Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial Re-Licensing

Hi Offray Ad hominem comments never help. But we all make mistakes, we are not experts in Argumentation Theory, but I think we are learning from every discussion. Licensing has black void holes. I would prefer to read "GPL could result in lower feedback for your projects, because community size i

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial Re-Licensing

> > *From:* Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-boun...@lists.pharo.org] *On > Behalf Of *Dimitris Chloupis > *Sent:* 08 September 2016 13:18 > *To:* Any question about pharo is welcome > *Subject:* Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial Re-Licensing > > > > well he did apologize > > > >

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial Re-Licensing

Dory, can your mail be put on the Pharo web page, the contributions part? It seems that with a bit of polishing it would fit in well there, and this way future discussions can point to that page. -- Does this mail seem too brief? Sorry for that, I don’t mean to be rude! Please see http://email

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial Re-Licensing

. Peter Kenny From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-boun...@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of Dimitris Chloupis Sent: 08 September 2016 13:18 To: Any question about pharo is welcome Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial Re-Licensing well he did apologize

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial Re-Licensing

Please let's move on. My motivation was trying to see the logic behind licenses in Pharo (not on popularity of GPL vs MIT), raised by a valid concern on free riding, enclosure of the commons and reciprocity, which is a hot topic with a lot of debate in free culture/knowledge communities. I lear

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial Re-Licensing

well he did apologize And these things do happen in all communities, I cannot begin to describe the poison I have received in the #common-lisp irc channel. One time also in their mailing list , some old member got annoyed for small reason with a begineer and he gave him code to delete his hard dri

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial Re-Licensing

Hi Tudor, I recognize the impedance with mail as an expression medium and most of the time it was like you said, except when Stef addressed to me with "It is amazing how you like talking" (is this some kind of invitation to "just shut up!"? Is that a "remainder" I have not written enough code

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial Re-Licensing

Hi Offray, I am sorry you feel down. The wording of Stef did appear strong. However, please keep in mind that email is a terrible medium for expressing and transmitting feelings. I would kindly ask you to reconsider the emails and focus on the content and you will see that the wording was not

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial Re-Licensing

Nice to know something good came out after taking all the heat. In my case I learn about licensing with the reasons behind and not "just take it!"... My sources of information, the main spec.st site, made my mistake about dual license a valid misinterpretation and even the idea that there are

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial Re-Licensing

You can be proud of you. I'm proud of you and I can tell you that I really understand you. I can tell you that once I was tempted to change the license of my new books because bad people could just take everything. (yes this is silly when you read but I thought about it and we even discussed it

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial Re-Licensing

Hi Hernan, Thanks for your balanced response. Licensing discussion can be boring but also crucial, hence the sometimes religious views on it. Like a lot of things, from a distance it seems easy - but the devil is in the details. Consider anyway that "Territorial" may otherwise have been a singl

[Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial Re-Licensing

I consider GNU AGPL v3 a fair license choice which protects somehow authors. After some talks with friends today, I began to consider it useless for a niche community like Smalltalk *and* solo projects. I then read all your mails, many posts in other communities, and finally asked for advices. Conc

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

Stef latching. Known thing. Get over it. Just happens. Grow a thicker skin. And s///g Phil On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 9:44 PM, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > Personally I dont mind you being rude to me, I am a lawyer , by profession > I am thick skinned. Busy ? being there done that. And we all snap f

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

Hi, On 07/09/16 14:37, Esteban Lorenzano wrote: ps: and please forgive Stef for being harsh on this… the Spec affaire was painful for us, we do not like to put lawyers and that kind of thing in play… Fortunately there is people in community, like you, that do care about Pharo, is busy and

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

Personally I dont mind you being rude to me, I am a lawyer , by profession I am thick skinned. Busy ? being there done that. And we all snap from time to time and I agree doing is usually more than important that talking , but , there is always a BUT. In any case I dont want to drag the issue its

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

Yes, MIT is a key reason Pharo makes sense to use for me. I can embed it in what I want, no issues. Phil On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 7:45 PM, stepharo wrote: > About my tone may I ask a question? Yes sometimes I feel irritated. I'm > human and I feel irritated. > > May be you know the trick that so

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

About my tone may I ask a question? Yes sometimes I feel irritated. I'm human and I feel irritated. May be you know the trick that some smart manager use to control the length of meetings... I experienced in our team in the past meetings with 18 people and one guy was always talking a lot mo

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

Yes Peter. I may sound rude but I spent hours, mails in the past for example just to have a booth in a conference to promote squeak and this just because of licensing problems. So everybody can do whatever it wants but there is a cost and effect associated with it. Now the argument of oh

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

+1 but as everything we do, it has some impact :) Hi, Please let me stress this: you can put the license of your choice to your code. Is your right and we ensured it continues being your right by choosing MIT license for Pharo. That means that all frameworks, apps, etc. that runs on Pharo h

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

Ironically enough "this is our way , take it or leave it" would not work for Pharo because its smalltalk and basically smalltalk by architecture allow you to deeply modify the system from the get go. This make Pharo technically impossible to control from a dictator and committee point of view like

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

Hi, Please let me stress this: you can put the license of your choice to your code. Is your right and we ensured it continues being your right by choosing MIT license for Pharo. That means that all frameworks, apps, etc. that runs on Pharo has to be MIT? No! YOU CAN DECIDE. But then, if it

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

Le 7/9/16 à 13:58, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas a écrit : Hi, On 07/09/16 13:39, stepharo wrote: We should not have "The Pharo Way" (TM) or "No way!"... suddenly Markus talk about feedback loops comes to mind, particularly the slide on page 53, regarding "An open source smalltalk ignorin

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

Stef > We should not have "The Pharo Way" (TM) or "No way!"... suddenly > Markus talk about feedback loops comes to mind, particularly the slide > on page 53, regarding "An open source smalltalk ignoring all community > contributions"[2]. This is far for being t

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

Hi, On 07/09/16 13:39, stepharo wrote: We should not have "The Pharo Way" (TM) or "No way!"... suddenly Markus talk about feedback loops comes to mind, particularly the slide on page 53, regarding "An open source smalltalk ignoring all community contributions"[2]. This is far for being the

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

Le 7/9/16 à 11:03, Dimitris Chloupis a écrit : GPL is a license that courts have already recognized in many cases. Not that they have much of a choice A license is basically a contract and contracts are legally binding as long as acceptance can be proved for both sides. As a lawyer I would

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

Le 7/9/16 à 10:49, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas a écrit : Hi Doru, As a newcomer to the community, that situation was not clear for me from the blog post I linked, and I was referred there following the "News" tab on the spec.st site, in my first approach to learning it. I think that a be

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

Hi, Nice to see more diversity on license choice and projects in this community. We have the permissive MIT license by default in almost all Pharo and related project, but seeing GPL and AGPL in projects like Spec and now Territorial increase the sense of choice and engagement. No sorry

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

Hi, We do not accept GPL for Pharo because is viral: it enforces GPL to “derivative work”, and in OO, where you basically refine classes, is hard to see when your work is a separated thing and when is “a derivate” (one could say that in smalltalk, everything you do is a derivate… a nightmare th

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

GPL is a license that courts have already recognized in many cases. Not that they have much of a choice A license is basically a contract and contracts are legally binding as long as acceptance can be proved for both sides. As a lawyer I would not advise any client to try to challenge GPL on two

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

Hi Doru, As a newcomer to the community, that situation was not clear for me from the blog post I linked, and I was referred there following the "News" tab on the spec.st site, in my first approach to learning it. I think that a better explanation on why GPL is not a good fit in the Pharo ec

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

Hi, A note about Spec: What you are seeing in the announcement from August 2014, on the spec.st site is an announcement about a fork of Spec. The Spec from Pharo has always been MIT. Even the spec.st related repository on GitHub is now under MIT. See here: https://github.com/spec-framework/spec

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

Hi, On 07/09/16 09:26, stepharo wrote: Le 7/9/16 à 08:53, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas a écrit : Hi, Nice to see more diversity on license choice and projects in this community. We have the permissive MIT license by default in almost all Pharo and related project, but seeing GPL and AG

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

Le 7/9/16 à 08:53, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas a écrit : Hi, Nice to see more diversity on license choice and projects in this community. We have the permissive MIT license by default in almost all Pharo and related project, but seeing GPL and AGPL in projects like Spec and now Territori

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

I'm sorry to say it but you will just end up feeling alone. I wish that someone will ask you to have a non GPL license but I have serious doubts that it will happen. If it does not happen remember that it is not the fault of the communaute. Now if you are looking for extra paid jobs to do let

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

Hi, Nice to see more diversity on license choice and projects in this community. We have the permissive MIT license by default in almost all Pharo and related project, but seeing GPL and AGPL in projects like Spec and now Territorial increase the sense of choice and engagement. In my case as

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

Exactly! Now try this: - While inspecting, go the Meta tab. - Select a method, and start writing the method that extends the inspector, like the method I gave you. - Save and the inspector is updated. This experience is still clumsy, but the idea here is that you can extend the inspector during

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

In Tiki, there has been such discussions as well. https://tiki.org/License But yeah, MIT license is the best thing :-) Phil On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 12:25 AM, Hernán Morales Durand < hernan.mora...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I thought for a while about the license. > > Fixing the ASP loophole mean

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

I thought for a while about the license. Fixing the ASP loophole means trying to escape from companies using a trick to avoid returning changes to the code back to the community[1]. I agree with such position. GNU AGPL is free, copyleft, approved by OSI, FSF, and used by successful projects : Mong

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

Cool, now I see it. I added a package called GT-TerritorialExtensions where I will experiment with different extensions. Thank you. Hernán 2016-09-06 10:24 GMT-03:00 Tudor Girba : > Hi Hernan, > > I read quickly through the doc. Nice work! I noticed that you used the > GTInspector (even with mu

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

Hi Hernán, I believe Stef was asking about the choice of picking a viral license vs the permissive MIT one that we use in code that gets into Pharo (and several other larger related projects). Cheers, Doru > On Sep 6, 2016, at 10:28 PM, Hernán Morales Durand > wrote: > > Hi Stef, > > I us

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

Hi Stef, I used the License Differentiator tool at http://oss-watch.ac.uk/apps/licdiff/ I like it because it fixes the 'ASP (application service provider) loophole' or 'privacy loophole' problem (See Choice Six in the tool) Hernán 2016-09-06 16:47 GMT-03:00 stepharo : > Hi hernan > > why do y

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

Hi hernan why do you picked AGPL? We try to protect our community against license hell. Stef Le 6/9/16 à 11:40, Hernán Morales Durand a écrit : Hi Stephan, 2016-09-06 2:52 GMT-03:00 Stephan Eggermont >: On 06/09/16 06:24, Hernán Morales Durand wrote:

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

Hi Hernan, I read quickly through the doc. Nice work! I noticed that you used the GTInspector (even with multiple panes at a time). That was a nice surprise :). On this occasion I noticed that you could probably extend the inspector with a couple of dedicated views. For example, on page 35, the

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

2016-09-06 2:53 GMT-03:00 Serge Stinckwich : > On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 6:24 AM, Hernán Morales Durand > wrote: > > > > I am happy to announce the release of Territorial, a new Smalltalk > library > > for Geographical Information Retrieval in geopolitical objects. > > Great ! At the moment, I don't

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

Hi Stephan, 2016-09-06 2:52 GMT-03:00 Stephan Eggermont : > On 06/09/16 06:24, Hernán Morales Durand wrote: > >> >> I am happy to announce the release of Territorial, a new Smalltalk >> library for Geographical Information Retrieval in geopolitical objects. >> > > Nice. Please tell us about your

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

On 9/6/16, Stephan Eggermont wrote: > On 06/09/16 06:24, Hernán Morales Durand wrote: >> >> I am happy to announce the release of Territorial, a new Smalltalk >> library for Geographical Information Retrieval in geopolitical objects. > > Nice. Please tell us about your license choice - https://gi

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 6:24 AM, Hernán Morales Durand wrote: > > I am happy to announce the release of Territorial, a new Smalltalk library > for Geographical Information Retrieval in geopolitical objects. Great ! At the moment, I don't have immediate needs of this but this might change in the fu

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

On 06/09/16 06:24, Hernán Morales Durand wrote: I am happy to announce the release of Territorial, a new Smalltalk library for Geographical Information Retrieval in geopolitical objects. Nice. Please tell us about your license choice Stephan

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

Wow ! > On 06 Sep 2016, at 06:24, Hernán Morales Durand > wrote: > > > I am happy to announce the release of Territorial, a new Smalltalk library > for Geographical Information Retrieval in geopolitical objects. > > Blog post with details: > http://80738163270632.blogspot.com/2016/08/territ

[Pharo-users] [ANN] Territorial

I am happy to announce the release of Territorial, a new Smalltalk library for Geographical Information Retrieval in geopolitical objects. Blog post with details: http://80738163270632.blogspot .com/2016/08/territorial.html User Manual: http://bit.ly/2c4RrCJ If you like it or have comments, diff