On 01/21/2015 03:37 PM, Tim Daneliuk wrote:
>
> I wrote some rambling disquisition on these matters some years ago ...
>
> http://www.tundraware.com/TechnicalNotes/Python-Is-Middleware
>
> http://www.tundraware.com/TechnicalNotes/How-To-Pick-A-Programming-Language
Very enjoyable, thank you!
On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 6:59 PM, Steven D'Aprano
wrote:
> If a professional games company has their coders writing the plot and
> designing the graphics, they deserve to fail. (Well, that's a bit harsh...
> there's still room in the world for small indy companies, and even
> one-person projects.) Y
Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 10:54 AM, Albert van der Horst
> wrote:
>> Not to mention that mostly a game is understood, not as something like
>> chess, but an FPS (first person shooter) game.
>> But that is real time programming, one league beyond beginners
>> procedural (seque
On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 10:54 AM, Albert van der Horst
wrote:
> Not to mention that mostly a game is understood, not as something like
> chess, but an FPS (first person shooter) game.
> But that is real time programming, one league beyond beginners
> procedural (sequential) or functional programmin
In article ,
Chris Angelico wrote:
>On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
>>> If someone's unfazed by the "it'll take you years before you can
>>> actually write a saleable game" consideration,
>>
>> Wanting to write games is a completely different topic than wanting to
>> sell them
In article ,
Tim Chase wrote:
>On 2015-01-22 03:34, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled "What Killed
>> Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby".
>
>Holy pacing, Batman. Watching it at 2x leaves me wondering how much
>of the stage was worn off during the presentati
On 01/23/2015 04:57 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 9:51 AM, Tim Daneliuk wrote:
>> On 01/21/2015 05:55 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Tim Daneliuk
>>> wrote:
I find these kinds of discussions sort of silly. Once there is a critical
in 734949 20150124 113420 Gene Heskett wrote:
>On Saturday 24 January 2015 03:09:51 Bob Martin did opine
>And Gene did reply:
>> in 734904 20150123 225104 Tim Daneliuk wrote:
>> >On 01/21/2015 05:55 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> >> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Tim Daneliuk
> wrote:
>> >>> I f
in 734937 20150124 081658 Chris Angelico wrote:
>On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 7:09 PM, Bob Martin wrote:
>> http://www.oorexx.org/
>>
>> I use ooRexx every day, on Linux mostly, but also available on Windows.
>
>So the question really is: Why that, as opposed to some other
>language? Can you say, in o
On Saturday 24 January 2015 03:09:51 Bob Martin did opine
And Gene did reply:
> in 734904 20150123 225104 Tim Daneliuk wrote:
> >On 01/21/2015 05:55 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> >> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Tim Daneliuk
wrote:
> >>> I find these kinds of discussions sort of silly. Once t
On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 7:09 PM, Bob Martin wrote:
> http://www.oorexx.org/
>
> I use ooRexx every day, on Linux mostly, but also available on Windows.
So the question really is: Why that, as opposed to some other
language? Can you say, in one sentence, what ooRexx has that other
languages don't
in 734904 20150123 225104 Tim Daneliuk wrote:
>On 01/21/2015 05:55 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Tim Daneliuk wrote:
>>> I find these kinds of discussions sort of silly. Once there is a critical
>>> mass of installed base, no language EVER dies.
>>
>> Not sure ab
On 1/23/2015 2:48 PM, sohcahto...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, January 22, 2015 at 9:39:53 PM UTC-8, alex23 wrote:
I seem to recall an interview with someone from Blizzard Entertainment
mentioning that the first Warcraft game (Released in 1994) was developed by
passing around floppy disks w
On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 9:51 AM, Tim Daneliuk wrote:
> On 01/21/2015 05:55 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Tim Daneliuk wrote:
>>> I find these kinds of discussions sort of silly. Once there is a critical
>>> mass of installed base, no language EVER dies.
>>
>> Not
On 01/21/2015 05:55 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Tim Daneliuk wrote:
>> I find these kinds of discussions sort of silly. Once there is a critical
>> mass of installed base, no language EVER dies.
>
> Not sure about that. Back in the 1990s, I wrote most of my code
On Thursday, January 22, 2015 at 9:39:53 PM UTC-8, alex23 wrote:
> On 22/01/2015 1:23 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > Modern games *are* part of "today's complex application systems", and games
> > developers may need the same skills used by "serious developers"
>
> I wish more game developers woul
On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 4:35 PM, alex23 wrote:
> On 22/01/2015 11:45 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>> It's not a terrible justification for getting into programming. But
>> writing games is (almost always) a terrible way to start programming.
>
>
> However, modifying games, I would argue, is a grea
On 22/01/2015 1:23 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
Modern games *are* part of "today's complex application systems", and games
developers may need the same skills used by "serious developers"
I wish more game developers would understand this. I've lost count of
the number of games that have failed
On 22/01/2015 11:45 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
It's not a terrible justification for getting into programming. But
writing games is (almost always) a terrible way to start programming.
However, modifying games, I would argue, is a great way. The
ComputerCraft mod for Minecraft, for example, add
On 2015-01-22, Tim Chase wrote:
> On 2015-01-21 23:10, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> I happily ignored PHP until a couple years back when we decided to
>> use PHP for the web site on a small embedded Linux system.
> [snip]
>> I briefly considered trying to switch to Python, but the Python
>> footprint
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 07:26:31AM -0500, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Still (somehow) alive in neo-Amiga platforms like AmigaOS4.x, MorphOS
> > and AROS. I know that's as good as dead but there are still people
> > writing AREXX glue code.
> He asked about REXX, not AREXX. There is no comparison betwe
On Wednesday 21 January 2015 23:46:09 Emil Oppeln-Bronikowski did opine
And Gene did reply:
> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 10:55:27AM +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > Where's REXX today?
>
> Still (somehow) alive in neo-Amiga platforms like AmigaOS4.x, MorphOS
> and AROS. I know that's as good as dead
On 22/01/2015 02:11, Rick Johnson wrote:
On Wednesday, January 21, 2015 at 10:34:40 AM UTC-6, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled
"What Killed Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby". (No cheering,
that sort of attitude is one of the things that killed
Smalltalk.) Al
On 1/21/2015 7:16 PM, Mario Figueiredo wrote:
In article <873873ae91@jester.gateway.sonic.net>,
no.email@nospam.invalid says...
Steven D'Aprano writes:
In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled "What Killed
Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby"... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX3iRjK
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 10:55:27AM +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> Where's REXX today?
Still (somehow) alive in neo-Amiga platforms like AmigaOS4.x, MorphOS and AROS.
I know that's as good as dead but there are still people writing AREXX glue
code.
--
vag·a·bond adjective \ˈva-gə-ˌbänd\
a :
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Steven D'Aprano
wrote:
> What we need is more programmers with a passion for their job, and if that
> means learning to write games, then so be it. One of the problems with "9 to
> 5 code monkeys" is that programming is just a job for them. They do the
> absolute m
Mario Figueiredo wrote:
> In article ,
> ros...@gmail.com says...
>>
>> Bad idea. Better to pick a language that makes it easy to get things
>> right, and then work on the fun side with third-party libraries, than
>> to tempt people in with "hey look how easy it is to do X" and then
>> have them
On 2015-01-21 23:10, Grant Edwards wrote:
> I happily ignored PHP until a couple years back when we decided to
> use PHP for the web site on a small embedded Linux system.
[snip]
> I briefly considered trying to switch to Python, but the Python
> footprint is just too big...
Interesting that your
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 1:59 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber
wrote:
> To my mind, what killed REXX is that most operating systems just don't
> support its key feature well: ADDRESS targets!
>
> When the only target turns ADDRESS into the equivalent of os.system()
> (or some variant of popen(
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
>> If someone's unfazed by the "it'll take you years before you can
>> actually write a saleable game" consideration,
>
> Wanting to write games is a completely different topic than wanting to
> sell them. It's just like any other creative outlet
Chris Angelico writes:
> Either you pick up a super-restrictive "hey look, you can build a game
> with just point and click" system, which isn't teaching programming at
> all, or you end up getting bogged down in the massive details of what
> it takes to write code.
Code Hero ran into various obs
On Wednesday, January 21, 2015 at 10:34:40 AM UTC-6, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled
> "What Killed Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby". (No cheering,
> that sort of attitude is one of the things that killed
> Smalltalk.) Although Martin discusses Ruby, the le
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 12:38 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Mario Figueiredo writes:
>> "I want to become a programmer so I can make games" is, on the vast
>> majority of cases, the quote of someone who will never become a
>> programmer. Why should teachers reward that kind of thought?
>
> I don't see
On 01/21/2015 05:36 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 11:09 AM, Mario Figueiredo wrote:
>> "I want to become a programmer so I can make games" is, on the vast
>> majority of cases, the quote of someone who will never become a
>> programmer. Why should teachers reward that kind of
Mario Figueiredo writes:
> "I want to become a programmer so I can make games" is, on the vast
> majority of cases, the quote of someone who will never become a
> programmer. Why should teachers reward that kind of thought?
I don't see what the problem is. Kids are interested in games and th
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 11:09 AM, Mario Figueiredo wrote:
> "I want to become a programmer so I can make games" is, on the vast
> majority of cases, the quote of someone who will never become a
> programmer. Why should teachers reward that kind of thought?
How about "I want to become a programmer
On Wednesday, January 21, 2015 at 4:10:08 PM UTC-8, Mario Figueiredo wrote:
> In article ,
> ros...@gmail.com says...
> >
> > Bad idea. Better to pick a language that makes it easy to get things
> > right, and then work on the fun side with third-party libraries, than
> > to tempt people in with
Grant Edwards :
> [At the time, a couple of us could stumble around with HTML enough to
> generate web pages that looked fresh out of 1995, but that was about
> it. The web pages in our older devices looked rather "retro" and had
> pretty limited functionality.]
I miss that plain old look of web
On Wednesday, January 21, 2015 at 11:18:54 AM UTC-8, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2015-01-21, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled "What Killed
> > Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby".
>
> But does he answer the more important question "and can we use it to
> kill
In article <873873ae91@jester.gateway.sonic.net>,
no.email@nospam.invalid says...
>
> Steven D'Aprano writes:
> > In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled "What Killed
> > Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby"... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX3iRjKj7C0
>
> That's an hour-long video;
In article ,
ros...@gmail.com says...
>
> Bad idea. Better to pick a language that makes it easy to get things
> right, and then work on the fun side with third-party libraries, than
> to tempt people in with "hey look how easy it is to do X" and then
> have them stuck with an inferior or flawed
On 01/21/2015 04:37 PM, Tim Daneliuk wrote:
> On 01/21/2015 10:34 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled "What Killed
>> Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby". (No cheering, that sort of attitude is one of
>> the things that killed Smalltalk.) Although Martin disc
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 10:46 AM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Meanwhile, there's this: http://prog21.dadgum.com/203.html
> "Retiring Python as a Teaching Language"
>
> tl;dr: he's switched to recommending Javascript as a first language
> instead of Python, since JS makes it easier to write graphics and g
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Tim Daneliuk wrote:
> I find these kinds of discussions sort of silly. Once there is a critical
> mass of installed base, no language EVER dies.
Not sure about that. Back in the 1990s, I wrote most of my code in
REXX, either command-line or using a GUI toolkit l
Steven D'Aprano writes:
> In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled "What Killed
> Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby"... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX3iRjKj7C0
That's an hour-long video; could someone who's watched it give a brief
summary?
Meanwhile, there's this: http://prog21.dadgum
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 10:19 AM, Anthony Papillion
wrote:
> To be fair, PHP has come a long way in the last few years and, I hear,
> there's movements within the community to make it better. Namespaces
> were a bit deal as were a few other things. Personally, while I am
> LOVING Python, I'd be sa
On 01/21/2015 10:34 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled "What Killed
> Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby". (No cheering, that sort of attitude is one of
> the things that killed Smalltalk.) Although Martin discusses Ruby, the
> lessons could also apply to Pyt
On 01/21/2015 04:35 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 6:18 AM, Grant Edwards
> wrote:
>> On 2015-01-21, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>> In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled "What Killed
>>> Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby".
>>
>> But does he answer the more important que
On 2015-01-21, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 6:18 AM, Grant Edwards
> wrote:
>> On 2015-01-21, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>> In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled "What Killed
>>> Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby".
>>
>> But does he answer the more important question "a
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 6:18 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2015-01-21, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled "What Killed
>> Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby".
>
> But does he answer the more important question "and can we use it to
> kill PHP?".
PHP won't die
On 2015-01-21, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled "What Killed
> Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby".
But does he answer the more important question "and can we use it to
kill PHP?".
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! What UNIVERSE is
On 2015-01-22 03:34, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled "What Killed
> Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby".
Holy pacing, Batman. Watching it at 2x leaves me wondering how much
of the stage was worn off during the presentation.
> And now it's all but dead. Why
Hi Steven, you wrote:
> In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled "What Killed
> Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby".
I've yet to watch the video, I'll do that later tonight, but I also remember
what DHH said about Smalltalk in his FLOSS interview about Rails, with Randal
Schwartz, in July
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