Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

Dave, This is, of course, exactly the opposite of my creation myth in which the slate is wiped clean after every generation. But it would explain a belief system in which well-being was the deserved reward of having lived well in a previous life. While I am here, please let me point o

Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

Purely from my academic understanding of the subject; the Nick that is, at this moment / in this incarnation, is a product of karma accrued and shed over multiple instances of existence. Hence, what you are now is precisely what you _deserve_ to be. All persons may have been created equal some u

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Those who seek cooperative or collaborative support, jointly generated, from others, should explain themselves to all as contributing a part of the joint effort, collaboration, and mutual responsibility. The same argument applies to not being exploitative in wage negotiations, poisoning backyar

Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

Hi, Glen, You wrote: I read *through* the word to a constellation of ideals behind it, including dyed in the wool socialism, if not anarchism. I cannot see how my “creation myth” as you aptly term it, leads to government control of the means of production, let alone anarchism. I am

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Two thoughts on your below, Jochen, which seem to me to belong in the list along with what you have: 1. If we don’t care what they called it — “element” — then the question is, were the classical Greeks as right as one could be at the time? We now use the word “element” to refer to a Mendeleev

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Makes me think of Rand Paul. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, 5:54 PM Marcus Daniels wrote: > A public servant remarked to me that their boss mostly does things to > pacify unreasonable people. This in turn encourage

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

A public servant remarked to me that their boss mostly does things to pacify unreasonable people. This in turn encourages more unreasonable behavior. The agency of the unreasonable people is characterized by how much disruption they can cause, not by the inherent value of the goals that they

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

EricS - > This is all about holding a position that the society you live in is illegitimate, and wanting to act out your > animosity toward it or contempt for it, as a kind of defiant expression of some kind of agency.  Well stated... I think this captures a lot of the degenerate behaviour of th

Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

I appreciate the shift from "/equality/" as some kind of universal and/or objective to "/respect/" as something closer to a localized, pairwise set of relations.   If the earth is covered with humans who have significant mutual respect among our social networks/relations, that leads to a smooth if

Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

Yeah, talk of equality is sophistry, in the bad sense of the word. But, NOT being a postmodernist, myself, I read *through* the word to a constellation of ideals behind it, including dyed in the wool socialism, if not anarchism. But unlike Nick's creation myth, I tend to think of it in terms of

Re: [FRIAM] interesting - if true

Dave, I think there's some truth to the general picture you're painting, but your leading statistic is going to have to be based on household income, or qualified in some other way, to have a good chance of being true. As of 2019, there were ~30 million people making over 100k/year, out of 235 mil

Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

In seventh grade we in learned that the obvious falsity of the proposition is solved by realizing that it means that all men are (should be) politically equal. I'm not sure that's what the writers meant. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On

Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

Marcus wrote: > > You are made of matter following some trajectory that was initiated > with the big bang, and you will go where you will go.  There is no > “deserve”. >             "The universe is flux, all else is opinion" - M. Aurelius and... "they're merely talking to hear themselve

Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

You are made of matter following some trajectory that was initiated with the big bang, and you will go where you will go. There is no "deserve". From: Friam On Behalf Of thompnicks...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 1:04 PM To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' Sub

[FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

Sarbajit, If I understand the shape of the globe correctly, you are waking up pretty soon, and I would like to pick up the conversation about caste, if you don't mind. I believe the proposition in the subject line. Given the many ways that proposition can be understood as plainly fals

Re: [FRIAM] interesting - if true

< If these were true, it would be interesting to the extent it belies the caricatures of the Republican party as the bastion of the plutocrats and the Democratic party as the champion of the working class.> Did anyone watch Pennyworth? The father is a possible picture of today's anti-liberal-

[FRIAM] interesting - if true

I encountered the following assertions but have not been able to confirm or refute. 65% of Americans earning $500,000/yr or more are registered Democrats and 74% of those earning $100,000 or less are Registered Republican. (Supposedly, IRS is source, but I can find it.) The 20 wealthiest Congr

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

A woman brings in her husband to an ER having a heart attack, and she shows the staff vaccinations record for both of them, versus a man that obviously has COVID and his wife says there was no vaccination, and they never would consider it. All things being equal if a choice is needed to take on

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

> We could also deconflate "should" with "needs to be" in the sense that > the former is a social/moral judgement while the latter is intended to > be held a adaptive system feedback loop? > > If we consider "stupid" to be all things "maladaptive" then "punishing" > those behaviours helps to winno

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Explain themselves to _? To you? For the purpose of ___? Securing your approval? On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 1:13 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > They need to explain themselves, and it is entirely appropriate to make their > lives risky and inconvenient until they do. > > *From:* Friam

Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

 uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote: > It's not a matter of being absolute or not. It's a matter of nit-picking the > particular word used rather than trying to dig into the mechanism. Balling up > the composition into "have", "are", or "doing" is all useless posturing. I > don't care. Use "are" if you want. I don

Re: [FRIAM] Kill it!

I live about thirty-miles from **Best Friends** — the largest or one of the largest no-kill animal sanctuaries in the US. They also are the center of a national network of shelters and and rescue operations. One of the programs they have been promoting, throughout their network, the past severa

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

They need to explain themselves, and it is entirely appropriate to make their lives risky and inconvenient until they do. From: Friam On Behalf Of Prof David West Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:07 PM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side Glen is very sensitive to pot

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Glen is very sensitive to potential misrepresentation/misinterpretation of his words, as am I. I merely asked if Glen's sentences, which on their face seem to equate anti-vax and stupid, should be interpreted that way. In a sense I was trolling him because I know he would not make such a blanket

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote: > ... then it's a reasonable heuristic to skip all the extra words and ball up > all their actions and thoughts into the person. I try not to do that. And > based on my ability to have calm, civilized discussions with people who yell > spittle in my face, I think I do OK at it.

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

We could also deconflate "should" with "needs to be" in the sense that the former is a social/moral judgement while the latter is intended to be held a adaptive system feedback loop? If we consider "stupid" to be all things "maladaptive" then "punishing" those behaviours helps to winnow the popula

Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

Ach! My point was I don't think you need organisms, or minds, or any of the "hard" stuff, to run into the logical problems entailed in moving between levels of organization. Perhaps I am just too old, too slow, too HOT, too uninformed, to be in this argument, right now. Or ever?Not withou

Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

Choosing a particular emotion misses the point, confuses the noise for the signal. The polyphenism, alone, demonstrates that starting with a particular emotion and working inversely from that phenotype to the generators is guaranteed to be a difficult problem ... you're guaranteeing that we stay

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

In the spirit of multiple frequencies/scales or qualitative dimensions/modes of aggregation: What about the concern that habituating (and/or coercing) the entire population of first-world (and much of third world) countries to accepting (eagerly?) something which could credibly be as nefarious as

Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

It's not a matter of being absolute or not. It's a matter of nit-picking the particular word used rather than trying to dig into the mechanism. Balling up the composition into "have", "are", or "doing" is all useless posturing. I don't care. Use "are" if you want. I don't care. It's silly to dis

Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

Locating at least one kind of fear: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0006156 Billiard ball contact: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_mechanics Bucky spends a lot of time talking about our flat earth / Newtonian view of Universe, while Einstein clearly showed

Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

I like the gesture of these works... that our apprehension of systems is somehow the modulation of our coupling with them at different frequencies (and thus scales)...   which is not the same as simply "filtering" It does seem as if "thinking" in it's broadest sense is a form of coupling one's (so

Re: [FRIAM] Kill it!

Having pets I adore and also seeing the reality of feral cats, it is hard not to see humans through a similar lens. From: Friam On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 10:01 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Kill it! Culling is eas

Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

uǝlƃ ☤>$ > Ouch! Dude. No! 8^D You're committing the same sin Nick commits. I understand that I was being provocative with the specific formulation "we ARE" as if it were an absolute. > To say we "are" our emotions ignores the composition, the algebra by which > parts compose the whole. I agree a

Re: [FRIAM] Kill it!

Culling is easy, and they are delicious! Kung Pao Meow! On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 10:23 AM Marcus Daniels wrote: > I have seen what happens when ferals proliferate. Out in the country it > is common to have a few non-domesticated cats around, but they can > proliferate amongst households. Look

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

I addressed the stupid people vs stupid acts. Dave makes that conflation. I don't. But re: punishment - I also never claimed stupidity should be punished. I claimed stupidity should be painful. As a person who inflicts pain on myself daily, on purpose, it would be silly to identify pain with pu

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Glen, I bow to your greater experience. Anybody who can hang into a conversation about vaccines while being spittled at is made of sturner stuff than I. If nothing else, the irony would kill me. Nick Nick Thompson thompnicks...@gmail.com https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -Orig

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

I'm fairly certain *I* never called any person stupid. I don't even think anti-vaxxers are stupid people just because the thoughts they're thinking, and their lack of action is stupid. That Dave conflates calling an anti-vaxer stupid vs. calling an anti-vaxxer's anti-vax stance stupid, indicates

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Glen, It would be good to make a distinction between "punishment" and "self-preservation". There is something incoherent about asserting that stupid people need to be punished, because one of the salient features of stupidity is an inability to learn from experience. Also, don't we need t

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

I agree, Dave, that calling other people stupid is stupid, even though it is deeply satisfying and great for organizing lynch parties. Nick Nick Thompson thompnicks...@gmail.com https://wordpress.clarku.edu/n

Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

I hope EricC picks this up. He has been too absent lately. Damn him for having gotten an interesting job. I guess I think in levels of organization, and my rants are always of the form, Grant Each Level Its Due and Do Not Confuse Them. So you can discuss the amygdala all you want, but yo

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Anti-vax needs a justification that can survive peer review. Because Tucker said so and I have a right to my liberty, etc. is not a justification.One might be a concern about inflammation.The vaccine will stimulate IGG-M production which could exacerbate some auto-immune conditions, an

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

I am reading "The Origins of Political Order" from Francis Fukuyama at the moment and one thing I noticed is that the 4 classes from India's caste system actually represent the division into religion (Brahmins, priestly class), military (Kshatriyas, warrior class), economy (Vaishyas, merchant cl

Re: [FRIAM] Kill it!

Glen - Great reflection on domesticated cats... I have had a lifetime relationship with both cats and dogs myself.   As a child, I believed *all* cats were female and most dogs were male.   This was because the rural context I lived in, the male cats roamed freely and likely were "thinned" heavil

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

I suppose it all depends on what "anti-vax" means, eh? If you take "anti-vax" to mean a kind of nihilistic "who cares?", then no. If you take "anti-vax" to mean "the spike protein made by the body in response to the mRNA vaccines is toxic", then yes. If you take "anti-vax" to mean "the vaccines

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Glen stated:* "Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful."* Is it correct to interpret this statement: anti-vax equates to stupidity in all cases without exception? Such an interpretation would certainly be consistent with the prevailing rhetoric. And it very clearly delineates two groups:

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Sarbajit, Are you familiar with CASTE ? The book, not the institution. No particular reason, except that if you were, it would provide us with a joint context. I am thinking that the closest equivalent

Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

Very nice! What I keep *wanting* to hear from Nick or EricC is a mechanism by which very tiny, very fast processes inside the body interact with very tiny, very fast processes outside the body. I.e. a demonstration (or simply rhetoric) of membrane openness (permeability, lack of closure). I.e. n

Re: [FRIAM] Kill it!

I have seen what happens when ferals proliferate. Out in the country it is common to have a few non-domesticated cats around, but they can proliferate amongst households. Look out the window, there is some hunt that is on. Culling is easy though. > On Aug 26, 2021, at 7:08 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wr

Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

Sally is a masochist. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, 9:09 AM wrote: > Hmmm! Interesting, Steve. Should I prefer "is" to "does"? That certainly > ==> is <== his fearfulness. > > Nick Thompson > thompnicks...@gmail.

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Sarbajit - I've been hoping to hear from you on this topic during this time.  One of the things I most value about this list is the wide geographical distribution of our members, not to mention the handful of cultural outliers such as yourself.   Your own unique positioning in the sociopolitical/t

Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

Hmmm! Interesting, Steve. Should I prefer "is" to "does"? That certainly ==> is <== his fearfulness. Nick Thompson thompnicks...@gmail.com https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -Original Message- From: Friam On Behalf Of Steve Smith Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 10:50 AM To: fria

Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

Bucky Fuller on apprehension / comprehension of systems: http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s05/figs/f0901.html We ignore larger / slower frequencies. We also ignore smaller / faster frequencies. http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s05/p0600.html#509.01 Curt On Thu, Aug 2

[FRIAM] what is a "clowder" - Google Search

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d &q=what+is+a+%22clowder%22 Gosh, Glen. Great word, great story. nick - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group lists

Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

Ouch! Dude. No! 8^D You're committing the same sin Nick commits. To say we "are" our emotions ignores the composition, the algebra by which parts compose the whole. The point is the very high order conscious *attention* to lower order frequencies. Not all is one. There are many parts to organiz

Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

> E.g. when Bob wakes up startled, he interprets the situation into "fear". > But when Sally wakes up startled, she interprets the situation into > "excitement" or some other /a priori/, socially limiting, filter category. Thus my earlier suggestion that "we" "are" our emotions?   Bob *is* his

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Pieter It *was* very bad, but it seems that with 70% of the population having being infected , some kind of herd immunity prevails, at least for now. https://theprint.in/health/4th-sero-survey-finds-2-of-3-indians-with-covid-antibodies-but-still-avoid-crowds-icmr-warns/699600/ On Thu, Aug 26, 202

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Any place but the ER is irrelevant. Other paths to hospital inpatient or PT/allergy/optha clinics *should* require proof of vax or PCR test results. I agree. Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful. But re: ER, I disagree. It's impractical to the point of silliness. On 8/25/21 10:56 AM, Ma

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Insurers to the rescue? https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/08/covid-costs-billions-so-delta-to-charge-unvaxxed-airline-workers-200-month/ On Aug 26, 2021, at 2:13 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:  Thanks for the reply Sarbajit, so what you're saying is the situation is much worse in India than

Re: [FRIAM] Kill it!

So, a wildlife ecologist friend of mine (who meatspace introduced me to Looney (WSDA employee who discovered murder hornets here (who also hangs at the local pub) [‡])) argues that domestic cats, as an invasive species, are more horrifying than murder hornets, or english ivy, or the new zealand

Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

Great contribution, Roger! The article targets composition that's severely lacking in our discussions each time they pop up. Here are the bullets I pull from it, caveat confirmation bias: • clustering induction (model-free) as agnostic concept registration • "The amygdala, on the other hand, is

Re: [FRIAM] Kill it!

If there are really ‘fashion police’ they will squash it. Really, red with black stripes and dots! —Barry On 24 Aug 2021, at 10:44, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote: ‘Kill it!’ US officials advise no mercy for lanternfly summer invasion Am I so wrong to root for the bad guy? ... such a good lookin' bug. --

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Thanks for the reply Sarbajit, so what you're saying is the situation is much worse in India than what the official numbers indicate. Pieter On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 at 10:48, Sarbajit Roy wrote: > I can give you some more context citing my personal experience > > I stay in a spacious (for India) ga

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

I can give you some more context citing my personal experience I stay in a spacious (for India) gated-off apartment complex in New Delhi, with 90 apartments and about 400 residents. About 25% of the apartments have retired doctors from India's premier hospitals, and we're mostly educated professio

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Pieter The official statistics for India are quite (grossly) inaccurate. We can *conservatively* multiply the number of infections by x10 and the number of deaths by x3. While the statistics are comparatively better maintained in the urban areas, in the rural areas there is massive under-reporting

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Sarbajit, When covid started I was very worried about India with it's high population density. But according to https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries the deaths/1M population in India is 313. In the USA, for example, the figure is 1950 deaths/1M population. Further, according to ht