Sarbajit -
I've been hoping to hear from you on this topic during this time. One
of the things I most value about this list is the wide geographical
distribution of our members, not to mention the handful of cultural
outliers such as yourself. Your own unique positioning in the
sociopolitical/technical spectrum seems often to provide some useful
parallax to us (mostly old white men from wealthy anglophone countries).
You once before invoked your Adi Brahmin heritage/practice during a
discussion I think of the widespread genetic contribution of Ghengis
Khan.
I appreciate the care with which you have introduced these facts and
perspectives into a larger culture (well, maybe not larger, but a tiny
sliver of a larger culture) which finds them somewhat antithetical (i.e.
politically incorrect).
If I understand your points from both discussions correctly:
1. Genetic "purity" (a Western description) is important to your
religious/cultural group and it is maintained through myriad
practices that the West often finds "backward" or "wrongheaded".
2. Microorganismal/biome health is also maintained by myriad practices
that the West may find ... etc. Untouchability (which, like Nick,
I have only the most superficial awareness of) and the kinds of
in-group isolation that I presume are almost impossible to maintain
without elite status in a context such as modern India (perhaps
anywhere?)
I'm not trying to instigate an argument among us over this point, just
framing it as best I can, and trying to open a larger discussion about
the question of socio-cultural-spiritually practices and how well
subsets of a continuously globalizing humanity can maintain internal
coherence whilst engaging with the larger "homogenizing"? group.
I might also highlight DaveW's contribution to the Ghengis Khan
discussion that "normalized" what most (all?) of us would call rape in
the context of the Mongol conquests (and perhaps warfare of all kinds
over millenia?). Similarly, DaveW's unique (I think to this group)
positioning as having born and raised within the Latter Day Saints
subculture of rural Utah which carries it's own unique practices (some
extant, others mostly vestigal) around a particular style of Patriarchy
(including Polygamy).
Pieter brings us the perspective of a professional class South African
which seems to have it's own uniquely asqew (I don't mean this
perjoratively) basis space of assumptions, values, judgements.
I realize I am probably fumble/mumble/bumbling all this to the point
that the discussion I'm hoping to provoke will not happen, but I felt
your uniquely *oblique* POV in this might be a good opportunity to try
to stimulate this discussion (yet again).
- Steve
On 8/26/21 2:47 AM, Sarbajit Roy wrote:
> I can give you some more context citing my personal experience
>
> I stay in a spacious (for India) gated-off apartment complex in New
> Delhi, with 90 apartments and about 400 residents. About 25% of the
> apartments have retired doctors from India's premier hospitals, and
> we're mostly educated professionals well clued in to take precautions..
>
> In the first COVID wave which peaked in Sept 2020 we had 2 infections
> and no deaths. In the second wave which peaked in May 2021, we had
> about 75 known infections (of which 25 needed hospitalization) and 8
> COVID deaths in my apartment complex alone. Similar numbers happened
> in the surrounding apartment complexes. My father-in-law who stays in
> a similar apartment complex a mile away was hospitalised for 10 days
> with COVID this May at the peak but luckily pulled through at age 82
> years. He only got a hospital bed because he was Indian Army while
> other patients were being turned away in droves before my eyes.
>
> Sarbajit
>
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 1:56 PM Sarbajit Roy <sroy...@gmail.com
> <mailto:sroy...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Pieter
>
> The official statistics for India are quite (grossly) inaccurate.
> We can *conservatively* multiply the number of infections by x10
> and the number of deaths by x3.
> While the statistics are comparatively better maintained in the
> urban areas, in the rural areas there is massive under-reporting
> and people were dying like flies.
> There is inadequate testing capacity and health infrastructure in
> the rural areas and we estimate the death rate at between 6% to
> 12% of the population in certain states.
>
> My own uncle, a retired Indian Army doctor aged about 81 years,
> was the only doctor left for a radius of 100 km in a densely
> populated state because the regular doctors hadeither fled or died
> of COVID. He expired 2 months ago, of COVID, while still in the
> saddle attending patients.
>
> Sarbajit
>
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 12:31 PM Pieter Steenekamp
> <piet...@randcontrols.co.za <mailto:piet...@randcontrols.co.za>>
> wrote:
>
> Sarbajit,
>
> When covid started I was very worried about India with it's
> high population density. But according
> to https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
> <https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries> the
> deaths/1M population in India is 313. In the USA, for example,
> the figure is 1950 deaths/1M population.
>
> Further, according
> to https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/
> <https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/>
> India seems to be dodging the delta variant, because the daily
> new cases has been dropping since May and seems to be staying
> low.
>
> My point is, India seems to be doing relatively less bad than
> many other countries.
>
> Then, there seems to be relatively high prophylactic and early
> treatment use of ivermectin in India.
> Refer to:
>
> https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/lucknow/uttar-pradesh-government-says-ivermectin-helped-to-keep-deaths-low-7311786/
>
> <https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/lucknow/uttar-pradesh-government-says-ivermectin-helped-to-keep-deaths-low-7311786/>
>
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2021/05/11/indian-state-will-offer-ivermectin-to-entire-adult-population---even-as-who-warns-against-its-use-as-covid-19-treatment/?sh=18acd8956d9f
>
> <https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2021/05/11/indian-state-will-offer-ivermectin-to-entire-adult-population---even-as-who-warns-against-its-use-as-covid-19-treatment/?sh=18acd8956d9f>
>
> https://covid19criticalcare.com/ivermectin-in-covid-19/epidemiologic-analyses-on-covid19-and-ivermectin/
>
> <https://covid19criticalcare.com/ivermectin-in-covid-19/epidemiologic-analyses-on-covid19-and-ivermectin/>
>
> https://www.thedesertreview.com/opinion/columnists/indias-ivermectin-blackout---part-iii-the-lesson-of-kerala/article_ccecb97e-044e-11ec-9112-2b31ae87887a.html
>
> <https://www.thedesertreview.com/opinion/columnists/indias-ivermectin-blackout---part-iii-the-lesson-of-kerala/article_ccecb97e-044e-11ec-9112-2b31ae87887a.html>
>
> I'd like to have your views on this. Is there a possible
> causal link between the use of ivermectin and low new covid
> infections in India?
>
> Pieter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 at 04:42, Sarbajit Roy <sroy...@gmail.com
> <mailto:sroy...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> I would like to give you an "Asian" (perhaps culturally
> distasteful) perspective on this from India.
>
> India has (officially) the 2nd highest number of COVID-19
> infections and deaths after the USA.
>
> However, within India, there is a small class of people,
> like me, called Adi Brahmins .. it's a Hindu caste, who
> don't wear masks or take clinically unproven or untested
> vaccinations, mainly because we continually practice an
> ancient non-contact system known as UNTOUCHABILITY. Since
> Brahmins are traditionally the scientific / intellectual
> elite of India, we have known about virii, fomites, their
> modes of transmission, and how they cause infection and
> disease for centuries and we knew this empirically even
> before microscopes were invented.
>
> The rules and concepts of untouchability are drilled into
> Brahmin children from infancy, and we practice it
> scrupulously even if it is banned by law in India. And
> it's not as if we dont believe in Western medicine systems
> or science, I was drilled by my grandfather who was the
> Director General of India's Armed Forces ( .. aka Surgeon
> General of India), to the extent that even the metal
> cutlery at his dining table was "autoclaved" before we
> used them.
>
> The people who are contracting and dying of COVID in India
> are the ones who are fated to do so because of their own
> foolishness and ignorance, and also because India's
> government wanted them to die.
> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57005563
> <https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57005563>
>
> Sarbajit Roy
> New Delhi, India
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 4:31 AM Gillian Densmore
> <gil.densm...@gmail.com <mailto:gil.densm...@gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> Pieter: YES! thats what I was trying to ask.
> Personally I think the science and tech around
> Vaccinations just rocks. On the human side: It is
> amazingly cool what people can do what we decide to do so.
> you bring up a good point! I watched youtube videos
> from people that made the vaccines. LOL I did need to
> try to ask for a translation on what it meant to map
> the genetics. RNA. mRNA. And when I learned how safe
> the vaccine was. Then I decided I couldn't get in line
> fast enough. It sounds like that's the opposite what
> some people are doing. It sounds like the hear: this
> was made using new medical technology, that hasn't
> neneded to be tested outside of labs until now. So
> they basically heard Fear And Doubt. Which is a shame.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels
> <mar...@snoutfarm.com <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>>
> wrote:
>
> They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient
> capacity, or they'd have sufficient capacity.
> Through a triage process they can prioritize.
> It must happen already, even if it isn't legal.
> Oh, the local drug addict is here again. That guy
> is probably not #1 for the attention of the
> doctors. If enough big organizations like
> hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply refuse to
> patronize people without evidence of vaccination,
> there doesn't need to be a mandate. And it isn't
> just ERs, there are people getting allergy shots,
> getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted,
> etc. No shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com
> <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of
> u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>
> That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the
> ER, the vaccine is largely irrelevant. Plus, when
> some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a
> gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's
> been vaccinated or not.
>
> Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate
> to treat whoever walks in the door, even if they
> don't have insurance. To make the change you
> suggest would require major legislative effort
> and, perhaps, re-architect the laws that govern
> public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime
> soon.
>
> Taking a look at this site:
>
> https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours
>
> <https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours>
> it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually
> lower than I thought. The actual problem is
> insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in
> covid patients. The covid patients are simply
> demonstrating the problem.
>
>
> On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> > Will you consent to a vaccine?
> >
> > Yes: You get treatment for your non-COVID
> condition. No: Get lost.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com
> <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of
> u?l? ?>$
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM
> > To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com>
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> >
> > Because the majority of the patients in the ERs
> are not covid patients. (Last I heard the
> percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But
> I'm sure it's location dependent.) They're regular
> people with regular problems, many of whom delayed
> medical treatments for a year due to lockdowns. We
> did a little too much "just in time" logistical
> planning with our hospitals and this fairly tiny
> bump is demonstrating that our buffer wasn't high
> enough.
> >
> > The smart thing to do is increase capacity,
> correct the buffer size, and take care of both
> covid patients and regular people.
> >
> >
> > On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> >> Why should we increase the capacity of the
> hospitals? Just don't let them in.
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com
> <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of
> u?l? ?>$
> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM
> >> To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> >>
> >> Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of
> it. If it's a normal, everyday thing, yeah sure.
> But if it's some litmus test for who's with us or
> who's against us, then they're much less willing
> to submit to such tests.
> >>
> >> You see this in spades w.r.t. to the protests.
> In Portland, they antifa are rigorous about
> staging counter protests, which makes the fascists
> dig in and be more committed to protesting, which
> makes the antifa more committed, ad infinitum.
> Here in Olympia, it's mostly just the fascists out
> there protesting mask and vaccine mandates. (Yes,
> irony is dead.) But as a result, they're
> anticlimactic and peter out pretty comfortably.
> >>
> >> Along the same lines of "don't feed the troll",
> if we focused our attention on increasing the
> capacities of hospitals rather than brow beating
> the anti-vaxers, I suspect the vax rate would
> climb steadily and the reactionary tendencies of
> the anti-vaxers would abate.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 8/25/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> >>> These same people are willing to submit to an
> employer's drug tests.
>
>
> --
> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
>
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