About my tone may I ask a question? Yes sometimes I feel irritated. I'm
human and I feel irritated.
May be you know the trick that some smart manager use to control the
length of meetings...
I experienced in our team in the past meetings with 18 people and one
guy was always talking a lot more than others. And I was always asking
myself: does it have conscience that each minute he is taking is in fact
18 min because we could all spend 1 min doing something else.
After that I heard about team that have strange clock where the clock is
multiplying by the amount of participants.
So when I participate to meetings I always think about what is the value
that I bring to other time.
Now we are all busy, you see some people in our team and outside told me
that they do not have the time to follow Pharo mailing-lists because
there are too many emails. And we all lose because the insights of such
people could be really great.
So some alternatives:
- do not care do not read the pharo mailing-list, I would not feel
happy with such solution.
- be forced to react when something wrong is said because this is
important for everybody. And yes sometimes I'm irritated because I feel
forced to say something.I have the impression that not saying anything
is a kind of luxury that I do not have.
- have a closed contributors only mailing-list (not good does not
feel nice).
This license point is key and this is why I reacted. And I reacted that
way because I CARE about our system and I CARE about our communitee.
Out there, there is Java, Lua, Python, Ruby, Swift, Objective-C and many
more. So we should pay attention to our ecosystem and the license
is an integral part of it.
So sorry to be rude but I'm ***REALLY*** busy. Much more than you can
imagine. Even more. And I feel responsible.
Stef
Le 7/9/16 à 14:40, Dimitris Chloupis a écrit :
Ironically enough "this is our way , take it or leave it" would not
work for Pharo because its smalltalk and basically smalltalk by
architecture allow you to deeply modify the system from the get go.
This make Pharo technically impossible to control from a dictator and
committee point of view like lets say Python or Linux. CPython is a
single implementation , but with pharo every pharo app is essentially
a new pharo implementation. The moment you modify or extend the pharo
image you make a new pharo implementation.
I don't like the tone Stef is expressing , he is quite rude and
definitely does not represent the tone of the community which far more
open to dialogue but he is correct , GPL would never have worked for
Pharo. Actually I dont think I have seen a language that is fairly
popular under a GPL license.
There is of course software under GPL which is sucessful commercially,
Blender is an example, but GPL does not cover 3d assets, music and
sound. In that case you use another kind of license like creative
commons or heavily modify GPL to extend beyond code. So it was
definitely not GPL that made Blender popular, actually it caused a
problem with game developers because games using the BGE (Blender Game
Engine) were at first considered data because the code was packaged
inside the blend file which had a binary format so that meant it was
not covered by GPL because it considered the whole game code just data
(there is a separate executable for loading the game code) but then
Blender decided to change this also to GPL with extending its license
and that pretty much killed commercial games made with Blender.
So technically you could get away with GPLing Pharo because you could
argue that Pharo image is merely data that the VM loads and not real
source code, which is kinda correct but it would be messy and the
legal interpretation very confusing and uncertain ( leaves a lot of
room for legal interpretation ) . As a company you cannot risk this ,
especially while you expect to make big profit.
As stef said GPL is like a virus, it spread anywhere it touches. Even
if all you do is add a tiny bit of GPL code inside the Pharo image
would turn the entire Pharo implementation including the VM into GPL
and because Pharo tries to approach as many companies as possible as
most other languages do , because money helps improve the popularity
and the quality of the code, MIT is definitely the way to do.
So its more a "have to" than a "must to".
Also double license or not its kinda pointless, the moment something
becomes MIT you can be rest assured that people will pick MIT over
GPL. This because you can turn MIT to GPL but you cannot turn GPL to
MIT. So even if you want your project GPLed , MIT is still more than
enough and of course most people will pick MIT for commercial apps so
they don't need to open source their code.
So no, it does not matter that Spec is double licensed , or if it is
legal that is double licensed , since its active implementation is MIT
this all you need to know.
So for Pharo and pretty much almost all other programming languages
out there who aspire to be used by as many people as possible and play
an active role in the software market MIT like license is a mandatory
choice. The irony of people not wanting to open source their code but
wanting to use open source code. Its this type of thinking that
justifies the existence of GPL.
On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 2:59 PM Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
<offray.l...@mutabit.com <mailto:offray.l...@mutabit.com>> wrote:
Hi,
On 07/09/16 13:39, stepharo wrote:
>
>> We should not have "The Pharo Way" (TM) or "No way!"... suddenly
>> Markus talk about feedback loops comes to mind, particularly the
>> slide on page 53, regarding "An open source smalltalk ignoring all
>> community contributions"[2]. This is far for being the case in this
>> community and we can keep that scenario at safe distance, if we
show
>> options. So, dual license is an option, git is an option,
markdown is
>> an option. Pharo as a place with options is one where Pharo can
>> fulfill its vision for more people. Let's make these options
visible
>> and figure out the way the work better for a wider community.
> It is amazing how you like talking.
>
Yes. I like. Is the way to know unwritten history. Not all the
people in
the community know the details as you do, so talking is the way of
going
out of misconceptions, like mine about dual license or state
positions,
like why I don't use Pillar. The "it has been discussed, this is our
way, take or leave it" doesn't help in understanding way. So yes, I'm
all about encouraging dialog/talk if it helps to understand.
Bye,
Offray
