> Merry Xmas everyone. I want Santa to take over the project :)
>
We already get the gifts in may and november ;)
Merry Xmas everyone. I want Santa to take over the project :)
Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
Original Message
From: Christer Solskogen
Sent: Thursday 24 December 2015 23:45
To: misc
Subject: Re: text-mode gui
On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 10:00 PM, Theo de Raadt
wrote:
>> But I
On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 10:00 PM, Theo de Raadt wrote:
>> But I still maintain that putting an option in the installer to create
>> softraid crypto volumes automatically just dumbs down OpenBSD
>> unnecessarily, and encourages people to be lazy instead of learning how
>> to use the system to it's
On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 02:16:12PM GMT, Riccardo Mottola wrote:
> Hi,
Hi,
> this thread has gone a long way.
Yes, it has - I'll keep it short and to the point.
> I only have a minor complaint: the network has to be set-up if one
> uses stuff from the network (or performs an upgrade without havi
> Stuart Henderson wrote:
> > On 2015-12-23, Jack J. Woehr wrote:
> >> Ted Unangst wrote:
> >>> improvements to the installer are welcome. suggestions that the installer
> >>> could use javascript to write cookies are not an improvement.
> >> The installer could use a beer tap so we could have a c
Stuart Henderson wrote:
On 2015-12-23, Jack J. Woehr wrote:
Ted Unangst wrote:
improvements to the installer are welcome. suggestions that the installer
could use javascript to write cookies are not an improvement.
The installer could use a beer tap so we could have a cold one during a long
Hi,
this thread has gone a long way.
Ted Unangst wrote:
improvements to the installer are welcome. suggestions that the installer
could use javascript to write cookies are not an improvement.
I actually like the OpenBSD installer quite a bit! it is easy on the
machine, works and I have no is
On 2015-12-23, Jack J. Woehr wrote:
> Ted Unangst wrote:
>> improvements to the installer are welcome. suggestions that the installer
>> could use javascript to write cookies are not an improvement.
> The installer could use a beer tap so we could have a cold one during a long
> mkfs.
We already
On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 7:33 PM, Luke Small wrote:
> What point is there to having an automated machine, when you have to do
> everything manually.
You are generalizing improperly.
> I somewhat get why GUIs are maybe insecure, sloppy,
> not as robust and maybe a little tacky.
When you use a GUI
2015-12-22 22:10 GMT+01:00 :
> deviation from line oriented interfaces
> for the installer is not the way it can be handled by other systems,
> meaning it's not the least common denominator that lends itself to
> machine processing and there is point in improving this but going in
> the reverse
Luke Small wrote:
> In my worthless opinion though, I guess having folks getting an initial
> foothold and not having to read the man-pages and openbsd.org pages on a
> second computer, rather than say even lynx in the freshly installed system
> before figuring it out is asking too much. I have a
Ted Unangst wrote:
improvements to the installer are welcome. suggestions that the installer
could use javascript to write cookies are not an improvement.
The installer could use a beer tap so we could have a cold one during a long
mkfs.
--
Jack J. Woehr # Science is more than a body of kn
Ha Ha. I got Theo to call me a whiny prick! I'm getting the t-shirt.
>You play absolutely no part in the decisions that got OpenBSD to where it
is.
At least somebody is listening, even if they are ignoring everything.
What point is there to having an automated machine, when you have to do
everyth
Mon, 21 Dec 2015 18:40:48 -0600 Luke Small
> You are a normal user and have full disk encryption. You must have read the
> man page on how to do that? Found the installer option did you.
We're obviously missing your quick program you promised us for the
installer. Why this polemic, instead of ro
Tue, 22 Dec 2015 20:35:39 + Tati Chevron
> On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 10:20:16PM +0200, li...@wrant.com wrote:
> >Tue, 22 Dec 2015 13:36:38 -0500 "Ted Unangst"
> >> Tati Chevron wrote:
> >> > I have never understood exactly why people have so much difficulty
> >> > installing
> >> > a recen
Whatever the encryption or other stake raising argument is found today
or in the future, the point is, deviation from line oriented interfaces
for the installer is not the way it can be handled by other systems,
meaning it's not the least common denominator that lends itself to
machine processing a
Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:03:09 -0600 Luke Small
> I don't need a special need case.
Your own use case is deviating from the minimum required to install the
system in a supported by the installer way. And yes, you don't need a
special "need" case (giggling).
> I have already configured the system I n
Tue, 22 Dec 2015 13:36:38 -0500 "Ted Unangst"
> Tati Chevron wrote:
> > I have never understood exactly why people have so much difficulty
> > installing
> > a recent OpenBSD system on an encrypted partition.
> >
> > Basically, you boot bsd.rd as normal, and drop to a shell.
>
> Which nobody
On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 09:57:46PM +, Tati Chevron wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 02:00:26PM -0700, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> >>But I still maintain that putting an option in the installer to create
> >>softraid crypto volumes automatically just dumbs down OpenBSD
> >>unnecessarily, and encourag
On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 02:00:26PM -0700, Theo de Raadt wrote:
But I still maintain that putting an option in the installer to create
softraid crypto volumes automatically just dumbs down OpenBSD
unnecessarily, and encourages people to be lazy instead of learning how
to use the system to it's ful
> On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 02:00:26PM -0700, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> >> But I still maintain that putting an option in the installer to create
> >> softraid crypto volumes automatically just dumbs down OpenBSD
> >> unnecessarily, and encourages people to be lazy instead of learning how
> >> to use th
> But I still maintain that putting an option in the installer to create
> softraid crypto volumes automatically just dumbs down OpenBSD
> unnecessarily, and encourages people to be lazy instead of learning how
> to use the system to it's full potential.
It's great that you have an opinion.
Unfor
On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 08:35:39PM +, Tati Chevron wrote:
So the average person installing OpenBSD with, 'full disk encryption',
is gaining virtually nothing by doing that, that they couldn't do by
installing the system on an unencrypted partition and using a softraid
volume for their own dat
On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 10:20:16PM +0200, li...@wrant.com wrote:
Tue, 22 Dec 2015 13:36:38 -0500 "Ted Unangst"
Tati Chevron wrote:
> I have never understood exactly why people have so much difficulty installing
> a recent OpenBSD system on an encrypted partition.
>
> Basically, you boot bsd.rd
On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 01:36:38PM -0500, Ted Unangst wrote:
Tati Chevron wrote:
I have never understood exactly why people have so much difficulty installing
a recent OpenBSD system on an encrypted partition.
Assuming amd64 or i386:
Basically, you boot bsd.rd as normal, and drop to a shell.
Tati Chevron wrote:
> I have never understood exactly why people have so much difficulty installing
> a recent OpenBSD system on an encrypted partition.
>
> Assuming amd64 or i386:
>
> Basically, you boot bsd.rd as normal, and drop to a shell.
Which nobody does for an otherwise normal install.
On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 11:04:28AM +0100, Christoph R. Murauer wrote:
> > You are a normal user and have full disk encryption. You must have
> > read the man page on how to do that?
>
> I was curious and asked my favourite search engine for *openbsd full
> disc encryption* and got results like
> h
> You are a normal user and have full disk encryption. You must have
> read the man page on how to do that?
I was curious and asked my favourite search engine for *openbsd full
disc encryption* and got results like
http://www.bsdnow.tv/tutorials/fde, readed them and found the needed
commands. Yes,
On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 06:40:48PM -0600, Luke Small wrote:
You are a normal user and have full disk encryption. You must have read the
man page on how to do that? Found the installer option did you. I have read
several books on openbsd and all the man pages I could find and didn't find
out how t
You are a normal user and have full disk encryption. You must have read the
man page on how to do that? Found the installer option did you. I have read
several books on openbsd and all the man pages I could find and didn't find
out how to do it anywhere else other that how to webpages.
On Dec 21, 2
> I don't need a special need case. I have already configured the system
> I need, but it would have been nice to know about these configuration
> options earlier.
Just curious, if you have already a configured system why you then
complain about things like that ? The entry point for OpenBSD is RT
I don't need a special need case. I have already configured the system
I need, but it would have been nice to know about these configuration
options earlier. It was only because of Linux that I became aware of
some of the stuff like what vlc is and I fooled around with Web pages
and virtual HDs eno
> Back about 2008 I had my own way of downloading and installing, still
> with the stock installer. I'd download some files and put them on a
> CD, using the install floppy image as a boot image. Boot the CD as a
> floppy, shell out and mount it as a CD, then go back and install from
> a mounted
> >> > Usability means then it should be not only humans but also programs
> >> > who are able to interact with the installer. So, since stream editors
> >> > know nothing about this seasons' (or Luddite's) line drawing symbols,
> >> > and users barely see the information between these on another
This has gone wildly off-topic, please take it off list
--
A fool must now and then be right by chance.
> Luke Small
> >[...] It would be very easy to write a C
> >program to parse and edit fstab to make all the partitions softdep. I
> >wouldn't know how to automate a disklabel call in the way that
> >https://www.vultr.com/docs/setup-openbsd-5-6-with-full-disk-encryption
> >perfo
> > Usability means then it should be not only humans but also programs
> > who are able to interact with the installer. So, since stream editors
> > know nothing about this seasons' (or Luddite's) line drawing symbols,
> > and users barely see the information between these on another terminal
> >
On Sun, 20 Dec 2015 20:34:39 -0600 Luke Small
> I haven't really done a fresh install since 4.8 .
Not much point making installer suggestions then, you just don't use
it. You complain your feel for a lack of hand holding experience in
a fool proof solution would be the one to sort your problem.
I can't resist jumping in. I see what y'all are saying but have you
considered the possibility of multiple installers? The standard
officially supported and maintained one that's guaranteed to work.
Others, clearly labelled as contributed works, buried in sysutils and
maybe on github that have co
I haven't really done a fresh install since 4.8 . I didn't know the
partitions were mounted . I don't see a problem with making the operating
system user friendly enough that the only command line you really need to
do is maybe "pkg_add -u" or pkg_add for installing new software. If they
want to ru
I suspect that there could be a number of minor implementation tweaks that
could be addressed that would be convenient to avoid presumably to
streamline the install process for folks that would prefer to avoid an
incessant procession of questions.
There are other features that inexperienced users
On Mon, 21 Dec 2015, li...@wrant.com wrote:
>> > Usability means then it should be not only humans but also programs
>> > who are able to interact with the installer. So, since stream editors
>> > know nothing about this seasons' (or Luddite's) line drawing symbols,
>> > and users barely see the i
Luke Small wrote:
>[...] It would be very easy to write a
> C
>program to parse and edit fstab to make all the partitions softdep. I
>wouldn't know how to automate a disklabel call in the way that
>https://www.vultr.com/docs/setup-openbsd-5-6-with-full-disk-encryption
>performs
Luke Small said:
> There are other features that inexperienced users could benefit from, like
> selecting a mirror for PKG_PATH and putting it into .profile . I think that
> it would be convenient to be able have a new user not to have to wade
> through man pages to learn about "echo " PKG_PATH..."
On 20 Dec 2015 at 17:25, Luke Small wrote:
8<-- lots of drivel snipped --->8
>... but a
>normal user shouldn't have to wade through man pages to discover how to fix
>...
This is the crux of the issue -- linux upbringing! If you bothered to
read the FAQ or scan through some me
Luke Small said:
> I don't know the best way, but I like how there are "check-boxes", from
> what I recall, in lynx webpages.
OpenBSD installer solves the checkbox problem by asking questions with
default answer printed in square brackets.
> If there are other things, then it may become a little
On Sun, 20 Dec 2015 14:03:18 -0600 Luke Small
wrote:
> I don't know the best way, but I like how there are "check-boxes", from
> what I recall, in lynx webpages.
And? Bookmarks or... direct private cumulus clouds of edible sugar,
preferably in cyanide algae nuances with self attaching axons.
>
I can do that. All I have to do is read in the file to a buffer until it
gets to a section separated by a space and includes commas and writing a
new buffer with ",softdep added to it. Easy Peasy!
-Luke
On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 5:48 PM, Mike Burns
wrote:
> On 2015-12-20 17.25.14 -0600, Luke Smal
On 2015-12-20 17.25.14 -0600, Luke Small wrote:
>It would be very easy to write a C
>program to parse and edit fstab to make all the partitions softdep.
Can we see your patch?
1. Maybe it doesn't have to be done in JavaScript; even partially, like
part of the installer is running fdisk. It would be very easy to write a C
program to parse and edit fstab to make all the partitions softdep. I
wouldn't know how to automate a disklabel call in the way that
http
> Usability means then it should be not only humans but also programs
> who are able to interact with the installer. So, since stream editors
> know nothing about this seasons' (or Luddite's) line drawing symbols,
> and users barely see the information between these on another terminal
> capabilit
> I don't know the best way, but I like how there are "check-boxes",
> from what I recall, in lynx webpages.
Means in short, you like lynx. There was a long discussion at misc@
why lynx was removed from the base system. See
http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&r=1&w=2
to search for it.
> Maybe full
gt; > using...
>
> Mentioning menu systems is an incorrect idea too, read bellow.
>
> First, what is this mythical "text-mode gui"? A text mode garbled user
> interface, a new oxymoron of textual and graphical interfaces in the
> same definition, or another gaseous non
On Sun, 20 Dec 2015 14:58:27 + Tati Chevron
wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 04:29:37PM +0200, li...@wrant.com wrote:
> >On Sun, 20 Dec 2015 10:51:20 + Tati Chevron
> >wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 05:34:59PM -0600, Luke Small
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >If installer GUIs are
JavaScript that could write to cookies that the installer could
> >parse into commands?
>
> There are much better ways to implement text-based menu systems than
> using...
Mentioning menu systems is an incorrect idea too, read bellow.
First, what is this mythical "text-mod
I don't know the best way, but I like how there are "check-boxes", from
what I recall, in lynx webpages. Maybe full-disk encryption and maybe home
folder encryption if it is available are the only remaining installer
options that you don't have to have prior specialized knowledge to perform,
that y
On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 04:29:37PM +0200, li...@wrant.com wrote:
On Sun, 20 Dec 2015 10:51:20 + Tati Chevron
wrote:
On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 05:34:59PM -0600, Luke Small
wrote:
>
>If installer GUIs are bad, maybe features like full-disk encryption
>could be accomplished via lynx-like text
On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 05:34:59PM -0600, Luke Small wrote:
If installer GUIs are bad, maybe features like full-disk encryption could
be accomplished via lynx-like text -based HTML and/or JavaScript that could
write to cookies that the installer could parse into commands?
There are much better
On 12/19/15 18:34, Luke Small wrote:
> If installer GUIs are bad, maybe features like full-disk encryption could
> be accomplished via lynx-like text -based HTML and/or JavaScript that could
> write to cookies that the installer could parse into commands?
>
> -Luke
Please, no.
In fact, I'm hopin
If installer GUIs are bad, maybe features like full-disk encryption could
be accomplished via lynx-like text -based HTML and/or JavaScript that could
write to cookies that the installer could parse into commands?
-Luke
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