[FRIAM] in the interest of consistency

In the interest of consistency: No vaccination then no hemorrhoid medication! https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/09/hospital-staff-must-swear-off-tylenol-tums-to-get-religious-vaccine-exemption/ .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . FRIAM Applied Complexi

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

Was it Joan Jett who penned the lyrics “I don’t give a damn about being out of favor" > On Sep 17, 2021, at 8:08 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > > I should have said "out of favor" instead of "bad reputation". > > --- > Frank C. Wimberly > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > > 505 670-99

Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc

""" Were M absolutely, perfectly faithful to W, there would be no epiphenomena in M. I.e. epiphenomena do not exist... """ I read Glen as saying that the collection of all comprehensions forms a space equipped with a meaningful notion of distance, and that if one were to treat the space analytical

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

This is where there is a style of use of language that may be unique to Nick among all humans, or may be a tribal custom among the psychologists, but which the common man needs to be aware exists, so that he knows that the way Nick/psychologists use words will be directly opposed to the way the

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

Just like the rest of you. n Nick Thompson thompnicks...@gmail.com https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2021 8:15 PM To: The Friday

Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc

Glen, Please stop telling me that I am a Scurrilous Heathen for not having read stuff. Furthermore, I stipulate that you have read more than I have, and will read more than I will in the future. So, guess you don't have to say that, either. I daresay you haven't read von Uexkull on the Umwe

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

> On Sep 17, 2021, at 1:28 AM, > wrote: > > Would any of you buy a seat belt that was marketed to not cause deaths? You > are so lost in your point about small numbers that you’ve lost your sense of > the plain meaning of words. Sheesh! Yes. Like “goal”. And “function”. I pass judgmen

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

Yes, I wondered if anyone else enjoyed that as much as I did. > On Sep 17, 2021, at 1:15 AM, Roger Critchlow wrote: > > sum(reasons_for_death) != number_of_deaths, and Death itself is listed as a > reported cause of death. > > -- rec -- > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 12:01 PM Pieter Steenekamp

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

I wonder if behaviorists feel the same. They will observe their behavior to learn how they feel. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 6:10 PM David Eric Smith wrote: > Was it Joan Jett who penned the lyrics “I don’t give

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

I should have said "out of favor" instead of "bad reputation". --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 3:50 PM Frank Wimberly wrote: > I don't think psychologists in general use language that way. > Behaviorists may. When I

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

I think it is Phaedrus’s conceit that all perception begins with pleasure or pain. n Nick Thompson thompnicks...@gmail.com https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam On Behalf Of Steve Smith Sent

Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc

Steve, Yes. I like your example of idio-giggles. Yes, I have seen that happen, although never experienced. Going to have to do a rethink about how I describe the phenomenon. In fact some of the most persistent cases of The Giggles I have ever been around are cases where the Giggler find

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

Hi, EricS You faith in my consistency is touching (};-)]. I know that, in response to this, Nick will reply with a sequence of English-language words that I find even more unparseable than the ones above. Frankly, you shouldn’t have any faith that my average psychology colleague wil

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

I don't think psychologists in general use language that way. Behaviorists may. When I was a graduate student in psychology 55 years ago behaviorism had a bad reputation, at least at Carnegie Mellon but I suspect at other places that emphasized theories of cognition. After a year I switched to t

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

NST - In my (lame) pursuit of enlightenment I find that pleasure and pain start to muddle together with all other less-judged experiences...   slipping into the flow of "what is"...  and those experiences become more and more ineffable or more apropos, less effing effable? - SAS > Great.  That i

Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc

NST wrote: > > “KSR, SR, SR, What ever will be will be.  The future’s not ours to > see. KSR, SR. “ > grin+giggle => griggle .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/

Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc

NST - > > Well, Steve, > >   > > Again I ask,  What exactly are you seeking.  And why are you seeking > THAT?  > I'll take this as a literal question, directed specifically *to* me based on the text I just shared.    The simple, glib answer is "I don't know" to both questions.   A similarly simplif

Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc

Colleagues, This looks good. Could somebody provide a translation for me? Of course, Glen could just be making fun of me, and I would never know. n Nick Thompson thompnicks...@gmail.com https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -Original Message- From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ Sent

Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc

Fine. There's no need to argue over words. It's simply one part of the universe, say M, mapped to another part of the universe, say W. The extent to which M is faithful to W is one aspect. And the structural properties of M are another aspect. Epiphenomena are artifacts of M and only M. Were M a

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

I don’t think it holds up. People delay gratification to save money or complete needed tasks. People put on vests full of explosives and blow themselves up in the name of abstractions. Actually I think the feelings can be quantified with some machine learning and an appropriate array of se

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

Great. That is indeed the weakest point in my argument. It is the central argument of Sober and Wilson’s UNTO OTHERS

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

There are primary and secondary ICD-10 codes for cause of death, there might be some double counting. From: Friam On Behalf Of David Eric Smith Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2021 1:20 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true? Ye

Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc

"Re: your claim that monism unifies epistemology and ontology" I wouldn't phrase it that way. I would say that there is no meaningful distinction between epistemology, ontology, and metaphysics, and that if they appear to be different that is a sign of confusion. You can approach the same subject

Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc

“KSR, SR, SR, What ever will be will be. The future’s not ours to see. KSR, SR. “ Nick Thompson thompnicks...@gmail.com https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam On Behalf Of Steve Smith Sent:

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

Does all conscious (even synthetic) life need to be driven by a pleasure motive? This seems to be Nick’s claim. I expect the way this argument plays out is that, e.g., altruism is defined to “feel good”. It is tautological. On Sep 16, 2021, at 12:22 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:  so

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

some of us might be writing only to hear ourselves gumflap? Pt! All of us are and all of us aren’t. For my own case, I am writing here to develop my thinking, so that it may someday coalesce into something that I publish, with, or without, others. That that enterprise is not entire

Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc

On 9/16/21 10:40 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote: > Ha! Yeah, CBT has mostly been replaced by ACT these days. And there's plenty > of reasons to classify animals into somatic versus cognitive. Mindfulness, > like CBT, is limited. Yoga spans them, with its typical practice. I was > recently forced to learn a

Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc

Well, Steve, Again I ask, What exactly are you seeking. And why are you seeking THAT? Just TO head off the usual, this is NOT for me a kinky question but a very abstract one. And, to be honest, it is a bit rhetorical; ie. I already have the arrogance to think that I know the answer.

Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc

I doubt I'll make it to vFriAM tomorrow. My schedule hasn't been conducive lately. So, I'll take the nugget in your text below that I can reply to best. My claim is *not* that the distinction between phenomena and epiphenomena is relative to a point of view. That's *your* claim, not mine. My cla

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

On 9/16/21 10:35 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote: > > Just so’s you know, > >   > > I took it from this email thread, where it pretty much stood alone. > >   > > And remember.  Y ou (we) aren’t just writing to one another.  You (we) > are writing to 300 other people. > And according to Glen a fe

Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc

On 9/16/21 10:30 AM, Roger Critchlow wrote: > There's a PTSD character in "Ministry for the Future" who is the sole > survivor of a mass climate fatality.  He doesn't have much success > using CBT to tame his triggers. I read that character/aspect as CBT possibly keeping him from being entirely g

Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc

Glen, Are we mixing up monadism with monism? I think the epistemic/ontological distinction fails under monism. Either everything is ontological or everything is epistemic, and in any case there is no in-principle distinction to be made between them. Under peirce's triadic monism all exper

Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc

Marcus  wrote: > Why did the big bang occur?  Was it because God had an orgasm?  Jesus. > The unfolding universe *is* the orgasm?         ... induced by the meta-Goddess-as-Dominatrix wielding Dark-Energy-Stim? I *was* aware of the sex-application, though I would question Dave's 10,000x purchase

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

And you can see that there are two deaths for the placebo and none for BNT162b2.There was a low death rate in this cohort, period, and essentially an unmeasurable signal for COVID caused death. From: Friam On Behalf Of Pieter Steenekamp Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2021 10:17 AM To: The Fr

Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc

Since I'm bored with this webinar, I figured I'd type up some more troll food: The _epi-_ prefix basically means "near". So a phenomenon is, somehow, ontologically localized and an epiphenomenon is epistemically distant. But that "secondary" phenomenon need not be ontologically distant, which is

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

Marcus, The data are fresh from the horse's mouth, Phizer themselves. Their main report https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261159v1.full.pdf and their supplementary data https://www.medrxiv.org/content/medrxiv/early/2021/07/28/2021.07.28.21261159/DC1/embed/media-1.pdf Maybe you

Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc

Ha! Yeah, CBT has mostly been replaced by ACT these days. And there's plenty of reasons to classify animals into somatic versus cognitive. Mindfulness, like CBT, is limited. Yoga spans them, with its typical practice. I was recently forced to learn about Somatic Experiencing®, and had to point o

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

Just so’s you know, I took it from this email thread, where it pretty much stood alone. And remember. Y ou (we) aren’t just writing to one another. You (we) are writing to 300 other people. n Nick Thompson thompnicks...@gmail.com

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

Trials are done in phases. First they have to establish that the treatment does no harm. That’s what this was about. Some anti-vax jerk probably dug up this reference and started quoting it out of context, like you are. From: Friam On Behalf Of thompnicks...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, Septem

Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc

There's a PTSD character in "Ministry for the Future" who is the sole survivor of a mass climate fatality. He doesn't have much success using CBT to tame his triggers. -- rec -- On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 11:56 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote: > Thanks for linking the trigger warning article. There's only 1 t

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

You guys keep proving my point about the 100th Meridian and irony. Would any of you buy a seat belt that was marketed to not cause deaths? You are so lost in your point about small numbers that you’ve lost your sense of the plain meaning of words. Sheesh! n Nick Thompson

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

sum(reasons_for_death) != number_of_deaths, and Death itself is listed as a reported cause of death. -- rec -- On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 12:01 PM Pieter Steenekamp < piet...@randcontrols.co.za> wrote: > For what it's worth, from table S4 in the supplementary data > https://www.medrxiv.org/content/

Re: [FRIAM] Random Evolutions

I found it amusing that a 1969 article by two New Mexicans faces an ad announcing the cure of Pine Bark Beetle infestations in western mountain forests. -- rec -- On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 9:53 PM Roger Frye wrote: > Wait a minute. I thought this was the Reuben thread, not the wild dream > threa

Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc

Why did the big bang occur? Was it because God had an orgasm? Jesus. From: Friam On Behalf Of thompnicks...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2021 8:54 AM To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc And how were those goals picked o

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

For what it's worth, from table S4 in the supplementary data https://www.medrxiv.org/content/medrxiv/early/2021/07/28/2021.07.28.21261159/DC1/embed/media-1.pdf Reported Cause of Death BNT162b2 (N=21,926) Placebo (N=21,921) Deaths15

Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc

Ha! You are the worst type of troll. Why we keep feeding you is a question for the age. Obviously, I haven't claimed there are no phenomena. I've claimed there are no epiphenomena. On 9/16/21 8:56 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote: > Ok. Iff so, there are no phenemona, just apparent phenomena

Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc

Ok. Iff so, there are no phenemona, just apparent phenomena. I'm ok with that. n Nick Thompson thompnicks...@gmail.com https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -Original Message- From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2021 11:10 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subjec

Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc

And how were those goals picked out from among other goals. n Nick Thompson thompnicks...@gmail.com https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels Sent: Thursday, September

Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc

Thanks for linking the trigger warning article. There's only 1 thing in there I can't abide: "At the college level, we don't believe the Holocaust, slavery, genocide, and other harrowing topics should come in two different versions: 'regular' and 'lite.'" Every intellectualized treatment of fu

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

Pittsburgh irony: Ooh. Yinz are rill tough. I'm skeered. Cf. Kasich, who is from McKees Rocks which is across the river from "dahntahn" Pittsburgh. Yinz = "you ones" similar to "y'all" in the South. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On T

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

Are you being “ironic” again? You didn’t read the paper. From: Friam On Behalf Of thompnicks...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2021 8:00 AM To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true? But that’s not what the passage says!

Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc

Any Prolog (logic) program will have a goal. Satisfying that goal does not involve any notion of pleasure. AI’s can have goals without pleasure. Stoics too. On Sep 16, 2021, at 7:59 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:  One man’s thread bending is another’s getting to the point. By the way,

Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc

I'm not talking about observations, or your observations. I'm talking about the classification of a phenomenon as secondary or non-causal. There are no secondary or non-causal phenomena. There are no epiphenomena, only apparent epiphenomena. On 9/16/21 7:54 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote: >

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

But that’s not what the passage says! n Nick Thompson thompnicks...@gmail.com https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2021 10:44 AM To:

Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc

One man’s thread bending is another’s getting to the point. By the way, how does an outcome come to be desired other than it delivers pleasure? How else do you tell the desired ones from the other ones. Eh? n Nick Thompson thompnicks...@gmail.com

Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc

Glen, All observations are myopic. All observations are from a point of view. All propositions are three-valued. So, what is this universal point of view from which you hold my observations to be myopic? Eh? Even back on my meds I can see that there is something wrong with that. n Nic

[FRIAM] slick as grease--grabit while it's hot

https://www.star.nesdis.noaa.gov/GOES/conus_band.php?sat=G16 &band=GEOCOLOR&length=24 In this image, the best slip/slidin' is going on in the NE, as the weak tropical circulation slides under the upper level

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

There are less COVID deaths in the vaccinated group. The death count includes things like car accidents. No fancy statistical reasoning required. On Sep 16, 2021, at 7:41 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:  Then we can say with a 99% probability that the vaccination does not increase the

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

Then we can say with a 99% probability that the vaccination does not increase the total (again all causes) death rate with more than a factor of 1.6. Oh I am so glad. So reassuring*. You guys are scaring the total crap out of us citizens. N PS to Frank. There’s lot’s of irony i

Re: [FRIAM] "Layers of the atmosphere do not mix.""

Ugh! Sorry everybody. There must be a way to capture the current image. Anyway, it was really good. You had to be there. N Nick Thompson thompnicks...@gmail.com https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc

One good mob deserves another. Why not? On Sep 16, 2021, at 6:10 AM, Roger Critchlow wrote:  The Chronicle of Higher Education noticed that there have been two massive cancellation protests against fraternities where sexual assaults were reported in the past few months, in Kansas and Nebrask

Re: [FRIAM] "Layers of the atmosphere do not mix.""

Notice how that URL is now showing the current clouds on Thursday morning, not the ones that Nick was looking at on Wednesday morning. -- rec -- On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 11:08 AM wrote: > > https://www.star.nesdis.noaa.gov/GOES/conus_band.php?sat=G16&band=GEOCOLOR&length=24 > > Notice how the la

Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc

The Chronicle of Higher Education noticed that there have been two massive cancellation protests against fraternities where sexual assaults were reported in the past few months, in Kansas and Nebraska. Is group cancellation better/worse than individual cancellation? Are students at Kansas and Ne

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

Excellent, this is something that one can demonstrate for oneself, no need to take the experts at their word, check their work. This is something that Andrew Gelman is always repeating on his blog, https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/: if you aren't sure what the statistics is telling you, then

Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true?

Thank you Roger, Using the numbers from Phizer's report, I did a sort of quick and dirty manual iteration process to get to the following Monte Carlo testing conclusion If: a) the total death rate of the unvaccinated is 14/22000 (all causes) and b) a total of 15 out of 22000 (again all causes)

Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc

Both EricC's and Marcus' responses say what I'm about to say, but in different language. There is no such thing as 'epiphenomena'. When you see something you *think* is epi, it means you've imputed your preconceived function. It's myopic preemptive registration. On September 15, 2021 8:24:49