> > It feels new to me though even though I've been using computers since the
> > atari800 :)
>
> Right, Computing as we know it today is new. "desktop computing" to be
> specific, has gone from the "early adopter" stage to more mainstream.
however we are in the proccess of changing from "desktop systems" to
embeded systems... current mainstream technologies are constantly being
replaced with "less mainstream" that eventualy become mainstream..
>
> > They came up with an operating system that would run on intel based
> > hardware... that people would want to run the applications they also
> > wanted to run.
>
> Not really... they are just good at marketing it. They bought DOS from
> someone else, and emulated teh Apple OS when they made Win 3.1. They
> also put some bugs into Win 3.1 on purpose so people would think that
> they had to have MS-Dos and that the other people's Dosses wouldn't
> work. The applications come once an OS gets a user base, but to get a
> user base, an OS has to have applications (the chicken and the egg
> deal). There were a lot of applications that ran on DOS (MS-DOS and
> others) and those applications also ran on Win 3.1. So people adopted
> Win 3.1 because it was the first relatively userfriendly interface for
> Dos. (IIRC) And Win 95 ran Win 3.1 programs, and so on. BUT in this
> "upgrade" process, they also added a lot of things, so that their OS quit
> being compatible with other peoples'.
>
granted..
> > what practice do you consider to be illeagle that they commited?
>
> Tying in their products. That's the BIG thing. Say you owned 80% of the
> gas stations, and you were 1 of 50 car manufacturers. Say that at your
> gas stations you sold a special formula of gasoline. Then, you decided
> to change that formula to something else, and kept it secret, and so only
> the cars you manufactured would run on your gasoline, the other cars
> wouldn't. People would have to buy your cars in order to get gasoline,
> and thus you'd end up with a big market share of cars BECAUSE you had a
> big market share in gas stations. MS has been doing this left and right.
If events become too uncomfortable for people.. someone else will come in
and fill the need that is better... Where I live there has been a hardware
chain called "Hecengers(sic)" which started doing a horrible job.. so
someone else with a brian saw demand there.. and built "home depot" which
did a much better job.. and managed to drive the other company out of
business.. the company that owns those gas stations and that car company
has to have consumers stay with the product to succeed.. the 49 other
manufactors could pool together money and make thier own gas stations...
> No, but if people won't buy a computer if it doesn't come with windows,
> and MS says if you don't put IE pre-installed,default on your computers,
> I'll raise the price of windows to $200 from $100, they're making you
> have to price your computers higher and be less competitive with your
> competitors. It's not based on how many computers you sell (bulk-based
> discounts) but just a "we CAN do this so we will" sort of thing. They
> are tying in their browser with their OS which IS illegal if you have a
> monopoly. Essentially it IS forcing vendors to agree to it because
> otehrwise, they would go out of business for not being competitive just
> because of windows' pricing.
Now I'm confused... I've used many diffrent operating systems, and have
yet to find one that doesn't include a browser... Solaris includes
"HotJava" which is solaris's browser.. they put in icon in thier menu for
it.. BeOS includes "NetPositive" which they include a menu item for it..
Granted Linux and most other "FreeOSes" come with more then one browser..
but in the commercial world it seems to be a given that an OS will contain
a browser.. why should microsoft be targeted as a company that souln't be
alowed to have one? How is this Illegal?
VAlinuxsystems came in.. saw there was a demand for linux systems, and
built them..
> > Companies that don't agree with microsoft have managed to stay in
> > busniess.. look at sun, redhat, corel, be, etc...
>
> Yeah, look at them. Sun manufactures servers, the most high-end of which
> don't compare to any machine that runs windows.
I would hardly consider an Ultra5 to be a server, but it could be used as
one I suppose...
> MS has done some shady
> acts in the low-end server range (spreading around FUD mostly) but
> nothing that really compares to what they've done with the desktop
> market. RedHat sells service, and supports Linux... it's probable Redhat
> could make a lot more money if Linux was more popular, and if MS didn't
> take steps to try to extinguish anything that is a threat to Windows
It's the very acts that microsoft is commiting that is helping linux to
become more popular...
> (not
> allowing OEMs to preinstall linux,
VAlinux systems, Microway, Cobaltmicro, Corel.... MS hasn't stopped
them...
> taking over the browser market to slow
Ahh it was ok for netscape to take over, but not microsoft?
> down Java, etc.).
If microsoft broke a contract with sun I belive they should be held
liable... this has nothing to do with them being a monopoly or evil..
> Corel also, their office products used to be a lot
> more popular than MS OFfice, and MS has done a real good job in making
> sure Windows comes with MS word
People started using MS word because it was much friendlyer then
WordPerfect... thier success was based on marketing of their product and
fufilling what they percived customers wanted... note: Macintosh computers
probably wouln't have grown as fast as they did in the begining if it
wasn't for Microsoft Excel
>(which all the other parts are integrated
> with, so people get used to the word interface rather than wordperfects')
people WANTED to click file-save then some archaic set of keystrokes...
> - Corel HAS suffered, too... sure Corel, RedHat, are still in business,
> but what's your point? They have been hurt by MS's strong arm tactics.
companys get hurt (and sometimes helped) by thier compition.. it happens..
it's called caitalism...
>
> > > There are laws about how you can compete. Microsoft fragrantly violates
> > > them left and right.
> >
> > What do those laws actualy do though?
>
> They keep one company from taking over the world,
ahh your trying to kill my plans are you... hmm I'll have to put you on my
blacklist when my company (curious freaks) takes over the world :) hehe
> illegally tying in
> products,
unless your stealing someone intelliectual property (ohhh don't get me
started on this issue ;)).. how can you illegaly tie in a product?
>and charging customers more than they could if they had
> competitors.
They DO have compeditors.. and if they charge more then people are
willing.. someone else will probably step in..
>
> > What exactly do you want the government to do?
>
> Force MS to quit trying to take over Java. Force them to quit tying
> Office, Windows, IE, and other products together with the onese they have
> a monopoly on.
what do you feel that microsoft should be able to include?
solitare? oohh your taking away from card game makers...
mspaint? look out adobe!
telnet?
ftp?
ping?
you know what... I'm HAPPY microsoft includes a browser... because there
are times when I'm installing a new system and I need to obtain something
via http... which I couln't otherwise unless I waited a day to d/l some
other browser via ftp.. including a browser saves me time.. it's a feature
I want when I have to use this miserable beast...
>Make them quit dabbling in all these other industries. (I
> remember when I signed up for Roadrunner high speed cable access, and
> they FORCED me, WINTOUT asking me to download IE AND install it - why? bc
> ms has its fingers in Roadrunner/Time Warner and some sort of deal).
What industries do you feel they can and can't get involved in? computers
everywhere need an OS..
> Make them share the inner workings of Windows (the APIs they love to
> change once people get a windows emulator for Linux/Solaris/etc
> working).
This would be nice.. but a company should be alowed to have trade
secrets...
> Force MS to stick to STANDARDS (do you know how much I HATE
> browsing the web on my Sun Ultra 5 box with solaris and finding so many
> pages that have question marks instead of apostrophes (along with other
> changes) just because MS can't stick to STANDARD ASCII and has to change
> it and make the WEB of all things proprietary)
ahh force microsoft to craft thier software to the whims of some
oganization.. lovely..
>
> > oganizations/corperations.. look into alot of those laws that were written
> > and what they accomplised... you might be quite surprised...
>
> Yeah, we pay .33 for stamps... if the Postal service was deregulated,
> we'd have 10 mailmen coming a day, and because of lower volume they'd
> each be delivering fewer letters which would cost more to mail.
well because of the regulations... I can't start a simple courier route
without worring about being arrested or having to go through alot of legal
mumbojumbo..
>
> > I agree microsoft will not be put out of business.. infact I'm quite sure
> > whatever measures are enacted.. they will at somepoint intime backfire...
>
> This has actually been helping everyone a lot, by MS being in court and
> having all their actions under scrutiny.
as worried as I am about what actions may be taken against them.. I do
find it nice that people can see what they have done..
> Now OEMs are freer to sell
> computers w/o an OS, sell computers with Linux, etc.
Um VAlinux systems was started well before this trial started...
> Why, just a few
> years ago, my company had to pay EXTRA to buy laptops without Windows
> installed!
sucks ehhh...
>
> This case is close to my heart, and I was overjoyed when I read the news
> on Fri. The sooner this thing comes to a close, the less damage MS can
> do, and the better off we all will be.
don't count your chickens until they hatch
>
> Dianna
>
> ************
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
>
************
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
