On 01/21/2015 03:37 PM, Tim Daneliuk wrote:
>
> I wrote some rambling disquisition on these matters some years ago ...
>
> http://www.tundraware.com/TechnicalNotes/Python-Is-Middleware
>
> http://www.tundraware.com/TechnicalNotes/How-To-Pick-A-Programming-Language
Very enjoyable, thank you!
On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 6:59 PM, Steven D'Aprano
wrote:
> If a professional games company has their coders writing the plot and
> designing the graphics, they deserve to fail. (Well, that's a bit harsh...
> there's still room in the world for small indy companies, and even
> one-person projects.) Y
Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 10:54 AM, Albert van der Horst
> wrote:
>> Not to mention that mostly a game is understood, not as something like
>> chess, but an FPS (first person shooter) game.
>> But that is real time programming, one league beyond beginners
>> procedural (seque
On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 10:54 AM, Albert van der Horst
wrote:
> Not to mention that mostly a game is understood, not as something like
> chess, but an FPS (first person shooter) game.
> But that is real time programming, one league beyond beginners
> procedural (sequential) or functional programmin
In article ,
Chris Angelico wrote:
>On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
>>> If someone's unfazed by the "it'll take you years before you can
>>> actually write a saleable game" consideration,
>>
>> Wanting to write games is a completely different topic than wanting to
>> sell them
In article ,
Tim Chase wrote:
>On 2015-01-22 03:34, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled "What Killed
>> Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby".
>
>Holy pacing, Batman. Watching it at 2x leaves me wondering how much
>of the stage was worn off during the presentati
On 01/23/2015 04:57 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 9:51 AM, Tim Daneliuk wrote:
>> On 01/21/2015 05:55 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Tim Daneliuk
>>> wrote:
I find these kinds of discussions sort of silly. Once there is a critical
in 734949 20150124 113420 Gene Heskett wrote:
>On Saturday 24 January 2015 03:09:51 Bob Martin did opine
>And Gene did reply:
>> in 734904 20150123 225104 Tim Daneliuk wrote:
>> >On 01/21/2015 05:55 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> >> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Tim Daneliuk
> wrote:
>> >>> I f
in 734937 20150124 081658 Chris Angelico wrote:
>On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 7:09 PM, Bob Martin wrote:
>> http://www.oorexx.org/
>>
>> I use ooRexx every day, on Linux mostly, but also available on Windows.
>
>So the question really is: Why that, as opposed to some other
>language? Can you say, in o
On Saturday 24 January 2015 03:09:51 Bob Martin did opine
And Gene did reply:
> in 734904 20150123 225104 Tim Daneliuk wrote:
> >On 01/21/2015 05:55 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> >> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Tim Daneliuk
wrote:
> >>> I find these kinds of discussions sort of silly. Once t
On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 7:09 PM, Bob Martin wrote:
> http://www.oorexx.org/
>
> I use ooRexx every day, on Linux mostly, but also available on Windows.
So the question really is: Why that, as opposed to some other
language? Can you say, in one sentence, what ooRexx has that other
languages don't
in 734904 20150123 225104 Tim Daneliuk wrote:
>On 01/21/2015 05:55 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Tim Daneliuk wrote:
>>> I find these kinds of discussions sort of silly. Once there is a critical
>>> mass of installed base, no language EVER dies.
>>
>> Not sure ab
On 1/23/2015 2:48 PM, sohcahto...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, January 22, 2015 at 9:39:53 PM UTC-8, alex23 wrote:
I seem to recall an interview with someone from Blizzard Entertainment
mentioning that the first Warcraft game (Released in 1994) was developed by
passing around floppy disks w
On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 9:51 AM, Tim Daneliuk wrote:
> On 01/21/2015 05:55 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Tim Daneliuk wrote:
>>> I find these kinds of discussions sort of silly. Once there is a critical
>>> mass of installed base, no language EVER dies.
>>
>> Not
On 01/21/2015 05:55 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Tim Daneliuk wrote:
>> I find these kinds of discussions sort of silly. Once there is a critical
>> mass of installed base, no language EVER dies.
>
> Not sure about that. Back in the 1990s, I wrote most of my code
On Thursday, January 22, 2015 at 9:39:53 PM UTC-8, alex23 wrote:
> On 22/01/2015 1:23 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > Modern games *are* part of "today's complex application systems", and games
> > developers may need the same skills used by "serious developers"
>
> I wish more game developers woul
On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 4:35 PM, alex23 wrote:
> On 22/01/2015 11:45 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>> It's not a terrible justification for getting into programming. But
>> writing games is (almost always) a terrible way to start programming.
>
>
> However, modifying games, I would argue, is a grea
On 22/01/2015 1:23 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
Modern games *are* part of "today's complex application systems", and games
developers may need the same skills used by "serious developers"
I wish more game developers would understand this. I've lost count of
the number of games that have failed
On 22/01/2015 11:45 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
It's not a terrible justification for getting into programming. But
writing games is (almost always) a terrible way to start programming.
However, modifying games, I would argue, is a great way. The
ComputerCraft mod for Minecraft, for example, add
On 2015-01-22, Tim Chase wrote:
> On 2015-01-21 23:10, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> I happily ignored PHP until a couple years back when we decided to
>> use PHP for the web site on a small embedded Linux system.
> [snip]
>> I briefly considered trying to switch to Python, but the Python
>> footprint
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 07:26:31AM -0500, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Still (somehow) alive in neo-Amiga platforms like AmigaOS4.x, MorphOS
> > and AROS. I know that's as good as dead but there are still people
> > writing AREXX glue code.
> He asked about REXX, not AREXX. There is no comparison betwe
On Wednesday 21 January 2015 23:46:09 Emil Oppeln-Bronikowski did opine
And Gene did reply:
> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 10:55:27AM +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > Where's REXX today?
>
> Still (somehow) alive in neo-Amiga platforms like AmigaOS4.x, MorphOS
> and AROS. I know that's as good as dead
On 22/01/2015 02:11, Rick Johnson wrote:
On Wednesday, January 21, 2015 at 10:34:40 AM UTC-6, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled
"What Killed Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby". (No cheering,
that sort of attitude is one of the things that killed
Smalltalk.) Al
On 1/21/2015 7:16 PM, Mario Figueiredo wrote:
In article <873873ae91@jester.gateway.sonic.net>,
no.email@nospam.invalid says...
Steven D'Aprano writes:
In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled "What Killed
Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby"... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX3iRjK
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 10:55:27AM +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> Where's REXX today?
Still (somehow) alive in neo-Amiga platforms like AmigaOS4.x, MorphOS and AROS.
I know that's as good as dead but there are still people writing AREXX glue
code.
--
vag·a·bond adjective \ˈva-gə-ˌbänd\
a :
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Steven D'Aprano
wrote:
> What we need is more programmers with a passion for their job, and if that
> means learning to write games, then so be it. One of the problems with "9 to
> 5 code monkeys" is that programming is just a job for them. They do the
> absolute m
Mario Figueiredo wrote:
> In article ,
> ros...@gmail.com says...
>>
>> Bad idea. Better to pick a language that makes it easy to get things
>> right, and then work on the fun side with third-party libraries, than
>> to tempt people in with "hey look how easy it is to do X" and then
>> have them
On 2015-01-21 23:10, Grant Edwards wrote:
> I happily ignored PHP until a couple years back when we decided to
> use PHP for the web site on a small embedded Linux system.
[snip]
> I briefly considered trying to switch to Python, but the Python
> footprint is just too big...
Interesting that your
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 1:59 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber
wrote:
> To my mind, what killed REXX is that most operating systems just don't
> support its key feature well: ADDRESS targets!
>
> When the only target turns ADDRESS into the equivalent of os.system()
> (or some variant of popen(
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
>> If someone's unfazed by the "it'll take you years before you can
>> actually write a saleable game" consideration,
>
> Wanting to write games is a completely different topic than wanting to
> sell them. It's just like any other creative outlet
Chris Angelico writes:
> Either you pick up a super-restrictive "hey look, you can build a game
> with just point and click" system, which isn't teaching programming at
> all, or you end up getting bogged down in the massive details of what
> it takes to write code.
Code Hero ran into various obs
On Wednesday, January 21, 2015 at 10:34:40 AM UTC-6, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled
> "What Killed Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby". (No cheering,
> that sort of attitude is one of the things that killed
> Smalltalk.) Although Martin discusses Ruby, the le
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 12:38 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Mario Figueiredo writes:
>> "I want to become a programmer so I can make games" is, on the vast
>> majority of cases, the quote of someone who will never become a
>> programmer. Why should teachers reward that kind of thought?
>
> I don't see
On 01/21/2015 05:36 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 11:09 AM, Mario Figueiredo wrote:
>> "I want to become a programmer so I can make games" is, on the vast
>> majority of cases, the quote of someone who will never become a
>> programmer. Why should teachers reward that kind of
Mario Figueiredo writes:
> "I want to become a programmer so I can make games" is, on the vast
> majority of cases, the quote of someone who will never become a
> programmer. Why should teachers reward that kind of thought?
I don't see what the problem is. Kids are interested in games and th
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 11:09 AM, Mario Figueiredo wrote:
> "I want to become a programmer so I can make games" is, on the vast
> majority of cases, the quote of someone who will never become a
> programmer. Why should teachers reward that kind of thought?
How about "I want to become a programmer
On Wednesday, January 21, 2015 at 4:10:08 PM UTC-8, Mario Figueiredo wrote:
> In article ,
> ros...@gmail.com says...
> >
> > Bad idea. Better to pick a language that makes it easy to get things
> > right, and then work on the fun side with third-party libraries, than
> > to tempt people in with
Grant Edwards :
> [At the time, a couple of us could stumble around with HTML enough to
> generate web pages that looked fresh out of 1995, but that was about
> it. The web pages in our older devices looked rather "retro" and had
> pretty limited functionality.]
I miss that plain old look of web
On Wednesday, January 21, 2015 at 11:18:54 AM UTC-8, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2015-01-21, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled "What Killed
> > Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby".
>
> But does he answer the more important question "and can we use it to
> kill
In article <873873ae91@jester.gateway.sonic.net>,
no.email@nospam.invalid says...
>
> Steven D'Aprano writes:
> > In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled "What Killed
> > Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby"... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX3iRjKj7C0
>
> That's an hour-long video;
In article ,
ros...@gmail.com says...
>
> Bad idea. Better to pick a language that makes it easy to get things
> right, and then work on the fun side with third-party libraries, than
> to tempt people in with "hey look how easy it is to do X" and then
> have them stuck with an inferior or flawed
On 01/21/2015 04:37 PM, Tim Daneliuk wrote:
> On 01/21/2015 10:34 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled "What Killed
>> Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby". (No cheering, that sort of attitude is one of
>> the things that killed Smalltalk.) Although Martin disc
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 10:46 AM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Meanwhile, there's this: http://prog21.dadgum.com/203.html
> "Retiring Python as a Teaching Language"
>
> tl;dr: he's switched to recommending Javascript as a first language
> instead of Python, since JS makes it easier to write graphics and g
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Tim Daneliuk wrote:
> I find these kinds of discussions sort of silly. Once there is a critical
> mass of installed base, no language EVER dies.
Not sure about that. Back in the 1990s, I wrote most of my code in
REXX, either command-line or using a GUI toolkit l
Steven D'Aprano writes:
> In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled "What Killed
> Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby"... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX3iRjKj7C0
That's an hour-long video; could someone who's watched it give a brief
summary?
Meanwhile, there's this: http://prog21.dadgum
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 10:19 AM, Anthony Papillion
wrote:
> To be fair, PHP has come a long way in the last few years and, I hear,
> there's movements within the community to make it better. Namespaces
> were a bit deal as were a few other things. Personally, while I am
> LOVING Python, I'd be sa
On 01/21/2015 10:34 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled "What Killed
> Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby". (No cheering, that sort of attitude is one of
> the things that killed Smalltalk.) Although Martin discusses Ruby, the
> lessons could also apply to Pyt
On 01/21/2015 04:35 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 6:18 AM, Grant Edwards
> wrote:
>> On 2015-01-21, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>> In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled "What Killed
>>> Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby".
>>
>> But does he answer the more important que
On 2015-01-21, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 6:18 AM, Grant Edwards
> wrote:
>> On 2015-01-21, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>> In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled "What Killed
>>> Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby".
>>
>> But does he answer the more important question "a
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 6:18 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2015-01-21, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled "What Killed
>> Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby".
>
> But does he answer the more important question "and can we use it to
> kill PHP?".
PHP won't die
On 2015-01-21, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled "What Killed
> Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby".
But does he answer the more important question "and can we use it to
kill PHP?".
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! What UNIVERSE is
On 2015-01-22 03:34, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled "What Killed
> Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby".
Holy pacing, Batman. Watching it at 2x leaves me wondering how much
of the stage was worn off during the presentation.
> And now it's all but dead. Why
Hi Steven, you wrote:
> In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled "What Killed
> Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby".
I've yet to watch the video, I'll do that later tonight, but I also remember
what DHH said about Smalltalk in his FLOSS interview about Rails, with Randal
Schwartz, in July
In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled "What Killed
Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby". (No cheering, that sort of attitude is one of
the things that killed Smalltalk.) Although Martin discusses Ruby, the
lessons could also apply to Python.
Video is available here:
http://www.youtube.com/
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