Stef latching. Known thing. Get over it. Just happens. Grow a thicker skin.
And s/<offensive>//g Phil On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 9:44 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.al...@gmail.com> wrote: > Personally I dont mind you being rude to me, I am a lawyer , by profession > I am thick skinned. Busy ? being there done that. And we all snap from time > to time and I agree doing is usually more than important that talking , but > , there is always a BUT. > > In any case I dont want to drag the issue its just I care for Pharo maybe > not much as you do since I have not invested as much as you have but I do > think talking is also important it helps people get more confident in being > part of a community , this in term can lead to motivation to being active > contributors. When I joined Pharo community I got a lot of encouragement > from people here for my efforts , it may be talk, but emotionally is very > important to know that people appreciate your work and respect you as a > person. > > A small advise from a person that happens to see what having too many > responsibilities can do to a person, take care yourself because the effects > of overworking are not immediate , it will get much worse down the road > unless you make yourself a priority. > > On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 8:46 PM stepharo <steph...@free.fr> wrote: > >> About my tone may I ask a question? Yes sometimes I feel irritated. I'm >> human and I feel irritated. >> >> May be you know the trick that some smart manager use to control the >> length of meetings... >> >> I experienced in our team in the past meetings with 18 people and one guy >> was always talking a lot more than others. And I was always asking myself: >> does it have conscience that each minute he is taking is in fact 18 min >> because we could all spend 1 min doing something else. >> >> After that I heard about team that have strange clock where the clock is >> multiplying by the amount of participants. >> >> So when I participate to meetings I always think about what is the value >> that I bring to other time. >> >> Now we are all busy, you see some people in our team and outside told me >> that they do not have the time to follow Pharo mailing-lists because there >> are too many emails. And we all lose because the insights of such people >> could be really great. >> >> So some alternatives: >> >> - do not care do not read the pharo mailing-list, I would not feel >> happy with such solution. >> >> - be forced to react when something wrong is said because this is >> important for everybody. And yes sometimes I'm irritated because I feel >> forced to say something.I have the impression that not saying anything is a >> kind of luxury that I do not have. >> >> - have a closed contributors only mailing-list (not good does not >> feel nice). >> >> >> This license point is key and this is why I reacted. And I reacted that >> way because I CARE about our system and I CARE about our communitee. >> >> Out there, there is Java, Lua, Python, Ruby, Swift, Objective-C and many >> more. So we should pay attention to our ecosystem and the license >> >> is an integral part of it. >> >> So sorry to be rude but I'm ***REALLY*** busy. Much more than you can >> imagine. Even more. And I feel responsible. >> >> >> Stef >> >> >> >> Le 7/9/16 à 14:40, Dimitris Chloupis a écrit : >> >> Ironically enough "this is our way , take it or leave it" would not work >> for Pharo because its smalltalk and basically smalltalk by architecture >> allow you to deeply modify the system from the get go. >> >> This make Pharo technically impossible to control from a dictator and >> committee point of view like lets say Python or Linux. CPython is a single >> implementation , but with pharo every pharo app is essentially a new pharo >> implementation. The moment you modify or extend the pharo image you make a >> new pharo implementation. >> >> I don't like the tone Stef is expressing , he is quite rude and >> definitely does not represent the tone of the community which far more open >> to dialogue but he is correct , GPL would never have worked for Pharo. >> Actually I dont think I have seen a language that is fairly popular under a >> GPL license. >> >> There is of course software under GPL which is sucessful commercially, >> Blender is an example, but GPL does not cover 3d assets, music and sound. >> In that case you use another kind of license like creative commons or >> heavily modify GPL to extend beyond code. So it was definitely not GPL that >> made Blender popular, actually it caused a problem with game developers >> because games using the BGE (Blender Game Engine) were at first considered >> data because the code was packaged inside the blend file which had a binary >> format so that meant it was not covered by GPL because it considered the >> whole game code just data (there is a separate executable for loading the >> game code) but then Blender decided to change this also to GPL with >> extending its license and that pretty much killed commercial games made >> with Blender. >> >> So technically you could get away with GPLing Pharo because you could >> argue that Pharo image is merely data that the VM loads and not real source >> code, which is kinda correct but it would be messy and the legal >> interpretation very confusing and uncertain ( leaves a lot of room for >> legal interpretation ) . As a company you cannot risk this , especially >> while you expect to make big profit. >> >> As stef said GPL is like a virus, it spread anywhere it touches. Even if >> all you do is add a tiny bit of GPL code inside the Pharo image would turn >> the entire Pharo implementation including the VM into GPL and because Pharo >> tries to approach as many companies as possible as most other languages do >> , because money helps improve the popularity and the quality of the code, >> MIT is definitely the way to do. >> >> So its more a "have to" than a "must to". >> >> Also double license or not its kinda pointless, the moment something >> becomes MIT you can be rest assured that people will pick MIT over GPL. >> This because you can turn MIT to GPL but you cannot turn GPL to MIT. So >> even if you want your project GPLed , MIT is still more than enough and of >> course most people will pick MIT for commercial apps so they don't need to >> open source their code. >> >> So no, it does not matter that Spec is double licensed , or if it is >> legal that is double licensed , since its active implementation is MIT this >> all you need to know. >> >> So for Pharo and pretty much almost all other programming languages out >> there who aspire to be used by as many people as possible and play an >> active role in the software market MIT like license is a mandatory choice. >> The irony of people not wanting to open source their code but wanting to >> use open source code. Its this type of thinking that justifies the >> existence of GPL. >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 2:59 PM Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas < >> offray.l...@mutabit.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> >>> On 07/09/16 13:39, stepharo wrote: >>> > >>> >> We should not have "The Pharo Way" (TM) or "No way!"... suddenly >>> >> Markus talk about feedback loops comes to mind, particularly the >>> >> slide on page 53, regarding "An open source smalltalk ignoring all >>> >> community contributions"[2]. This is far for being the case in this >>> >> community and we can keep that scenario at safe distance, if we show >>> >> options. So, dual license is an option, git is an option, markdown is >>> >> an option. Pharo as a place with options is one where Pharo can >>> >> fulfill its vision for more people. Let's make these options visible >>> >> and figure out the way the work better for a wider community. >>> > It is amazing how you like talking. >>> > >>> >>> Yes. I like. Is the way to know unwritten history. Not all the people in >>> the community know the details as you do, so talking is the way of going >>> out of misconceptions, like mine about dual license or state positions, >>> like why I don't use Pillar. The "it has been discussed, this is our >>> way, take or leave it" doesn't help in understanding way. So yes, I'm >>> all about encouraging dialog/talk if it helps to understand. >>> >>> Bye, >>> >>> Offray >>> >>> >>
