On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 3:44 AM, Kent Quirk (Q Linden) <q...@lindenlab.com> wrote: > 1) The first line of my comment is that I don't speak for Linden legal.
Right. > 2) What I said was that if you want to understand legalese, you should talk > to a lawyer. That's it. Seriously, how many developers can realistically to do that? That said, I find the language TPVP itself is pretty clear. The only confusing part is how you can make it apply to *developers* somehow. Totally unprecedented; the GPL applies to the source, and the TOS apply to anyone who connects to SL -- what on earth has LL legal given birth to here? FUD own-goal. > > Q Cheers, > > > On Apr 1, 2010, at 4:54 AM, Gareth Nelson wrote: > >> An interesting point: >> If a member of staff at LL is basically saying "none of you can >> comprehend this policy", then that surely means none of us can >> actually consent to agree to it. >> >> Q - you may have just provided some "fuel" for use in any future court case >> >> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Morgaine <morgaine.din...@googlemail.com> >> wrote: >>> On 21st March, Q Linden explained to us that legalese is not a language >>> amenable to "common sense" interpretation, and more specifically, that >>> programmers like ourselves should not expect to understand this Linden TPV >>> policy document using our normal logic and our normal dictionary. I'll >>> repeat his words here for clarity: >>> >>> >>> Kent Quirk (Q Linden) q at lindenlab.com >>> Sun Mar 21 10:24:13 PDT 2010 >>> >>> I'm emphatically not a lawyer and I don't speak for our legal team. But: >>> >>> Legalese is a specialized language. It's not strictly English, and it's not >>> always amenable to "common sense" interpretation. Think of lawyers as people >>> who write code in an underspecified language for a buggy compiler, and you >>> begin to understand why legalese is the way it is. There's a lot of law that >>> isn't stated, but is actually implied by the context of the existing settled >>> law. What that means is that if you're not a lawyer, you probably shouldn't >>> be attempting to interpret legal documents -- especially not for other >>> people. Similarly, if you're not a programmer, attempting to interpret >>> program source code is a risky business. Programmers are especially >>> susceptible to trying to interpret legal documents using a normal dictionary >>> because they're logical thinkers. That doesn't always work. If you have >>> legal questions about the implication of documents, you should ask a lawyer, >>> not a mailing list. >>> >>> Similarly, any comment by one of Linden's lawyers in this forum or any other >>> could possibly be treated as legally binding. That also goes for Linden >>> employees, especially those with any seniority. So you're unlikely to get >>> further remarks or "clarifications", except general statements that don't >>> address specific questions. The policy was revised based on comments on this >>> list and elsewhere. That's probably a pretty good indication that Linden >>> Lab's lawyers now think it's clear enough to state its intent and to stand >>> up in court if they need it to. >>> >>> Q >>> >>> >>> I've been thinking about this extraordinary post and its relationship to our >>> ongoing saga about the TPV, and I fail to see how any rational person could >>> agree to something unknown, except under duress. Is it even legal to be >>> required to agree to the incomprehensible? Does anyone know how the law >>> works in this area? >>> >>> The GPL license was written by FSF lawyers specifically to be understood by >>> programmers, so it's no surprise that the large majority of people here >>> understand it. Given that Lindens claim that they are issuing a valid GPL >>> license, perhaps one might accept that at face value, and assume that GPLv2 >>> clauses 6, 7, 11 and 12 remain intact and valid. Therefore there are no >>> "further restrictions" imposed on SL TPV developers (clause 6), and the "NO >>> WARRANTY" clause (11-12) continues to protect developers from downstream >>> liability, and no "conditions are imposed on you that contradict the >>> conditions of this License" thus making the license valid (clause 7). >>> >>> Given the forgoing, the officially incomprehensible TPV document then no >>> longer matters to SL TPV developers, because their rights and freedoms and >>> lack of liability are determined entirely by the GPL. (It could be no other >>> way anyway, since we are told that we cannot understand the TPV.) >>> >>> That leaves only the matter of users of TPVs behaving responsibly when they >>> use TPV clients in SL, with which I'm sure every person on this list is >>> happy to agree. (Note that developers become users when they connect to SL, >>> and are bound by the same requirements as users.) When users do something >>> bad with a TPV client, or indeed with a Linden client, then naturally they >>> are personally responsible for their actions. >>> >>> In the absence of a TPV document that we can comprehend, perhaps this is the >>> best that TPV developers can do, since agreeing to incomprehensible >>> conditions is not something that any sensible person should consider. >>> >>> >>> Morgaine. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>> privileges >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> “Lanie, I’m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for >> everyone. That’s worth going to jail for. That’s worth anything.” - >> Printcrime by Cory Doctrow >> >> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. >> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
