Jay Ashworth wrote:
- Original Message -
From: "Chris Adams"
Once upon a time, Jay Ashworth said:
"Try to do everything *inside PID 1*" is the real problem.
And that is not what systemd is doing; make sure you know what you are
complaining about. systemd-the-project != systemd-the-pi
On 10/25/2014 04:55 PM, Matthew Petach wrote:
Completely agree on this point--but I fail to see why it has to be one
or the other? Why can't systemd have a --text flag to tell it to
output in ascii text mode for those of us who prefer it that way?
It still logs to syslog, and syslog can still l
- Original Message -
> From: "Chris Adams"
> Once upon a time, Jay Ashworth said:
> > "Try to do everything *inside PID 1*" is the real problem.
>
> And that is not what systemd is doing; make sure you know what you are
> complaining about. systemd-the-project != systemd-the-pid-1. PID 1
On Sat, 25 Oct 2014 17:56:52 -0500, Jimmy Hess said:
> The next thing you know, SystemD will add package management, ISO
> building, and eliminate the need for Debian, Ubuntu, SuSE, Redhat,
> Etc to even exist.
That's already on Lennart's to-do list, you know.
pgpsrz4mwPqsz.pgp
Description:
On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 12:22 PM, Stephen Satchell wrote:
> The whole rc script thing strikes me as an interim solution that
> required a minimum of code changes (graduate student project?) that went
> viral. Bad as it was, it worked. Duct tape and bailing wire
[snip]
> Systemd is not a re-f
On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 02:41:55PM -0700, Peter Baldridge wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 1:55 PM, Matthew Petach wrote:
> > Why can't systemd have a --text flag to
> > tell it to output in ascii text mode for those
> > of us who prefer it that way?
^
This | is not what that | does
On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 01:55:43PM -0700, Matthew Petach wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 10:22 AM, Stephen Satchell
> wrote:
> > Oh, and I hate binary logs. Period. If you can't stand plain text,
> > then try XML. At least humans have a *chance* to read it without having
> > to make fancy read
On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 1:55 PM, Matthew Petach wrote:
> Why can't systemd have a --text flag to
> tell it to output in ascii text mode for those
> of us who prefer it that way?
It does.
--no-pager
--
Pete
On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 10:22 AM, Stephen Satchell
wrote:
> ...
> Oh, and I hate binary logs. Period. If you can't stand plain text,
> then try XML. At least humans have a *chance* to read it without having
> to make fancy reader tools.
>
>
Completely agree on this point--but I fail
to see why
On 10/25/2014 08:12 AM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote:
> If all of the scripts are cut'n'paste copes of each other, wouldn't it
> be better to figure out a way to stop cutting and pasting? I can't
> count the number of times I've run into problems with my code because
> of that, never mind how many times it
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 10:10 AM, Jim Mercer wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 12:41:39AM -0400, Barry Shein wrote:
>> All those init.d scripts do about 95% the same thing, all hacked
>> together in shell. Most of them are probably just slightly edited
>> versions of some few paleo-scripts.
>
> in
As lurker I just wanted to say this has been highly educational. (I'm new)
-Original Message-
From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of *
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 12:57 PM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Linux: concerns over systemd adoption and Deb
Once upon a time, Jay Ashworth said:
> "Try to do everything *inside PID 1*" is the real problem.
And that is not what systemd is doing; make sure you know what you are
complaining about. systemd-the-project != systemd-the-pid-1. PID 1 is
responsible for managing services/daemons, and AFAIK tha
- Original Message -
> On 22-10-2014 17:30, Jeffrey Ollie wrote:
> > Hardly. The discussion so far has been weighted very heavily on the
> > side of Dana Carvey's "Grumpy Old Man"-style whining. "That's the way
> > it was and we liked it!". The people that like systemd (like myself)
> > hav
Original Message -
> From: "Jeffrey Ollie"
> > If that doesn't suffice, then I suspect it will only require waiting
> > a little while until a demonstration of why monolithic integration
> > is a bad idea will be provided by someone who is at this moment
> > studying the large-and-growin
- Original Message -
> From: "Lamar Owen"
> Speaking from my own experience, the actually relevant and
> package-specific guts of the typical initscript could be easily
> replaced by a simple text configuration that simply gives:
>
> 1.) What to start
> 2.) When to start it (traditional
- Original Message -
> From: "Barry Shein"
> On October 21, 2014 at 13:44 brun...@nic-naa.net (Eric
> Brunner-Williams) wrote:
> > > systemd is insanity.
> >
> > see also smit.
>
> SMIT! Rhymes with
For the record, smit is crazy cause AIX isn't really Unix; it's VM with a
thin POSI
- Original Message -
> From: "Joe Loiacono"
> > The arguments against systemd that I've seen so far:
> >
> > 1) It's different so it's bad.
> > 2) There's a lot of code, there must be some really bad security
> > problems just waiting to happen, so it's bad.
> > 3) It doesn't do things th
> All those init.d scripts do about 95% the same thing, all hacked
> together in shell. Most of them are probably just slightly edited
> versions of some few paleo-scripts.
>
> Set the location of the pid file, set the path of the executable, set
> the command line flags/options, maybe change some
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 12:41:39AM -0400, Barry Shein wrote:
> All those init.d scripts do about 95% the same thing, all hacked
> together in shell. Most of them are probably just slightly edited
> versions of some few paleo-scripts.
in FreeBSD, the bulk of the rc.d scripts are basically the same
On 10/24/2014 03:35 AM, Tei wrote:
I pled the Linux people to stay inside the unix philosophy to use text files.
You do realize that the systemd config files are still text, right? As
to the binary journal, well, by default RHEL 7 (and rebuilds) do at
least mirror the journal output to syslog
I pled the Linux people to stay inside the unix philosophy to use text files.
Low newbies like me learn from reading config files, and fix thing by
reading log files, tryiing to make some sense of the error messages
there, and using the most suspicious line as the handle to google for
a solution (
All those init.d scripts do about 95% the same thing, all hacked
together in shell. Most of them are probably just slightly edited
versions of some few paleo-scripts.
Set the location of the pid file, set the path of the executable, set
the command line flags/options, maybe change some flags/opti
On 10/23/14 4:01 PM, Simon Lyall wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014, Stephen Satchell wrote:
On 10/22/2014 08:20 PM, Simon Lyall wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014, Miles Fidelman wrote:
And maybe, you should check out some of the upstream bug reports re.
systemd interactions with NTP.
If you think the curr
On 10/23/2014 02:15, Matt Palmer wrote:
This is the core problem with systemd, in my mind -- and what has gotten
Linus, amongst other people, so thoroughly cheesed off with the systemd
devs. They don't play well with other children. They don't appear
particularly interested in reusing any exis
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014, Stephen Satchell wrote:
On 10/22/2014 08:20 PM, Simon Lyall wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014, Miles Fidelman wrote:
And maybe, you should check out some of the upstream bug reports re.
systemd interactions with NTP.
If you think the current situation is all good then maybe you
Randy wrote:
> I've enjoyed kernel hot patches (ksplice) until now.
>
> So my primary concern is that updates to systemd appears to require a full
> reboot:
>
> http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=300166
>
> Is systemd really like a 2nd 'kernel' -- demanding mass reboots every time
a
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 04:17:14PM -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> Matt Palmer wrote:
> >On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 12:12:13PM -0400, Jim Popovitch wrote:
> >>On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Mike. wrote:
> >>>GNU/Linux is morphing into GNU/systemd
> >>Let's start calling it Systemd/Linux... tha
Matt Palmer wrote:
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 12:12:13PM -0400, Jim Popovitch wrote:
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Mike. wrote:
GNU/Linux is morphing into GNU/systemd
Let's start calling it Systemd/Linux... that will get RMS on their
case real fast. :-)
I don't think they've done anyth
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 10:56:40AM -0400, Randy wrote:
> I've enjoyed kernel hot patches (ksplice) until now.
>
> So my primary concern is that updates to systemd appears to require
> a full reboot:
>
> http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=300166
>
> Is systemd really like a 2nd 'kerne
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 12:12:13PM -0400, Jim Popovitch wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Mike. wrote:
> > GNU/Linux is morphing into GNU/systemd
>
> Let's start calling it Systemd/Linux... that will get RMS on their
> case real fast. :-)
I don't think they've done anything to dese
On 10/23/2014 10:43 AM, Lamar Owen wrote:
> Wouldn't it be more 'do one thing well' if you had a 'super' inetd
> setup that can start services in a better way than with individually
> packaged (by different packagers in most cases) shell scripts that are
> going to run as root?
inetd versus xine
On 10/23/2014 02:22 PM, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote:
On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 13:43:03 -0400, Lamar Owen said:
Now, I've read the arguments, and I am squarely in the 'do one thing and
do it well' camp. But, let's turn that on its head, shall we? Why oh
why do we want every single package to imple
On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 13:43:03 -0400, Lamar Owen said:
> Now, I've read the arguments, and I am squarely in the 'do one thing and
> do it well' camp. But, let's turn that on its head, shall we? Why oh
> why do we want every single package to implement its own initscript and
> possibly do it poorly?
This is a good point, but it is perfectly possible to have a sysvinit
system not written in shell scripts. I had rewritten most of the init
system in python at one point for example. And its only been made easier
to do over time now that #! Interpertation was moved kernelside. A system
like this
On 10/22/2014 03:51 PM, Barry Shein wrote:
I wish I had a nickel for every time I started to implement something
in bash/sh, used it a while, and quickly realized I needed something
like perl and had to rewrite the whole thing.
Barry, you've been around a long time, and these words are pearls o
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Mike. wrote:
>
>
> On 10/23/2014 at 10:56 AM Randy wrote:
>
> |I've enjoyed kernel hot patches (ksplice) until now.
> |
> |So my primary concern is that updates to systemd appears to require
> a
> |full reboot:
> |
> |http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t
On 10/23/2014 at 10:56 AM Randy wrote:
|I've enjoyed kernel hot patches (ksplice) until now.
|
|So my primary concern is that updates to systemd appears to require
a
|full reboot:
|
|http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=300166
|
|Is systemd really like a 2nd 'kernel' -- demanding mass
Randy wrote:
I've enjoyed kernel hot patches (ksplice) until now.
So my primary concern is that updates to systemd appears to require a
full reboot:
http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=300166
Is systemd really like a 2nd 'kernel' -- demanding mass reboots every
time a security is
On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 11:25:36 -0400, Jim Popovitch said:
> On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 12:57 PM, * wrote:
> > Poettering's own blog for example even misleads on how systemd
> > and sysvinit work http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/why.html
>
> Oh look... he's related to PulseAudio and Avahi .
And he
Jamie Lawrence wrote:
Some may see me as a "grumpy old man" for that. I see it as a technical
conservatism for my production environments borne of having been burned by
shiny-cool-new before one too many times, and a tired dislike of being
paged out of bed over some chrome plated new hotness t
On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 12:57 PM, * wrote:
> Poettering's own blog for example even misleads on how systemd
> and sysvinit work http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/why.html
Oh look... he's related to PulseAudio and Avahi .
If you've ever tried above average audio on Linux, then you know all
abo
I've enjoyed kernel hot patches (ksplice) until now.
So my primary concern is that updates to systemd appears to require a
full reboot:
http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=300166
Is systemd really like a 2nd 'kernel' -- demanding mass reboots every
time a security issue is discove
On 10/22/14, 9:01 AM, "Jeffrey Ollie" wrote:
>Bull. If you've been around the FOSS community even for a short
>while, you'd know that systemd has become a religious topic akin to
On 10/22/14, 10:41 AM, "Jeffrey Ollie" wrote:
>sums up my thoughts on the "unix philosophy". It's not the
>be-al
On 10/21/2014 05:20 PM, Jimmy Hess wrote:
> The all-in-one approach of systemd might have a place on some
> specialized desktop distros, but outside that niche its' IMO a
> terrible idea.
>
> The proper fix is probably a go back to Upstart or SysVInit and
> rewrite systemd, so all the pieces are
"NANOG" wrote on 10/22/2014 10:47:46 PM:
> The arguments against systemd that I've seen so far:
>
> 1) It's different so it's bad.
> 2) There's a lot of code, there must be some really bad security
> problems just waiting to happen, so it's bad.
> 3) It doesn't do things the way we've always don
On 2014-10-23 9:15, Matt Palmer wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 10:05:30PM -0500, Jeffrey Ollie wrote:
>> To achieve the level of integration that timedated has with the rest
>> of systemd would require more than just putting code into timedatectl
>> to write out /etc/ntpd.conf and starting a serv
On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 10:05:30PM -0500, Jeffrey Ollie wrote:
> To achieve the level of integration that timedated has with the rest
> of systemd would require more than just putting code into timedatectl
> to write out /etc/ntpd.conf and starting a service. timedated talks
> to networkd (that
>
Systemd Blackhole is a very apt term as I am discovering.
I was once a linuxfromscratch "superuser" 10 years back, in a sense that
if anyone asked me the location of a lib.so and how to resolve a version
mismatch, I could fix it in a matter of minutes even if woken up at 4am in
the morning. Likew
On 10/22/2014 08:20 PM, Simon Lyall wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Oct 2014, Miles Fidelman wrote:
>> And maybe, you should check out some of the upstream bug reports re.
>> systemd interactions with NTP.
>
> If you think the current situation is all good then maybe you should
> look at other bugs for ntp. e
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014, Miles Fidelman wrote:
And maybe, you should check out some of the upstream bug reports re.
systemd interactions with NTP.
If you think the current situation is all good then maybe you should look
at other bugs for ntp. eg this one I that affected me with Ubuntu Disktop.
T
On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 9:18 PM, wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 20:45:01 -0500, Jeffrey Ollie said:
>
>> As I've already said a couple of times, systemd does not force a
>> particular NTP implementation on you. It comes with one (timedated),
>> and has a utility to manage it (timedatectl) but the
On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 9:08 PM, Miles Fidelman
wrote:
> Hey... how about not using selective editing to change the thread of
> discussion (see below)
>
> If you're going to simply keep repeating "I like systemd, everything is
> copacetic" - maybe you should take your fanboy attitude elsewhere, a
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 20:45:01 -0500, Jeffrey Ollie said:
> As I've already said a couple of times, systemd does not force a
> particular NTP implementation on you. It comes with one (timedated),
> and has a utility to manage it (timedatectl) but the admin can install
> and use a different one if t
Hey... how about not using selective editing to change the thread of
discussion (see below)
Jeffrey Ollie wrote:
On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 8:35 PM, Miles Fidelman
wrote:
Re. NTP: Timekeeping is rather essential in lots of applications - like, for
example, transit operations, where I currently s
On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 8:35 PM, Miles Fidelman
wrote:
>
> Re. NTP: Timekeeping is rather essential in lots of applications - like, for
> example, transit operations, where I currently spend my work life. An
> accurate, accessible central clock tends to be a rather important system
> component.
Israel G. Lugo wrote:
On 10/23/2014 12:05 AM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote:
systemd is a tool designed to get the system to a state where "real
work" can be done. NTP servers, DHCP clients, consoles, aren't the
real work of a system, or at least I hope not, because that would be
boring to me.
Depends
On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 7:36 PM, Israel G. Lugo wrote:
>
> For example, I'm very interested in NTP and accurate timekeeping --
> mostly as a personal hobby, but it's been useful at work as well. I for
> one would definitely not consider NTP one of those "details" that just
> "come with the bootup
On 10/23/2014 12:05 AM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote:
> systemd is a tool designed to get the system to a state where "real
> work" can be done. NTP servers, DHCP clients, consoles, aren't the
> real work of a system, or at least I hope not, because that would be
> boring to me.
That idea sounds interes
On 10/22/2014 02:43 PM, Rich Kulawiec wrote:
> A Leatherman pocket multitool is highly useful: I've had one for years.
> It's great. Until you need two screwdrivers at the same time...at which
> point it becomes obvious why serious mechanics/craftsmen carry around a
> toolbox with dozens of tools
On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 4:43 PM, Rich Kulawiec wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 11:30:57AM -0500, Jeffrey Ollie wrote:
>> The people that like systemd (like myself) have wisely learned that
>> the people that hate systemd, hate it mostly because it's different
>> from what came before and don't wa
On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 3:49 PM, Miles Fidelman
wrote:
>
> 1. Experimentation and learning curve take time. That's a real cost that's
> being imposed.
What makes systemd different from any other technology in that respect?
> It's not clear that the benefits outweigh the costs of the status quo.
Well said, Rich.
Rich Kulawiec wrote:
On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 11:30:57AM -0500, Jeffrey Ollie wrote:
The people that like systemd (like myself) have wisely learned that
the people that hate systemd, hate it mostly because it's different
from what came before and don't want to change.
That's an
On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 11:30:57AM -0500, Jeffrey Ollie wrote:
> The people that like systemd (like myself) have wisely learned that
> the people that hate systemd, hate it mostly because it's different
> from what came before and don't want to change.
That's an entirely unfair characterization.
> 4. More fundamentally, 0-dark-30 events are almost always unexpected
> (other than in the sense of Murphy's Law), and tricky to resolve - one
> has hopefully prepared for the expected.
"If it was part of the 'plan' it’s an event; if it is not then it’s a
'disaster'"
Jeffrey Ollie wrote:
On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 3:22 PM, John Schiel wrote:
On 10/22/2014 01:30 PM, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 13:13:29 -0600, John Schiel said:
i was beginning to wonder how secure systemd is also.
One of the 3 CIA pillars of security is "availability".
On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 3:22 PM, John Schiel wrote:
>
> On 10/22/2014 01:30 PM, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 13:13:29 -0600, John Schiel said:
>>
>>> i was beginning to wonder how secure systemd is also.
>>
>> One of the 3 CIA pillars of security is "availability". And
On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 2:30 PM, wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 13:13:29 -0600, John Schiel said:
>
>> i was beginning to wonder how secure systemd is also.
>
> One of the 3 CIA pillars of security is "availability". And if
> it's oh-dark-30, figuring out what symlink is supposed to be where
> for
On 10/22/2014 01:30 PM, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 13:13:29 -0600, John Schiel said:
i was beginning to wonder how secure systemd is also.
One of the 3 CIA pillars of security is "availability". And if
it's oh-dark-30, figuring out what symlink is supposed to be where
On October 22, 2014 at 05:43 l...@satchell.net (Stephen Satchell) wrote:
>
> How did this discussion get into NANOG? :)
Because in the field of automotive engineering we are the ones who
actually need to get down the road on time, reliably, and consistently
while the automotive engineers prob
On October 22, 2014 at 11:36 jamie.s.bow...@raytheon.com (Jamie Bowden) wrote:
> > From: Bryan Tong
>
>
> > The final fact is that bash itself is a dirty language that developers hate
> > and system administrators love.
>
> Excuse me? I've been administering systems for over twenty year
On October 22, 2014 at 07:04 r...@gsp.org (Rich Kulawiec) wrote:
> I've seen similar tactical mistakes when developers insist that
> information *must* be stored in a relational database -- even though
> plain old ordinary text files are perfectly adequate for the task,
> are easier to debug,
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 13:13:29 -0600, John Schiel said:
> i was beginning to wonder how secure systemd is also.
One of the 3 CIA pillars of security is "availability". And if
it's oh-dark-30, figuring out what symlink is supposed to be where
for a given failed systemd unit can be a tad challenging
On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 2:13 PM, John Schiel wrote:
> On 10/22/2014 10:43 AM, C. Jon Larsen wrote:
>>
>> Incorrect assumption. systemd is a massive security hole waiting to happen
>> and it does not follow the unix philosophy of done 1 thing and do it
>> well/correct.
>
> i was beginning to wonder
On 10/22/2014 10:43 AM, C. Jon Larsen wrote:
Hardly. The discussion so far has been weighted very heavily on the
side of Dana Carvey's "Grumpy Old Man"-style whining. "That's the way
it was and we liked it!".
The people that like systemd (like myself) have wisely learned that
the people that
On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 01:35:26PM -0400, Daniel Corbe wrote:
> Not to get even further off topic here but when was the last time you
> maintained a BSD system? FreeBSD (at least) adopted binary package
> management as its preferred interface to ports through pkg-ng somewhere
> in the 9-RELEASE
On October 21, 2014 at 13:44 brun...@nic-naa.net (Eric Brunner-Williams) wrote:
> > systemd is insanity.
>
> see also smit.
SMIT! Rhymes with
--
-Barry Shein
The World | b...@theworld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 800-THE
On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 12:35 PM, George Herbert
wrote:
>
>
>
>
>> On Oct 22, 2014, at 9:30 AM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote:
>>
>> The people that like systemd (like myself) have wisely learned that
>> the people that hate systemd, hate it mostly because it's different
>> from what came before and don't
On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 11:43 AM, C. Jon Larsen wrote:
>
>> Hardly. The discussion so far has been weighted very heavily on the
>> side of Dana Carvey's "Grumpy Old Man"-style whining. "That's the way
>> it was and we liked it!".
>>
>> The people that like systemd (like myself) have wisely learne
Andrew Sullivan writes:
> On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 12:43:53PM -0400, C. Jon Larsen wrote:
>
>> Incorrect assumption. systemd is a massive security hole waiting to happen
>> and it does not follow the unix philosophy of done 1 thing and do it
>> well/correct.
>
> But I have no clue what one can do
> On Oct 22, 2014, at 9:30 AM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote:
>
> The people that like systemd (like myself) have wisely learned that
> the people that hate systemd, hate it mostly because it's different
> from what came before and don't want to change. There's no way to
> argue rationally with that.
On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 12:43:53PM -0400, C. Jon Larsen wrote:
> Incorrect assumption. systemd is a massive security hole waiting to happen
> and it does not follow the unix philosophy of done 1 thing and do it
> well/correct.
It does seem to me that this angle, at least, is on-topic for NANOG,
On 22-10-2014 17:30, Jeffrey Ollie wrote:
> Hardly. The discussion so far has been weighted very heavily on the
> side of Dana Carvey's "Grumpy Old Man"-style whining. "That's the way
> it was and we liked it!". The people that like systemd (like myself)
> have wisely learned that the people that h
Hardly. The discussion so far has been weighted very heavily on the
side of Dana Carvey's "Grumpy Old Man"-style whining. "That's the way
it was and we liked it!".
The people that like systemd (like myself) have wisely learned that
the people that hate systemd, hate it mostly because it's diff
On 22-10-2014 17:12, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> Seems to me, this has been a very rational discussion, confined to one
> very identifiable thread, containing what at least this reader finds
> very useful (operational impacts of systemd in server-side
> environments, and what alternatives people are lo
On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 11:12 AM, Miles Fidelman
wrote:
>
> Seems to me, this has been a very rational discussion,
Hardly. The discussion so far has been weighted very heavily on the
side of Dana Carvey's "Grumpy Old Man"-style whining. "That's the way
it was and we liked it!".
The people that
Jeffrey Ollie wrote:
On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 7:48 PM, Israel G. Lugo wrote:
Not intending to start a flame war here.
Bull. If you've been around the FOSS community even for a short
while, you'd know that systemd has become a religious topic akin to
Emacs vs. Vi "discussions" etc. I realize t
On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 7:48 PM, Israel G. Lugo wrote:
>
> Not intending to start a flame war here.
Bull. If you've been around the FOSS community even for a short
while, you'd know that systemd has become a religious topic akin to
Emacs vs. Vi "discussions" etc. I realize that many of the peop
On 22. okt. 2014 03:40, Matt Palmer wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 07:20:12PM -0500, Jimmy Hess wrote:
>> Yikes. What's next? Built-in DNS server + LDAP/Hesiod + Kerberos +
>> SMB/Active Directory client and server + Solitaire + Network
>> Neighborhood functionality built into the program ?
On 10/22/2014 04:04 AM, Rich Kulawiec wrote:
> I've seen similar tactical mistakes when developers insist that
> information *must* be stored in a relational database -- even though
> plain old ordinary text files are perfectly adequate for the task,
> are easier to debug, are easier to fix, and ea
> From: Bryan Tong
> The final fact is that bash itself is a dirty language that developers hate
> and system administrators love.
Excuse me? I've been administering systems for over twenty years now and I
can't say that I've ever even once chosen to use bash over any alternative; no
matter h
On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 06:17:09PM +0100, Israel G. Lugo wrote:
> The binary logs for example worry me, especially corruption issues:
As they should. Binary logs occasionally make sense in environments
where the amount of information to be logged is huge and the rate at
which it accumulates is ve
Subject: Re: Linux: concerns over systemd adoption and Debian's decision to
switch Date: Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 01:44:17PM -0700 Quoting Eric
Brunner-Williams (brun...@nic-naa.net):
> >systemd is insanity.
>
> see also smit.
(assumption, we're talking about AI
On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 09:40:30AM -0400, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 14:44:57 +0900, Randy Bush said:
systemd is insanity. one would have hoped that deb and others would
know better. sigh.
It started as a replacement init system. I suspected it had jumped
the shark wh
On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 07:20:12PM -0500, Jimmy Hess wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 8:40 AM, wrote:
> [snip]
> > It started as a replacement init system. I suspected it had jumped
> > the shark when it sprouted an entirely new DHCP and NTP service. And this
>
> Yikes. What's next? Built-
On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 09:40:30AM -0400, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 14:44:57 +0900, Randy Bush said:
> > systemd is insanity. one would have hoped that deb and others would
> > know better. sigh.
>
> It started as a replacement init system. I suspected it had jumped
>
On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 8:40 AM, wrote:
[snip]
> It started as a replacement init system. I suspected it had jumped
> the shark when it sprouted an entirely new DHCP and NTP service. And this
Yikes. What's next? Built-in DNS server + LDAP/Hesiod + Kerberos +
SMB/Active Directory client an
Philip Dorr wrote:
Could someone comment on why they chose systemd over upstart (other
than the Canonical CLA)? Or point to an article on it?
If you want to wade into the mess, the archives of the Debian Tech.
Committee (https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/), for Dec 2013-March
2014, make fo
Could someone comment on why they chose systemd over upstart (other
than the Canonical CLA)? Or point to an article on it?
Often presented with an alternate spelling from those of us who
had to live with it.
On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 01:44:17PM -0700, Eric Brunner-Williams wrote:
> >systemd is insanity.
>
> see also smit.
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