On Jul 2, 10:30 am, James Keats wrote:
> What is actually there in his posts in that thread?! blatherings and
> generalities about "community" and "attitude" and language "economics"
> and "marketing" that any kid high on weed who'd read a post too many
> on reddit's /r/programming could've wro
On Jul 17, 6:43 pm, javajosh wrote:
> On Jul 8, 8:37 pm, Christian Marks <9fv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The moral of this story is: don't let anyone clip your wings.
>
> Well said. That is my take away too. It is surprising how to me how
> much weight people give to the assertions of others, fa
Thanks.
On Jul 17, 5:52 pm, Sean Corfield wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 10:59 AM, octopusgrabbus
>
> wrote:
> > Are Steve Yegge's comments blogged/written anywhere?
>
> Googling is your friend -- search for:
>
> steve yegge clojure yes language
>
> and it turns up the original thread as t
On Jul 8, 8:37 pm, Christian Marks <9fv...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The moral of this story is: don't let anyone clip your wings.
Well said. That is my take away too. It is surprising how to me how
much weight people give to the assertions of others, famous or not. In
truth, this human endeavor of prog
On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 10:59 AM, octopusgrabbus
wrote:
> Are Steve Yegge's comments blogged/written anywhere?
Googling is your friend -- search for:
steve yegge clojure yes language
and it turns up the original thread as the second result:
http://groups.google.com/group/seajure/browse_thr
Are Steve Yegge's comments blogged/written anywhere?
The last post I could find on his blog http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/
was about Haskel and written 12/1/2010.
Thanks.
cmn
On Jul 1, 3:59 pm, James Keats wrote:
> Hi all. I've been looking at Clojure for the past month, having had a
> previo
On Jul 7, 4:58 pm, James Keats wrote:
> For people's sense of sanity, it's not wise to try to run before you
> walk. ... But fine, people are free to be impatient and get
> frustrated and depressed if they so insist.
I must respectfully disagree. I was interested in learning Clojure,
and decid
On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 10:28 PM, Lee Spector wrote:
>
> On Jul 8, 2011, at 12:38 PM, Vivek Khurana wrote:
>
>> That is still not as easy as python. Running VM is a bigger overhead...
>
> There are different kinds of overhead. If the installation and setup of the
> VM is simple and bullet proof th
On Jul 8, 2011, at 7:13 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
>
> My concern there is with newbies just getting their feet wet in
> Clojure needing to hack a Clojure file in order to start learning how
> to hack Clojure files. :)
Yeah, but it's a minimal "copy this line and your library name goes here" kind
of
2011/7/9 Ken Wesson
> Leiningen is a script, and I thought it might be a Python script.
>
> On Windows, the interpreter won't typically already be installed
> anyway -- at least, you can't count on it.
>
Ken,
Leiningen is not just a script. It is a Clojure application with a script
that makes i
On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 7:18 PM, Michael Klishin
wrote:
> 2011/7/9 Ken Wesson
>>
>> e.g. Python interpreter
>
> Sorry, why does "Clojure starter kit" need to embed Python? I couldn't
> figure it out from
> a few recent posts.
Leiningen is a script, and I thought it might be a Python script.
On W
2011/7/9 Ken Wesson
> e.g. Python interpreter
Sorry, why does "Clojure starter kit" need to embed Python? I couldn't
figure it out from
a few recent posts.
--
MK
http://github.com/michaelklishin
http://twitter.com/michaelklishin
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On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Lee Spector wrote:
> I think I said recently that several setups are about 95% the way to being
> newbie-friendly, and while the missing 5% for emacs/lein is mostly in
> installation/configuration the missing 5% for Eclipse is in project
> management.
People hav
On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 3:30 PM, James Keats wrote:
> May I also add that I found remapping some keyboard keys quite useful
> for a sane emacs lisp editing experience. It gives me 3 ctrl keys on
> the right and 3 ctrl keys on the left so I could basically use any of
> my fingers, pinky to thumb, fo
On Jul 8, 2011, at 6:23 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
> If you download and install Eclipse or NetBeans they will install a
> JDK by default, and if you then use their internal plugin browsers to
> find and install CCW resp. Enclojure, they will install Clojure 1.2.0
> (last time I checked) for you and se
On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 2:23 PM, nchubrich wrote:
>> Read my blog post (written a year ago; updated several times to ensure
>> it works with newer versions of Clojure and Leiningen):
>
>> http://corfield.org/blog/post.cfm/getting-started-with-clojure
>
>> Now replace clojure.org/getting_started wit
On Jul 8, 2011, at 3:30 PM, James Keats wrote:
> Sam Aaron's emacs setup with cake's swank is really really nice. It
> could possibly be combined with a cheatsheet for emacs' most needed
> keyboard shortcuts.
inc!
> May I also add that I found remapping some keyboard keys quite useful
I'd perso
On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Vivek Khurana wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 9:47 PM, Phil Hagelberg wrote:
>
>> Have you tried the Vagrant approach? It's a one-button
>> Emacs/Clojure/Leiningen hacking VM setup[1]:
>>
>> https://github.com/Seajure/emacs-clojure-vagrant
>>
>> -Phil
>>
>> [1] -
On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 12:02 PM, Timothy Baldridge wrote:
> As a quick compare...
> Python:
> python->pygame
> Clojure:
> JDK->lein->clojure->penumbra
If you download and install Eclipse or NetBeans they will install a
JDK by default, and if you then use their internal plugin browsers to
find and
On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 11:46 AM, Jonathan Fischer Friberg
wrote:
> You probably don't mean an actual "hello world" program, but let's compare
> them anyway.
>
> python:
> print "hello world"
>
> clojure:
> (print "hello world")
>
> Not that much harder, is it?
And probably slightly *easier* than
On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 11:50 AM, Stuart Halloway
wrote:
> Here's a possible plan:
> 1. Core will produce a smaller, up-to-date page
> for clojure.org/getting_started. This page will do less, and will link out
> prominently to the contributor wiki. Turnaround time on this: probably not
> before the
On Jul 8, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Phil Hagelberg wrote:
>
> Maybe a "troubleshooting" section at the bottom of the readme? Sounds
> good to me; feel free to issue a pull request.
I don't have the expertise to write such a thing.
In other news, I've now done "vagrant up" in the directory containing th
On Jul 8, 8:02 pm, Lee Spector wrote:
>
> I'm with you 95% here, but I do think that this much editor "fanciness" is
> needed to have a sane environment for coding lisp for anything more than a
> few minutes: bracket-matching and language-aware auto-re-indenting. If
> there's a straightforwar
On Jul 8, 2011, at 2:13 PM, Sean Corfield wrote:
> Now replace clojure.org/getting_started with something like that and I
> think most of the complaints would go away. No one needs a fancy
> editor / IDE setup to use Clojure - the key is just getting it
> installed and then a REPL to experiment an
Lee Spector writes:
> Thanks so much. I've now successfully upgraded rubygems and completed
> the "sudo gem install vagrant" step without error.
>
> I will take the next steps shortly.
>
> Is this an okay place to make suggestions about the vagrant readme? In
> addition to adding "sudo" I would s
Mailing my contributor agreement today so I can helpreally
excited!
May I just add that at the same level of prominence after the "no
decisions" beginner path, we might also put a tutorial on Web (via
Noir, perhaps?) and Incanter development? Those are two amazing
applications of Clojurel
>> Read my blog post (written a year ago; updated several times to ensure
>> it works with newer versions of Clojure and Leiningen):
>
>> http://corfield.org/blog/post.cfm/getting-started-with-clojure
>
>> Now replace clojure.org/getting_started with something like that and I
>> think most of the
> > I think we need to be careful here about the association between Java
> > and Clojure. Sure, they run on the JVM, but that is their *only*
> > relationship (from a consumer's point of view) as far as I can see.
> Clojure != Java - different paradigms, different mindsets, different
> beasts
If it weren't for McDonalds I wouldn't have such a large belly, but my
belly isn't McDonalds ;) I jest (obviously!), but I do think this is
a fundamental point. I (like a lot of others I expect) found Clojure
and Scala whilst looking for Java.next. I read a bit about Scala, and
part of its marke
On Jul 8, 2011, at 1:24 PM, Michael Klishin wrote:
>
> what does gem --version output?
It was 1.3.5.
>
> To upgrade rubygems, use
>
> [sudo] gem update --system
Thanks so much. I've now successfully upgraded rubygems and completed the "sudo
gem install vagrant" step without error.
I will
> Read my blog post (written a year ago; updated several times to ensure
> it works with newer versions of Clojure and Leiningen):
> http://corfield.org/blog/post.cfm/getting-started-with-clojure
> Now replace clojure.org/getting_started with something like that and I
> think most of the complain
I don't agree that clojure is, or should be seen as something entirely
different than java. If it weren't for java, clojure wouldn't have much use
at all.
When it comes to IDEs, I agree. I write all code in vim (for editing only),
and do the rest from the command line (meaning mostly leiningen). I
On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 7:29 AM, James Keats wrote:
> - If you're new to programming, clojure will overwhelm you. Start with
> something like python.
Totally disagree. Lisps have been many people's first introduction to
programming over several decades and it works extremely well as an
introductor
On Jul 8, 4:30 pm, Lee Spector wrote:
> On Jul 8, 2011, at 10:29 AM, James Keats wrote:
>
> > May I also add the following caveat emptors:
> > - If you're new to programming, clojure will overwhelm you. Start with
> > something like python.
>
> I disagree. This is a subject of religious debates
I think we need to be careful here about the association between Java
and Clojure. Sure, they run on the JVM, but that is their *only*
relationship (from a consumer's point of view) as far as I can see.
For me, after a decade+ of developing Enterprise Java (primarily web)
applications I am sick a
2011/7/8 Lee Spector
> ERROR: Error installing vagrant:
>thor requires RubyGems version >= 1.3.6
>
> So I guess I need to track that down...
what does gem --version output?
To upgrade rubygems, use
[sudo] gem update --system
--
MK
http://github.com/michaelklishin
http://twitter.co
On Jul 8, 2011, at 1:02 PM, Jonathan Fischer Friberg wrote:
> It looks like you haven't got enough privileges, try "sudo gem install
> vagrant"
Thanks. That solved some of the problems (and I would suggest that sudo be
added to the vagrant readme instructions) but I still get:
ERROR: Error i
It looks like you haven't got enough privileges, try "sudo gem install
vagrant"
Jonathan
On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 6:58 PM, Lee Spector wrote:
>
> On Jul 8, 2011, at 12:38 PM, Vivek Khurana wrote:
>
> > That is still not as easy as python. Running VM is a bigger overhead...
>
> There are different
On Jul 8, 2011, at 12:38 PM, Vivek Khurana wrote:
> That is still not as easy as python. Running VM is a bigger overhead...
There are different kinds of overhead. If the installation and setup of the VM
is simple and bullet proof then this is acceptable overhead for me.
On the other hand I jus
On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 9:47 PM, Phil Hagelberg wrote:
>
> Have you tried the Vagrant approach? It's a one-button
> Emacs/Clojure/Leiningen hacking VM setup[1]:
>
> https://github.com/Seajure/emacs-clojure-vagrant
>
> -Phil
>
> [1] - provided you have virtualbox.
That is still not as easy as pyt
On Jul 8, 2011, at 12:17 PM, Phil Hagelberg wrote:
>
> Have you tried the Vagrant approach? It's a one-button
> Emacs/Clojure/Leiningen hacking VM setup[1]:
I haven't, although I've been watching the list traffic on this. Now I see that
I must. I will!
Thanks,
-Lee
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Lee Spector writes:
> On Jul 8, 2011, at 2:39 AM, Ken Wesson wrote:
>>
>>> (with the downside of the emacs interface learning curve, to whatever
>>> extent that can't be addressed via configuration)
>>
>> That's not a "downside", that's a pit full of sharks with lasers on
>> their heads, at le
> I disagree. This is a subject of religious debates that I don't want to get
> into in detail, but FWIW this educator thinks that Lisp is a >perfectly
> defensible first language and that Clojure can serve the purpose quite well
> as long as installation and tooling doesn't make it ?unnecessari
On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 4:29 PM, James Keats wrote:
> May I also add the following caveat emptors:
> - If you're new to programming, clojure will overwhelm you. Start with
> something like python.
>
I think most programming languages overwhelm you if you don't have any prior
experience. I started
On Jul 8, 2011, at 10:29 AM, James Keats wrote:
> May I also add the following caveat emptors:
> - If you're new to programming, clojure will overwhelm you. Start with
> something like python.
I disagree. This is a subject of religious debates that I don't want to get
into in detail, but FWIW th
>>do not
>>expect to start "hacking" clojure in the morning and be "productive"
>>and accomplishing work in the afternoon of that same day
reality is cruel: http://norvig.com/21-days.html
but fair ... isn't it ?
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On Jul 8, 6:19 am, Ken Wesson wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 1:07 AM, Lee Spector wrote:
>
> > On Jul 7, 2011, at 7:29 PM, Sean Corfield wrote:
> >> And yet the #1 "FAQ" we see on lists and reflected in blog posts is
> >> about getting Clojure up and running... We see Java developers,
> >> com
On Jul 8, 2011, at 2:39 AM, Ken Wesson wrote:
>
>> (with the downside of the emacs interface learning curve, to whatever extent
>> that can't be addressed via configuration)
>
> That's not a "downside", that's a pit full of sharks with lasers on
> their heads, at least from your hypothetical ne
Disclosure: I only began learning/setting up Clojure about a week ago...
Despite putting a relatively sizeable chunk of time into it, I still don't
have what I would consider a pleasant working environment...
How about:
>
> GETTING STARTED
> snip
This would have been great - one canonical source
On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 2:19 AM, Lee Spector wrote:
> Certainly true, and this is one of the other reasons that I taught with
> Eclipse/CCW rather than an emacs setup last year. But with a well-configured
> modern emacs some of this can be ameliorated; e.g. there are Mac versions in
> which you
On Jul 8, 2011, at 1:19 AM, Ken Wesson wrote:
>
> If your programming experience lies elsewhere, or you're new to
> programming altogether, _insert something here_.
>
> The last one is maybe the trickiest. Best might be a good text editor
> for programming that isn't Emacs, combined with leining
On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 1:07 AM, Lee Spector wrote:
>
> On Jul 7, 2011, at 7:29 PM, Sean Corfield wrote:
>> And yet the #1 "FAQ" we see on lists and reflected in blog posts is
>> about getting Clojure up and running... We see Java developers,
>> committed to their favorite IDE, still asking "Should
On Jul 7, 2011, at 7:29 PM, Sean Corfield wrote:
> And yet the #1 "FAQ" we see on lists and reflected in blog posts is
> about getting Clojure up and running... We see Java developers,
> committed to their favorite IDE, still asking "Should I install /
> learn Emacs?" We see old-time Lispers, happ
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 2:37 PM, Meikel Brandmeyer wrote:
> I'm always bewildered by this argument. What has a newbie to choose here? Of
> course he uses what he's used to. Many Java devs probably want one of the
> IDEs they already know. Old-time Lispers use emacs.
And yet the #1 "FAQ" we see o
> I'm always bewildered by this argument. What has a newbie to choose here? Of
> course he uses what he's used to. Many Java devs probably want one of the
> IDEs they already know. Old-time Lispers use emacs.
I think it's a question of style and how to present the information
(which is why it wo
Hi,
Am 07.07.2011 um 21:54 schrieb Sean Corfield:
> I think one sticking point here is that there are (so far) seven
> IDEs/editors listed and five build tools. For a n00b, that's too much
> choice.
I'm always bewildered by this argument. What has a newbie to choose here? Of
course he uses what
On Jul 7, 8:35 pm, nchubrich wrote
> > someone whose name I can't remember right now
> > once said, "There are no bad students, only bad teachers."
There are three good books already and more on the way (I look forward
to Clojure in Action later this month), there are excellent videos on
bli
Stu---
Thanks for the links. I took a look at clojure dev and signed up. I
don't see any way to editdoes that happen after I mail in the
Contributor agreement? It does seem a little medieval to have to mail
it in.
Clojure dev though doesn't seem like such a direct way of improving
clojure.
On Jul 7, 8:03 pm, logan wrote:
>
> This poisonous attitude is perfectly exemplified in this thread by
> James Keats.
I completely disagree with your mis-characterization and invite you to
read again what I had maintained:
- I had implored that technical arguments alone should decide
technical
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 6:12 AM, Stuart Halloway
wrote:
> (1) Edit and improve the official
> docs: http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Getting+Started
I think one sticking point here is that there are (so far) seven
IDEs/editors listed and five build tools. For a n00b, that's too much
choice. Ther
Thank you, Logan, you put it very well. You're absolutely right there
can be an inherent instinct against user-friendliness in open-source
software, as well as a kind of hierarchyand you've identified the
source and nature of it, I think. The response to this is not to try
to become commercia
I think Yegge clarified in a follow-up post that what he really meant
to say was "say yes to USERS", not "say yes to FEATURES", but in his
typical off-the-cuff ranty writing style, he had accidentally
conflated the two.
As far as saying yes to every feature, I think that is obviously not a
great i
On Jul 6, 2011, at 10:06 PM, nchubrich wrote:
> And as to improving
> documentation, how is one to go about doing it? This would be an
> excellent area to have some community effort on, especially from
> relative beginners, and that is an itch I would not mind scratching.
Stuart Halloway respo
> For instance, a little while ago I was corresponding with someone who
> had released a patch to Clojure. (This was Alyssa Kwan, in case you
> want to look up the thread.) Her patch made refs persistent to
> disksomething that seemed very much in the spirit of Clojure.
> Dealing with disk pe
On Jul 7, 8:09 am, nchubrich wrote
>
> (As for Steve Yeggeis he reading all this?if he's totally
> wrong, then of course people should feel free to disagree with him,
> and forget about the consequences. But if he happens to be \right,
> and I do think he mostly is, then making basicall
On Jul 7, 6:42 am, nchubrich wrote:
> I'll try :) It was really a polemical post for a polemical thread,
> but my main points can be extracted here. Feel free to read as many
> or as few of them as you are inclined
nchubrich, I've read your original post in its entirely, so forgive me
for not
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 1:42 AM, nchubrich wrote:
> ...
>
> * It also can do a better job of attracting and retaining core
> contributors. I cited an example of someone who posted a patch to
> make refs persistent. She ended up being ignored, and left for
> Erlang. But Clojure needs people like
> It may be that I am really talking about the website (clojure.org, not
> any of the auxiliary ones, which are a bit of a mess in themselves)
> more than the language itself. If people receive the \right
> instructions, setting up Emacs/Leiningen/Web servers etc. is actually
> not so hard. The t
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 7:42 AM, nchubrich wrote:
> * Since Lisp is highly extensible, in the long run being
> 'prescriptive' is a losing battle. It is better to eventually add
> standard 'bad' features to the language than to tempt third parties to
> do it in even worse and incompatible ways.
>
> I think we need to nail the intro / setup experience and I'm nailing
> my colors to Leiningen. I think that needs to be adopted as the
> default, standard way to get up and running on Clojure and all the
> official tutorials need to be updated to reflect that.
I think getting an experienced Clo
@nchubrich
> It did go on too long. I hope when someone \does read it, they will
> see I am not being wholly unreasonable.
i liked to read through it anyway ...
>>I was drawn to Clojure because I felt it was another
>>evolutionary step in programming. I hope I am not wrong.
i feel and hop
Much better. Now I can read it and see your points... and respond...
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 10:42 PM, nchubrich wrote:
> * Clojure still ends up turning off new users more than it needs to.
I think we need to nail the intro / setup experience and I'm nailing
my colors to Leiningen. I think that
I'll try :) It was really a polemical post for a polemical thread,
but my main points can be extracted here. Feel free to read as many
or as few of them as you are inclined:
* Clojure still ends up turning off new users more than it needs to.
This may be partly an issue of priorities (see the Ge
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
> Does the term "tl;dr" mean anything to you?
I'll remember this date - I find myself really liking / agreeing with
one of Ken's posts :)
Sorry nchubrich but that really was far too long - I started reading
but couldn't find any meat in the first
And I thought my posts were long :)
Luc P.
On Wed, 6 Jul 2011 19:26:04 -0700 (PDT)
nchubrich wrote:
> It did go on too long. I hope when someone \does read it, they will
> see I am not being wholly unreasonable.
>
> On Jul 6, 7:21 pm, Ken Wesson wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 10:0
It did go on too long. I hope when someone \does read it, they will
see I am not being wholly unreasonable.
On Jul 6, 7:21 pm, Ken Wesson wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 10:06 PM, nchubrich wrote:
> > As to making contributions, I just pointed out an example of someone
> > who made a contri
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 10:06 PM, nchubrich wrote:
> As to making contributions, I just pointed out an example of someone
> who made a contribution and was ignored.
Does the term "tl;dr" mean anything to you? I doubt very many people
got that far in the wall of text you posted earlier, especially
To Phil: I am certainly not complaining about your efforts on
Leiningen, Swank, etc. I appreciate them and use themthey have
already made things vastly easier for people, and the problems with
setting up Emacs, certainly, are probably more to do with Emacs
itself. I am just pointing out that
> And ending up here with a thread titled "stand firm
> against..." seems to be exactly the sort of community problem that he
> is worried about.
To be fair, this post and its title were the work of an individual who has
only been in this community for about 3 weeks. And while that individual,
an
nchubrich writes:
> A few people could spend a few tens of hours making things easier for
> everyone else, thereby saving thousands of man-hours (isn't this
> supposed to be what programming is about in the first place?), and yet
> it doesn't happen.
Really? It doesn't happen?
http://groups.goo
I've been using Clojure on and off for a whilecurrently off,
though not because of the language itself. The thread now seems to
have moved in a different direction, but I have to say (looking at the
Seajure and Y Combinator threads) that Steve Yegge has some good
points. And ending up here wi
On Jul 5, 7:30 pm, Sean Corfield wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 8:04 PM, Sean Corfield wrote:
> > On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 3:34 PM, James Keats wrote:
> >> For example I suggest you look at this video/transcript and pay
> >> attention in particular to the point of debate between Joe Armstrong
>
On Tuesday, July 5, 2011 8:08:51 PM UTC+2, Sean Corfield wrote:
>
> It might be an interesting community exercise to examine the 23 GoF
>
patterns and discuss whether they are applicable in an FP world and,
>
if a pattern _is_ still applicable, what it would look like?
>
Hi Sean,
take a look at
On Jul 5, 11:07 pm, faenvie wrote:
> note on the original posting:
>
> > First, he shouldn't be porting Java code to clojure, Second, Clojure IS
> > fundamentally different from Java, and third, such said users who
> > don't want to touch Java should not touch Clojure.
>
> to port java-code to c
On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 21:33, David Nolen wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 3:21 PM, James Keats wrote:
>>
>> And once you encounter the
>> reality and frustration infamously characterized by likening the
>> managing of lispers to the herding of cats then you begin to admire
>> languages like pytho
note on the original posting:
> First, he shouldn't be porting Java code to clojure, Second, Clojure IS
> fundamentally different from Java, and third, such said users who
> don't want to touch Java should not touch Clojure.
to port java-code to clojure-code is certainly not the
right thing to do
On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 8:04 PM, Sean Corfield wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 3:34 PM, James Keats wrote:
>> For example I suggest you look at this video/transcript and pay
>> attention in particular to the point of debate between Joe Armstrong
>> of Erlang and Martin Odersky of Scala
>> http://
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 4:54 AM, faenvie wrote:
> that's exactly true for me: 40+ years old and OO-centric-Programmer
> since 1995.
> it takes me one year now to reach a highlevel quality in programming
> clojure.
I sympathize! I turn 49 this week (Thursday) and have been doing OO
since '92. Fortu
>>Of the people I've tried to expose to Clojure over the last six months,
>>I've definitely found that those with less OO experience tend to pick
>>it up much quicker.
that's exactly true for me: 40+ years old and OO-centric-Programmer
since 1995.
it takes me one year now to reach a highlevel qual
So, another justification for wrapping a Java method is when it's a
layer boundary and the Java method is two (or more) layers lower than
the caller, basically.
This suggests a generalization as well: that there's a form of "Law of
Demeter" applied to layers (and libraries) where one should tend t
Ken Wesson writes:
Hi Ken,
> A related case may be when you're not making just a straight wrapper,
> but adding something -- your own pre/post checks, or argument
> transformations, or etc.
>
> As for binding to a Var, that makes sense if the result is not as
> trivial as #(.meth %) and is going
On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 1:44 PM, Mark Rathwell wrote:
>
> A function is a function, whether it is bound to a Var or not. I think that
> was Ken's point, that you need to wrap a Java method in a function
> (anonymous or named) in order to pass to an HOF, as Java methods are not
> first class. So,
A function is a function, whether it is bound to a Var or not. I think that
was Ken's point, that you need to wrap a Java method in a function
(anonymous or named) in order to pass to an HOF, as Java methods are not
first class. So, that is one instance where a function whose sole purpose
is to w
On Jul 3, 6:15 am, Ken Wesson wrote:
>
> There's one obvious use case for such a wrapper function, though: if
> you'll want to pass the Java method to HOFs from time to time. You
> can't directly pass a Java method to a HOF, but you can pass such a
> wrapper function.
>
Pardon me if I'm wrong,
On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 3:34 PM, James Keats wrote:
> For example I suggest you look at this video/transcript and pay
> attention in particular to the point of debate between Joe Armstrong
> of Erlang and Martin Odersky of Scala
> http://www.infoq.com/interviews/functional-langs
> , in particular
On Jul 3, 9:02 pm, Sean Corfield wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 3:14 AM, James Keats wrote:
>
> Perhaps we move in different circles but I've seen as much "bad Java"
> in the large as I ever used to see "bad FORTRAN" and "bad C / C++"
> code over the years. I think large "enterprise" Java proj
On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 3:14 AM, James Keats wrote:
> Again, to be absolutely clear, I do believe it's easily possible to
> muck up a java or python code base, but I regard the foundational
> design and community cultures of those languages to be conducive to
> large, long-term software and healthy
In addition, completion on vars is usually much better than on methods. Plus
using javadoc when you're used to docstrings feels a bit like using a card
catalog when you're used to having Wikipedia in your pocket.
-Phil
On Jul 2, 2011 10:15 PM, "Ken Wesson" wrote:
--
You received this message be
On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 8:56 PM, Nick Brown wrote:
> But not the "lots of developers" part. As much as I like
> Clojure, it has nowhere near the level of developers languages like
> Java or Python. And to be honest, that constraint is much more
> convincing for most software managers than the lib
On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 10:30 AM, James Keats wrote:
> I'll re-quote it: "• Most Clojure programmers go through an arc.
> First they think “eww, Java” and try to hide all the Java. Then they
> think “ooh, Java” and realize that Clojure is a powerful way to write
> Java code. Rich frowns upon “wra
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