for Thanksgiving. When the kids were younger it
would be used every day during the summer.  Now my wife will use
it about 4 days a week for low impact exercise when it is warm
enough.

All that being said, I would never rip it out of the ground.  With
just a bit of modification, it would make a great koi pond.


--
Best regards,
Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.Myakka.com 

--

Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 10:46:45 AM, you wrote:


A friend of mine owns a company that does nothing but remove
in-ground pools.

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:44 AM dave via AF mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:

Around here the above ground pool doesnt  de-value the property
due to possible removal if wanted.
In ground pools here sell for much less than a home without one here.
There are some really nice above ground systems but the only thing
I would be concerned with is the decking or
construction to go with it because it would induce more maint
unless you went with composite 100%




On 1/20/20 9:03 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

Neighbor’s house finally sold.  In ground heated saltwater pool,
according to the MLS listing.  I don’t know about lower
maintenance.  It seemed like they had the pool service truck there
on a weekly basis.  Plus 2 days in fall to prep it for winter.


https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/il/glen-ellyn/632-north-main-st/pid_30963397/

(that’s my much more modest house visible at the right of the photo)

Maybe a pool table instead of a pool?

Of course, come to think of it, a customer recently bought a big
house where the only thing the previous owner left behind was the
pool table.  I guess those things are a bitch to move.


*From:* AF 
 *On Behalf Of *Jason McKemie
*Sent:* Monday, January 20, 2020 7:36 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

A customer of mine had a retracting glass roof over the pool area,
that was pretty nice. The salt water pools are lower maintenance
and healthier from what my friends that have them have told me.

On Monday, January 20, 2020, mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:

I have a friend that put it inside.
Another friend did a salt water pool due to supposedly low
maintenance.  Not sure about that technology.
H.
I have an elevation and a patio area that is conducive to being an
outdoor extension of a pool deck.


*From:* Lewis Bergman
*Sent:* Monday, January 20, 2020 6:26 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

Definitely. Put it inside

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 6:22 PM Bill Prince mailto:part15...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Put a roof on it and keep your home theater and gym in there.
When we had one, it was used more for friends and family than we
did for ourselves. We don't have one here, and I'm fine with that.

bp


On 1/20/2020 5:07 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

Considering adding a pool to my home.
Worth it?

Desert Utah.
Lots of blowing dust year arou

Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[Cameron Crum]

We are talking about a huge cover for that big of a pool. It would require
probably 3 people to put out and take up. Not practical.

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 11:36 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:

> Would not a cover mitigate most of that?
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Cameron Crum" 
> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> *Sent: *Tuesday, January 21, 2020 11:32:33 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools
>
> I have a 40,000 gal pool. My back yard is surrounded by trees (two sides
> of crepe myrtles, and some kind of broadleaf deciduous trees along the
> back)  and I have a large pecan tree that has very high branches that hang
> over the shallow end in one part. The squirrels like to play a game and see
> how far they can chuck half eaten pecans out into the pool. Green pecans
> sink and almost immediately turn brown staining the plaster. Only thing
> that gets the stains off is poring granulated shock on them and letting it
> sit without the filter running for a couple hours. We also loose about a
> 1/4 to 1/2 inch a day in the TX summer. With all the organic material that
> ends up in my pool, and with the water loss and replacing with much less
> chlorinated city water, I have to shock it at least once a week in the
> summer and add algicide at least once per month. The sun also breaks
> chlorine down quickly. I spend about 350/month in the summer in chemicals
> and have to skim every day and brush it at least twice a week. If I had it
> to do again, I would never, ever own a pool.
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:20 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies <
> m...@mailmt.com> wrote:
>
>> In FL it is an unwritten rule every house should have an in ground pool.
>> We have had one for 20+ years.  I do the salt deal.  Really like it.  Not
>> very much maintenance.  Of course we don't have to winterize and with the
>> solar heaters, we get a good 9 months of use.  We had some of our family
>> from the mid-west using it when they were down for Thanksgiving.  When the
>> kids were younger it would be used every day during the summer.  Now my
>> wife will use it about 4 days a week for low impact exercise when it is
>> warm enough.
>>
>> All that being said, I would never rip it out of the ground.  With just a
>> bit of modification, it would make a great koi pond.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>> Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com 
>>
>> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
>> www.Myakka.com
>>
>> --
>>
>> Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 10:46:45 AM, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> A friend of mine owns a company that does nothing but remove in-ground
>> pools.
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:44 AM dave via AF  wrote:
>>
>> Around here the above ground pool doesnt  de-value the property due to
>> possible removal if wanted.
>> In ground pools here sell for much less than a home without one here.
>> There are some really nice above ground systems but the only thing I
>> would be concerned with is the decking or
>> construction to go with it because it would induce more maint unless you
>> went with composite 100%
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 1/20/20 9:03 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
>>
>> Neighbor’s house finally sold.  In ground heated saltwater pool,
>> according to the MLS listing.  I don’t know about lower maintenance.  It
>> seemed like they had the pool service truck there on a weekly basis.  Plus
>> 2 days in fall to prep it for winter.
>>
>>
>> https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/il/glen-ellyn/632-north-main-st/pid_30963397/
>>
>> (that’s my much more modest house visible at the right of the photo)
>>
>> Maybe a pool table instead of a pool?
>>
>> Of course, come to think of it, a customer recently bought a big house
>> where the only thing the previous owner left behind was the pool table.  I
>> guess those things are a bitch to move.
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF   *On
>> Behalf Of *Jason McKemie
>> *Sent:* Monday, January 20, 2020 7:36 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools
>>
>> A customer of mine had a retracting glass roof over the pool area, that
>> was pretty nice. The salt water pools are lower maintenance and healthier
>> from what my friends that have them have told me.
>>
>> On Monday, January 20, 2020,  wrote:
>>
>> I have a friend that put it inside.
>> Another friend did a salt water pool due to supposedly low maintenance.
>> No

Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[Mark - Myakka Technologies]

Title: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools


Cameron,

Most of the pools in FL are screened in.  Keeps bugs and other junk out.  Don't think that would work well up north.  I'm not a snow/ice expert, but guessing a screened roof would collapse under the weight eventually. 

--
Best regards,
 Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.Myakka.com

--

Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 12:32:33 PM, you wrote:





I have a 40,000 gal pool. My back yard is surrounded by trees (two sides of crepe myrtles, and some kind of broadleaf deciduous trees along the back)  and I have a large pecan tree that has very high branches that hang over the shallow end in one part. The squirrels like to play a game and see how far they can chuck half eaten pecans out into the pool. Green pecans sink and almost immediately turn brown staining the plaster. Only thing that gets the stains off is poring granulated shock on them and letting it sit without the filter running for a couple hours. We also loose about a 1/4 to 1/2 inch a day in the TX summer. With all the organic material that ends up in my pool, and with the water loss and replacing with much less chlorinated city water, I have to shock it at least once a week in the summer and add algicide at least once per month. The sun also breaks chlorine down quickly. I spend about 350/month in the summer in chemicals and have to skim every day and brush it at least twice a week. If I had it to do again, I would never, ever own a pool. 


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:20 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies  wrote:




In FL it is an unwritten rule every house should have an in ground pool.  We have had one for 20+ years.  I do the salt deal.  Really like it.  Not very much maintenance.  Of course we don't have to winterize and with the solar heaters, we get a good 9 months of use.  We had some of our family from the mid-west using it when they were down for Thanksgiving.  When the kids were younger it would be used every day during the summer.  Now my wife will use it about 4 days a week for low impact exercise when it is warm enough. 

All that being said, I would never rip it out of the ground.  With just a bit of modification, it would make a great koi pond.


--
Best regards,
Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.Myakka.com

--

Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 10:46:45 AM, you wrote:





A friend of mine owns a company that does nothing but remove in-ground pools.

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:44 AM dave via AF  wrote:




Around here the above ground pool doesnt  de-value the property due to possible removal if wanted. 
In ground pools here sell for much less than a home without one here. 
There are some really nice above ground systems but the only thing I would be concerned with is the decking or
construction to go with it because it would induce more maint unless you went with composite 100%




On 1/20/20 9:03 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:




Neighbor’s house finally sold.  In ground heated saltwater pool, according to the MLS listing.  I don’t know about lower maintenance.  It seemed like they had the pool service truck there on a weekly basis.  Plus 2 days in fall to prep it for winter.

https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/il/glen-ellyn/632-north-main-st/pid_30963397/

(that’s my much more modest house visible at the right of the photo)

Maybe a pool table instead of a pool?

Of course, come to think of it, a customer recently bought a big house where the only thing the previous owner left behind was the pool table.  I guess those things are a bitch to move.


From: AF  On Behalf Of Jason McKemie
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2020 7:36 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

A customer of mine had a retracting glass roof over the pool area, that was pretty nice. The salt water pools are lower maintenance and healthier from what my friends that have them have told me.

On Monday, January 20, 2020,  wrote:




I have a friend that put it inside.  
Another friend did a salt water pool due to supposedly low maintenance.  Not sure about that technology.  
H.  
I have an elevation and a patio area that is conducive to being an outdoor extension of a pool deck.  


From: Lewis Bergman 
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2020 6:26 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

Definitely. Put it inside

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 6:22 PM Bill Prince  wrote:




Put a roof on it and keep your home theater and gym in there.
When we had one, it was used more for friends and family than we did for ourselves. We don't have one here, and I'm fine with that.

bp


On 1/20/2020 5:07 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:




Considering adding a pool to my home.  
Worth it?  

Desert Utah.  
Lots of blowing dust year around.  

Only 3-4 months of weather suitable for use.
Would I use it much?  
I don’t us

Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[Mike Hammett]

True. My Texas friends with pools all have them in screened in. 

I've thought about that up here too, through obviously with much heavier 
construction. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Mark - Myakka Technologies"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 11:45:03 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools 

Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools Cameron, 

Most of the pools in FL are screened in. Keeps bugs and other junk out. Don't 
think that would work well up north. I'm not a snow/ice expert, but guessing a 
screened roof would collapse under the weight eventually. 

-- 
Best regards, 
Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com 

Myakka Technologies, Inc. 
www.Myakka.com 

-- 

Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 12:32:33 PM, you wrote: 


I have a 40,000 gal pool. My back yard is surrounded by trees (two 
sides of crepe myrtles, and some kind of broadleaf deciduous trees along the 
back) and I have a large pecan tree that has very high branches that hang over 
the shallow end in one part. The squirrels like to play a game and see how far 
they can chuck half eaten pecans out into the pool. Green pecans sink and 
almost immediately turn brown staining the plaster. Only thing that gets the 
stains off is poring granulated shock on them and letting it sit without the 
filter running for a couple hours. We also loose about a 1/4 to 1/2 inch a day 
in the TX summer. With all the organic material that ends up in my pool, and 
with the water loss and replacing with much less chlorinated city water, I have 
to shock it at least once a week in the summer and add algicide at least once 
per month. The sun also breaks chlorine down quickly. I spend about 350/month 
in the summer in chemicals and have to skim every day and brush it at least 
twice a week. If I had it to do again, I would never, ever own a pool. 


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:20 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies < m...@mailmt.com > 
wrote: 

In FL it is an unwritten rule every house should have an in ground 
pool. We have had one for 20+ years. I do the salt deal. Really like it. Not 
very much maintenance. Of course we don't have to winterize and with the solar 
heaters, we get a good 9 months of use. We had some of our family from the 
mid-west using it when they were down for Thanksgiving. When the kids were 
younger it would be used every day during the summer. Now my wife will use it 
about 4 days a week for low impact exercise when it is warm enough. 

All that being said, I would never rip it out of the ground. With just a bit of 
modification, it would make a great koi pond. 


-- 
Best regards, 
Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com 

Myakka Technologies, Inc. 
www.Myakka.com 

-- 

Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 10:46:45 AM, you wrote: 


A friend of mine owns a company that does nothing but remove in-ground 
pools. 

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:44 AM dave via AF < af@af.afmug.com > wrote: 

Around here the above ground pool doesnt de-value the property due to 
possible removal if wanted. 
In ground pools here sell for much less than a home without one here. 
There are some really nice above ground systems but the only thing I would be 
concerned with is the decking or 
construction to go with it because it would induce more maint unless you went 
with composite 100% 




On 1/20/20 9:03 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote: 

Neighbor’s house finally sold. In ground heated saltwater pool, 
according to the MLS listing. I don’t know about lower maintenance. It seemed 
like they had the pool service truck there on a weekly basis. Plus 2 days in 
fall to prep it for winter. 

https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/il/glen-ellyn/632-north-main-st/pid_30963397/
 

(that’s my much more modest house visible at the right of the photo) 

Maybe a pool table instead of a pool? 

Of course, come to think of it, a customer recently bought a big house where 
the only thing the previous owner left behind was the pool table. I guess those 
things are a bitch to move. 


From: AF  On Behalf Of Jason McKemie 
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2020 7:36 PM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools 

A customer of mine had a retracting glass roof over the pool area, that was 
pretty nice. The salt water pools are lower maintenance and healthier from what 
my friends that have them have told me. 

On Monday, January 20, 2020, < ch...@wbmfg.com > wrote: 

I have a friend that put it inside. 
Another friend did a salt water pool due to supposedly low maintenance. Not 
sure about that technology. 
H. 
I have an elevation and a patio area that is conducive to being an outdoor 
extension of a pool deck. 


From: Lewis Bergman 
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2020 6:26 PM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools 

Definit

Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[chuck]

At least my water is free.

From: Cameron Crum 
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 10:32 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

I have a 40,000 gal pool. My back yard is surrounded by trees (two sides of 
crepe myrtles, and some kind of broadleaf deciduous trees along the back)  and 
I have a large pecan tree that has very high branches that hang over the 
shallow end in one part. The squirrels like to play a game and see how far they 
can chuck half eaten pecans out into the pool. Green pecans sink and almost 
immediately turn brown staining the plaster. Only thing that gets the stains 
off is poring granulated shock on them and letting it sit without the filter 
running for a couple hours. We also loose about a 1/4 to 1/2 inch a day in the 
TX summer. With all the organic material that ends up in my pool, and with the 
water loss and replacing with much less chlorinated city water, I have to shock 
it at least once a week in the summer and add algicide at least once per month. 
The sun also breaks chlorine down quickly. I spend about 350/month in the 
summer in chemicals and have to skim every day and brush it at least twice a 
week. If I had it to do again, I would never, ever own a pool.  


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:20 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies  
wrote:

  In FL it is an unwritten rule every house should have an in ground pool.  We 
have had one for 20+ years.  I do the salt deal.  Really like it.  Not very 
much maintenance.  Of course we don't have to winterize and with the solar 
heaters, we get a good 9 months of use.  We had some of our family from the 
mid-west using it when they were down for Thanksgiving.  When the kids were 
younger it would be used every day during the summer.  Now my wife will use it 
about 4 days a week for low impact exercise when it is warm enough. 

  All that being said, I would never rip it out of the ground.  With just a bit 
of modification, it would make a great koi pond.


  --
  Best regards,
  Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

  Myakka Technologies, Inc.
  www.Myakka.com

  --

  Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 10:46:45 AM, you wrote:


   A friend of mine owns a company that does nothing but remove in-ground 
pools.

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:44 AM dave via AF  wrote:

 Around here the above ground pool doesnt  de-value the property 
due to possible removal if wanted. 
  In ground pools here sell for much less than a home without one 
here. 
  There are some really nice above ground systems but the only 
thing I would be concerned with is the decking or
  construction to go with it because it would induce more maint 
unless you went with composite 100%




  On 1/20/20 9:03 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

   Neighbor’s house finally sold.  In ground heated saltwater 
pool, according to the MLS listing.  I don’t know about lower maintenance.  It 
seemed like they had the pool service truck there on a weekly basis.  Plus 2 
days in fall to prep it for winter.


https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/il/glen-ellyn/632-north-main-st/pid_30963397/

(that’s my much more modest house visible at the right of 
the photo)

Maybe a pool table instead of a pool?

Of course, come to think of it, a customer recently bought 
a big house where the only thing the previous owner left behind was the pool 
table.  I guess those things are a bitch to move.


From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com On Behalf Of Jason 
McKemie
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2020 7:36 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

A customer of mine had a retracting glass roof over the 
pool area, that was pretty nice. The salt water pools are lower maintenance and 
healthier from what my friends that have them have told me.

On Monday, January 20, 2020,  wrote:

 I have a friend that put it inside.  
  Another friend did a salt water pool due to 
supposedly low maintenance.  Not sure about that technology.  
  H.  
  I have an elevation and a patio area that is 
conducive to being an outdoor extension of a pool deck.  


  From: Lewis Bergman 
  Sent: Monday, January 20, 2020 6:26 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

  Definitely. Put it inside

  On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 6:22 PM Bill Prince 
 wrote:

   Put a roof on it and keep your home theater and 
gym in there.
When w

Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[chuck]

Had a pool at my last office.  Fully motorized cover.  Just flip the switch.  

From: Cameron Crum 
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 10:38 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

We are talking about a huge cover for that big of a pool. It would require 
probably 3 people to put out and take up. Not practical.

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 11:36 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:

  Would not a cover mitigate most of that?




  -
  Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions

  Midwest Internet Exchange

  The Brothers WISP






--

  From: "Cameron Crum" 
  To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
  Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 11:32:33 AM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools


  I have a 40,000 gal pool. My back yard is surrounded by trees (two sides of 
crepe myrtles, and some kind of broadleaf deciduous trees along the back)  and 
I have a large pecan tree that has very high branches that hang over the 
shallow end in one part. The squirrels like to play a game and see how far they 
can chuck half eaten pecans out into the pool. Green pecans sink and almost 
immediately turn brown staining the plaster. Only thing that gets the stains 
off is poring granulated shock on them and letting it sit without the filter 
running for a couple hours. We also loose about a 1/4 to 1/2 inch a day in the 
TX summer. With all the organic material that ends up in my pool, and with the 
water loss and replacing with much less chlorinated city water, I have to shock 
it at least once a week in the summer and add algicide at least once per month. 
The sun also breaks chlorine down quickly. I spend about 350/month in the 
summer in chemicals and have to skim every day and brush it at least twice a 
week. If I had it to do again, I would never, ever own a pool.  


  On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:20 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies  
wrote:

In FL it is an unwritten rule every house should have an in ground pool.  
We have had one for 20+ years.  I do the salt deal.  Really like it.  Not very 
much maintenance.  Of course we don't have to winterize and with the solar 
heaters, we get a good 9 months of use.  We had some of our family from the 
mid-west using it when they were down for Thanksgiving.  When the kids were 
younger it would be used every day during the summer.  Now my wife will use it 
about 4 days a week for low impact exercise when it is warm enough. 

All that being said, I would never rip it out of the ground.  With just a 
bit of modification, it would make a great koi pond.


--
Best regards,
Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.Myakka.com

--

Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 10:46:45 AM, you wrote:


 A friend of mine owns a company that does nothing but remove in-ground 
pools.

  On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:44 AM dave via AF  wrote:

   Around here the above ground pool doesnt  de-value the property 
due to possible removal if wanted. 
In ground pools here sell for much less than a home without one 
here. 
There are some really nice above ground systems but the only 
thing I would be concerned with is the decking or
construction to go with it because it would induce more maint 
unless you went with composite 100%




On 1/20/20 9:03 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

 Neighbor’s house finally sold.  In ground heated saltwater 
pool, according to the MLS listing.  I don’t know about lower maintenance.  It 
seemed like they had the pool service truck there on a weekly basis.  Plus 2 
days in fall to prep it for winter.

  
https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/il/glen-ellyn/632-north-main-st/pid_30963397/

  (that’s my much more modest house visible at the right of 
the photo)

  Maybe a pool table instead of a pool?

  Of course, come to think of it, a customer recently 
bought a big house where the only thing the previous owner left behind was the 
pool table.  I guess those things are a bitch to move.


  From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com On Behalf Of 
Jason McKemie
  Sent: Monday, January 20, 2020 7:36 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
mailto:af@af.afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

  A customer of mine had a retracting glass roof over the 
pool area, that was pretty nice. The salt water pools are lower maintenance and 
healthier from what my friends that have them have told me.

  On Monday, January 20, 2020,  wrote:

   I have a friend that put it inside.  
Another friend did a salt water pool due to 
supposedly low maintenance.  Not sur

Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[chuck]

Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming PoolsSo do I want a roof over the pool?  I may totally 
enclose it, but if I choose not to and just screen it in, is having the sun on 
the water a good thing or not?
I think the sun helps algae grow does it not?

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 10:50 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

True. My Texas friends with pools all have them in screened in.

I've thought about that up here too, through obviously with much heavier 
construction.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Mark - Myakka Technologies" 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 11:45:03 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

Cameron,

Most of the pools in FL are screened in.  Keeps bugs and other junk out.  Don't 
think that would work well up north.  I'm not a snow/ice expert, but guessing a 
screened roof would collapse under the weight eventually. 

--
Best regards,
Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.Myakka.com

--

Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 12:32:33 PM, you wrote:


 I have a 40,000 gal pool. My back yard is surrounded by trees (two sides 
of crepe myrtles, and some kind of broadleaf deciduous trees along the back)  
and I have a large pecan tree that has very high branches that hang over the 
shallow end in one part. The squirrels like to play a game and see how far they 
can chuck half eaten pecans out into the pool. Green pecans sink and almost 
immediately turn brown staining the plaster. Only thing that gets the stains 
off is poring granulated shock on them and letting it sit without the filter 
running for a couple hours. We also loose about a 1/4 to 1/2 inch a day in the 
TX summer. With all the organic material that ends up in my pool, and with the 
water loss and replacing with much less chlorinated city water, I have to shock 
it at least once a week in the summer and add algicide at least once per month. 
The sun also breaks chlorine down quickly. I spend about 350/month in the 
summer in chemicals and have to skim every day and brush it at least twice a 
week. If I had it to do again, I would never, ever own a pool. 


  On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:20 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies 
 wrote:

   In FL it is an unwritten rule every house should have an in ground 
pool.  We have had one for 20+ years.  I do the salt deal.  Really like it.  
Not very much maintenance.  Of course we don't have to winterize and with the 
solar heaters, we get a good 9 months of use.  We had some of our family from 
the mid-west using it when they were down for Thanksgiving.  When the kids were 
younger it would be used every day during the summer.  Now my wife will use it 
about 4 days a week for low impact exercise when it is warm enough. 

All that being said, I would never rip it out of the ground.  With 
just a bit of modification, it would make a great koi pond.


--
Best regards,
Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.Myakka.com

--

Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 10:46:45 AM, you wrote:


 A friend of mine owns a company that does nothing but remove 
in-ground pools.

  On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:44 AM dave via AF 
 wrote:

   Around here the above ground pool doesnt  de-value the 
property due to possible removal if wanted. 
In ground pools here sell for much less than a home 
without one here. 
There are some really nice above ground systems but the 
only thing I would be concerned with is the decking or
construction to go with it because it would induce more 
maint unless you went with composite 100%




On 1/20/20 9:03 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

 Neighbor’s house finally sold.  In ground heated 
saltwater pool, according to the MLS listing.  I don’t know about lower 
maintenance.  It seemed like they had the pool service truck there on a weekly 
basis.  Plus 2 days in fall to prep it for winter.

  
https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/il/glen-ellyn/632-north-main-st/pid_30963397/

  (that’s my much more modest house visible at the 
right of the photo)

  Maybe a pool table instead of a pool?

  Of course, come to think of it, a customer 
recently bought a big house where the only thing the previous owner left behind 
was the pool table.  I guess those things are a bitch to move.


  From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com On Behalf 
Of Jason McK

Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[Mike Hammett]

The sun also removes algae. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: ch...@wbmfg.com 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 11:59:43 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools 

Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools 


So do I want a roof over the pool? I may totally enclose it, but if I choose 
not to and just screen it in, is having the sun on the water a good thing or 
not? 
I think the sun helps algae grow does it not? 




From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 10:50 AM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools 


True. My Texas friends with pools all have them in screened in. 

I've thought about that up here too, through obviously with much heavier 
construction. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Mark - Myakka Technologies"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 11:45:03 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools 

Cameron, 

Most of the pools in FL are screened in. Keeps bugs and other junk out. Don't 
think that would work well up north. I'm not a snow/ice expert, but guessing a 
screened roof would collapse under the weight eventually. 

-- 
Best regards, 
Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com 

Myakka Technologies, Inc. 
www.Myakka.com 

-- 

Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 12:32:33 PM, you wrote: 



I have a 40,000 gal pool. My back yard is surrounded by trees (two 
sides of crepe myrtles, and some kind of broadleaf deciduous trees along the 
back) and I have a large pecan tree that has very high branches that hang over 
the shallow end in one part. The squirrels like to play a game and see how far 
they can chuck half eaten pecans out into the pool. Green pecans sink and 
almost immediately turn brown staining the plaster. Only thing that gets the 
stains off is poring granulated shock on them and letting it sit without the 
filter running for a couple hours. We also loose about a 1/4 to 1/2 inch a day 
in the TX summer. With all the organic material that ends up in my pool, and 
with the water loss and replacing with much less chlorinated city water, I have 
to shock it at least once a week in the summer and add algicide at least once 
per month. The sun also breaks chlorine down quickly. I spend about 350/month 
in the summer in chemicals and have to skim every day and brush it at least 
twice a week. If I had it to do again, I would never, ever own a pool. 


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:20 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies < m...@mailmt.com > 
wrote: 


In FL it is an unwritten rule every house should have an in ground 
pool. We have had one for 20+ years. I do the salt deal. Really like it. Not 
very much maintenance. Of course we don't have to winterize and with the solar 
heaters, we get a good 9 months of use. We had some of our family from the 
mid-west using it when they were down for Thanksgiving. When the kids were 
younger it would be used every day during the summer. Now my wife will use it 
about 4 days a week for low impact exercise when it is warm enough. 

All that being said, I would never rip it out of the ground. With just a bit of 
modification, it would make a great koi pond. 


-- 
Best regards, 
Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com 

Myakka Technologies, Inc. 
www.Myakka.com 

-- 

Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 10:46:45 AM, you wrote: 



A friend of mine owns a company that does nothing but remove in-ground 
pools. 

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:44 AM dave via AF < af@af.afmug.com > wrote: 


Around here the above ground pool doesnt de-value the property due to 
possible removal if wanted. 
In ground pools here sell for much less than a home without one here. 
There are some really nice above ground systems but the only thing I would be 
concerned with is the decking or 
construction to go with it because it would induce more maint unless you went 
with composite 100% 




On 1/20/20 9:03 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote: 


Neighbor’s house finally sold. In ground heated saltwater pool, 
according to the MLS listing. I don’t know about lower maintenance. It seemed 
like they had the pool service truck there on a weekly basis. Plus 2 days in 
fall to prep it for winter. 

https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/il/glen-ellyn/632-north-main-st/pid_30963397/
 

(that’s my much more modest house visible at the right of the photo) 

Maybe a pool table instead of a pool? 

Of course, come to think of it, a customer recently bought a big house where 
the only thing the previous owner left behind was the pool table. I guess those 
things are a bitch to move. 


From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com On Behalf Of Jason McKemie 
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2020 7:36 PM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:a

Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[Mark - Myakka Technologies]

Title: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools


Chuck,

Depends.  Sun will help heat pool, but you can use solar panels to do that.  Rain water dilutes chemicals and throws pool out of balance.  

--
Best regards,
 Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.Myakka.com

--

Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 12:59:43 PM, you wrote:






So do I want a roof over the pool?  I may totally enclose it, but if I choose not to and just screen it in, is having the sun on the water a good thing or not?
I think the sun helps algae grow does it not?
 
From: Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 10:50 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools
 
True. My Texas friends with pools all have them in screened in.

I've thought about that up here too, through obviously with much heavier construction.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP




From: "Mark - Myakka Technologies" 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 11:45:03 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

Cameron,

Most of the pools in FL are screened in.  Keeps bugs and other junk out.  Don't think that would work well up north.  I'm not a snow/ice expert, but guessing a screened roof would collapse under the weight eventually. 

--
Best regards,
Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.Myakka.com

--

Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 12:32:33 PM, you wrote:





I have a 40,000 gal pool. My back yard is surrounded by trees (two sides of crepe myrtles, and some kind of broadleaf deciduous trees along the back)  and I have a large pecan tree that has very high branches that hang over the shallow end in one part. The squirrels like to play a game and see how far they can chuck half eaten pecans out into the pool. Green pecans sink and almost immediately turn brown staining the plaster. Only thing that gets the stains off is poring granulated shock on them and letting it sit without the filter running for a couple hours. We also loose about a 1/4 to 1/2 inch a day in the TX summer. With all the organic material that ends up in my pool, and with the water loss and replacing with much less chlorinated city water, I have to shock it at least once a week in the summer and add algicide at least once per month. The sun also breaks chlorine down quickly. I spend about 350/month in the summer in chemicals and have to skim every day and brush it at least twice a week. If I had it to do again, I would never, ever own a pool. 


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:20 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies  wrote:




In FL it is an unwritten rule every house should have an in ground pool.  We have had one for 20+ years.  I do the salt deal.  Really like it.  Not very much maintenance.  Of course we don't have to winterize and with the solar heaters, we get a good 9 months of use.  We had some of our family from the mid-west using it when they were down for Thanksgiving.  When the kids were younger it would be used every day during the summer.  Now my wife will use it about 4 days a week for low impact exercise when it is warm enough. 

All that being said, I would never rip it out of the ground.  With just a bit of modification, it would make a great koi pond.


--
Best regards,
Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.Myakka.com

--

Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 10:46:45 AM, you wrote:





A friend of mine owns a company that does nothing but remove in-ground pools.

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:44 AM dave via AF  wrote:




Around here the above ground pool doesnt  de-value the property due to possible removal if wanted. 
In ground pools here sell for much less than a home without one here. 
There are some really nice above ground systems but the only thing I would be concerned with is the decking or
construction to go with it because it would induce more maint unless you went with composite 100%




On 1/20/20 9:03 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:




Neighbor’s house finally sold.  In ground heated saltwater pool, according to the MLS listing.  I don’t know about lower maintenance.  It seemed like they had the pool service truck there on a weekly basis.  Plus 2 days in fall to prep it for winter.

https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/il/glen-ellyn/632-north-main-st/pid_30963397/

(that’s my much more modest house visible at the right of the photo)

Maybe a pool table instead of a pool?

Of course, come to think of it, a customer recently bought a big house where the only thing the previous owner left behind was the pool table.  I guess those things are a bitch to move.


From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com On Behalf Of Jason McKemie
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2020 7:36 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

A customer of mine had a retracting glass roof over the pool area, that was p

Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[Mike Hammett]

Ugh. 


I meant the sun also removes chlorine. 


I'm sick, but there's work to be done... 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: ch...@wbmfg.com 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 11:59:43 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools 

Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools 


So do I want a roof over the pool? I may totally enclose it, but if I choose 
not to and just screen it in, is having the sun on the water a good thing or 
not? 
I think the sun helps algae grow does it not? 




From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 10:50 AM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools 


True. My Texas friends with pools all have them in screened in. 

I've thought about that up here too, through obviously with much heavier 
construction. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Mark - Myakka Technologies"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 11:45:03 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools 

Cameron, 

Most of the pools in FL are screened in. Keeps bugs and other junk out. Don't 
think that would work well up north. I'm not a snow/ice expert, but guessing a 
screened roof would collapse under the weight eventually. 

-- 
Best regards, 
Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com 

Myakka Technologies, Inc. 
www.Myakka.com 

-- 

Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 12:32:33 PM, you wrote: 



I have a 40,000 gal pool. My back yard is surrounded by trees (two 
sides of crepe myrtles, and some kind of broadleaf deciduous trees along the 
back) and I have a large pecan tree that has very high branches that hang over 
the shallow end in one part. The squirrels like to play a game and see how far 
they can chuck half eaten pecans out into the pool. Green pecans sink and 
almost immediately turn brown staining the plaster. Only thing that gets the 
stains off is poring granulated shock on them and letting it sit without the 
filter running for a couple hours. We also loose about a 1/4 to 1/2 inch a day 
in the TX summer. With all the organic material that ends up in my pool, and 
with the water loss and replacing with much less chlorinated city water, I have 
to shock it at least once a week in the summer and add algicide at least once 
per month. The sun also breaks chlorine down quickly. I spend about 350/month 
in the summer in chemicals and have to skim every day and brush it at least 
twice a week. If I had it to do again, I would never, ever own a pool. 


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:20 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies < m...@mailmt.com > 
wrote: 


In FL it is an unwritten rule every house should have an in ground 
pool. We have had one for 20+ years. I do the salt deal. Really like it. Not 
very much maintenance. Of course we don't have to winterize and with the solar 
heaters, we get a good 9 months of use. We had some of our family from the 
mid-west using it when they were down for Thanksgiving. When the kids were 
younger it would be used every day during the summer. Now my wife will use it 
about 4 days a week for low impact exercise when it is warm enough. 

All that being said, I would never rip it out of the ground. With just a bit of 
modification, it would make a great koi pond. 


-- 
Best regards, 
Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com 

Myakka Technologies, Inc. 
www.Myakka.com 

-- 

Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 10:46:45 AM, you wrote: 



A friend of mine owns a company that does nothing but remove in-ground 
pools. 

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:44 AM dave via AF < af@af.afmug.com > wrote: 


Around here the above ground pool doesnt de-value the property due to 
possible removal if wanted. 
In ground pools here sell for much less than a home without one here. 
There are some really nice above ground systems but the only thing I would be 
concerned with is the decking or 
construction to go with it because it would induce more maint unless you went 
with composite 100% 




On 1/20/20 9:03 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote: 


Neighbor’s house finally sold. In ground heated saltwater pool, 
according to the MLS listing. I don’t know about lower maintenance. It seemed 
like they had the pool service truck there on a weekly basis. Plus 2 days in 
fall to prep it for winter. 

https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/il/glen-ellyn/632-north-main-st/pid_30963397/
 

(that’s my much more modest house visible at the right of the photo) 

Maybe a pool table instead of a pool? 

Of course, come to think of it, a customer recently bought a big house where 
the only thing the previous owner left behind was the pool table. I guess those 
things are a bitch to move. 


From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com On Behalf Of Jason McKemie 
Sent: Monday, January 

Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[Bill Prince]

Title: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

  
  
For the first few years, we did not cover the pool, but for the
  last few years we had a roll-up cover. Using that made it easier
  to heat (we had solar panels on the roof), to keep the heat in,
  and reduced chlorine and water evaporation. It also kept it
  cleaner.


If you use the pool a lot, the cover could become a PITA, but if
  you're only using it once a week or so, the cover would be the
  most economical way reduce maintenance.


bp



On 1/21/2020 9:59 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com
  wrote:


  
  
  
  

  So do I want a roof over the pool?  I may totally enclose
it, but if I choose not to and just screen it in, is having
the sun on the water a good thing or not?
  I think the sun helps algae grow does it not?
  

   
  
From: Mike
Hammett 
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 10:50 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users
Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools
  

 
  
  
True. My Texas
  friends with pools all have them in screened in.
  
  I've thought about that up here too, through obviously
  with much heavier construction.
  
  

-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent
  Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP

  
  

  
  
  From: "Mark
- Myakka Technologies" 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"

Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 11:45:03 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

Cameron,
  
  Most of the pools in FL are screened in.  Keeps bugs
  and other junk out.  Don't think that would work well
  up north.  I'm not a snow/ice expert, but guessing a
  screened roof would collapse under the weight
  eventually. 
  
  --
  Best regards,
  Mark    mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka
  Technologies, Inc.
www.Myakka.com

--
  
  Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 12:32:33 PM, you wrote:
  


  

  
  
  I have a 40,000 gal pool. My
  back yard is surrounded by trees (two sides of
  crepe myrtles, and some kind of broadleaf
  deciduous trees along the back)  and I have a
  large pecan tree that has very high branches
  that hang over the shallow end in one part.
  The squirrels like to play a game and see how
  far they can chuck half eaten pecans out into
  the pool. Green pecans sink and almost
  immediately turn brown staining the plaster.
  Only thing that gets the stains off is poring
  granulated shock on them and letting it sit
  without the filter running for a couple hours.
  We also loose about a 1/4 to 1/2 inch a day in
  the TX summer. With all the organic material
  that ends up in my pool, and with the water
  loss and replacing with much less chlorinated
  city water, I have to shock it at least once a
  week in the summer and add algicide at least
  once per month. The sun also breaks chlorine
  down quickly. I spend about 350/month in the
  summer in chemicals and have to skim every day
  and brush it at least twice a week. If I had
  it to do again, I would never, ever own a
  pool. 
  
  
  On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:20 AM Mark - Myakka
  Technologies  wrote:


  
  

Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[TJ Trout]

Strange that you guys don't have auto fill float valves in your pool to
maintain the water levels...

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 9:59 AM  wrote:

> Had a pool at my last office.  Fully motorized cover.  Just flip the
> switch.
>
> *From:* Cameron Crum
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 21, 2020 10:38 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools
>
> We are talking about a huge cover for that big of a pool. It would require
> probably 3 people to put out and take up. Not practical.
>
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 11:36 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:
>
>> Would not a cover mitigate most of that?
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The Brothers WISP 
>> 
>>
>>
>> 
>> --
>> *From: *"Cameron Crum" 
>> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
>> *Sent: *Tuesday, January 21, 2020 11:32:33 AM
>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools
>>
>> I have a 40,000 gal pool. My back yard is surrounded by trees (two sides
>> of crepe myrtles, and some kind of broadleaf deciduous trees along the
>> back)  and I have a large pecan tree that has very high branches that hang
>> over the shallow end in one part. The squirrels like to play a game and see
>> how far they can chuck half eaten pecans out into the pool. Green pecans
>> sink and almost immediately turn brown staining the plaster. Only thing
>> that gets the stains off is poring granulated shock on them and letting it
>> sit without the filter running for a couple hours. We also loose about a
>> 1/4 to 1/2 inch a day in the TX summer. With all the organic material that
>> ends up in my pool, and with the water loss and replacing with much less
>> chlorinated city water, I have to shock it at least once a week in the
>> summer and add algicide at least once per month. The sun also breaks
>> chlorine down quickly. I spend about 350/month in the summer in chemicals
>> and have to skim every day and brush it at least twice a week. If I had it
>> to do again, I would never, ever own a pool.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:20 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies <
>> m...@mailmt.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In FL it is an unwritten rule every house should have an in ground
>>> pool.  We have had one for 20+ years.  I do the salt deal.  Really like
>>> it.  Not very much maintenance.  Of course we don't have to winterize and
>>> with the solar heaters, we get a good 9 months of use.  We had some of our
>>> family from the mid-west using it when they were down for Thanksgiving.
>>> When the kids were younger it would be used every day during the summer.
>>> Now my wife will use it about 4 days a week for low impact exercise when it
>>> is warm enough.
>>>
>>> All that being said, I would never rip it out of the ground.  With just
>>> a bit of modification, it would make a great koi pond.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Best regards,
>>> Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com
>>>
>>> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
>>> www.Myakka.com
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 10:46:45 AM, you wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> A friend of mine owns a company that does nothing but remove in-ground
>>> pools.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:44 AM dave via AF  wrote:
>>>
>>> Around here the above ground pool doesnt  de-value the property due to
>>> possible removal if wanted.
>>> In ground pools here sell for much less than a home without one here.
>>> There are some really nice above ground systems but the only thing I
>>> would be concerned with is the decking or
>>> construction to go with it because it would induce more maint unless you
>>> went with composite 100%
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/20/20 9:03 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
>>>
>>> Neighbor’s house finally sold.  In ground heated saltwater pool,
>>> according to the MLS listing.  I don’t know about lower maintenance.  It
>>> seemed like they had the pool service truck there on a weekly basis.  Plus
>>> 2 days in fall to prep it for winter.
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/il/glen-ellyn/632-north-main-st/pid_30963397/
>>>
>>> (that’s my much more modest house visible at the right of the photo)
>>>
>>> Maybe a pool table instead of a pool?
>>>
>>> Of course, come to think of it, a customer recently bought a big house
>>> where the only thing the previous owner left behind was the pool table.  I
>>> guess those things are a bitch to move.
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com *On Behalf Of *Jason

Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[Adam Moffett]

Is this some kind of wireless or fiber optic pool?  I think it's weird 
how we can spend all day on this tangent.



On 1/21/2020 2:00 PM, TJ Trout wrote:
Strange that you guys don't have auto fill float valves in your pool 
to maintain the water levels...


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 9:59 AM > wrote:


Had a pool at my last office.  Fully motorized cover.  Just flip
the switch.
*From:* Cameron Crum
*Sent:* Tuesday, January 21, 2020 10:38 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools
We are talking about a huge cover for that big of a pool. It would
require probably 3 people to put out and take up. Not practical.
On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 11:36 AM Mike Hammett 
wrote:

Would not a cover mitigate most of that?



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 


Midwest Internet Exchange 


The Brothers WISP 





*From: *"Cameron Crum" 
*To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
*Sent: *Tuesday, January 21, 2020 11:32:33 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

I have a 40,000 gal pool. My back yard is surrounded by trees
(two sides of crepe myrtles, and some kind of broadleaf
deciduous trees along the back) and I have a large pecan tree
that has very high branches that hang over the shallow end in
one part. The squirrels like to play a game and see how far
they can chuck half eaten pecans out into the pool. Green
pecans sink and almost immediately turn brown staining the
plaster. Only thing that gets the stains off is poring
granulated shock on them and letting it sit without the filter
running for a couple hours. We also loose about a 1/4 to 1/2
inch a day in the TX summer. With all the organic material
that ends up in my pool, and with the water loss and replacing
with much less chlorinated city water, I have to shock it at
least once a week in the summer and add algicide at least once
per month. The sun also breaks chlorine down quickly. I spend
about 350/month in the summer in chemicals and have to skim
every day and brush it at least twice a week. If I had it to
do again, I would never, ever own a pool.
On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:20 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies
 wrote:

In FL it is an unwritten rule every house should have an
in ground pool.  We have had one for 20+ years.  I do the
salt deal. Really like it.  Not very much maintenance.  Of
course we don't have to winterize and with the solar
heaters, we get a good 9 months of use.  We had some of
our family from the mid-west using it when they were down
for Thanksgiving.  When the kids were younger it would be
used every day during the summer.  Now my wife will use it
about 4 days a week for low impact exercise when it is
warm enough.

All that being said, I would never rip it out of the
ground.  With just a bit of modification, it would make a
great koi pond.


--
Best regards,
Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.Myakka.com 

--

Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 10:46:45 AM, you wrote:


A friend of mine owns a company that does nothing but
remove in-ground pools.

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:44 AM dave via AF
 wrote:

Around here the above ground pool doesnt de-value the
property due to possible removal if wanted.
In ground pools here sell for much less than a home
without one here.
There are some really nice above ground systems but the
only thing I would be concerned with is the decking or
construction to go with it because it would induce more
maint unless you went with composite 100%




On 1/20/20 9:03 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

Neighbor’s house finally sold.  In ground heated
saltwater pool, according to the MLS listing.  I don’t
know 

Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[chuck]

Years ago we had some kind of goofy thread that went for something like 61 
days.   

From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 1:08 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

Is this some kind of wireless or fiber optic pool?  I think it's weird how we 
can spend all day on this tangent.



On 1/21/2020 2:00 PM, TJ Trout wrote:

  Strange that you guys don't have auto fill float valves in your pool to 
maintain the water levels...

  On Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 9:59 AM  wrote:

Had a pool at my last office.  Fully motorized cover.  Just flip the 
switch.  

From: Cameron Crum 
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 10:38 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

We are talking about a huge cover for that big of a pool. It would require 
probably 3 people to put out and take up. Not practical.

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 11:36 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:

  Would not a cover mitigate most of that?




  -
  Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions

  Midwest Internet Exchange

  The Brothers WISP






--

  From: "Cameron Crum" 
  To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
  Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 11:32:33 AM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools


  I have a 40,000 gal pool. My back yard is surrounded by trees (two sides 
of crepe myrtles, and some kind of broadleaf deciduous trees along the back)  
and I have a large pecan tree that has very high branches that hang over the 
shallow end in one part. The squirrels like to play a game and see how far they 
can chuck half eaten pecans out into the pool. Green pecans sink and almost 
immediately turn brown staining the plaster. Only thing that gets the stains 
off is poring granulated shock on them and letting it sit without the filter 
running for a couple hours. We also loose about a 1/4 to 1/2 inch a day in the 
TX summer. With all the organic material that ends up in my pool, and with the 
water loss and replacing with much less chlorinated city water, I have to shock 
it at least once a week in the summer and add algicide at least once per month. 
The sun also breaks chlorine down quickly. I spend about 350/month in the 
summer in chemicals and have to skim every day and brush it at least twice a 
week. If I had it to do again, I would never, ever own a pool.  


  On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:20 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies 
 wrote:

In FL it is an unwritten rule every house should have an in ground 
pool.  We have had one for 20+ years.  I do the salt deal.  Really like it.  
Not very much maintenance.  Of course we don't have to winterize and with the 
solar heaters, we get a good 9 months of use.  We had some of our family from 
the mid-west using it when they were down for Thanksgiving.  When the kids were 
younger it would be used every day during the summer.  Now my wife will use it 
about 4 days a week for low impact exercise when it is warm enough. 

All that being said, I would never rip it out of the ground.  With just 
a bit of modification, it would make a great koi pond.


--
Best regards,
Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.Myakka.com

--

Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 10:46:45 AM, you wrote:


 A friend of mine owns a company that does nothing but remove 
in-ground pools.

  On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:44 AM dave via AF  
wrote:

   Around here the above ground pool doesnt  de-value the 
property due to possible removal if wanted. 
In ground pools here sell for much less than a home without 
one here. 
There are some really nice above ground systems but the 
only thing I would be concerned with is the decking or
construction to go with it because it would induce more 
maint unless you went with composite 100%




On 1/20/20 9:03 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

 Neighbor’s house finally sold.  In ground heated 
saltwater pool, according to the MLS listing.  I don’t know about lower 
maintenance.  It seemed like they had the pool service truck there on a weekly 
basis.  Plus 2 days in fall to prep it for winter.

  
https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/il/glen-ellyn/632-north-main-st/pid_30963397/

  (that’s my much more modest house visible at the 
right of the photo)

  Maybe a pool table instead of a pool?

  Of course, come to think of it, a customer recently 
bought a big house where the only thing the previous owner left behind was the 
pool table.  I guess those things are a bitch to move.


  From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com On Behalf Of 
Jaso

Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

[Seth Mattinen]

On 1/21/20 12:08, Adam Moffett wrote:
Is this some kind of wireless or fiber optic pool?  I think it's weird 
how we can spend all day on this tangent.



That's why this list is the best.

--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Ryan Ray]

I'm still very wary of this. There seems to be a lot of over-promising
under delivering. In typical Elon fashion, no details but the world runs
with it and puts out all these data models that make it seem like the
second coming of christ. Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and they are
starting in 2020, but there's no pictures or details. How is that even
possible? We're buying 450b at a more expensive cost and there ain't no
phased antenna with motors in it.

Then all you read online is the cult following of spaceslax who takes a
twitter post as gospel and just keeps perpetuating the same tired
information.



On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:02 AM Bill Prince  wrote:

> If the SpaceX Starlink system works at 50% of what it's hyped, it will
> become the future of rural internet. Urban is still going to be
> dominated (eventually) by fiber for the foreseeable future. Higher speed
> wireless will be very, very local.
>
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 1/19/2020 6:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
> > I don’t know why, but this evening got me thinking about broadband
> delivery over the past 30 years and the future of broadband.
> >
> > First we had nothing, then along came dial-up and that was amazing and
> many companies sprung up offering the service. Giants like AOL and Prodigy.
> >
> > Then DSL and Cable came along as well as wireless and dial-up has all
> but died.
> >
> > Now DSL is basically dead, cable and wireless have gone through several
> iterations and we are seeing a push to fiber.
> >
> > What’s the possibility in the next 10 years cable and wireless will be
> dead technologies with fiber at the fore front?  Possibly.
> >
> > But then. is fiber really future proof?  We are talking about
> investing hundreds of millions into fiber infrastructure, because it’s “the
> future”. But is it?
> >
> > So far every technology delivery mechanism to date has become obsolete
> in as little as 6-10 years.
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

[AFMUG] Average bandwidth per user

[fiberrun]

Hello all!

Since the holidays bandwidth usage seems to have been picking up. Average 
bandwidth usage during primetime is now over 4 Mbps using a 5 minute average 
and bursts are over 6.5 Mbps. Seems people like their new toys and streaming 
services. I also see more and more co-ordinated events where everybody and 
their dog pile on and do their best to max out their interfaces.

How's everybody else doing?

Jared

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Carl Peterson]

"Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and they are starting in 2020, but
there's no pictures or details. How is that even possible? We're buying
450b at a more expensive cost and there ain't no phased antenna with motors
in it."

The question is what do the parts or materials actually cost in large
quantities?  Cambium makes its money off of selling 450s.  They aren't
interested in selling them to you as cheap as possible so you can make more
recurring revenue.  SpaceX wants a piece of that 30B recurring revenue and
in order to do that they need a ~$200 CPE that users could install
themselves or have joe taskrabbit install for them with nothing more then
a screwdriver and perhaps a cordless drill.  Elon has shown time and time
again that he is willing to go all in any time the pot odds are good. There
are some great pot odds here and I wouldn't bet against Elon, at least in
the long run.

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 2:19 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:

> I'm still very wary of this. There seems to be a lot of over-promising
> under delivering. In typical Elon fashion, no details but the world runs
> with it and puts out all these data models that make it seem like the
> second coming of christ. Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and they are
> starting in 2020, but there's no pictures or details. How is that even
> possible? We're buying 450b at a more expensive cost and there ain't no
> phased antenna with motors in it.
>
> Then all you read online is the cult following of spaceslax who takes a
> twitter post as gospel and just keeps perpetuating the same tired
> information.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:02 AM Bill Prince  wrote:
>
>> If the SpaceX Starlink system works at 50% of what it's hyped, it will
>> become the future of rural internet. Urban is still going to be
>> dominated (eventually) by fiber for the foreseeable future. Higher speed
>> wireless will be very, very local.
>>
>>
>> bp
>> 
>>
>> On 1/19/2020 6:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
>> > I don’t know why, but this evening got me thinking about broadband
>> delivery over the past 30 years and the future of broadband.
>> >
>> > First we had nothing, then along came dial-up and that was amazing and
>> many companies sprung up offering the service. Giants like AOL and Prodigy.
>> >
>> > Then DSL and Cable came along as well as wireless and dial-up has all
>> but died.
>> >
>> > Now DSL is basically dead, cable and wireless have gone through several
>> iterations and we are seeing a push to fiber.
>> >
>> > What’s the possibility in the next 10 years cable and wireless will be
>> dead technologies with fiber at the fore front?  Possibly.
>> >
>> > But then. is fiber really future proof?  We are talking about
>> investing hundreds of millions into fiber infrastructure, because it’s “the
>> future”. But is it?
>> >
>> > So far every technology delivery mechanism to date has become obsolete
>> in as little as 6-10 years.
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>


-- 

Carl Peterson

*PORT NETWORKS*

401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553

Baltimore, MD 21202

(410) 637-3707
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Mike Hammett]

I would bet that SpaceX will collect more money from HFT than from anything 
else they sell via Starlink for a long time. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Carl Peterson"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 2:45:28 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] The Future 


"Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and they are starting in 2020, but 
there's no pictures or details. How is that even possible? We're buying 450b at 
a more expensive cost and there ain't no phased antenna with motors in it." 


The question is what do the parts or materials actually cost in large 
quantities? Cambium makes its money off of selling 450s. They aren't interested 
in selling them to you as cheap as possible so you can make more recurring 
revenue. SpaceX wants a piece of that 30B recurring revenue and in order to do 
that they need a ~$200 CPE that users could install themselves or have joe 
taskrabbit install for them with nothing more then a screwdriver and perhaps a 
cordless drill. Elon has shown time and time again that he is willing to go all 
in any time the pot odds are good. There are some great pot odds here and I 
wouldn't bet against Elon, at least in the long run. 


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 2:19 PM Ryan Ray < ryan...@gmail.com > wrote: 




I'm still very wary of this. There seems to be a lot of over-promising under 
delivering. In typical Elon fashion, no details but the world runs with it and 
puts out all these data models that make it seem like the second coming of 
christ. Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and they are starting in 2020, 
but there's no pictures or details. How is that even possible? We're buying 
450b at a more expensive cost and there ain't no phased antenna with motors in 
it. 


Then all you read online is the cult following of spaceslax who takes a twitter 
post as gospel and just keeps perpetuating the same tired information. 







On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:02 AM Bill Prince < part15...@gmail.com > wrote: 


If the SpaceX Starlink system works at 50% of what it's hyped, it will 
become the future of rural internet. Urban is still going to be 
dominated (eventually) by fiber for the foreseeable future. Higher speed 
wireless will be very, very local. 


bp 
 

On 1/19/2020 6:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote: 
> I don’t know why, but this evening got me thinking about broadband delivery 
> over the past 30 years and the future of broadband. 
> 
> First we had nothing, then along came dial-up and that was amazing and many 
> companies sprung up offering the service. Giants like AOL and Prodigy. 
> 
> Then DSL and Cable came along as well as wireless and dial-up has all but 
> died. 
> 
> Now DSL is basically dead, cable and wireless have gone through several 
> iterations and we are seeing a push to fiber. 
> 
> What’s the possibility in the next 10 years cable and wireless will be dead 
> technologies with fiber at the fore front? Possibly. 
> 
> But then. is fiber really future proof? We are talking about investing 
> hundreds of millions into fiber infrastructure, because it’s “the future”. 
> But is it? 
> 
> So far every technology delivery mechanism to date has become obsolete in as 
> little as 6-10 years. 

-- 
AF mailing list 
AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 


-- 
AF mailing list 
AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 





-- 



Carl Peterson 

PORT NETWORKS 
401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553 
Baltimore, MD 21202 
(410) 637-3707 
-- 
AF mailing list 
AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Matt Hoppes]

OK but are these phased array antennas like beam steering well they have 
stepper motors in them? Because the moment you add motors you had parts that 
are going to break sooner or later.

Plus if we really think that a self install is going to work for a customer I 
think we are giving the customer way too much credit.

First of all a cable still Hass to be run to the antenna and put through the 
wall of the house, secondly we all know customers are going to try to install 
it in the worst possible location, under a tree, under a deck, or someplace 
that has great aesthetic value but terrible propagation to the night sky.

> On Jan 21, 2020, at 3:45 PM, Carl Peterson  wrote:
> 
> "Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and they are starting in 2020, but 
> there's no pictures or details. How is that even possible? We're buying 450b 
> at a more expensive cost and there ain't no phased antenna with motors in 
> it."  
> 
> The question is what do the parts or materials actually cost in large 
> quantities?  Cambium makes its money off of selling 450s.  They aren't 
> interested in selling them to you as cheap as possible so you can make more 
> recurring revenue.  SpaceX wants a piece of that 30B recurring revenue and in 
> order to do that they need a ~$200 CPE that users could install themselves or 
> have joe taskrabbit install for them with nothing more then a screwdriver and 
> perhaps a cordless drill.  Elon has shown time and time again that he is 
> willing to go all in any time the pot odds are good. There are some great pot 
> odds here and I wouldn't bet against Elon, at least in the long run.
> 
>> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 2:19 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>> I'm still very wary of this. There seems to be a lot of over-promising under 
>> delivering. In typical Elon fashion, no details but the world runs with it 
>> and puts out all these data models that make it seem like the second coming 
>> of christ. Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and they are starting in 
>> 2020, but there's no pictures or details. How is that even possible? We're 
>> buying 450b at a more expensive cost and there ain't no phased antenna with 
>> motors in it. 
>> 
>> Then all you read online is the cult following of spaceslax who takes a 
>> twitter post as gospel and just keeps perpetuating the same tired 
>> information. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:02 AM Bill Prince  wrote:
>>> If the SpaceX Starlink system works at 50% of what it's hyped, it will 
>>> become the future of rural internet. Urban is still going to be 
>>> dominated (eventually) by fiber for the foreseeable future. Higher speed 
>>> wireless will be very, very local.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> bp
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 1/19/2020 6:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
>>> > I don’t know why, but this evening got me thinking about broadband 
>>> > delivery over the past 30 years and the future of broadband.
>>> >
>>> > First we had nothing, then along came dial-up and that was amazing and 
>>> > many companies sprung up offering the service. Giants like AOL and 
>>> > Prodigy.
>>> >
>>> > Then DSL and Cable came along as well as wireless and dial-up has all but 
>>> > died.
>>> >
>>> > Now DSL is basically dead, cable and wireless have gone through several 
>>> > iterations and we are seeing a push to fiber.
>>> >
>>> > What’s the possibility in the next 10 years cable and wireless will be 
>>> > dead technologies with fiber at the fore front?  Possibly.
>>> >
>>> > But then. is fiber really future proof?  We are talking about 
>>> > investing hundreds of millions into fiber infrastructure, because it’s 
>>> > “the future”. But is it?
>>> >
>>> > So far every technology delivery mechanism to date has become obsolete in 
>>> > as little as 6-10 years.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>> -- 
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> 
> 
> -- 
> Carl Peterson
> 
> PORT NETWORKS
> 
> 401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553
> 
> Baltimore, MD 21202
> 
> (410) 637-3707 
> 
> -- 
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Mike Hammett]

I would be surprised if there were motors in there. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Matt Hoppes"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 2:49:50 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] The Future 



OK but are these phased array antennas like beam steering well they have 
stepper motors in them? Because the moment you add motors you had parts that 
are going to break sooner or later. 

Plus if we really think that a self install is going to work for a customer I 
think we are giving the customer way too much credit. 

First of all a cable still Hass to be run to the antenna and put through the 
wall of the house, secondly we all know customers are going to try to install 
it in the worst possible location, under a tree, under a deck, or someplace 
that has great aesthetic value but terrible propagation to the night sky. 



On Jan 21, 2020, at 3:45 PM, Carl Peterson < cpeter...@portnetworks.com > 
wrote: 





"Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and they are starting in 2020, but 
there's no pictures or details. How is that even possible? We're buying 450b at 
a more expensive cost and there ain't no phased antenna with motors in it." 


The question is what do the parts or materials actually cost in large 
quantities? Cambium makes its money off of selling 450s. They aren't interested 
in selling them to you as cheap as possible so you can make more recurring 
revenue. SpaceX wants a piece of that 30B recurring revenue and in order to do 
that they need a ~$200 CPE that users could install themselves or have joe 
taskrabbit install for them with nothing more then a screwdriver and perhaps a 
cordless drill. Elon has shown time and time again that he is willing to go all 
in any time the pot odds are good. There are some great pot odds here and I 
wouldn't bet against Elon, at least in the long run. 


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 2:19 PM Ryan Ray < ryan...@gmail.com > wrote: 




I'm still very wary of this. There seems to be a lot of over-promising under 
delivering. In typical Elon fashion, no details but the world runs with it and 
puts out all these data models that make it seem like the second coming of 
christ. Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and they are starting in 2020, 
but there's no pictures or details. How is that even possible? We're buying 
450b at a more expensive cost and there ain't no phased antenna with motors in 
it. 


Then all you read online is the cult following of spaceslax who takes a twitter 
post as gospel and just keeps perpetuating the same tired information. 







On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:02 AM Bill Prince < part15...@gmail.com > wrote: 


If the SpaceX Starlink system works at 50% of what it's hyped, it will 
become the future of rural internet. Urban is still going to be 
dominated (eventually) by fiber for the foreseeable future. Higher speed 
wireless will be very, very local. 


bp 
 

On 1/19/2020 6:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote: 
> I don’t know why, but this evening got me thinking about broadband delivery 
> over the past 30 years and the future of broadband. 
> 
> First we had nothing, then along came dial-up and that was amazing and many 
> companies sprung up offering the service. Giants like AOL and Prodigy. 
> 
> Then DSL and Cable came along as well as wireless and dial-up has all but 
> died. 
> 
> Now DSL is basically dead, cable and wireless have gone through several 
> iterations and we are seeing a push to fiber. 
> 
> What’s the possibility in the next 10 years cable and wireless will be dead 
> technologies with fiber at the fore front? Possibly. 
> 
> But then. is fiber really future proof? We are talking about investing 
> hundreds of millions into fiber infrastructure, because it’s “the future”. 
> But is it? 
> 
> So far every technology delivery mechanism to date has become obsolete in as 
> little as 6-10 years. 

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PORT NETWORKS 
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Baltimore, MD 21202 
(410) 637-3707 




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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[fiberrun]

On Tuesday, January 21, 2020 Mike Hammett wrote:
> I would bet that SpaceX will collect more money from HFT than from anything 
> else they sell via Starlink for a long time.
  Starlink has yet to demonstrate that they can hit latencies required for HFT.

  My money is on backhaul to sites without good wireline options.

  Jared

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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Mike Hammett]

SpaceX hasn't demonstrated it, no, but I've seen estimates showing it cut NYC - 
London latency by one third. 

~45 milliseconds instead of ~60 milliseconds. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: fiber...@mail.com 
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 3:03:01 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] The Future 

On Tuesday, January 21, 2020 Mike Hammett wrote: 
> I would bet that SpaceX will collect more money from HFT than from anything 
> else they sell via Starlink for a long time. 
Starlink has yet to demonstrate that they can hit latencies required for HFT. 

My money is on backhaul to sites without good wireline options. 

Jared 

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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Bill Prince]

  
  
With the number they are expecting to install, it almost doesn't
  matter what the actual cost is. I doubt there will be any moving
  parts either.
They now have something on the order of 170 birds in orbit, with
  another 60 due in another week or so. The first 50 were
  prototypes, so I would expect something on the order of 170-180
  "working" birds by the  end of January. Based on what I've read,
  they will need a minimum of 300 to get the most basic service
  level working.  If they keep up their every 2-3 week launch
  schedule, they may have their 300 by the end of February or
  mid-March.
We shall see.


bp



On 1/21/2020 12:45 PM, Carl Peterson
  wrote:


  
  "Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and they
are starting in 2020, but there's no pictures or details. How is
that even possible? We're buying 450b at a more expensive cost
and there ain't no phased antenna with motors in it."  


The question is what do the parts or materials
  actually cost in large quantities?  Cambium makes its money
  off of selling 450s.  They aren't interested in selling them
  to you as cheap as possible so you can make more recurring
  revenue.  SpaceX wants a piece of that 30B recurring revenue
  and in order to do that they need a ~$200 CPE that users could
  install themselves or have joe taskrabbit install for them
  with nothing more then a screwdriver and perhaps a cordless
  drill.  Elon has shown time and time again that he is willing
  to go all in any time the pot odds are good. There are some
  great pot odds here and I wouldn't bet against Elon, at least
  in the long run.    
  
  
  
On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 2:19
  PM Ryan Ray  wrote:


  
I'm still very wary of this. There seems to be a lot of
  over-promising under delivering. In typical Elon fashion,
  no details but the world runs with it and puts out all
  these data models that make it seem like the second coming
  of christ. Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and
  they are starting in 2020, but there's no pictures or
  details. How is that even possible? We're buying 450b at a
  more expensive cost and there ain't no phased antenna with
  motors in it. 


Then all you read online is the cult following of
  spaceslax who takes a twitter post as gospel and just
  keeps perpetuating the same tired information. 





  
  
  
On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at
  10:02 AM Bill Prince 
  wrote:

If the SpaceX Starlink
  system works at 50% of what it's hyped, it will 
  become the future of rural internet. Urban is still going
  to be 
  dominated (eventually) by fiber for the foreseeable
  future. Higher speed 
  wireless will be very, very local.
  
  
  bp
  
  
  On 1/19/2020 6:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
  > I don’t know why, but this evening got me thinking
  about broadband delivery over the past 30 years and the
  future of broadband.
  >
  > First we had nothing, then along came dial-up and
  that was amazing and many companies sprung up offering the
  service. Giants like AOL and Prodigy.
  >
  > Then DSL and Cable came along as well as wireless and
  dial-up has all but died.
  >
  > Now DSL is basically dead, cable and wireless have
  gone through several iterations and we are seeing a push
  to fiber.
  >
  > What’s the possibility in the next 10 years cable and
  wireless will be dead technologies with fiber at the fore
  front?  Possibly.
  >
  > But then. is fiber really future proof?  We are
  talking about investing hundreds of millions into fiber
  infrastructure, because it’s “the future”. But is it?
  >
  > So far every technology delivery mechanism to date
  has become obsolete in as little as 6-10 years.
  
  -- 
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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Mathew Howard]

Yeah... if they do try to go with the self install model, I would bet
they'll abandon that idea pretty quickly... just like everybody else has.

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 2:50 PM Matt Hoppes <
mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:

> OK but are these phased array antennas like beam steering well they have
> stepper motors in them? Because the moment you add motors you had parts
> that are going to break sooner or later.
>
> Plus if we really think that a self install is going to work for a
> customer I think we are giving the customer way too much credit.
>
> First of all a cable still Hass to be run to the antenna and put through
> the wall of the house, secondly we all know customers are going to try to
> install it in the worst possible location, under a tree, under a deck, or
> someplace that has great aesthetic value but terrible propagation to the
> night sky.
>
> On Jan 21, 2020, at 3:45 PM, Carl Peterson 
> wrote:
>
> "Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and they are starting in 2020, but
> there's no pictures or details. How is that even possible? We're buying
> 450b at a more expensive cost and there ain't no phased antenna with motors
> in it."
>
> The question is what do the parts or materials actually cost in large
> quantities?  Cambium makes its money off of selling 450s.  They aren't
> interested in selling them to you as cheap as possible so you can make more
> recurring revenue.  SpaceX wants a piece of that 30B recurring revenue and
> in order to do that they need a ~$200 CPE that users could install
> themselves or have joe taskrabbit install for them with nothing more then
> a screwdriver and perhaps a cordless drill.  Elon has shown time and time
> again that he is willing to go all in any time the pot odds are good. There
> are some great pot odds here and I wouldn't bet against Elon, at least in
> the long run.
>
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 2:19 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>
>> I'm still very wary of this. There seems to be a lot of over-promising
>> under delivering. In typical Elon fashion, no details but the world runs
>> with it and puts out all these data models that make it seem like the
>> second coming of christ. Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and they are
>> starting in 2020, but there's no pictures or details. How is that even
>> possible? We're buying 450b at a more expensive cost and there ain't no
>> phased antenna with motors in it.
>>
>> Then all you read online is the cult following of spaceslax who takes a
>> twitter post as gospel and just keeps perpetuating the same tired
>> information.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:02 AM Bill Prince  wrote:
>>
>>> If the SpaceX Starlink system works at 50% of what it's hyped, it will
>>> become the future of rural internet. Urban is still going to be
>>> dominated (eventually) by fiber for the foreseeable future. Higher speed
>>> wireless will be very, very local.
>>>
>>>
>>> bp
>>> 
>>>
>>> On 1/19/2020 6:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
>>> > I don’t know why, but this evening got me thinking about broadband
>>> delivery over the past 30 years and the future of broadband.
>>> >
>>> > First we had nothing, then along came dial-up and that was amazing and
>>> many companies sprung up offering the service. Giants like AOL and Prodigy.
>>> >
>>> > Then DSL and Cable came along as well as wireless and dial-up has all
>>> but died.
>>> >
>>> > Now DSL is basically dead, cable and wireless have gone through
>>> several iterations and we are seeing a push to fiber.
>>> >
>>> > What’s the possibility in the next 10 years cable and wireless will be
>>> dead technologies with fiber at the fore front?  Possibly.
>>> >
>>> > But then. is fiber really future proof?  We are talking about
>>> investing hundreds of millions into fiber infrastructure, because it’s “the
>>> future”. But is it?
>>> >
>>> > So far every technology delivery mechanism to date has become obsolete
>>> in as little as 6-10 years.
>>>
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Carl Peterson
>
> *PORT NETWORKS*
>
> 401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553
>
> Baltimore, MD 21202
>
> (410) 637-3707
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Carl Peterson]

HFT won't happen till the next generation of satellites.  I really thought
they would do B2B backhaul to start but it is pretty clear to me that they
are gearing up for residential self installs.  Seems crazy.


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 3:11 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:

> SpaceX hasn't demonstrated it, no, but I've seen estimates showing it cut
> NYC - London latency by one third.
>
> ~45 milliseconds instead of ~60 milliseconds.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *fiber...@mail.com
> *To: *af@af.afmug.com
> *Sent: *Tuesday, January 21, 2020 3:03:01 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] The Future
>
> On Tuesday, January 21, 2020 Mike Hammett wrote:
> > I would bet that SpaceX will collect more money from HFT than from
> anything else they sell via Starlink for a long time.
>   Starlink has yet to demonstrate that they can hit latencies required for
> HFT.
>
>   My money is on backhaul to sites without good wireline options.
>
>   Jared
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>


-- 

Carl Peterson

*PORT NETWORKS*

401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553

Baltimore, MD 21202

(410) 637-3707
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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Jason McKemie]

Customer installed fixed wireless doesn't work well. I'm sure they'll
figure this out too late, I still don't understand why big companies refuse
to learn from other's mistakes.
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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Matt Hoppes]

Because it sounds like a great idea. I have seen numerous companies try this 
and every single time it has failed miserably

> On Jan 21, 2020, at 4:20 PM, Jason McKemie  
> wrote:
> 
> Customer installed fixed wireless doesn't work well. I'm sure they'll figure 
> this out too late, I still don't understand why big companies refuse to learn 
> from other's mistakes.
> -- 
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Carl Peterson]

Ground to LEO isn't fixed wireless.  The "tower" is moving and the client
is roaming.


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 3:21 PM Jason McKemie <
j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote:

> Customer installed fixed wireless doesn't work well. I'm sure they'll
> figure this out too late, I still don't understand why big companies refuse
> to learn from other's mistakes.
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>


-- 

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*PORT NETWORKS*

401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553

Baltimore, MD 21202

(410) 637-3707
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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Mathew Howard]

The CPE end is fixed, in that the antenna is mounted, and doesn't move.

Unless it's something that you can throw on a desk and plug into an outlet,
self install simply isn't realistic.
Dish Network offered a self install option early on (back when they were
only using a single satellite, and it was relatively simple)... they gave
up on that pretty quickly. Heck, we even had a self install option when we
first started doing fixed wireless. It didn't take long to learn a lot of
reasons why that's a bad idea.

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 3:30 PM Carl Peterson 
wrote:

> Ground to LEO isn't fixed wireless.  The "tower" is moving and the client
> is roaming.
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 3:21 PM Jason McKemie <
> j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote:
>
>> Customer installed fixed wireless doesn't work well. I'm sure they'll
>> figure this out too late, I still don't understand why big companies refuse
>> to learn from other's mistakes.
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Carl Peterson
>
> *PORT NETWORKS*
>
> 401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553
>
> Baltimore, MD 21202
>
> (410) 637-3707
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Ryan Ray]

That’s the idea behind the phased antennas though. Once it has a clear line
to the sky, the amount of sats and the motors inside apparently make it a
set and forget type thing.

They’ll still need to run cat5 outside and have a router I assume, but who
knows. Maybe they’ll do some sort of power over coax type deal so it’s an
easy replacement of satellite installs now.

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 1:40 PM Mathew Howard  wrote:

> The CPE end is fixed, in that the antenna is mounted, and doesn't move.
>
> Unless it's something that you can throw on a desk and plug into an
> outlet, self install simply isn't realistic.
> Dish Network offered a self install option early on (back when they were
> only using a single satellite, and it was relatively simple)... they gave
> up on that pretty quickly. Heck, we even had a self install option when we
> first started doing fixed wireless. It didn't take long to learn a lot of
> reasons why that's a bad idea.
>
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 3:30 PM Carl Peterson 
> wrote:
>
>> Ground to LEO isn't fixed wireless.  The "tower" is moving and the client
>> is roaming.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 3:21 PM Jason McKemie <
>> j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Customer installed fixed wireless doesn't work well. I'm sure they'll
>>> figure this out too late, I still don't understand why big companies refuse
>>> to learn from other's mistakes.
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Carl Peterson
>>
>> *PORT NETWORKS*
>>
>> 401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553
>> 
>>
>> 
>>
>> Baltimore, MD 21202
>> 
>>
>> (410) 637-3707
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
> --
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Bill Prince]

  
  
Don't forget they want to run updates on the millions of Tesla
  BEVs that will be roaming around. The CPE is not necessarily
  fixed.


bp



On 1/21/2020 1:39 PM, Mathew Howard
  wrote:


  
  
The CPE end is fixed, in that the antenna is mounted, and
  doesn't move.


Unless it's something that you can throw on a desk and plug
  into an outlet, self install simply isn't realistic.

Dish Network offered a self install option early on (back
  when they were only using a single satellite, and it was
  relatively simple)... they gave up on that pretty quickly.
  Heck, we even had a self install option when we first started
  doing fixed wireless. It didn't take long to learn a lot of
  reasons why that's a bad idea.

  
  
  
On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 3:30
  PM Carl Peterson 
  wrote:


  Ground to LEO isn't fixed wireless.  The
"tower" is moving and the client is roaming.  


  
  
  
On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at
  3:21 PM Jason McKemie 
  wrote:


  Customer installed fixed wireless doesn't
work well. I'm sure they'll figure this out too late, I
still don't understand why big companies refuse to learn
from other's mistakes.
  -- 
  AF mailing list
  AF@af.afmug.com
  http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

  
  
  
  
  -- 
  

  Carl Peterson
  
  PORT NETWORKS
  401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553
  Baltimore, MD 21202
  (410) 637-3707 

  
  -- 
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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Mathew Howard]

Yeah... but a customer's idea of a clear view of the sky, is throwing it
under a bush, and stringing the cable through the goat pen. The only
problem that the phased antenna solves is needing to align it properly, and
that isn't even the biggest problem with self installs.

Sure, there are people that can do it right, but for every one of them
there are three or four who are going to screw something up to the point
that it'll cost more to deal with them than paying somebody to install it.

I assume that they have to be planning on having some kind of professional
installation option, because there is a large number of people who just
aren't going to mount an antenna and run a cable to it, no matter how much
you simplify it.

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 3:54 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:

> That’s the idea behind the phased antennas though. Once it has a clear
> line to the sky, the amount of sats and the motors inside apparently make
> it a set and forget type thing.
>
> They’ll still need to run cat5 outside and have a router I assume, but who
> knows. Maybe they’ll do some sort of power over coax type deal so it’s an
> easy replacement of satellite installs now.
>
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 1:40 PM Mathew Howard 
> wrote:
>
>> The CPE end is fixed, in that the antenna is mounted, and doesn't move.
>>
>> Unless it's something that you can throw on a desk and plug into an
>> outlet, self install simply isn't realistic.
>> Dish Network offered a self install option early on (back when they were
>> only using a single satellite, and it was relatively simple)... they gave
>> up on that pretty quickly. Heck, we even had a self install option when we
>> first started doing fixed wireless. It didn't take long to learn a lot of
>> reasons why that's a bad idea.
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 3:30 PM Carl Peterson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Ground to LEO isn't fixed wireless.  The "tower" is moving and the
>>> client is roaming.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 3:21 PM Jason McKemie <
>>> j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote:
>>>
 Customer installed fixed wireless doesn't work well. I'm sure they'll
 figure this out too late, I still don't understand why big companies refuse
 to learn from other's mistakes.
 --
 AF mailing list
 AF@af.afmug.com
 http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Carl Peterson
>>>
>>> *PORT NETWORKS*
>>>
>>> 401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553
>>> 
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> Baltimore, MD 21202
>>> 
>>>
>>> (410) 637-3707
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Ryan Ray]

https://mobile.twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1214548764054216704

Straight from the gods mouth I guess.

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 12:52 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:

> I would be surprised if there were motors in there.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Matt Hoppes" 
> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> *Sent: *Tuesday, January 21, 2020 2:49:50 PM
>
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] The Future
>
> OK but are these phased array antennas like beam steering well they have
> stepper motors in them? Because the moment you add motors you had parts
> that are going to break sooner or later.
>
> Plus if we really think that a self install is going to work for a
> customer I think we are giving the customer way too much credit.
>
> First of all a cable still Hass to be run to the antenna and put through
> the wall of the house, secondly we all know customers are going to try to
> install it in the worst possible location, under a tree, under a deck, or
> someplace that has great aesthetic value but terrible propagation to the
> night sky.
>
> On Jan 21, 2020, at 3:45 PM, Carl Peterson 
> wrote:
>
> "Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and they are starting in 2020, but
> there's no pictures or details. How is that even possible? We're buying
> 450b at a more expensive cost and there ain't no phased antenna with motors
> in it."
>
> The question is what do the parts or materials actually cost in large
> quantities?  Cambium makes its money off of selling 450s.  They aren't
> interested in selling them to you as cheap as possible so you can make more
> recurring revenue.  SpaceX wants a piece of that 30B recurring revenue and
> in order to do that they need a ~$200 CPE that users could install
> themselves or have joe taskrabbit install for them with nothing more then
> a screwdriver and perhaps a cordless drill.  Elon has shown time and time
> again that he is willing to go all in any time the pot odds are good. There
> are some great pot odds here and I wouldn't bet against Elon, at least in
> the long run.
>
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 2:19 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>
>> I'm still very wary of this. There seems to be a lot of over-promising
>> under delivering. In typical Elon fashion, no details but the world runs
>> with it and puts out all these data models that make it seem like the
>> second coming of christ. Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and they are
>> starting in 2020, but there's no pictures or details. How is that even
>> possible? We're buying 450b at a more expensive cost and there ain't no
>> phased antenna with motors in it.
>>
>> Then all you read online is the cult following of spaceslax who takes a
>> twitter post as gospel and just keeps perpetuating the same tired
>> information.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:02 AM Bill Prince  wrote:
>>
>>> If the SpaceX Starlink system works at 50% of what it's hyped, it will
>>> become the future of rural internet. Urban is still going to be
>>> dominated (eventually) by fiber for the foreseeable future. Higher speed
>>> wireless will be very, very local.
>>>
>>>
>>> bp
>>> 
>>>
>>> On 1/19/2020 6:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
>>> > I don’t know why, but this evening got me thinking about broadband
>>> delivery over the past 30 years and the future of broadband.
>>> >
>>> > First we had nothing, then along came dial-up and that was amazing and
>>> many companies sprung up offering the service. Giants like AOL and Prodigy.
>>> >
>>> > Then DSL and Cable came along as well as wireless and dial-up has all
>>> but died.
>>> >
>>> > Now DSL is basically dead, cable and wireless have gone through
>>> several iterations and we are seeing a push to fiber.
>>> >
>>> > What’s the possibility in the next 10 years cable and wireless will be
>>> dead technologies with fiber at the fore front?  Possibly.
>>> >
>>> > But then. is fiber really future proof?  We are talking about
>>> investing hundreds of millions into fiber infrastructure, because it’s “the
>>> future”. But is it?
>>> >
>>> > So far every technology delivery mechanism to date has become obsolete
>>> in as little as 6-10 years.
>>>
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Carl Peterson
>

Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Robert Andrews]

Somehow they passed a first review from US DOD...   Can't be all smoke 
and mirrors in space...


On 01/21/2020 12:18 PM, Ryan Ray wrote:
I'm still very wary of this. There seems to be a lot of over-promising 
under delivering. In typical Elon fashion, no details but the world runs 
with it and puts out all these data models that make it seem like the 
second coming of christ. Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and they 
are starting in 2020, but there's no pictures or details. How is that 
even possible? We're buying 450b at a more expensive cost and there 
ain't no phased antenna with motors in it.


Then all you read online is the cult following of spaceslax who takes a 
twitter post as gospel and just keeps perpetuating the same tired 
information.




On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:02 AM Bill Prince > wrote:


If the SpaceX Starlink system works at 50% of what it's hyped, it will
become the future of rural internet. Urban is still going to be
dominated (eventually) by fiber for the foreseeable future. Higher
speed
wireless will be very, very local.


bp


On 1/19/2020 6:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
 > I don’t know why, but this evening got me thinking about
broadband delivery over the past 30 years and the future of broadband.
 >
 > First we had nothing, then along came dial-up and that was
amazing and many companies sprung up offering the service. Giants
like AOL and Prodigy.
 >
 > Then DSL and Cable came along as well as wireless and dial-up has
all but died.
 >
 > Now DSL is basically dead, cable and wireless have gone through
several iterations and we are seeing a push to fiber.
 >
 > What’s the possibility in the next 10 years cable and wireless
will be dead technologies with fiber at the fore front?  Possibly.
 >
 > But then. is fiber really future proof?  We are talking about
investing hundreds of millions into fiber infrastructure, because
it’s “the future”. But is it?
 >
 > So far every technology delivery mechanism to date has become
obsolete in as little as 6-10 years.

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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Mike Hammett]

Hrm... 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Ryan Ray"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 4:22:41 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] The Future 



https://mobile.twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1214548764054216704 

Straight from the gods mouth I guess. 



On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 12:52 PM Mike Hammett < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 




I would be surprised if there were motors in there. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 






From: "Matt Hoppes" < mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net > 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" < af@af.afmug.com > 
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 2:49:50 PM 



Subject: Re: [AFMUG] The Future 



OK but are these phased array antennas like beam steering well they have 
stepper motors in them? Because the moment you add motors you had parts that 
are going to break sooner or later. 

Plus if we really think that a self install is going to work for a customer I 
think we are giving the customer way too much credit. 

First of all a cable still Hass to be run to the antenna and put through the 
wall of the house, secondly we all know customers are going to try to install 
it in the worst possible location, under a tree, under a deck, or someplace 
that has great aesthetic value but terrible propagation to the night sky. 



On Jan 21, 2020, at 3:45 PM, Carl Peterson < cpeter...@portnetworks.com > 
wrote: 





"Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and they are starting in 2020, but 
there's no pictures or details. How is that even possible? We're buying 450b at 
a more expensive cost and there ain't no phased antenna with motors in it." 


The question is what do the parts or materials actually cost in large 
quantities? Cambium makes its money off of selling 450s. They aren't interested 
in selling them to you as cheap as possible so you can make more recurring 
revenue. SpaceX wants a piece of that 30B recurring revenue and in order to do 
that they need a ~$200 CPE that users could install themselves or have joe 
taskrabbit install for them with nothing more then a screwdriver and perhaps a 
cordless drill. Elon has shown time and time again that he is willing to go all 
in any time the pot odds are good. There are some great pot odds here and I 
wouldn't bet against Elon, at least in the long run. 


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 2:19 PM Ryan Ray < ryan...@gmail.com > wrote: 




I'm still very wary of this. There seems to be a lot of over-promising under 
delivering. In typical Elon fashion, no details but the world runs with it and 
puts out all these data models that make it seem like the second coming of 
christ. Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and they are starting in 2020, 
but there's no pictures or details. How is that even possible? We're buying 
450b at a more expensive cost and there ain't no phased antenna with motors in 
it. 


Then all you read online is the cult following of spaceslax who takes a twitter 
post as gospel and just keeps perpetuating the same tired information. 







On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:02 AM Bill Prince < part15...@gmail.com > wrote: 


If the SpaceX Starlink system works at 50% of what it's hyped, it will 
become the future of rural internet. Urban is still going to be 
dominated (eventually) by fiber for the foreseeable future. Higher speed 
wireless will be very, very local. 


bp 
 

On 1/19/2020 6:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote: 
> I don’t know why, but this evening got me thinking about broadband delivery 
> over the past 30 years and the future of broadband. 
> 
> First we had nothing, then along came dial-up and that was amazing and many 
> companies sprung up offering the service. Giants like AOL and Prodigy. 
> 
> Then DSL and Cable came along as well as wireless and dial-up has all but 
> died. 
> 
> Now DSL is basically dead, cable and wireless have gone through several 
> iterations and we are seeing a push to fiber. 
> 
> What’s the possibility in the next 10 years cable and wireless will be dead 
> technologies with fiber at the fore front? Possibly. 
> 
> But then. is fiber really future proof? We are talking about investing 
> hundreds of millions into fiber infrastructure, because it’s “the future”. 
> But is it? 
> 
> So far every technology delivery mechanism to date has become obsolete in as 
> little as 6-10 years. 

-- 
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AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 


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-- 



Carl Peterson 

PORT NETWORKS 
401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553 
Baltimore, MD 21202 
(410) 637-3707 




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http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 



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-- 
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A

Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Robert Andrews]

The first version of DirecTV was self install, I know because I did it. 
 They had many many thousands of successful self installs the first two 
years with just a flashing led to guide you.   They are planning on 
having the CPE's integrated into the roofs of Tesla cars in the future. 
 They aren't joking about making this easy and they are great at 
thinking outside the pizza box.   Our runway is getting shorter...


On 01/21/2020 01:39 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:

The CPE end is fixed, in that the antenna is mounted, and doesn't move.

Unless it's something that you can throw on a desk and plug into an 
outlet, self install simply isn't realistic.
Dish Network offered a self install option early on (back when they were 
only using a single satellite, and it was relatively simple)... they 
gave up on that pretty quickly. Heck, we even had a self install option 
when we first started doing fixed wireless. It didn't take long to learn 
a lot of reasons why that's a bad idea.


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 3:30 PM Carl Peterson 
mailto:cpeter...@portnetworks.com>> wrote:


Ground to LEO isn't fixed wireless.  The "tower" is moving and the
client is roaming.


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 3:21 PM Jason McKemie
mailto:j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com>> wrote:

Customer installed fixed wireless doesn't work well. I'm sure
they'll figure this out too late, I still don't understand why
big companies refuse to learn from other's mistakes.
-- 
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http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



-- 


Carl Peterson

*PORT NETWORKS*

401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553

Baltimore, MD 21202

(410) 637-3707

-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com





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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Robert Andrews]

Sounds like the motors only run for the alignment once in a fixed 
location.   After that if the motor dies it wouldn't matter?


On 01/21/2020 02:22 PM, Ryan Ray wrote:

https://mobile.twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1214548764054216704

Straight from the gods mouth I guess.

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 12:52 PM Mike Hammett > wrote:


I would be surprised if there were motors in there.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 


Midwest Internet Exchange 


The Brothers WISP 





*From: *"Matt Hoppes" mailto:mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net>>
*To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Sent: *Tuesday, January 21, 2020 2:49:50 PM

*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] The Future

OK but are these phased array antennas like beam steering well they
have stepper motors in them? Because the moment you add motors you
had parts that are going to break sooner or later.

Plus if we really think that a self install is going to work for a
customer I think we are giving the customer way too much credit.

First of all a cable still Hass to be run to the antenna and put
through the wall of the house, secondly we all know customers are
going to try to install it in the worst possible location, under a
tree, under a deck, or someplace that has great aesthetic value but
terrible propagation to the night sky.

On Jan 21, 2020, at 3:45 PM, Carl Peterson
mailto:cpeter...@portnetworks.com>> wrote:

"Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and they are starting in
2020, but there's no pictures or details. How is that even
possible? We're buying 450b at a more expensive cost and there
ain't no phased antenna with motors in it."

The question is what do the parts or materials actually cost in
large quantities?  Cambium makes its money off of selling 450s. 
They aren't interested in selling them to you as cheap as

possible so you can make more recurring revenue.  SpaceX wants a
piece of that 30B recurring revenue and in order to do that they
need a ~$200 CPE that users could install themselves or have joe
taskrabbit install for them with nothing more then a screwdriver
and perhaps a cordless drill.  Elon has shown time and time
again that he is willing to go all in any time the pot odds are
good. There are some great pot odds here and I wouldn't bet
against Elon, at least in the long run.

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 2:19 PM Ryan Ray mailto:ryan...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I'm still very wary of this. There seems to be a lot of
over-promising under delivering. In typical Elon fashion, no
details but the world runs with it and puts out all these
data models that make it seem like the second coming of
christ. Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and they are
starting in 2020, but there's no pictures or details. How is
that even possible? We're buying 450b at a more expensive
cost and there ain't no phased antenna with motors in it.

Then all you read online is the cult following of spaceslax
who takes a twitter post as gospel and just keeps
perpetuating the same tired information.



On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:02 AM Bill Prince
mailto:part15...@gmail.com>> wrote:

If the SpaceX Starlink system works at 50% of what it's
hyped, it will
become the future of rural internet. Urban is still
going to be
dominated (eventually) by fiber for the foreseeable
future. Higher speed
wireless will be very, very local.


bp


On 1/19/2020 6:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
 > I don’t know why, but this evening got me thinking
about broadband delivery over the past 30 years and the
future of broadband.
 >
 > First we had nothing, then along came dial-up and
that was amazing and many companies sprung up offering
the service. Giants like AOL and Prodigy.
 >
 > Then DSL and Cable came al

Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Ryan Ray]

Can you link that? What exactly were they testing?


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 2:36 PM Robert Andrews 
wrote:

> Somehow they passed a first review from US DOD...   Can't be all smoke
> and mirrors in space...
>
> On 01/21/2020 12:18 PM, Ryan Ray wrote:
> > I'm still very wary of this. There seems to be a lot of over-promising
> > under delivering. In typical Elon fashion, no details but the world runs
> > with it and puts out all these data models that make it seem like the
> > second coming of christ. Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and they
> > are starting in 2020, but there's no pictures or details. How is that
> > even possible? We're buying 450b at a more expensive cost and there
> > ain't no phased antenna with motors in it.
> >
> > Then all you read online is the cult following of spaceslax who takes a
> > twitter post as gospel and just keeps perpetuating the same tired
> > information.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:02 AM Bill Prince  > > wrote:
> >
> > If the SpaceX Starlink system works at 50% of what it's hyped, it
> will
> > become the future of rural internet. Urban is still going to be
> > dominated (eventually) by fiber for the foreseeable future. Higher
> > speed
> > wireless will be very, very local.
> >
> >
> > bp
> > 
> >
> > On 1/19/2020 6:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
> >  > I don’t know why, but this evening got me thinking about
> > broadband delivery over the past 30 years and the future of
> broadband.
> >  >
> >  > First we had nothing, then along came dial-up and that was
> > amazing and many companies sprung up offering the service. Giants
> > like AOL and Prodigy.
> >  >
> >  > Then DSL and Cable came along as well as wireless and dial-up has
> > all but died.
> >  >
> >  > Now DSL is basically dead, cable and wireless have gone through
> > several iterations and we are seeing a push to fiber.
> >  >
> >  > What’s the possibility in the next 10 years cable and wireless
> > will be dead technologies with fiber at the fore front?  Possibly.
> >  >
> >  > But then. is fiber really future proof?  We are talking about
> > investing hundreds of millions into fiber infrastructure, because
> > it’s “the future”. But is it?
> >  >
> >  > So far every technology delivery mechanism to date has become
> > obsolete in as little as 6-10 years.
> >
> > --
> > AF mailing list
> > AF@af.afmug.com 
> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Darin Steffl]

Guys, lots of misinformation here.

They are NO plans nor hints of integrating Starlink antennas into Tesla
cars. It may happen but no one has hinted of this happening. All Tesla's
have 3G or 4G modems already built-in to them along with WiFi. Updates are
sent via WiFi first and after the fleet has received the updates, they
eventually push it to cars via cellular data that haven't updated via WiFi.

Regarding B2B backhaul, I don't believe you'll see this as an option
anytime soon for WISP's or other ISP's. They're targeting residential and
small businesses as well as government contracts. The cost if they did
offer B2B backhaul services would likely be higher than fiber to your
network. Please stop thinking this will happen as I bet it will not.

They may offer a self install option but they'll also have a contractor to
perform most installs for a cost is my guess. Maybe they'll send a self
install kit for X price and if you can't get it working, they'll schedule a
contract install for XX price.

I'll also say that you should not doubt Elon's passion to achieve great
things. I have a Tesla and it's a work of art and by far the best vehicle
I've ever driven. 99% of people who have driven one also think this. Tesla
is succeeding, SpaceX is on it's way there, The Boring Company is half done
with their Vegas tunnel, and Starlink will likely be a viable competitor
for us.

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 4:48 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:

> Can you link that? What exactly were they testing?
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 2:36 PM Robert Andrews 
> wrote:
>
>> Somehow they passed a first review from US DOD...   Can't be all smoke
>> and mirrors in space...
>>
>> On 01/21/2020 12:18 PM, Ryan Ray wrote:
>> > I'm still very wary of this. There seems to be a lot of over-promising
>> > under delivering. In typical Elon fashion, no details but the world
>> runs
>> > with it and puts out all these data models that make it seem like the
>> > second coming of christ. Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and they
>> > are starting in 2020, but there's no pictures or details. How is that
>> > even possible? We're buying 450b at a more expensive cost and there
>> > ain't no phased antenna with motors in it.
>> >
>> > Then all you read online is the cult following of spaceslax who takes a
>> > twitter post as gospel and just keeps perpetuating the same tired
>> > information.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:02 AM Bill Prince > > > wrote:
>> >
>> > If the SpaceX Starlink system works at 50% of what it's hyped, it
>> will
>> > become the future of rural internet. Urban is still going to be
>> > dominated (eventually) by fiber for the foreseeable future. Higher
>> > speed
>> > wireless will be very, very local.
>> >
>> >
>> > bp
>> > 
>> >
>> > On 1/19/2020 6:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
>> >  > I don’t know why, but this evening got me thinking about
>> > broadband delivery over the past 30 years and the future of
>> broadband.
>> >  >
>> >  > First we had nothing, then along came dial-up and that was
>> > amazing and many companies sprung up offering the service. Giants
>> > like AOL and Prodigy.
>> >  >
>> >  > Then DSL and Cable came along as well as wireless and dial-up has
>> > all but died.
>> >  >
>> >  > Now DSL is basically dead, cable and wireless have gone through
>> > several iterations and we are seeing a push to fiber.
>> >  >
>> >  > What’s the possibility in the next 10 years cable and wireless
>> > will be dead technologies with fiber at the fore front?  Possibly.
>> >  >
>> >  > But then. is fiber really future proof?  We are talking about
>> > investing hundreds of millions into fiber infrastructure, because
>> > it’s “the future”. But is it?
>> >  >
>> >  > So far every technology delivery mechanism to date has become
>> > obsolete in as little as 6-10 years.
>> >
>> > --
>> > AF mailing list
>> > AF@af.afmug.com 
>> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>


-- 
Darin Steffl
Minnesota WiFi
www.mnwifi.com
507-634-WiFi
 Like us on Facebook

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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Mathew Howard]

Yeah... there are certainly plenty of people who can do a self install just
fine, but there's a reason that Directv and Dish Network both shifted away
from self installs after the first couple of years... well, several
reasons, including that aligning the antennas got a lot more complicated,
but that probably wasn't the biggest reason.

Plug into the socket and point at the sky sounds good and all, but there's
still the problem of getting the wire from the sock to a place where you
can point at the sky... and keeping the thing where it can point at the
sky. In my experience, most end users don't want to do that.

If they just offer it as an option for people with some clue what they're
doing, perhaps it will work fine.

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 4:41 PM Robert Andrews 
wrote:

> The first version of DirecTV was self install, I know because I did it.
>   They had many many thousands of successful self installs the first two
> years with just a flashing led to guide you.   They are planning on
> having the CPE's integrated into the roofs of Tesla cars in the future.
>   They aren't joking about making this easy and they are great at
> thinking outside the pizza box.   Our runway is getting shorter...
>
> On 01/21/2020 01:39 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
> > The CPE end is fixed, in that the antenna is mounted, and doesn't move.
> >
> > Unless it's something that you can throw on a desk and plug into an
> > outlet, self install simply isn't realistic.
> > Dish Network offered a self install option early on (back when they were
> > only using a single satellite, and it was relatively simple)... they
> > gave up on that pretty quickly. Heck, we even had a self install option
> > when we first started doing fixed wireless. It didn't take long to learn
> > a lot of reasons why that's a bad idea.
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 3:30 PM Carl Peterson
> > mailto:cpeter...@portnetworks.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Ground to LEO isn't fixed wireless.  The "tower" is moving and the
> > client is roaming.
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 3:21 PM Jason McKemie
> >  > > wrote:
> >
> > Customer installed fixed wireless doesn't work well. I'm sure
> > they'll figure this out too late, I still don't understand why
> > big companies refuse to learn from other's mistakes.
> > --
> > AF mailing list
> > AF@af.afmug.com 
> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Carl Peterson
> >
> > *PORT NETWORKS*
> >
> > 401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553
> >
> > Baltimore, MD 21202
> >
> > (410) 637-3707
> >
> > --
> > AF mailing list
> > AF@af.afmug.com 
> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
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> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Mike Hammett]

Re: B2B backhaul services, I can't imagine Musk is stupid enough to not have an 
HFT service. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Darin Steffl"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 4:56:41 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] The Future 


Guys, lots of misinformation here. 


They are NO plans nor hints of integrating Starlink antennas into Tesla cars. 
It may happen but no one has hinted of this happening. All Tesla's have 3G or 
4G modems already built-in to them along with WiFi. Updates are sent via WiFi 
first and after the fleet has received the updates, they eventually push it to 
cars via cellular data that haven't updated via WiFi. 


Regarding B2B backhaul, I don't believe you'll see this as an option anytime 
soon for WISP's or other ISP's. They're targeting residential and small 
businesses as well as government contracts. The cost if they did offer B2B 
backhaul services would likely be higher than fiber to your network. Please 
stop thinking this will happen as I bet it will not. 


They may offer a self install option but they'll also have a contractor to 
perform most installs for a cost is my guess. Maybe they'll send a self install 
kit for X price and if you can't get it working, they'll schedule a contract 
install for XX price. 


I'll also say that you should not doubt Elon's passion to achieve great things. 
I have a Tesla and it's a work of art and by far the best vehicle I've ever 
driven. 99% of people who have driven one also think this. Tesla is succeeding, 
SpaceX is on it's way there, The Boring Company is half done with their Vegas 
tunnel, and Starlink will likely be a viable competitor for us. 


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 4:48 PM Ryan Ray < ryan...@gmail.com > wrote: 




Can you link that? What exactly were they testing? 





On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 2:36 PM Robert Andrews < i...@avantwireless.com > 
wrote: 


Somehow they passed a first review from US DOD... Can't be all smoke 
and mirrors in space... 

On 01/21/2020 12:18 PM, Ryan Ray wrote: 
> I'm still very wary of this. There seems to be a lot of over-promising 
> under delivering. In typical Elon fashion, no details but the world runs 
> with it and puts out all these data models that make it seem like the 
> second coming of christ. Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and they 
> are starting in 2020, but there's no pictures or details. How is that 
> even possible? We're buying 450b at a more expensive cost and there 
> ain't no phased antenna with motors in it. 
> 
> Then all you read online is the cult following of spaceslax who takes a 
> twitter post as gospel and just keeps perpetuating the same tired 
> information. 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:02 AM Bill Prince < part15...@gmail.com 
> > wrote: 
> 
> If the SpaceX Starlink system works at 50% of what it's hyped, it will 
> become the future of rural internet. Urban is still going to be 
> dominated (eventually) by fiber for the foreseeable future. Higher 
> speed 
> wireless will be very, very local. 
> 
> 
> bp 
>  
> 
> On 1/19/2020 6:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote: 
> > I don’t know why, but this evening got me thinking about 
> broadband delivery over the past 30 years and the future of broadband. 
> > 
> > First we had nothing, then along came dial-up and that was 
> amazing and many companies sprung up offering the service. Giants 
> like AOL and Prodigy. 
> > 
> > Then DSL and Cable came along as well as wireless and dial-up has 
> all but died. 
> > 
> > Now DSL is basically dead, cable and wireless have gone through 
> several iterations and we are seeing a push to fiber. 
> > 
> > What’s the possibility in the next 10 years cable and wireless 
> will be dead technologies with fiber at the fore front? Possibly. 
> > 
> > But then. is fiber really future proof? We are talking about 
> investing hundreds of millions into fiber infrastructure, because 
> it’s “the future”. But is it? 
> > 
> > So far every technology delivery mechanism to date has become 
> obsolete in as little as 6-10 years. 
> 
> -- 
> AF mailing list 
> AF@af.afmug.com  
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 
> 
> 
> 

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-- 


Darin Steffl 
Minnesota WiFi 
www.mnwifi.com 
507-634-WiFi 
Like us on Facebook 
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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Nate Burke]

Everything is WIFI Now, it probably has a WIFI AP built in, and just 
needs a power cord.


On 1/21/2020 4:57 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
Yeah... there are certainly plenty of people who can do a self install 
just fine, but there's a reason that Directv and Dish Network both 
shifted away from self installs after the first couple of years... 
well, several reasons, including that aligning the antennas got a lot 
more complicated, but that probably wasn't the biggest reason.


Plug into the socket and point at the sky sounds good and all, but 
there's still the problem of getting the wire from the sock to a place 
where you can point at the sky... and keeping the thing where it can 
point at the sky. In my experience, most end users don't want to do that.


If they just offer it as an option for people with some clue what 
they're doing, perhaps it will work fine.


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 4:41 PM Robert Andrews > wrote:


The first version of DirecTV was self install, I know because I
did it.
  They had many many thousands of successful self installs the
first two
years with just a flashing led to guide you.   They are planning on
having the CPE's integrated into the roofs of Tesla cars in the
future.
  They aren't joking about making this easy and they are great at
thinking outside the pizza box.   Our runway is getting shorter...

On 01/21/2020 01:39 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
> The CPE end is fixed, in that the antenna is mounted, and
doesn't move.
>
> Unless it's something that you can throw on a desk and plug into an
> outlet, self install simply isn't realistic.
> Dish Network offered a self install option early on (back when
they were
> only using a single satellite, and it was relatively simple)...
they
> gave up on that pretty quickly. Heck, we even had a self install
option
> when we first started doing fixed wireless. It didn't take long
to learn
> a lot of reasons why that's a bad idea.
>
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 3:30 PM Carl Peterson
> mailto:cpeter...@portnetworks.com>
>> wrote:
>
> Ground to LEO isn't fixed wireless.  The "tower" is moving
and the
> client is roaming.
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 3:21 PM Jason McKemie
> mailto:j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com>
> >> wrote:
>
> Customer installed fixed wireless doesn't work well. I'm
sure
> they'll figure this out too late, I still don't
understand why
> big companies refuse to learn from other's mistakes.
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com  >
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
>
> --
>
> Carl Peterson
>
> *PORT NETWORKS*
>
> 401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553
>
> Baltimore, MD 21202
>
> (410) 637-3707
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com  >
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
>

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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Mathew Howard]

It makes sense that they would be looking at integrating them into Tesla
cars though. Paying AT&T for a 3G/4G connection to every Tesla presumably
takes a decent amount of money, which I'm sure they'd much rather be giving
to SpaceX.

As in the kind of backhaul a WISP would want... yeah, I doubt that will
happen, or if it would be practical in most places. But they very likely
are looking at things like HFT, if that means some quick money coming in.

That would be my guess too... self install will be an option, which may or
may not work out long term, but I doubt it's going to be the normal install.

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 4:57 PM Darin Steffl 
wrote:

> Guys, lots of misinformation here.
>
> They are NO plans nor hints of integrating Starlink antennas into Tesla
> cars. It may happen but no one has hinted of this happening. All Tesla's
> have 3G or 4G modems already built-in to them along with WiFi. Updates are
> sent via WiFi first and after the fleet has received the updates, they
> eventually push it to cars via cellular data that haven't updated via WiFi.
>
> Regarding B2B backhaul, I don't believe you'll see this as an option
> anytime soon for WISP's or other ISP's. They're targeting residential and
> small businesses as well as government contracts. The cost if they did
> offer B2B backhaul services would likely be higher than fiber to your
> network. Please stop thinking this will happen as I bet it will not.
>
> They may offer a self install option but they'll also have a contractor to
> perform most installs for a cost is my guess. Maybe they'll send a self
> install kit for X price and if you can't get it working, they'll schedule a
> contract install for XX price.
>
> I'll also say that you should not doubt Elon's passion to achieve great
> things. I have a Tesla and it's a work of art and by far the best vehicle
> I've ever driven. 99% of people who have driven one also think this. Tesla
> is succeeding, SpaceX is on it's way there, The Boring Company is half done
> with their Vegas tunnel, and Starlink will likely be a viable competitor
> for us.
>
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 4:48 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>
>> Can you link that? What exactly were they testing?
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 2:36 PM Robert Andrews 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Somehow they passed a first review from US DOD...   Can't be all smoke
>>> and mirrors in space...
>>>
>>> On 01/21/2020 12:18 PM, Ryan Ray wrote:
>>> > I'm still very wary of this. There seems to be a lot of over-promising
>>> > under delivering. In typical Elon fashion, no details but the world
>>> runs
>>> > with it and puts out all these data models that make it seem like the
>>> > second coming of christ. Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and
>>> they
>>> > are starting in 2020, but there's no pictures or details. How is that
>>> > even possible? We're buying 450b at a more expensive cost and there
>>> > ain't no phased antenna with motors in it.
>>> >
>>> > Then all you read online is the cult following of spaceslax who takes
>>> a
>>> > twitter post as gospel and just keeps perpetuating the same tired
>>> > information.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:02 AM Bill Prince >> > > wrote:
>>> >
>>> > If the SpaceX Starlink system works at 50% of what it's hyped, it
>>> will
>>> > become the future of rural internet. Urban is still going to be
>>> > dominated (eventually) by fiber for the foreseeable future. Higher
>>> > speed
>>> > wireless will be very, very local.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > bp
>>> > 
>>> >
>>> > On 1/19/2020 6:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
>>> >  > I don’t know why, but this evening got me thinking about
>>> > broadband delivery over the past 30 years and the future of
>>> broadband.
>>> >  >
>>> >  > First we had nothing, then along came dial-up and that was
>>> > amazing and many companies sprung up offering the service. Giants
>>> > like AOL and Prodigy.
>>> >  >
>>> >  > Then DSL and Cable came along as well as wireless and dial-up
>>> has
>>> > all but died.
>>> >  >
>>> >  > Now DSL is basically dead, cable and wireless have gone through
>>> > several iterations and we are seeing a push to fiber.
>>> >  >
>>> >  > What’s the possibility in the next 10 years cable and wireless
>>> > will be dead technologies with fiber at the fore front?  Possibly.
>>> >  >
>>> >  > But then. is fiber really future proof?  We are talking
>>> about
>>> > investing hundreds of millions into fiber infrastructure, because
>>> > it’s “the future”. But is it?
>>> >  >
>>> >  > So far every technology delivery mechanism to date has become
>>> > obsolete in as little as 6-10 years.
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > AF mailing list
>>> > AF@af.afmug.com 
>>> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> 

[AFMUG] CPI training & exam

[Ken Hohhof]

Has anyone here taken the CPI training, either online or in person?  Any
recommendation which is best?  I'm thinking online would be more self-paced,
but WISPA is offering in person at WISPAmerica.  However that likely means
staying an extra day.

 

Also what format does the exam take?  Is it in person if you take the course
in person?  Online at a later date?  Retake if you fail?  Does anyone fail?

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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Ken Hohhof]

The other thing about giant tech companies like Google, Amazon, and SpaceX is 
they can do even giant projects at a loss.  Eventually they may intend to make 
a profit, but meanwhile they have used other peoples money to drive you out of 
business.  There are also startups that lose money like crazy chasing market 
share, like ridesharing and coworking companies, although big funds like 
Softbank seem to be learning not to throw billions at startups without a 
business plan to reach profitability.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Ryan Ray
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 2:18 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] The Future

 

I'm still very wary of this. There seems to be a lot of over-promising under 
delivering. In typical Elon fashion, no details but the world runs with it and 
puts out all these data models that make it seem like the second coming of 
christ. Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and they are starting in 2020, 
but there's no pictures or details. How is that even possible? We're buying 
450b at a more expensive cost and there ain't no phased antenna with motors in 
it. 

 

Then all you read online is the cult following of spaceslax who takes a twitter 
post as gospel and just keeps perpetuating the same tired information. 

 

 

 

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:02 AM Bill Prince mailto:part15...@gmail.com> > wrote:

If the SpaceX Starlink system works at 50% of what it's hyped, it will 
become the future of rural internet. Urban is still going to be 
dominated (eventually) by fiber for the foreseeable future. Higher speed 
wireless will be very, very local.


bp


On 1/19/2020 6:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
> I don’t know why, but this evening got me thinking about broadband delivery 
> over the past 30 years and the future of broadband.
>
> First we had nothing, then along came dial-up and that was amazing and many 
> companies sprung up offering the service. Giants like AOL and Prodigy.
>
> Then DSL and Cable came along as well as wireless and dial-up has all but 
> died.
>
> Now DSL is basically dead, cable and wireless have gone through several 
> iterations and we are seeing a push to fiber.
>
> What’s the possibility in the next 10 years cable and wireless will be dead 
> technologies with fiber at the fore front?  Possibly.
>
> But then. is fiber really future proof?  We are talking about investing 
> hundreds of millions into fiber infrastructure, because it’s “the future”. 
> But is it?
>
> So far every technology delivery mechanism to date has become obsolete in as 
> little as 6-10 years.

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Re: [AFMUG] [BULK] Re: OT Swimming Pools

[Ken Hohhof]

Chuck needs a pool so he can sit by the pool and eat Vienna sausages.

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Seth Mattinen
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 2:14 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [BULK] Re: [AFMUG] OT Swimming Pools

On 1/21/20 12:08, Adam Moffett wrote:
> Is this some kind of wireless or fiber optic pool?  I think it's weird 
> how we can spend all day on this tangent.


That's why this list is the best.

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Re: [AFMUG] CPI training & exam

[David Coudron]

I did it online through Commscope.   It goes pretty fast.   Online sessions and 
test are a big afternoon to a full day.   Keep in mind that it is a permanent 
relationship between who you get certified through and yourself as a certified 
individual.  Not a one time class and you are done with them.   You will have 
an ongoing relationship to keep your CPI credentials.   It isn't too big a 
deal, but some folks might want to work with a company to get CPI certified 
that they already have a relationship with since their ID is tied to the 
training company that certifies them.

My advice would be to do it online when you can and not waste time at 
WISPAmerica on it.   No reason to wait for WISPAmerica from what I can tell.   
Steve did the same I think.   Steve any thoughts on that?

Regards,

David Coudron
From: AF  On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 5:27 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: [AFMUG] CPI training & exam

Has anyone here taken the CPI training, either online or in person?  Any 
recommendation which is best?  I'm thinking online would be more self-paced, 
but WISPA is offering in person at WISPAmerica.  However that likely means 
staying an extra day.

Also what format does the exam take?  Is it in person if you take the course in 
person?  Online at a later date?  Retake if you fail?  Does anyone fail?
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Re: [AFMUG] Average bandwidth per user

[Ken Hohhof]

Actually our usage peaked over the holidays and fell back a bit once the
kids went back to school.

Something we're seeing at the moment is a lot of Windows Updates and also
Win 7 people upgrading.

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 2:24 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Average bandwidth per user

Hello all!

Since the holidays bandwidth usage seems to have been picking up. Average
bandwidth usage during primetime is now over 4 Mbps using a 5 minute average
and bursts are over 6.5 Mbps. Seems people like their new toys and streaming
services. I also see more and more co-ordinated events where everybody and
their dog pile on and do their best to max out their interfaces.

How's everybody else doing?

Jared

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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Matt Hoppes]

That was back when all the women are strong, all the men are 
good-looking, and all the children are above average.


Since then the general population has gotten progressively stupider.

On 1/21/20 5:39 PM, Robert Andrews wrote:
The first version of DirecTV was self install, I know because I did it. 
  They had many many thousands of successful self installs the first two 
years with just a flashing led to guide you.   They are planning on 
having the CPE's integrated into the roofs of Tesla cars in the future. 
  They aren't joking about making this easy and they are great at 
thinking outside the pizza box.   Our runway is getting shorter...


On 01/21/2020 01:39 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:

The CPE end is fixed, in that the antenna is mounted, and doesn't move.

Unless it's something that you can throw on a desk and plug into an 
outlet, self install simply isn't realistic.
Dish Network offered a self install option early on (back when they 
were only using a single satellite, and it was relatively simple)... 
they gave up on that pretty quickly. Heck, we even had a self install 
option when we first started doing fixed wireless. It didn't take long 
to learn a lot of reasons why that's a bad idea.


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 3:30 PM Carl Peterson 
mailto:cpeter...@portnetworks.com>> wrote:


    Ground to LEO isn't fixed wireless.  The "tower" is moving and the
    client is roaming.


    On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 3:21 PM Jason McKemie
    mailto:j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com>> wrote:

    Customer installed fixed wireless doesn't work well. I'm sure
    they'll figure this out too late, I still don't understand why
    big companies refuse to learn from other's mistakes.
    --     AF mailing list
    AF@af.afmug.com 
    http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



    --
    Carl Peterson

    *PORT NETWORKS*

    401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553

    Baltimore, MD 21202

    (410) 637-3707

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    AF@af.afmug.com 
    http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com







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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Matt Hoppes]

So WiFi from a thing outside the house?   That won't work well.

On 1/21/20 6:01 PM, Nate Burke wrote:
Everything is WIFI Now, it probably has a WIFI AP built in, and just 
needs a power cord.


On 1/21/2020 4:57 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
Yeah... there are certainly plenty of people who can do a self install 
just fine, but there's a reason that Directv and Dish Network both 
shifted away from self installs after the first couple of years... 
well, several reasons, including that aligning the antennas got a lot 
more complicated, but that probably wasn't the biggest reason.


Plug into the socket and point at the sky sounds good and all, but 
there's still the problem of getting the wire from the sock to a place 
where you can point at the sky... and keeping the thing where it can 
point at the sky. In my experience, most end users don't want to do that.


If they just offer it as an option for people with some clue what 
they're doing, perhaps it will work fine.


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 4:41 PM Robert Andrews > wrote:


The first version of DirecTV was self install, I know because I
did it.
  They had many many thousands of successful self installs the
first two
years with just a flashing led to guide you.   They are planning on
having the CPE's integrated into the roofs of Tesla cars in the
future.
  They aren't joking about making this easy and they are great at
thinking outside the pizza box.   Our runway is getting shorter...

On 01/21/2020 01:39 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
> The CPE end is fixed, in that the antenna is mounted, and
doesn't move.
>
> Unless it's something that you can throw on a desk and plug into an
> outlet, self install simply isn't realistic.
> Dish Network offered a self install option early on (back when
they were
> only using a single satellite, and it was relatively simple)...
they
> gave up on that pretty quickly. Heck, we even had a self install
option
> when we first started doing fixed wireless. It didn't take long
to learn
> a lot of reasons why that's a bad idea.
>
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 3:30 PM Carl Peterson
> mailto:cpeter...@portnetworks.com>
>> wrote:
>
>     Ground to LEO isn't fixed wireless.  The "tower" is moving
and the
>     client is roaming.
>
>
>     On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 3:21 PM Jason McKemie
>     mailto:j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com>
>     >> wrote:
>
>         Customer installed fixed wireless doesn't work well. I'm
sure
>         they'll figure this out too late, I still don't
understand why
>         big companies refuse to learn from other's mistakes.
>         --
>         AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com  >
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
>
>     --
>
>     Carl Peterson
>
>     *PORT NETWORKS*
>
>     401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553
>
>     Baltimore, MD 21202
>
>     (410) 637-3707
>
>     --
>     AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com  >
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
>

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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Matt Hoppes]

But still do you send a pre-terminated cable?  If so how long? 
How does the end user get it through a wall?   What if they damage an end?


How will they mount this thing?  Under an eve?  What happens when the 
modulation is poor?  Crap service?  Dragging down the entire bird?


On 1/21/20 5:57 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
Yeah... there are certainly plenty of people who can do a self install 
just fine, but there's a reason that Directv and Dish Network both 
shifted away from self installs after the first couple of years... well, 
several reasons, including that aligning the antennas got a lot more 
complicated, but that probably wasn't the biggest reason.


Plug into the socket and point at the sky sounds good and all, but 
there's still the problem of getting the wire from the sock to a place 
where you can point at the sky... and keeping the thing where it can 
point at the sky. In my experience, most end users don't want to do that.


If they just offer it as an option for people with some clue what 
they're doing, perhaps it will work fine.


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 4:41 PM Robert Andrews > wrote:


The first version of DirecTV was self install, I know because I did it.
   They had many many thousands of successful self installs the
first two
years with just a flashing led to guide you.   They are planning on
having the CPE's integrated into the roofs of Tesla cars in the future.
   They aren't joking about making this easy and they are great at
thinking outside the pizza box.   Our runway is getting shorter...

On 01/21/2020 01:39 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
 > The CPE end is fixed, in that the antenna is mounted, and doesn't
move.
 >
 > Unless it's something that you can throw on a desk and plug into an
 > outlet, self install simply isn't realistic.
 > Dish Network offered a self install option early on (back when
they were
 > only using a single satellite, and it was relatively simple)... they
 > gave up on that pretty quickly. Heck, we even had a self install
option
 > when we first started doing fixed wireless. It didn't take long
to learn
 > a lot of reasons why that's a bad idea.
 >
 > On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 3:30 PM Carl Peterson
 > mailto:cpeter...@portnetworks.com>
>> wrote:
 >
 >     Ground to LEO isn't fixed wireless.  The "tower" is moving
and the
 >     client is roaming.
 >
 >
 >     On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 3:21 PM Jason McKemie
 >     mailto:j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com>
 >     >> wrote:
 >
 >         Customer installed fixed wireless doesn't work well. I'm sure
 >         they'll figure this out too late, I still don't
understand why
 >         big companies refuse to learn from other's mistakes.
 >         --
 >         AF mailing list
 > AF@af.afmug.com  >
 > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
 >
 >
 >
 >     --
 >
 >     Carl Peterson
 >
 >     *PORT NETWORKS*
 >
 >     401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553
 >
 >     Baltimore, MD 21202
 >
 >     (410) 637-3707
 >
 >     --
 >     AF mailing list
 > AF@af.afmug.com  >
 > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
 >
 >
 >

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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Jason McKemie]

The difference being that this is a side project for one of the main
businesses, not their primary purpose. At best I don't think this is going
to be anything besides a better alternative to other satellite internet
options.

On Tuesday, January 21, 2020, Darin Steffl  wrote:

> Guys, lots of misinformation here.
>
> They are NO plans nor hints of integrating Starlink antennas into Tesla
> cars. It may happen but no one has hinted of this happening. All Tesla's
> have 3G or 4G modems already built-in to them along with WiFi. Updates are
> sent via WiFi first and after the fleet has received the updates, they
> eventually push it to cars via cellular data that haven't updated via WiFi.
>
> Regarding B2B backhaul, I don't believe you'll see this as an option
> anytime soon for WISP's or other ISP's. They're targeting residential and
> small businesses as well as government contracts. The cost if they did
> offer B2B backhaul services would likely be higher than fiber to your
> network. Please stop thinking this will happen as I bet it will not.
>
> They may offer a self install option but they'll also have a contractor to
> perform most installs for a cost is my guess. Maybe they'll send a self
> install kit for X price and if you can't get it working, they'll schedule a
> contract install for XX price.
>
> I'll also say that you should not doubt Elon's passion to achieve great
> things. I have a Tesla and it's a work of art and by far the best vehicle
> I've ever driven. 99% of people who have driven one also think this. Tesla
> is succeeding, SpaceX is on it's way there, The Boring Company is half done
> with their Vegas tunnel, and Starlink will likely be a viable competitor
> for us.
>
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 4:48 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>
>> Can you link that? What exactly were they testing?
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 2:36 PM Robert Andrews 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Somehow they passed a first review from US DOD...   Can't be all smoke
>>> and mirrors in space...
>>>
>>> On 01/21/2020 12:18 PM, Ryan Ray wrote:
>>> > I'm still very wary of this. There seems to be a lot of over-promising
>>> > under delivering. In typical Elon fashion, no details but the world
>>> runs
>>> > with it and puts out all these data models that make it seem like the
>>> > second coming of christ. Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and
>>> they
>>> > are starting in 2020, but there's no pictures or details. How is that
>>> > even possible? We're buying 450b at a more expensive cost and there
>>> > ain't no phased antenna with motors in it.
>>> >
>>> > Then all you read online is the cult following of spaceslax who takes
>>> a
>>> > twitter post as gospel and just keeps perpetuating the same tired
>>> > information.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:02 AM Bill Prince >> > > wrote:
>>> >
>>> > If the SpaceX Starlink system works at 50% of what it's hyped, it
>>> will
>>> > become the future of rural internet. Urban is still going to be
>>> > dominated (eventually) by fiber for the foreseeable future. Higher
>>> > speed
>>> > wireless will be very, very local.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > bp
>>> > 
>>> >
>>> > On 1/19/2020 6:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
>>> >  > I don’t know why, but this evening got me thinking about
>>> > broadband delivery over the past 30 years and the future of
>>> broadband.
>>> >  >
>>> >  > First we had nothing, then along came dial-up and that was
>>> > amazing and many companies sprung up offering the service. Giants
>>> > like AOL and Prodigy.
>>> >  >
>>> >  > Then DSL and Cable came along as well as wireless and dial-up
>>> has
>>> > all but died.
>>> >  >
>>> >  > Now DSL is basically dead, cable and wireless have gone through
>>> > several iterations and we are seeing a push to fiber.
>>> >  >
>>> >  > What’s the possibility in the next 10 years cable and wireless
>>> > will be dead technologies with fiber at the fore front?  Possibly.
>>> >  >
>>> >  > But then. is fiber really future proof?  We are talking
>>> about
>>> > investing hundreds of millions into fiber infrastructure, because
>>> > it’s “the future”. But is it?
>>> >  >
>>> >  > So far every technology delivery mechanism to date has become
>>> > obsolete in as little as 6-10 years.
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > AF mailing list
>>> > AF@af.afmug.com 
>>> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>
>
> --
> Darin Steffl
> Minnesota WiFi
> www.mnwifi.com
> 507-634-WiFi
>  Like us on Facebook
> 
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af

Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Jason McKemie]

To qualify that a bit, I'm referring to residential users. There may be
niche markets like HFT that will have benefits when using it.

On Tuesday, January 21, 2020, Jason McKemie <
j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote:

> The difference being that this is a side project for one of the main
> businesses, not their primary purpose. At best I don't think this is going
> to be anything besides a better alternative to other satellite internet
> options.
>
> On Tuesday, January 21, 2020, Darin Steffl 
> wrote:
>
>> Guys, lots of misinformation here.
>>
>> They are NO plans nor hints of integrating Starlink antennas into Tesla
>> cars. It may happen but no one has hinted of this happening. All Tesla's
>> have 3G or 4G modems already built-in to them along with WiFi. Updates are
>> sent via WiFi first and after the fleet has received the updates, they
>> eventually push it to cars via cellular data that haven't updated via WiFi.
>>
>> Regarding B2B backhaul, I don't believe you'll see this as an option
>> anytime soon for WISP's or other ISP's. They're targeting residential and
>> small businesses as well as government contracts. The cost if they did
>> offer B2B backhaul services would likely be higher than fiber to your
>> network. Please stop thinking this will happen as I bet it will not.
>>
>> They may offer a self install option but they'll also have a contractor
>> to perform most installs for a cost is my guess. Maybe they'll send a self
>> install kit for X price and if you can't get it working, they'll schedule a
>> contract install for XX price.
>>
>> I'll also say that you should not doubt Elon's passion to achieve great
>> things. I have a Tesla and it's a work of art and by far the best vehicle
>> I've ever driven. 99% of people who have driven one also think this. Tesla
>> is succeeding, SpaceX is on it's way there, The Boring Company is half done
>> with their Vegas tunnel, and Starlink will likely be a viable competitor
>> for us.
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 4:48 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>>
>>> Can you link that? What exactly were they testing?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 2:36 PM Robert Andrews 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Somehow they passed a first review from US DOD...   Can't be all smoke
 and mirrors in space...

 On 01/21/2020 12:18 PM, Ryan Ray wrote:
 > I'm still very wary of this. There seems to be a lot of
 over-promising
 > under delivering. In typical Elon fashion, no details but the world
 runs
 > with it and puts out all these data models that make it seem like the
 > second coming of christ. Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and
 they
 > are starting in 2020, but there's no pictures or details. How is that
 > even possible? We're buying 450b at a more expensive cost and there
 > ain't no phased antenna with motors in it.
 >
 > Then all you read online is the cult following of spaceslax who takes
 a
 > twitter post as gospel and just keeps perpetuating the same tired
 > information.
 >
 >
 >
 > On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:02 AM Bill Prince >>> > > wrote:
 >
 > If the SpaceX Starlink system works at 50% of what it's hyped, it
 will
 > become the future of rural internet. Urban is still going to be
 > dominated (eventually) by fiber for the foreseeable future. Higher
 > speed
 > wireless will be very, very local.
 >
 >
 > bp
 > 
 >
 > On 1/19/2020 6:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
 >  > I don’t know why, but this evening got me thinking about
 > broadband delivery over the past 30 years and the future of
 broadband.
 >  >
 >  > First we had nothing, then along came dial-up and that was
 > amazing and many companies sprung up offering the service. Giants
 > like AOL and Prodigy.
 >  >
 >  > Then DSL and Cable came along as well as wireless and dial-up
 has
 > all but died.
 >  >
 >  > Now DSL is basically dead, cable and wireless have gone through
 > several iterations and we are seeing a push to fiber.
 >  >
 >  > What’s the possibility in the next 10 years cable and wireless
 > will be dead technologies with fiber at the fore front?  Possibly.
 >  >
 >  > But then. is fiber really future proof?  We are talking
 about
 > investing hundreds of millions into fiber infrastructure, because
 > it’s “the future”. But is it?
 >  >
 >  > So far every technology delivery mechanism to date has become
 > obsolete in as little as 6-10 years.
 >
 > --
 > AF mailing list
 > AF@af.afmug.com 
 > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
 >
 >
 >

 --
 AF mailing list
 AF@af.afmug.com
 http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listin

Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[chuck]

Think about how many residential customers no longer have satellite TV.  They 
don’t like antennas and they like the semi al carte that streaming provides.  
With 8K tvs and more content daily the streaming BW is just going to go up and 
up and up.  

I think when fiber is compared to any wireless technology it will be the best 
value.  The wireless providers are all going to have some kind of limit or cap 
on quantity.  They cannot compete with a 1 GIG unlimited fiber connection for 
$50-$70  I seriously doubt Musk’s satellite will be able to compete with that.  
 Or any so-called 5G provider.  

From: Jason McKemie 
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 5:24 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] The Future

To qualify that a bit, I'm referring to residential users. There may be niche 
markets like HFT that will have benefits when using it.

On Tuesday, January 21, 2020, Jason McKemie  
wrote:

  The difference being that this is a side project for one of the main 
businesses, not their primary purpose. At best I don't think this is going to 
be anything besides a better alternative to other satellite internet options. 

  On Tuesday, January 21, 2020, Darin Steffl  wrote:

Guys, lots of misinformation here. 

They are NO plans nor hints of integrating Starlink antennas into Tesla 
cars. It may happen but no one has hinted of this happening. All Tesla's have 
3G or 4G modems already built-in to them along with WiFi. Updates are sent via 
WiFi first and after the fleet has received the updates, they eventually push 
it to cars via cellular data that haven't updated via WiFi.

Regarding B2B backhaul, I don't believe you'll see this as an option 
anytime soon for WISP's or other ISP's. They're targeting residential and small 
businesses as well as government contracts. The cost if they did offer B2B 
backhaul services would likely be higher than fiber to your network. Please 
stop thinking this will happen as I bet it will not.

They may offer a self install option but they'll also have a contractor to 
perform most installs for a cost is my guess. Maybe they'll send a self install 
kit for X price and if you can't get it working, they'll schedule a contract 
install for XX price.

I'll also say that you should not doubt Elon's passion to achieve great 
things. I have a Tesla and it's a work of art and by far the best vehicle I've 
ever driven. 99% of people who have driven one also think this. Tesla is 
succeeding, SpaceX is on it's way there, The Boring Company is half done with 
their Vegas tunnel, and Starlink will likely be a viable competitor for us.

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 4:48 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:

  Can you link that? What exactly were they testing?


  On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 2:36 PM Robert Andrews  
wrote:

Somehow they passed a first review from US DOD...   Can't be all smoke 
and mirrors in space...

On 01/21/2020 12:18 PM, Ryan Ray wrote:
> I'm still very wary of this. There seems to be a lot of 
over-promising 
> under delivering. In typical Elon fashion, no details but the world 
runs 
> with it and puts out all these data models that make it seem like the 
> second coming of christ. Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and 
they 
> are starting in 2020, but there's no pictures or details. How is that 
> even possible? We're buying 450b at a more expensive cost and there 
> ain't no phased antenna with motors in it.
> 
> Then all you read online is the cult following of spaceslax who takes 
a 
> twitter post as gospel and just keeps perpetuating the same tired 
> information.
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:02 AM Bill Prince  > wrote:
> 
> If the SpaceX Starlink system works at 50% of what it's hyped, it 
will
> become the future of rural internet. Urban is still going to be
> dominated (eventually) by fiber for the foreseeable future. Higher
> speed
> wireless will be very, very local.
> 
> 
> bp
> 
> 
> On 1/19/2020 6:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
>  > I don’t know why, but this evening got me thinking about
> broadband delivery over the past 30 years and the future of 
broadband.
>  >
>  > First we had nothing, then along came dial-up and that was
> amazing and many companies sprung up offering the service. Giants
> like AOL and Prodigy.
>  >
>  > Then DSL and Cable came along as well as wireless and dial-up 
has
> all but died.
>  >
>  > Now DSL is basically dead, cable and wireless have gone through
> several iterations and we are seeing a push to fiber.
>  >
>  > What’s the p

Re: [AFMUG] CPI training & exam

[Eric Nielsen]

Online is easier. You can study at your leisure, but all exams are
proctored.
Comsearch is still pushing their promotion, which I believe is the cheapest
option.

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 9:12 PM  wrote:

> Send AF mailing list submissions to
> af@af.afmug.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> af-requ...@af.afmug.com
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> af-ow...@af.afmug.com
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of AF digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>1. CPI training & exam (Ken Hohhof)
>2. Re: The Future (Ken Hohhof)
>3. Re: [BULK]  Re:  OT Swimming Pools (Ken Hohhof)
>4. Re: CPI training & exam (David Coudron)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 17:27:16 -0600
> From: "Ken Hohhof" 
> To: "'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'" 
> Subject: [AFMUG] CPI training & exam
> Message-ID: <001401d5d0b2$514f8660$f3ee9320$@kwisp.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Has anyone here taken the CPI training, either online or in person?  Any
> recommendation which is best?  I'm thinking online would be more
> self-paced,
> but WISPA is offering in person at WISPAmerica.  However that likely means
> staying an extra day.
>
>
>
> Also what format does the exam take?  Is it in person if you take the
> course
> in person?  Online at a later date?  Retake if you fail?  Does anyone fail?
>
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/private/af_af.afmug.com/attachments/20200121/9cf835d2/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
> --
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 17:31:46 -0600
> From: "Ken Hohhof" 
> To: "'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'" 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] The Future
> Message-ID: <001901d5d0b2$f264b520$d72e1f60$@kwisp.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> The other thing about giant tech companies like Google, Amazon, and SpaceX
> is they can do even giant projects at a loss.  Eventually they may intend
> to make a profit, but meanwhile they have used other peoples money to drive
> you out of business.  There are also startups that lose money like crazy
> chasing market share, like ridesharing and coworking companies, although
> big funds like Softbank seem to be learning not to throw billions at
> startups without a business plan to reach profitability.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Ryan Ray
> Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 2:18 PM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] The Future
>
>
>
> I'm still very wary of this. There seems to be a lot of over-promising
> under delivering. In typical Elon fashion, no details but the world runs
> with it and puts out all these data models that make it seem like the
> second coming of christ. Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and they are
> starting in 2020, but there's no pictures or details. How is that even
> possible? We're buying 450b at a more expensive cost and there ain't no
> phased antenna with motors in it.
>
>
>
> Then all you read online is the cult following of spaceslax who takes a
> twitter post as gospel and just keeps perpetuating the same tired
> information.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:02 AM Bill Prince  part15...@gmail.com> > wrote:
>
> If the SpaceX Starlink system works at 50% of what it's hyped, it will
> become the future of rural internet. Urban is still going to be
> dominated (eventually) by fiber for the foreseeable future. Higher speed
> wireless will be very, very local.
>
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 1/19/2020 6:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
> > I don?t know why, but this evening got me thinking about broadband
> delivery over the past 30 years and the future of broadband.
> >
> > First we had nothing, then along came dial-up and that was amazing and
> many companies sprung up offering the service. Giants like AOL and Prodigy.
> >
> > Then DSL and Cable came along as well as wireless and dial-up has all
> but died.
> >
> > Now DSL is basically dead, cable and wireless have gone through several
> iterations and we are seeing a push to fiber.
> >
> > What?s the possibility in the 

Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Jason McKemie]

Exactly, you have to cap satellite based wireless / mobile wireless - at
least if you want to keep the available bandwidth per user at a respectable
level. Streaming video will burn through bandwidth caps in a hurry, and
anymore that is basically the entirety of the reason for a home internet
connection.

On Tuesday, January 21, 2020,  wrote:

> Think about how many residential customers no longer have satellite TV.
> They don’t like antennas and they like the semi al carte that streaming
> provides.  With 8K tvs and more content daily the streaming BW is just
> going to go up and up and up.
>
> I think when fiber is compared to any wireless technology it will be the
> best value.  The wireless providers are all going to have some kind of
> limit or cap on quantity.  They cannot compete with a 1 GIG unlimited fiber
> connection for $50-$70  I seriously doubt Musk’s satellite will be able to
> compete with that.   Or any so-called 5G provider.
>
> *From:* Jason McKemie
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 21, 2020 5:24 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] The Future
>
> To qualify that a bit, I'm referring to residential users. There may be
> niche markets like HFT that will have benefits when using it.
>
> On Tuesday, January 21, 2020, Jason McKemie  com> wrote:
>
>> The difference being that this is a side project for one of the main
>> businesses, not their primary purpose. At best I don't think this is going
>> to be anything besides a better alternative to other satellite internet
>> options.
>>
>> On Tuesday, January 21, 2020, Darin Steffl 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Guys, lots of misinformation here.
>>>
>>> They are NO plans nor hints of integrating Starlink antennas into Tesla
>>> cars. It may happen but no one has hinted of this happening. All Tesla's
>>> have 3G or 4G modems already built-in to them along with WiFi. Updates are
>>> sent via WiFi first and after the fleet has received the updates, they
>>> eventually push it to cars via cellular data that haven't updated via WiFi.
>>>
>>> Regarding B2B backhaul, I don't believe you'll see this as an option
>>> anytime soon for WISP's or other ISP's. They're targeting residential and
>>> small businesses as well as government contracts. The cost if they did
>>> offer B2B backhaul services would likely be higher than fiber to your
>>> network. Please stop thinking this will happen as I bet it will not.
>>>
>>> They may offer a self install option but they'll also have a contractor
>>> to perform most installs for a cost is my guess. Maybe they'll send a self
>>> install kit for X price and if you can't get it working, they'll schedule a
>>> contract install for XX price.
>>>
>>> I'll also say that you should not doubt Elon's passion to achieve great
>>> things. I have a Tesla and it's a work of art and by far the best vehicle
>>> I've ever driven. 99% of people who have driven one also think this. Tesla
>>> is succeeding, SpaceX is on it's way there, The Boring Company is half done
>>> with their Vegas tunnel, and Starlink will likely be a viable competitor
>>> for us.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 4:48 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>>>
 Can you link that? What exactly were they testing?


 On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 2:36 PM Robert Andrews 
 wrote:

> Somehow they passed a first review from US DOD...   Can't be all smoke
> and mirrors in space...
>
> On 01/21/2020 12:18 PM, Ryan Ray wrote:
> > I'm still very wary of this. There seems to be a lot of
> over-promising
> > under delivering. In typical Elon fashion, no details but the world
> runs
> > with it and puts out all these data models that make it seem like
> the
> > second coming of christ. Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and
> they
> > are starting in 2020, but there's no pictures or details. How is
> that
> > even possible? We're buying 450b at a more expensive cost and there
> > ain't no phased antenna with motors in it.
> >
> > Then all you read online is the cult following of spaceslax who
> takes a
> > twitter post as gospel and just keeps perpetuating the same tired
> > information.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:02 AM Bill Prince  > > wrote:
> >
> > If the SpaceX Starlink system works at 50% of what it's hyped,
> it will
> > become the future of rural internet. Urban is still going to be
> > dominated (eventually) by fiber for the foreseeable future.
> Higher
> > speed
> > wireless will be very, very local.
> >
> >
> > bp
> > 
> >
> > On 1/19/2020 6:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
> >  > I don’t know why, but this evening got me thinking about
> > broadband delivery over the past 30 years and the future of
> broadband.
> >  >
> >  > First we had nothing, then along came dial-up and that was
> > 

Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Robert]

um, no, Starlink is now becoming the primary reason for the huge run-up 
in valuation for SpaceX...



https://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-future-multibillion-dollar-valuation-starlink-internet-morgan-stanley-2019-9


On 1/21/20 4:15 PM, Jason McKemie wrote:
The difference being that this is a side project for one of the main 
businesses, not their primary purpose. At best I don't think this is 
going to be anything besides a better alternative to other satellite 
internet options.


On Tuesday, January 21, 2020, Darin Steffl > wrote:


Guys, lots of misinformation here.

They are NO plans nor hints of integrating Starlink antennas into
Tesla cars. It may happen but no one has hinted of this happening.
All Tesla's have 3G or 4G modems already built-in to them along
with WiFi. Updates are sent via WiFi first and after the fleet has
received the updates, they eventually push it to cars via cellular
data that haven't updated via WiFi.

Regarding B2B backhaul, I don't believe you'll see this as an
option anytime soon for WISP's or other ISP's. They're targeting
residential and small businesses as well as government contracts.
The cost if they did offer B2B backhaul services would likely be
higher than fiber to your network. Please stop thinking this will
happen as I bet it will not.

They may offer a self install option but they'll also have a
contractor to perform most installs for a cost is my guess. Maybe
they'll send a self install kit for X price and if you can't get
it working, they'll schedule a contract install for XX price.

I'll also say that you should not doubt Elon's passion to achieve
great things. I have a Tesla and it's a work of art and by far the
best vehicle I've ever driven. 99% of people who have driven one
also think this. Tesla is succeeding, SpaceX is on it's way there,
The Boring Company is half done with their Vegas tunnel, and
Starlink will likely be a viable competitor for us.

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 4:48 PM Ryan Ray mailto:ryan...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Can you link that? What exactly were they testing?


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 2:36 PM Robert Andrews
mailto:i...@avantwireless.com>> wrote:

Somehow they passed a first review from US DOD...   Can't
be all smoke
and mirrors in space...

On 01/21/2020 12:18 PM, Ryan Ray wrote:
> I'm still very wary of this. There seems to be a lot of
over-promising
> under delivering. In typical Elon fashion, no details
but the world runs
> with it and puts out all these data models that make it
seem like the
> second coming of christ. Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo
<$200 and they
> are starting in 2020, but there's no pictures or
details. How is that
> even possible? We're buying 450b at a more expensive
cost and there
> ain't no phased antenna with motors in it.
>
> Then all you read online is the cult following of
spaceslax who takes a
> twitter post as gospel and just keeps perpetuating the
same tired
> information.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:02 AM Bill Prince
mailto:part15...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
>
>     If the SpaceX Starlink system works at 50% of what
it's hyped, it will
>     become the future of rural internet. Urban is still
going to be
>     dominated (eventually) by fiber for the foreseeable
future. Higher
>     speed
>     wireless will be very, very local.
>
>
>     bp
>     
>
>     On 1/19/2020 6:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
>      > I don’t know why, but this evening got me
thinking about
>     broadband delivery over the past 30 years and the
future of broadband.
>      >
>      > First we had nothing, then along came dial-up and
that was
>     amazing and many companies sprung up offering the
service. Giants
>     like AOL and Prodigy.
>      >
>      > Then DSL and Cable came along as well as wireless
and dial-up has
>     all but died.
>      >
>      > Now DSL is basically dead, cable and wireless
have gone through
>     several iterations and we are seeing a push to fiber.
>      >
>      > What’s the possibility in the next 10 years cable
  

[AFMUG] OT youtube hell

[chuck]

Is there a 12 step program for this?

10x more addictive than porn.  

I love forgings-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT youtube hell

[Robert]

Let me see if I can help you out...


https://www.youtube.com/user/errolprowse

This one is down south from you, I think...

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwdVOry0oNF9WIe_3uCfz9Q


On 1/21/20 7:01 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

Is there a 12 step program for this?
10x more addictive than porn.
I love forgings



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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Jason McKemie]

Elon started it as a project to raise money, yes. Morgan Stanley is up
valuing it because they don't understand technology. This project is not
even close to spacex's purpose for existing. If it disappeared it would not
have any real effect on their overall mission.

On Tuesday, January 21, 2020, Robert  wrote:

> um, no, Starlink is now becoming the primary reason for the huge run-up in
> valuation for SpaceX...
>
>
> https://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-future-
> multibillion-dollar-valuation-starlink-internet-morgan-stanley-2019-9
>
>
> On 1/21/20 4:15 PM, Jason McKemie wrote:
>
> The difference being that this is a side project for one of the main
> businesses, not their primary purpose. At best I don't think this is going
> to be anything besides a better alternative to other satellite internet
> options.
>
> On Tuesday, January 21, 2020, Darin Steffl 
> wrote:
>
>> Guys, lots of misinformation here.
>>
>> They are NO plans nor hints of integrating Starlink antennas into Tesla
>> cars. It may happen but no one has hinted of this happening. All Tesla's
>> have 3G or 4G modems already built-in to them along with WiFi. Updates are
>> sent via WiFi first and after the fleet has received the updates, they
>> eventually push it to cars via cellular data that haven't updated via WiFi.
>>
>> Regarding B2B backhaul, I don't believe you'll see this as an option
>> anytime soon for WISP's or other ISP's. They're targeting residential and
>> small businesses as well as government contracts. The cost if they did
>> offer B2B backhaul services would likely be higher than fiber to your
>> network. Please stop thinking this will happen as I bet it will not.
>>
>> They may offer a self install option but they'll also have a contractor
>> to perform most installs for a cost is my guess. Maybe they'll send a self
>> install kit for X price and if you can't get it working, they'll schedule a
>> contract install for XX price.
>>
>> I'll also say that you should not doubt Elon's passion to achieve great
>> things. I have a Tesla and it's a work of art and by far the best vehicle
>> I've ever driven. 99% of people who have driven one also think this. Tesla
>> is succeeding, SpaceX is on it's way there, The Boring Company is half done
>> with their Vegas tunnel, and Starlink will likely be a viable competitor
>> for us.
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 4:48 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>>
>>> Can you link that? What exactly were they testing?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 2:36 PM Robert Andrews 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Somehow they passed a first review from US DOD...   Can't be all smoke
 and mirrors in space...

 On 01/21/2020 12:18 PM, Ryan Ray wrote:
 > I'm still very wary of this. There seems to be a lot of
 over-promising
 > under delivering. In typical Elon fashion, no details but the world
 runs
 > with it and puts out all these data models that make it seem like the
 > second coming of christ. Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and
 they
 > are starting in 2020, but there's no pictures or details. How is that
 > even possible? We're buying 450b at a more expensive cost and there
 > ain't no phased antenna with motors in it.
 >
 > Then all you read online is the cult following of spaceslax who takes
 a
 > twitter post as gospel and just keeps perpetuating the same tired
 > information.
 >
 >
 >
 > On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:02 AM Bill Prince >>> > > wrote:
 >
 > If the SpaceX Starlink system works at 50% of what it's hyped, it
 will
 > become the future of rural internet. Urban is still going to be
 > dominated (eventually) by fiber for the foreseeable future. Higher
 > speed
 > wireless will be very, very local.
 >
 >
 > bp
 > 
 >
 > On 1/19/2020 6:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
 >  > I don’t know why, but this evening got me thinking about
 > broadband delivery over the past 30 years and the future of
 broadband.
 >  >
 >  > First we had nothing, then along came dial-up and that was
 > amazing and many companies sprung up offering the service. Giants
 > like AOL and Prodigy.
 >  >
 >  > Then DSL and Cable came along as well as wireless and dial-up
 has
 > all but died.
 >  >
 >  > Now DSL is basically dead, cable and wireless have gone through
 > several iterations and we are seeing a push to fiber.
 >  >
 >  > What’s the possibility in the next 10 years cable and wireless
 > will be dead technologies with fiber at the fore front?  Possibly.
 >  >
 >  > But then. is fiber really future proof?  We are talking
 about
 > investing hundreds of millions into fiber infrastructure, because
 > it’s “the future”. But is it?
 >  >
 >  > So far every technolo

Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Ken Hohhof]

Maybe it just reflects my customer base, but by far the #1 reason I hear for 
streaming instead of sat TV is cost.  People say DirecTV is too expensive.

 

#2 reason is probably binge watching.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 7:33 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] The Future

 

Think about how many residential customers no longer have satellite TV.  They 
don’t like antennas and they like the semi al carte that streaming provides.  
With 8K tvs and more content daily the streaming BW is just going to go up and 
up and up.  

 

I think when fiber is compared to any wireless technology it will be the best 
value.  The wireless providers are all going to have some kind of limit or cap 
on quantity.  They cannot compete with a 1 GIG unlimited fiber connection for 
$50-$70  I seriously doubt Musk’s satellite will be able to compete with that.  
 Or any so-called 5G provider.  

 

From: Jason McKemie 

Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 5:24 PM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] The Future

 

To qualify that a bit, I'm referring to residential users. There may be niche 
markets like HFT that will have benefits when using it.

On Tuesday, January 21, 2020, Jason McKemie mailto:j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> > wrote:

The difference being that this is a side project for one of the main 
businesses, not their primary purpose. At best I don't think this is going to 
be anything besides a better alternative to other satellite internet options. 

On Tuesday, January 21, 2020, Darin Steffl mailto:darin.ste...@mnwifi.com> > wrote:

Guys, lots of misinformation here. 

 

They are NO plans nor hints of integrating Starlink antennas into Tesla cars. 
It may happen but no one has hinted of this happening. All Tesla's have 3G or 
4G modems already built-in to them along with WiFi. Updates are sent via WiFi 
first and after the fleet has received the updates, they eventually push it to 
cars via cellular data that haven't updated via WiFi.

 

Regarding B2B backhaul, I don't believe you'll see this as an option anytime 
soon for WISP's or other ISP's. They're targeting residential and small 
businesses as well as government contracts. The cost if they did offer B2B 
backhaul services would likely be higher than fiber to your network. Please 
stop thinking this will happen as I bet it will not.

 

They may offer a self install option but they'll also have a contractor to 
perform most installs for a cost is my guess. Maybe they'll send a self install 
kit for X price and if you can't get it working, they'll schedule a contract 
install for XX price.

 

I'll also say that you should not doubt Elon's passion to achieve great things. 
I have a Tesla and it's a work of art and by far the best vehicle I've ever 
driven. 99% of people who have driven one also think this. Tesla is succeeding, 
SpaceX is on it's way there, The Boring Company is half done with their Vegas 
tunnel, and Starlink will likely be a viable competitor for us.

 

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 4:48 PM Ryan Ray mailto:ryan...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Can you link that? What exactly were they testing?

 

 

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 2:36 PM Robert Andrews mailto:i...@avantwireless.com> > wrote:

Somehow they passed a first review from US DOD...   Can't be all smoke 
and mirrors in space...

On 01/21/2020 12:18 PM, Ryan Ray wrote:
> I'm still very wary of this. There seems to be a lot of over-promising 
> under delivering. In typical Elon fashion, no details but the world runs 
> with it and puts out all these data models that make it seem like the 
> second coming of christ. Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and they 
> are starting in 2020, but there's no pictures or details. How is that 
> even possible? We're buying 450b at a more expensive cost and there 
> ain't no phased antenna with motors in it.
> 
> Then all you read online is the cult following of spaceslax who takes a 
> twitter post as gospel and just keeps perpetuating the same tired 
> information.
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:02 AM Bill Prince   
> > wrote:
> 
> If the SpaceX Starlink system works at 50% of what it's hyped, it will
> become the future of rural internet. Urban is still going to be
> dominated (eventually) by fiber for the foreseeable future. Higher
> speed
> wireless will be very, very local.
> 
> 
> bp
> 
> 
> On 1/19/2020 6:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
>  > I don’t know why, but this evening got me thinking about
> broadband delivery over the past 30 years and the future of broadband.
>  >
>  > First we had nothing, then along came dial-up and that was
> amazing and many companies sprung up offering the service. Giants
> like AOL and Prodigy.
>  >
>  > Then DSL and Cable came along as well as wireless and dial-up has
> all but died.
>  >
>

Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Jason McKemie]

I agree, cost is reason number one, although I do think non-linear video
appeals to instant gratification nature as well.

On Tuesday, January 21, 2020, Ken Hohhof  wrote:

> Maybe it just reflects my customer base, but by far the #1 reason I hear
> for streaming instead of sat TV is cost.  People say DirecTV is too
> expensive.
>
>
>
> #2 reason is probably binge watching.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *ch...@wbmfg.com
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 21, 2020 7:33 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] The Future
>
>
>
> Think about how many residential customers no longer have satellite TV.
> They don’t like antennas and they like the semi al carte that streaming
> provides.  With 8K tvs and more content daily the streaming BW is just
> going to go up and up and up.
>
>
>
> I think when fiber is compared to any wireless technology it will be the
> best value.  The wireless providers are all going to have some kind of
> limit or cap on quantity.  They cannot compete with a 1 GIG unlimited fiber
> connection for $50-$70  I seriously doubt Musk’s satellite will be able to
> compete with that.   Or any so-called 5G provider.
>
>
>
> *From:* Jason McKemie
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 21, 2020 5:24 PM
>
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] The Future
>
>
>
> To qualify that a bit, I'm referring to residential users. There may be
> niche markets like HFT that will have benefits when using it.
>
> On Tuesday, January 21, 2020, Jason McKemie  com> wrote:
>
> The difference being that this is a side project for one of the main
> businesses, not their primary purpose. At best I don't think this is going
> to be anything besides a better alternative to other satellite internet
> options.
>
> On Tuesday, January 21, 2020, Darin Steffl 
> wrote:
>
> Guys, lots of misinformation here.
>
>
>
> They are NO plans nor hints of integrating Starlink antennas into Tesla
> cars. It may happen but no one has hinted of this happening. All Tesla's
> have 3G or 4G modems already built-in to them along with WiFi. Updates are
> sent via WiFi first and after the fleet has received the updates, they
> eventually push it to cars via cellular data that haven't updated via WiFi.
>
>
>
> Regarding B2B backhaul, I don't believe you'll see this as an option
> anytime soon for WISP's or other ISP's. They're targeting residential and
> small businesses as well as government contracts. The cost if they did
> offer B2B backhaul services would likely be higher than fiber to your
> network. Please stop thinking this will happen as I bet it will not.
>
>
>
> They may offer a self install option but they'll also have a contractor to
> perform most installs for a cost is my guess. Maybe they'll send a self
> install kit for X price and if you can't get it working, they'll schedule a
> contract install for XX price.
>
>
>
> I'll also say that you should not doubt Elon's passion to achieve great
> things. I have a Tesla and it's a work of art and by far the best vehicle
> I've ever driven. 99% of people who have driven one also think this. Tesla
> is succeeding, SpaceX is on it's way there, The Boring Company is half done
> with their Vegas tunnel, and Starlink will likely be a viable competitor
> for us.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 4:48 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>
> Can you link that? What exactly were they testing?
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 2:36 PM Robert Andrews 
> wrote:
>
> Somehow they passed a first review from US DOD...   Can't be all smoke
> and mirrors in space...
>
> On 01/21/2020 12:18 PM, Ryan Ray wrote:
> > I'm still very wary of this. There seems to be a lot of over-promising
> > under delivering. In typical Elon fashion, no details but the world runs
> > with it and puts out all these data models that make it seem like the
> > second coming of christ. Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and they
> > are starting in 2020, but there's no pictures or details. How is that
> > even possible? We're buying 450b at a more expensive cost and there
> > ain't no phased antenna with motors in it.
> >
> > Then all you read online is the cult following of spaceslax who takes a
> > twitter post as gospel and just keeps perpetuating the same tired
> > information.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:02 AM Bill Prince  >  >> wrote:
> >
> > If the SpaceX Starlink system works at 50% of what it's hyped, it
> will
> > become the future of rural internet. Urban is still going to be
> > dominated (eventually) by fiber for the foreseeable future. Higher
> > speed
> > wireless will be very, very local.
> >
> >
> > bp
> > 
> >
> > On 1/19/2020 6:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
> >  > I don’t know why, but this evening got me thinking about
> > broadband delivery over the past 30 years and the future of
> broadband.
> >  >
> >  > First we had nothing, then along came dial-up and that was
> > amazing and man

Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Ken Hohhof]

Does anyone remember the movie Brainstorm, the one with Christopher Walken and 
Natalie Wood?  For some reason, streaming and especially binge watching reminds 
me of that.

 

How they got all that bandwidth over a phone line though is questionable.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Jason McKemie
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 9:31 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] The Future

 

I agree, cost is reason number one, although I do think non-linear video 
appeals to instant gratification nature as well.

On Tuesday, January 21, 2020, Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com> > wrote:

Maybe it just reflects my customer base, but by far the #1 reason I hear for 
streaming instead of sat TV is cost.  People say DirecTV is too expensive.

 

#2 reason is probably binge watching.

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of ch...@wbmfg.com  
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 7:33 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] The Future

 

Think about how many residential customers no longer have satellite TV.  They 
don’t like antennas and they like the semi al carte that streaming provides.  
With 8K tvs and more content daily the streaming BW is just going to go up and 
up and up.  

 

I think when fiber is compared to any wireless technology it will be the best 
value.  The wireless providers are all going to have some kind of limit or cap 
on quantity.  They cannot compete with a 1 GIG unlimited fiber connection for 
$50-$70  I seriously doubt Musk’s satellite will be able to compete with that.  
 Or any so-called 5G provider.  

 

From: Jason McKemie 

Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 5:24 PM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] The Future

 

To qualify that a bit, I'm referring to residential users. There may be niche 
markets like HFT that will have benefits when using it.

On Tuesday, January 21, 2020, Jason McKemie mailto:j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> > wrote:

The difference being that this is a side project for one of the main 
businesses, not their primary purpose. At best I don't think this is going to 
be anything besides a better alternative to other satellite internet options. 

On Tuesday, January 21, 2020, Darin Steffl mailto:darin.ste...@mnwifi.com> > wrote:

Guys, lots of misinformation here. 

 

They are NO plans nor hints of integrating Starlink antennas into Tesla cars. 
It may happen but no one has hinted of this happening. All Tesla's have 3G or 
4G modems already built-in to them along with WiFi. Updates are sent via WiFi 
first and after the fleet has received the updates, they eventually push it to 
cars via cellular data that haven't updated via WiFi.

 

Regarding B2B backhaul, I don't believe you'll see this as an option anytime 
soon for WISP's or other ISP's. They're targeting residential and small 
businesses as well as government contracts. The cost if they did offer B2B 
backhaul services would likely be higher than fiber to your network. Please 
stop thinking this will happen as I bet it will not.

 

They may offer a self install option but they'll also have a contractor to 
perform most installs for a cost is my guess. Maybe they'll send a self install 
kit for X price and if you can't get it working, they'll schedule a contract 
install for XX price.

 

I'll also say that you should not doubt Elon's passion to achieve great things. 
I have a Tesla and it's a work of art and by far the best vehicle I've ever 
driven. 99% of people who have driven one also think this. Tesla is succeeding, 
SpaceX is on it's way there, The Boring Company is half done with their Vegas 
tunnel, and Starlink will likely be a viable competitor for us.

 

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 4:48 PM Ryan Ray mailto:ryan...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Can you link that? What exactly were they testing?

 

 

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 2:36 PM Robert Andrews mailto:i...@avantwireless.com> > wrote:

Somehow they passed a first review from US DOD...   Can't be all smoke 
and mirrors in space...

On 01/21/2020 12:18 PM, Ryan Ray wrote:
> I'm still very wary of this. There seems to be a lot of over-promising 
> under delivering. In typical Elon fashion, no details but the world runs 
> with it and puts out all these data models that make it seem like the 
> second coming of christ. Customer CPE is a pizza box ufo <$200 and they 
> are starting in 2020, but there's no pictures or details. How is that 
> even possible? We're buying 450b at a more expensive cost and there 
> ain't no phased antenna with motors in it.
> 
> Then all you read online is the cult following of spaceslax who takes a 
> twitter post as gospel and just keeps perpetuating the same tired 
> information.
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:02 AM Bill Prince   
> > wrote:
> 
> If the SpaceX Starlink system works at 50% of what it's hyped, it will
> become 

[AFMUG] MAXtream

[Lincs_Chel]

Hi;

Anyone seen this stuff and possibly using it?   How does it compare / 
compete with Ubiquiti and Cambium's ePMP.    No GPS synch however.  
Seems like it will be better than Mikrotik's TDMA version Nv2.   I do 
like their presentation on the webpage.  Nice graphics.


https://www.tp-link.com/common/Promo/en/MAXtream/index.html

https://www.tp-link.com/en/business-networking/outdoor-radio/


LH

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Re: [AFMUG] OT youtube hell

[Chuck Macenski]

Thanks for that...now my weekend is shot.

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 9:09 PM Robert  wrote:

> Let me see if I can help you out...
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/user/errolprowse
>
> This one is down south from you, I think...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwdVOry0oNF9WIe_3uCfz9Q
>
>
> On 1/21/20 7:01 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
>
> Is there a 12 step program for this?
>
> 10x more addictive than porn.
>
> I love forgings
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[CBB - Jay Fuller]

Sirius/xm customer install wasn't bad
Course it was receive only

Sent from my smartphone

- Reply message -
From: "Jason McKemie" 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Subject: [AFMUG] The Future
Date: Tue, Jan 21, 2020 3:20 PM

Customer installed fixed wireless doesn't work well. I'm sure they'll figure 
this out too late, I still don't understand why big companies refuse to learn 
from other's mistakes.-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] The Future

[Matt Hoppes]

It’s also a very small data stream. End it doesn’t matter if it cuts out once 
in a while.  The satellite is also stationary. It also goes out every time I 
drive underneath trees. 

> On Jan 22, 2020, at 12:08 AM, CBB - Jay Fuller  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Sirius/xm customer install wasn't bad
> Course it was receive only
> 
> Sent from my smartphone
> 
> - Reply message -
> From: "Jason McKemie" 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> Subject: [AFMUG] The Future
> Date: Tue, Jan 21, 2020 3:20 PM
> 
> Customer installed fixed wireless doesn't work well. I'm sure they'll figure 
> this out too late, I still don't understand why big companies refuse to learn 
> from other's mistakes.
> -- 
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
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