NST - In my (lame) pursuit of enlightenment I find that pleasure and pain start to muddle together with all other less-judged experiences... slipping into the flow of "what is"... and those experiences become more and more ineffable or more apropos, less effing effable?
- SAS > Great. That is indeed the weakest point in my argument. It is the > central argument of Sober and Wilson’s UNTO OTHERS > <https://www.amazon.com/Unto-Others-Evolution-Psychology-Unselfish/dp/0674930479/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=wilson+and+sober+unto+others&qid=1631822440&sr=8-1https://www.bing.com/search?q=amazon+com&form=IENTNB&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&msnews=1&refig=01d8e6a6f68f4e79c1b939b52a4e26a6&sp=1&ghc=1&filters=ufn%3A%22amazon+com%22+sid%3A%22ce00286a-e903-ff2c-7dac-b49bd707399c%22&qs=MB&pq=ama&sc=8-3&cvid=01d8e6a6f68f4e79c1b939b52a4e26a6>. > I hate (and have done so repeatedly in print) confusing tautologies > with statements of fact. So this is indeed my petard your are > threatening to hoist me on. > > > > First, let me stipulate that there are pain motives, and that pain is > not the cessation of pleasure, nor pleasure the cessation of pain. I > assume that that stipulation will not change your question, right? > > > > Hearing me try to wiggle out of the tautology problem will require a > lot of patience of you. It will lead us into the dreadful confusion > of “the hard problem” and “effing the ineffable”. Only for the strong > of heart. I predict that you will say, at some point, “Nick, you are > confusing what a feeling does with what a feeling is, and only I can > know what my feelings are.” And I will say, “No. No. That is > nonsense, Marcus, and even you know it. Anybody who has ever been > married or even owned a dog knows that others can often gauge feelings > better than the feeling-owner.” And you will reply, “No, no, > Nicholas, you idiot. Yours will be a INFERENCE of my feelings; I know > my own feelings directly, without inference.” And I will say, “No. > No, Marcus. A thousand experiments in psychology will demonstrate > that the feeling owner is often wrong about his own feelings.” And > notice that I am at that point edging you up to the tautology line > because one way to define feelings that ends the argument is to say > that my feelings just are those experiences that I and I alone can > know uniquely. Frank and Bruce Simon and I have been over this > ground a gazillion times. > > > > It’s possible we can avoid it, but I don’t think so. To test the > proposition, ask yourself: if we stripped the notion of pleasure of > all association with how a pleasure feels uniquely and momentarily to > you, would you still raise the question you do. Would you still ask, > > > > “Does all conscious (even synthetic) life need to be driven by a > pleasure motive? This seems to be Nick’s claim. I expect the way > this argument plays out is that, e.g., altruism is defined to “feel > good”. It is tautological. > > " > > If that question disappears for you under those circumstances, then I > can simply admit that a pleasure is just the behavioral transition > that occurs upon the achievement of set of circumstances, and escape > the tautology by defining a goal as the organization of behavior that > points to a set of circumstances. > > > > So. Where are we an the socalled Hard Problem. I know you have > probably said, but, to be honest, I don’t remember. > > > > Nick > > > > Nick Thompson > > thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> > > > > *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Marcus Daniels > *Sent:* Thursday, September 16, 2021 3:48 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > <friam@redfish.com> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true? > > > > Does all conscious (even synthetic) life need to be driven by a > pleasure motive? This seems to be Nick’s claim. I expect the way > this argument plays out is that, e.g., altruism is defined to “feel > good”. It is tautological. > > > > On Sep 16, 2021, at 12:22 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com > <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > some of us might be writing only to hear ourselves gumflap? > > > > Pfffft! All of us are and all of us aren’t. > > > > For my own case, I am writing here to develop my thinking, so that > it may someday coalesce into something that I publish, with, or > without, others. That that enterprise is not entirely nugatory > is evident in my writing which is both stable and evolving and > usually does involve others. > > > > I stipulate that you all may be being forced to serve in a cause > you may not have signed up for. I guess this is the point where a > glen would say, “Live with it!” > > > > n > > > > Nick Thompson > > thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> > > > > *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com > <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> *On Behalf Of *Steve Smith > *Sent:* Thursday, September 16, 2021 3:06 PM > *To:* friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Could this possibly be true? > > > > > > On 9/16/21 10:35 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com > <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Just so’s you know, > > > > I took it from this email thread, where it pretty much stood > alone. > > > > And remember. Y ou (we) aren’t just writing to one another. > You (we) are writing to 300 other people. > > And according to Glen a few threads in the weft-weave back, some > of us might be writing only to hear ourselves gumflap? I think > that (his characterization or my characterization of his > characterization or both) might be hyperbolic. > > > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- > --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> > archives: > 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > <https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/> > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/> > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
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