I give up.
On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 12:23 PM, cm wrote:
> I think there are too many unknowns here. All we get to do is look at
> the finished frame and speculate as to the quality we cant see. We
> don't get to see the tubes being mitered, prepped, brazed or anything
> else until it is done. We d
us".
>
> Angus
>
> On Jan 28, 5:04 am, zeidler.rob...@gmail.com wrote:
>> How so my friend?
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Angus
>>
>> Sender: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
>> Dat
I think there are too many unknowns here. All we get to do is look at
the finished frame and speculate as to the quality we cant see. We
don't get to see the tubes being mitered, prepped, brazed or anything
else until it is done. We don't know the brazers or the amount of time
they spend on each fr
...and I might be mistaken also. A million apologies if that's the case.
On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 10:22 AM, James Warren wrote:
>
> But I'm pretty sure your first sentence below is false. I remember the
> development of the Atlantis, and Grant's discussions in the readers talking
> about going
But I'm pretty sure your first sentence below is false. I remember the
development of the Atlantis, and Grant's discussions in the readers talking
about going with Toyo to build it exclusively (same thing later with
Rambouillet). I'm pretty sure the establishment of Toyo as the builder had
not
I think Toyo was a second choice because Waterford either couldn't or
wouldn't keep up with demand. And that kind of makes my point. Maybe
he'll (GP) browse this and weigh in real the actual story. I'm also
pretty sure Chris @ VO made attempts to get stuff made here but it
didn't work out. Agai
On Sat, 2011-01-29 at 06:18 -0800, eddie...@gmail.com wrote:
> I was skeptical of Maxway when Grant contracted them for the Bleriot,
> but once I got my frameset I found it was as nicely built as my
> Rambouillet and Atlantis in the areas that matter. Maybe not as nicely
> painted, but it was much
This is such a good discussion, because it points out that Grant P. is
looking out for his customers. If someone asked me, which builder
would you rather have -- Waterford or Toyo? -- I'd say, sure. It's
nice that Waterford is U.S.-based, but I look at it as supporting
Rivendell first, and I'll let
uot; and "us".
>
> Angus
>
> On Jan 28, 5:04 am, zeidler.rob...@gmail.com wrote:
>> How so my friend?
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>>
>> -Original Message-----
>> From: Angus
>>
>> Sender: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
1 03:02:19
> To: RBW Owners Bunch
> Reply-To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
>
> I think, Robert, that this all depends upon ones perspective.
>
> Angus
>
> On Jan 27, 1:45 pm, robert zeidler wrote:
> > If they
No of course not. Just home-team 1st trade.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-Original Message-
From: Steve Palincsar
Sender: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 18:20:39
To:
Reply-To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus
On Fri, 2011-01-28 at 18:05 -0500, robert zeidler wrote:
> I'm not saying we have to be "green", but every product has to be
> shipped by plane, boat or something equally inefficient from a long
> way away. You'll have to ride it every day, a long way to offset
> that. The wages are paid to someo
I'm not saying we have to be "green", but every product has to be
shipped by plane, boat or something equally inefficient from a long
way away. You'll have to ride it every day, a long way to offset
that. The wages are paid to someone who will spend that money... not
here. You on the other hand
nal Message-
> From: Angus
>
> Sender: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 03:02:19
> To: RBW Owners Bunch
> Reply-To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
>
> I think, Robert, that this all de
How so my friend?
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-Original Message-
From: Angus
Sender: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 03:02:19
To: RBW Owners Bunch
Reply-To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
I think
I think, Robert, that this all depends upon ones perspective.
Angus
On Jan 27, 1:45 pm, robert zeidler wrote:
> If they are built here, they are better. Think about everything bad
> that's associated w/ a Taiwanese made product.
>
> On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 7:45 AM, Angus wrote:
> > Bob,
>
> >
On Jan 27, 11:38 pm, doug peterson wrote:
> but about subtle specifics of
> interest to velohistorians an bike nerds. The question remains
> unanswered. For example, are their differences between the acclaimed
> Toyo and current Waterford forks? What about subtle bends in the
> chainstay and
I have an Atlantis built in early 2009 by Mark Nobilette. It's a 61,
I waited almost a year for it. It's an excellent bike!
On Jan 27, 7:23 pm, William Pustow wrote:
> My 2007 Hilsen was made by Waterford. It took awhile because the story I
> got from Rivendell was that Grant was not happy w
I wouldn't doubt that by now the OP (Bob) has given up. But recall
his original question:
This is not questionaing the
obviously excellent Riv quality, but about subtle specifics of
interest to velohistorians an bike nerds. The question remains
unanswered. For example, are their differences bet
No, this one is the invisible Lobster hand, the one that, hidden,
benevolently pats each individual on the head.
Patrick "skipped my Wealth of Nations Seminars in college" Moore
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 5:08 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-01-27 at 16:57 -0700, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
>> T
On Jan 27, 11:45 am, robert zeidler wrote:
> If they are built here, they are better. Think about everything bad
> that's associated w/ a Taiwanese made product.
OK, I give up. What's bad that's associated with a Taiwanese-made
product?
(BTW, Taiwan != China)
--
You received this message bec
My 2007 Hilsen was made by Waterford. It took awhile because the story I got
from Rivendell was that Grant was not happy with the fork and was having Mark
Nobilette build it.
Bill - who loves his Homer and thinks the fork was waiting for.
On Jan 27, 2011, at 3:45 PM, JoelMatthews wrote:
On Thu, 2011-01-27 at 16:57 -0700, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
> This I agree with, by and large.
>
> Of course, you know, the Great Invisible Lobster Hand In The Sky
> secretly and silently coordinates all the infinitely various and
> multitudinous single acts of greed into a general, All Pervading
> Ha
Great!! I'll get the butter and the lemons!
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 6:57 PM, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
> This I agree with, by and large.
>
> Of course, you know, the Great Invisible Lobster Hand In The Sky
> secretly and silently coordinates all the infinitely various and
> multitudinous single acts
This I agree with, by and large.
Of course, you know, the Great Invisible Lobster Hand In The Sky
secretly and silently coordinates all the infinitely various and
multitudinous single acts of greed into a general, All Pervading
Harmony that lifts every boat higher and higher toward the Empyrean
un
Anything that can be gotten here, as long as it's not prohibitively
more expensive, should be. Can make a BMW (m/c) here, I get it, but
if, as is the supposed case with these frames when there is no other
real difference. Get it made here. Who doesn't see the logic of
that?
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011
Those New Zealand and Aussie wool baselayers are a curse on the global
economy. I can only countenance bicycle equipment and accoutrements
delivered themselves by bicycle.
I kid! I kid!
On Jan 27, 2:53 pm, Steve Palincsar wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-01-27 at 14:15 -0600, Shaun Meehan wrote:
> > On T
On Thu, 2011-01-27 at 14:15 -0600, Shaun Meehan wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 1:46 PM, robert zeidler
> wrote:
> If it's made here, it's better. Think of everything bad (and
> there are many things) associated w/ a Taiwanese made product.
>
> None of the Atlantis frames have e
No brother, sorry, no tongue-in-cheek here. See my other post.
RGZ-living w/ VT-like snowfall Z.
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 4:46 PM, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 12:46 PM, robert zeidler
> wrote:
>> If it's made here, it's better. Think of everything bad (and there
>> are many t
My faux pas, but I'm not talking about quality, but rather sourcing
from overseas. Not a flag-waving exercise, though I'm beginning to
thik we should do more of that, but just the fact that the profit,
wages etc., go overseas rather than someone here reaping that benefit,
which we all will end up p
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 12:46 PM, robert zeidler
wrote:
> If it's made here, it's better. Think of everything bad (and there
> are many things) associated w/ a Taiwanese made product.
?
Patrick "thinking until it hurts" Moore who is just beginning,
*beginning*, mind you, to suspect that RZ
> For example, are their differences between the acclaimed Toyo and current
> Waterford forks?
Does Waterford make the Atlantis forks?
Nobilette made the early Waterford Hilsen forks.
On Jan 26, 12:42 pm, Bob wrote:
> The current Riv Atlantis is built by Waterford. My original question
> conc
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 1:46 PM, robert zeidler wrote:
> If it's made here, it's better. Think of everything bad (and there
> are many things) associated w/ a Taiwanese made product.
>
None of the Atlantis frames have ever been built in Taiwan. At least not
that I know of.
They've only been buil
If it's made here, it's better. Think of everything bad (and there
are many things) associated w/ a Taiwanese made product.
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 1:50 AM, James Warren wrote:
> I'm not sure if this is so easy to answer. I think in the small details, the
> bikes are always morphing some. My ea
If they are built here, they are better. Think about everything bad
that's associated w/ a Taiwanese made product.
On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 7:45 AM, Angus wrote:
> Bob,
>
> I've had two Rivendells (non Atlantis) built by Waterford. They were
> very well done.
>
> I've had two Rivendell (one an A
I'm not sure if this is so easy to answer. I think in the small details, the
bikes are always morphing some. My early Toyo Atlantis from 2001 has pretty
substantial differences from later Toyo models. For example, mine is a 64 frame
size, but at that time, the top tube on that size was 62 cm. Af
Or Sam Hillborne!
On Jan 26, 2011, at 8:29 PM, doug peterson wrote:
> If in
> doubt, just get an Atlantis.
>
> dougP
>
>
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To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroup
Over the years, there were numerous changes from batch to batch, even among
just Toyo Atlantis frames. Different lugs, different headbadges, different
decals, different braze-ons, different forks, and it seems like tire
clearance possibly improved in later incarnations. I have not seen a
Waterf
The current Riv Atlantis is built by Waterford. My original question
concerned whether, excluding paint, braze ons and probably tubing, the
Waterford is identical to the Toyo build. This is not questionaing the
obviously excellent Riv quality, but about subtle specifics of
interest to velohistoria
Waterford). Hunqapillar, Gomez, Foy, Amos, Simpleone as
> > Taiwan made (Maxway)
>
> >
> > From: Ryan
> > To: RBW Owners Bunch
> > Sent: Wed, January 26, 2011 12:19:28 PM
> > Subject: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlant
Hilsen as US made (Waterford). Hunqapillar, Gomez, Foy, Amos, Simpleone as
> Taiwan made (Maxway)
>
>
> From: Ryan
> To: RBW Owners Bunch
> Sent: Wed, January 26, 2011 12:19:28 PM
> Subject: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
>
> As fa
: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
As far as I know, Atlantises (Atlanti?) were only Toyo-built. But I'm
sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
My impression is that later models...I'm thinking of the AHH in
particular ...were either Toyo or Waterford-built. And as
As far as I know, Atlantises (Atlanti?) were only Toyo-built. But I'm
sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
My impression is that later models...I'm thinking of the AHH in
particular ...were either Toyo or Waterford-built. And as others on
this thread have noted, the Sams are either buil
I have seen several Waterford and Toyo built Rivs and the only obvious
differences are the things you point out-- braze ons, color
(Waterfords seem lighter/ millky). I would think any variation would
come from the individuals who braze them-- not the factory they were
brazed in.
Cheers!
cm
--
Yo
I am the last one to comment on this but maybe I can learn something. I was
under the impression that the geometry was mandated by Rivendell period. I
know on the AHH the only differences were things like 2 water bottle cage
mount vs three, a nice paint accent on the fork on one and not on the
Grant has emphasized the special qualities of the Toyo fork and how
such geometry could not be matched on the Taiwan Sams. So is the
Waterford a match or improvement over the Toyo edition? Also, does
the Waterford Atlantis have the same impressive chainstay geometry and
form of the Toyo? I don't
Bob,
I've had two Rivendells (non Atlantis) built by Waterford. They were
very well done.
I've had two Rivendell (one an Atlantis) built by Toyo. They were
also very well done.
I have not been able to detect a difference.
Angus
On Jan 22, 10:34 pm, Bob wrote:
> How does the Toyo built Atlan
The pride of having something still built in the good ole US of A.
The reduction in pollution caused by shipping the frame all the way
across the Pacific Ocean.
On Jan 22, 8:34 pm, Bob wrote:
> How does the Toyo built Atlantis differ in quality and/or geometry
> from the Waterford edition? Excl
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