Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions

It's doable if you never merge upstream patches in, but even then you've got quite a mess to clean up. I did the fork thing for a while and found it was very tricky to clean up, my own from-scratch simulator (litesim.py) was way way more stable but lagged behind massively with features. On Thu, Ap

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions

On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 4:49 PM, Gareth Nelson wrote: > It's a lot of work to maintain, trust me - anyway, it'd be better to > convince the opensim team to allow viewer developers in. Yep - people seem to end up writing their own simulator from scratch instead as a result. I know that I did[1], an

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions

Excellent summary by Rob. I was going to write a follow up but Rob's post was pretty complete. The short of it is that because of the contributor agreements LL owns the copyright on all contributions including their own and can use them pretty much how they see fit, including in commercial code th

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions

On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 8:30 AM, Carlo Wood wrote: > Ok, IANAL as well, but here's what I understood (somewhere in the past): > > LL is a single legal entity, "distributing" sources internally is > not considered to be distribution and using binaries on multiple > PC's within the company is also n

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions

Ok, IANAL as well, but here's what I understood (somewhere in the past): LL is a single legal entity, "distributing" sources internally is not considered to be distribution and using binaries on multiple PC's within the company is also not considered distribution (it doesn't change owner). Theref

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions

Glen Canaday wrote: > anyone who is known to have seen the LL server code. They can't be sure > there's no LL-proprietary licensing stuff going on. See this: > http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Contributions_Policy > > ... all of which I can completely understand. > No, the not reading viewer code

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions?

On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 3:44 AM, Kent Quirk (Q Linden) wrote: > 1) The first line of my comment is that I don't speak for Linden legal. Right. > 2) What I said was that if you want to understand legalese, you should talk > to a lawyer. That's it. Seriously, how many developers can realisticall

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions

I have one for working on Voxel terrain (which will also completely break compatibility with SL). Lol, losing power. On Fri, 2010-04-02 at 10:38 -0500, Argent Stonecutter wrote: > Sounds like an "impure opensim" fork is needed. > > On 2010-04-02, at 08:19, Gareth Nelson wrote: > > > If these pe

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions

On 2010-04-02, at 11:51, Glen Canaday wrote: > I'm actually rather surprised no one's said anything about the > merges of GPL code into viewer-internal. That bugged me more than the > TPV stuff. That's why you have to transfer the copyright to LL when you send them code, because that way they

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions

It can, but only if the fork has enough developers working on it instead of the original - and that's the trickiest part On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 6:12 PM, Argent Stonecutter wrote: > Starting a fork can light a fire under a parochial developer team. It worked > for GCC with EGCS. > > > On 2010-04-0

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions

Starting a fork can light a fire under a parochial developer team. It worked for GCC with EGCS. On 2010-04-02, at 10:49, Gareth Nelson wrote: > It's a lot of work to maintain, trust me - anyway, it'd be better to > convince the opensim team to allow viewer developers in. > > On Fri, Apr 2, 201

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions

I know the reason they won't accept patches from viewer devs, but it's a nonsensical reason. Merely viewing the viewer source code does not mean any code you write later on must be GPLed - something which 3 different attorneys confirmed. This is something fairly basic in copyright law - it covers

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions

They won't accept viewer developers because the viewer is GPL and they want to be absolutely sure that only BSD code gets in. If the viewer code weren't virally licensed (as the GPL is), they'd probably be more than happy to accept viewer-developer patches. Geeked as all get-out, I'd imagine. I

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions

It's a lot of work to maintain, trust me - anyway, it'd be better to convince the opensim team to allow viewer developers in. On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 4:38 PM, Argent Stonecutter wrote: > Sounds like an "impure opensim" fork is needed. > > On 2010-04-02, at 08:19, Gareth Nelson wrote: > >> If these

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions

Sounds like an "impure opensim" fork is needed. On 2010-04-02, at 08:19, Gareth Nelson wrote: > If these people also work on the viewer, they're banned from > contributing patches to opensim > > On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Carlo Wood wrote: >> What is the reason that those fixes aren't incor

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions

Beats me, honestly. I'm not a coder, I'm just a content creator. My guess is the OpenSim project has its own plans and doesn't go looking for code elsewhere, they only take what's given to them. Which makes sense given the number of grids. But I really don't know the reason, I was just pointing

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions?

Dale Mahalko : ... > Can individuals actually talk directly to Linden's TOS lawyers without > paying a fee of some sort? I don't think anyone meant to suggest that people should try to talk directly to LL's lawyers; as you say, that's unlikely to be feasible. The idea, I believe, is that if (say

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions?

I am not a lawyer. I don't know how the whole business model of lawyers and fees work. This whole "talk to a lawyer" boilerplate response raises questions related to lawyer fees, that do not appear to be well known.. Can individuals actually talk directly to Linden's TOS lawyers without paying a

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions

You perhaps misunderstood me - I was referring to submitting patches to opensim. Sadly, unless the current opensim team change their minds, I do not see tight cooperation between viewer developers and opensim developers happening, as for efficiency it would be best for people to be able to contribu

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions

Makes sense if you ask me... why submit patches for SnowGlobe when you already know other Third-Party viewers work with OpenSim...plus I image these guys have enough on their plate as it is getting OpenSim out of alpha. Jonathan Irvin On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 09:21, Gareth Nelson wrote: > That's

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions

That's one possible reason, other possible reasons are simply lack of willingness to submit the patches On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Carlo Wood wrote: > That is an 'if', what is the actual reason? > > On Fri, Apr 02, 2010 at 02:19:31PM +0100, Gareth Nelson wrote: >> If these people also work o

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions

That is an 'if', what is the actual reason? On Fri, Apr 02, 2010 at 02:19:31PM +0100, Gareth Nelson wrote: > If these people also work on the viewer, they're banned from > contributing patches to opensim -- Carlo Wood ___ Policies and (un)subscribe in

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions

If these people also work on the viewer, they're banned from contributing patches to opensim On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Carlo Wood wrote: > What is the reason that those fixes aren't incorporated in "pure" opensim? > > On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 09:57:13PM -0600, Maya Remblai wrote: >> That all

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions

What is the reason that those fixes aren't incorporated in "pure" opensim? On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 09:57:13PM -0600, Maya Remblai wrote: > That all is true of pure OpenSim, but not necessarily true of > OpenSim-compatible grids. ReactionGrid and InWorldz are > OpenSim-compatible, meaning they use

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions?

Of course, the simple way to not be held liable for flaws in TPVs is to say to users "we do not support any viewer not developed by us, and you accept all liability for your use of any unsupported viewers". I don't think anyone is asking LL to accept liability for bugs in third party viewers, or as

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions

You just enjoy making friends all over the map don't you? Mike On Fri, 2010-04-02 at 02:34 +, Carlo Wood wrote: > On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 11:06:59PM +0800, Boy Lane wrote: > > What are you still doing here? > > I would move to opensim immediately, but: > > 1) It crashes non-stop > 2) It can

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions?

Well, a truly incomprehensible contract WOULD be unenforceable, just like an incomprehensible law. The new TOS agreement, however, is not incomprehensible. It's just plain complicated. The Lindens are obviously trying to walk a fine line between allowing 3rd Party Viewers and not being legal

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions

That all is true of pure OpenSim, but not necessarily true of OpenSim-compatible grids. ReactionGrid and InWorldz are OpenSim-compatible, meaning they use the same viewers and started with OpenSim code, but they've fixed many of the problems and are working to fix the others. Personally I favor

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions

On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 11:06:59PM +0800, Boy Lane wrote: > What are you still doing here? I would move to opensim immediately, but: 1) It crashes non-stop 2) It can TOTALLY not deal with packetloss: 2a) Avatar textures are extremely often corrupt. 2b) Attachment won't attach/detach 2c)

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions

Being the one who made the comments I'll go on record to express my disagreement with the views here. I'm not going to elaborate why. I'm sure people would rather concentrate on technial matters rather than legal matters on this list. Anyone that wants to have a legal discussion with me is free

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions?

1) The first line of my comment is that I don't speak for Linden legal. 2) What I said was that if you want to understand legalese, you should talk to a lawyer. That's it. Q On Apr 1, 2010, at 4:54 AM, Gareth Nelson wrote: > An interesting point: > If a member of staff at LL is basical

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions

Okay, I'm going to try this one last time. When users sign into SL for the first time, they are asked to read and agree to the Terms of Service agreement. Included in the ToS is the Community Standards and now the TPV. *ALL OF THESE DOCUMENTS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE READ AND AGREED TO BY THE END USER

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Boy Lane skrev 2010-04-01 17.06: > And now Viewer 2.0 is the new holy grail. I really thought the 1.23 release > was bad. But now 2.0 even goes > against a major part of the resident population, handicapped people; > particular people with epilepsy/

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions

e/VWR-17249 What are you still doing here? Boy > Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 09:42:24 +0100 > From: Morgaine > Subject: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible > conditions? > To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain;

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions?

Maybe you should ponder awhile about what "responsible" actually implies within this context. You seem to think you're not responsible for code you develop or distribute thanks to the GPL. Let us travel back a bit in time to when the US thought that they should control cryptography related software

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions?

Keep in mind, most of this "legalese" that they have is just to cover their own asses. Many MANY companies do stuff like this just in case that if something ever escalates to a point where those words come to play in court, they have all their P's and Q's. Linden Labs is a company, folks...a comp

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions?

On 1/04/2010 7:42 PM, Morgaine wrote: On 21st March, Q Linden explained to us that legalese is not a language amenable to "common sense" interpretation, and more specifically, that programmers like ourselves should

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions?

An interesting point: If a member of staff at LL is basically saying "none of you can comprehend this policy", then that surely means none of us can actually consent to agree to it. Q - you may have just provided some "fuel" for use in any future court case On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Morgain

Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions?

How many times must it be said? The problem isn't that there's people interpreting it. The problem is that there's NO ROOM FOR INTERPRETATION. Section 7a: > If you are a Developer, you are responsible for all features, functionality, code, and content of Third-Party Viewers that you develop or

[opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions?

On 21st March, Q Linden explained to usthat legalese is not a language amenable to "common sense" interpretation, and more specifically, that programmers like ourselves should not expect to understand this Linden TPV poli