It's a cluster of topics, i.e., if we're talking about safe spaces (which we are, that was explicitly stated), then we're also in the area of micoaggressions and trigger warnings. We're going to need to sit down and think about what behavior we're already displaying that conforms to the definition of microaggression and what kinds of clause we should state up front before saying something that might be hurtful to the listener based on their suffering and injustice in the past (or present).
Again, I'm not against any of these things, I just wonder whether we're not using tools and asking questions that may not be relevant at all. I.e., beyond the "from personal experience, I believe there is a problem" and the journey we're now starting to articulate a problem, etc, I just don't see what we're trying to achieve, at all. It's really diversity for the sake of diversity and the fact that a project has a high dominance of one category or another is in itself a reason to ask why that is and how to fix that. I just don't see the problem and that, of course, is exactly the problem, because I'm male and so on and so on. We do need to find out whether people are not comfortable participating in Apache projects and why -- and my guess is it has if anything to do with language barriers and personality aspects (e.g., being shy or not sufficiently expressive) and a feeling that one isn't skilled enough, not whether one is a transgender African Eskimo, or something. Gj On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 6:04 PM Alex Harui <aha...@adobe.com.invalid> wrote: > I think I understand how microaggressions relate to this topic, but I > don't understand how "trigger warnings" relate. Can someone explain? > > Thanks, > -Alex > > On 5/9/19, 12:28 PM, "Geertjan Wielenga" <geert...@apache.org> wrote: > > I'm not assuming at all that a hijab signifies sexism. Though I'm also > not > assuming that if every single woman in the world were to deny that a > hijab > does not signify sexism that therefore a hijab does not signify > sexism. (I > have noted though that not one single man wears a hijab, but let's > leave > the hijab discussion, that's not the point but an illustration.) > > The problems "there" are actually "here". I.e., when we're talking > diversity, we're I think inevitably going to be talking creating safe > spaces, which means, as well, trigger warnings and microaggressions. > All of > which are important and should be addressed. > > I think my point is that we don't really have a global language of > inclusivity -- and sure everyone should feel welcome at conferences > and so > on. But if we're going to be trying to figure out what blockages there > are > in the participation of contributors based on the subcategories of > identification to which they subscribe voluntarily or by birth -- where > does it end? I'm uncomfortable with the survey, to be honest. Though of > course it's important to do our best to ensure that everyone feels > comfortable to contribute regardless of the various identities they > hold. > > Gj > > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 9:18 PM Ross Gardler > <ross.gard...@microsoft.com.invalid> wrote: > > > It is very complicated. For example, your assumption that the Hijab > > signifies sexism is contested by every single woman I have known who > wears > > one (which admittedly is a low number and not at all representative > of the > > bigger picture). > > > > That said, there are problems everywhere. We can't solve the problems > > there, it's not our place to. But we can solve our problems here in > the ASF. > > > > For example, if a woman is attending an ASF event in a Hijab and we > assume > > she is wearing it because of inequality in her culture then we are > not > > creating a welcoming environment. We are creating barriers between > her and > > us because of assumptions based on what our own culture teaches us. > In my > > (admittedly limited) experience such a woman is likely wearing the > Hajib > > because she chooses to do so and we should respect her right to make > that > > choice. > > > > If it's not a choice for her then it's not something that we can > directly > > influence but we can still make her welcome within our community. > > > > Ross > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Geertjan Wielenga <geert...@apache.org> > > Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2019 11:27 AM > > To: diversity@apache.org > > Subject: Diversity in a diverse world > > > > Hi all, > > > > Just a trigger warning here -- I was in Riyadh in Saudi Arabia last > week, > > giving a course in which Apache NetBeans was used. There were 8 > people on > > the course, three of which were women completely covered in black > hijabs > > with only their eyes showing. I do think safe spaces, > microaggressions, and > > trigger warnings are very important -- but in an ecosystem where > there are > > literally women in the back of the classroom with only their eyes > showing, > > it seems complicated to address this diversity topic at all, unless > we're > > not concerned about the diversity issues connected to superiority, > > colonialism, and ethnocentrism, etc. > > > > And... a year ago those three women would not have been in a > computer class > > at all, so the fact that they were even in the room was a sign of > massive > > progress. > > > > Just want to raise this because what some might see as diversity > could be > > pretty problematic in a global context -- unless we're comfortable, > or at > > least very prepared, to deal with the fall out. > > > > Gj > > > > >
