Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Anders Arnholm]

Kevin Woolley wrote:
> I own three Sims in SL, that's ~$600 a month or so to the Lindens, and
> that's supported off DRM'ed content creation that I sell. If my income was
> to vanish because of widespread content theft then I'd be out of SL.  
>
> I find Hax's attitude extremely concerning.
>
> In fact I think we should now recognise that Open Sourcing the viewer has
> been a mistake, and the Lindens should close it off again, possibly
> replacing it with controlled licensed development. As a professional
> developer who regularly makes use of Open Source, and has contributed on
> occasion I am philosophically completely in favour of Open Source wherever
> appropriate. Indeed that's why I subscribed to this list in the first place.
>
>   
I find this idea of putting once head into the sand as worrying. The 
copybotting started long before the viewer got open sourced.  As long 
the content are being rendered on the client side there will be 
possibilities and these will be exploited. Several mistakes in the 
design of stuff making think easier that it need to be have been exposed 
and fixed in then open source viewers.

The only solutions are om the social level, to make copying content not 
worth the effort, this involve work on all side. Making it easy to know 
how made the items, making the originals "affordable". Yes to high 
prices does make people make copies. People also make copies becasue 
no-copy items, no-mod items. To lower the rate of copied content we have 
to work on why people copy. With out that it wil never have any success.

There been a nice illustration floating arounf the internet, showing the 
problems with DRM protections today, mostly on video media.

http://www.techxav.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/piratelegal.jpg



> choice needs to be made between protecting in-world content and the desire
> to open source the viewer then there really is no choice - Open Source must
> be sacrificed.
>
>   
The removing on the open source viewer will not do anything to help 
stoping the content copying. Sorry, to tell you this but it will not 
help. Look at all the other examples around, do they have comtent theft? 
Yes, Do they have open source viewers? No. Why do you think this would 
do anything on second life. As long anyone can sell content, it will 
gets copies in Second life. And if one can't sell it there it will be 
sold to other places. We have already seen that SL content have been 
ilicaly moved to different worlds Include the old google one, IMVU or 
whats it called. I'm sure that blue panet stuff have loots of copied sl 
content.

The fight is against peoples moral and will, this has to change, trying 
to kill once favorite viewer. Does make the customers your enemy, if the 
customer turns enemis they are more likely to copy your content.

> I see no reason why the Lindens could not adopt some for iPhone like model
> for development of the viewer. Certainly from what I read here the Lindens
> need to stop apologising and impose some sort of controlled gateway model
> urgently.
>   
The iPhone model is all about content creators, It would turn Second 
life into Entropia Universe. For me a step towards thats is a step in 
the wrong direction.


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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Anders Arnholm]

Kevin Woolley wrote:
> c. Create an 'iPhone' like walled garden.  There are numerous ways you could
> do this, for example required all connection to the grid to operate via a
> licensed closed-source version of libsl which uses some form of
> public/private key to identify itself.  Or why not strip back the viewer so
> it's analogous to the iPhone hardware and licence 'applet' development for
> it?  
>
>   
For sure iPhone aint jail-breaked and there are no iPhone apps on the 
piratebay some think the rates of copied content in iPhone is higher 
that any other phone. Sure looks like a bright future.


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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Anders Arnholm]

Tigro Spottystripes wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Are the people selling illegal copies making that much money that fast?
>
>   
If they do, the content makers are sure bad in marketing

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Re: [opensource-dev] Yay! (was: Re: oh give me a break)

[tillie]

Lilly  wrote ..

> > Linux build of Snowglobe-2.0 svn doesn't like spaces in the build path.
> Who puts spaces on unix pathes ? ;)

Most installers do that for many OSes. Like Installer for Visual Studio on 
windows. I had to reinstall Visual Studio to something like C:\vs\ or else the 
build would break with a similar error. cmake pukes on that, apparently, cause 
call parameters don't get surrounded with "" each.

But sure, no one should use spaces in paths anywhere. But it's just a common 
misbehaviour you will see all day.

Tillie

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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Anders Arnholm]

Maya Remblai wrote:
> New Hax wrote:
>   
>> but on the internet as a content maker you can make INFINITE products
>> so you arent losing anything if i copy it and make no money off of it.
>>   
>> 
> Not true. See the following example that actually happened to me:
>
> Person A rips a large number of products, including mine. He boxes them 
> and gives them away, for free, claiming he has my permission (which he 
> doesn't). Now, the total value of my products involved was $150 USD. If 
> he only gave the box to 10 people (it was actually more than that) I'm 
> now out $1500 USD. Person A has done a huge amount of monetary damage to 
> me by taking away sales.
>   
Digital economy don't work that way, you may actually have gained if the 
people getting the box likes your products and tel about them. The loss 
is hard to evaluate, and your count is only sure to high, it's the 
theoretical max value in lost sales. Thats is giver all then copies have 
gone to someone even considering your products. and in my experience 
that likelihood is about 0%.

Studies in the effects vary in there results, it seam clear the people 
using pirated stuff are the once most likely to spend money on products. 
Var the results are is hard to tell, but is sure that the content 
industry is one of the few getting bigger and earing more money through 
out the current downfall in the economy. Most other industries backed 
very much, entertainment have not been as hard effected. The online 
content industries have a all time high.



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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Gareth Nelson]

On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 5:56 PM, New Hax  wrote:
> Soft Linden said:
>
> "Content theft, griefing and resource abuse have been
> long-term problems."
>
> I've been a lurker here but are you KIDDING ME? When Linden Labs open
> sourced Second Life, they were right along side us saying to
> proprietary content developers YOU CANNOT PROTECT YOUR CONTENT.
>
> Has that changed now and Linden labs is protecting people who make
> their binary blobs and think they should be protected???
>
> Linden Labs says if we don't cooperate then o noes we'll get
> throttled.  If Linden Labs closes the source your going to have a lot
> of angry coders on your hands and just to show it content "theft" and
> "griefing" will skyrocket!
>
> Lindens should be staying with their promises, Open Source has
> contributed more to Second Life than people who make shoes that they
> want to keep proprietary and not share. I'll say it again you canot
> protect content. Ever. DRM goes against the spirit of Open Source and
> if content creators cant get with that then they should find a new
> business and it shouldnt be on the INTERNET.
>
> I never get "griefed" in secondlife anymore.
>
> anyways if Linden Labs wants to fight against the Open Source
> community they can TRY but they wont win. We can fork and we can make
> a place where open freedoms are respected.
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As much as I oppose copyright (seriously - i'm very open on this
subject right down to being a member of the pirate party), I heavily
disagree with the implication that being against "content theft" is
any kind of attack on the open source community..

I agree it can't be protected against, but that does not mean it
should be encouraged by LL either - I believe that so long as
copyright law exists, LL should enforce it on their platform.

But, I heavily disagree on open source contributing more to SL than
content creators - what use is an empty virtual world, even one that
has killer technology?

Content creators are often whining at LL for not doing the
mathematically impossible (preventing copying), but we should not
start whining at them for not doing the legally impossible
(encouraging copyright infringement on their platform).


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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Gareth Nelson]

On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 9:28 PM, Soft Linden  wrote:

> We'd need to provide a way to move off of Havok while still remaining stable 
> with
> insane physics content,
No you wouldn't, if you wanted to release the server code with the aim
of increasing compatibility at the protocol level, the simplest
solution is to just dump all the code you can without including havok.
Then let the community do the work of porting to ODE or some other
engine. On SL itself, ODE may not be 100% compatible with existing
content, but on other grids it should be fine.

> deal with a lot of licensing issues
I have a simple solution to this one: if you don't 100% own the
copyright in (or have a suitable FLOSS license for) any one piece of
code, don't release it - just leave a big hole marked "code
replacement here"

> rework the server protocol to deal with untrusted peers and survive wider
> version differences, find a way to preserve the economy and creator
> rights, on and on.
releasing the code and opening the grid for external connections are 2
different things, though I suspect that for connecting untrusted
servers there are solutions such as OGP or opensim's hypergrid - i'd
even plug the litesim supergrid here if it still existed (one thing to
note about VW hosting startups: don't underestimate the resources
needed on your backend - got plenty of profit margin on individual
regions, but was slaughtered by backend resource usage)

> Even open sourcing the viewer was a huge time and
> resource investment, done with the calculation that the time invested
> would eventually pay off.
and it did - I suspect that the real reason you don't want to release
the server code is to maintain competitive advantage. That's fine, but
I just wish LL would be more honest and not claim it's about licensing
or other irrelevant matters.

One thing to note is that opensim is rapidly becoming a real
alternative to SL at least in terms of features and so the competitive
advantage of having the server code secret may not last long. The
danger to LL is that opensim et al will move more and more away from
SL compatibility while offering more and more seductive features that
draw away end users.

I don't know if anyone has done it yet, but a P2P opensim (real P2P -
where every client is also a server and they all sync the physics with
each other) will absolutely crush LL for a lot of "social" uses.

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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Gareth Nelson]

736 iPhone apps on TPB to be precise - actually much lower than I
would have thought, although some of the torrents are hack tools and
packs of apps (one such torrent is 3.6GB and includes a few 100
separate apps).

Perhaps the only platform right now that hasn't been cracked to enable
piracy is the Sony PS3 due to the extensive hardware enforcement
(right down to an isolated SPU inside the cell processor) - and that's
coming apart as we speak. Yours truly even has been hard at work
trying to get custom code to run in fear of my older fat PS3 breaking
down and needing to be replaced with the slim (which lacks linux
support). Oh, and when I say piracy hasn't happened on the PS3 yet,
i'm only talking about retail bluray discs, lots of games from the
playstation store have been downloaded without payment by various
people. Something personally I object to since it does cost Sony money
to provide the bandwidth, but there we go...

Once the PS3 is broken, there'll be no current platform that is not
"piracy enabled". And you have to consider as well that a PC (such as
what SL runs on) running a general-purpose OS is designed to give the
user vastly more control than any games console or mobile phone.

DRM is an uphill struggle even where you can control the hardware.

On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Anders Arnholm  wrote:
> Kevin Woolley wrote:
>> c. Create an 'iPhone' like walled garden.  There are numerous ways you could
>> do this, for example required all connection to the grid to operate via a
>> licensed closed-source version of libsl which uses some form of
>> public/private key to identify itself.  Or why not strip back the viewer so
>> it's analogous to the iPhone hardware and licence 'applet' development for
>> it?
>>
>>
> For sure iPhone aint jail-breaked and there are no iPhone apps on the
> piratebay some think the rates of copied content in iPhone is higher
> that any other phone. Sure looks like a bright future.
>
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Anders Arnholm]

Gareth Nelson wrote:
> 736 iPhone apps on TPB to be precise - actually much lower than I
> would have thought, although some of the torrents are hack tools and
> packs of apps (one such torrent is 3.6GB and includes a few 100
> separate apps).
>   
I think the number is very low on tpb because the iphone hack connects 
to an other source where you nsal hacked software from. I have not 
jailbreaked my iPhone so i don't have full knowledge in the details. 
Reports in swedish media talked about over 50% of the apps installed on 
iphones was pirate copies. I think the source thou was a few online 
highscore lists and may not be quite statistical off.

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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Kevin Woolley]

Oh sure, *obviously* you'll never prevent copying completely.  But that's a
straw man - the difference here is between making life difficult for the
thieves (as Apple does - sufficiently so that the jailbreak/piratebay applet
market is no threat to iPhone developers) and leaving the doors and windows
open and unlocked as the Lindens are at the moment with their current Open
Source model.

OK, we can argue about this philosophically backwards and forwards all you
want.  The big difference is that whilst you may contribute the odd patch,
I, and other content creators like me pay the Lindens salary.  As I say I
have three sims - a couple of homesteads supported by content sales and a
full sim which has on it one of the more popular spots in SL - again
supported by content sales there.  So approximately USD$600 per month to the
lab in total via myself, plus all the marginal payments from people being in
world because I'm providing entertainment.  Realistically say USD$10,000+
per annum to the lab?

Now I don't have great margins on this - sims are expensive - but it's
relaxing and fun to build, and I have a sufficiently positive cash-flow that
I continue.  I've no great attachment to SL either though - bottom line is
if I start losing money I'm out.

Every other mid-range content provider (i.e. of sufficient turnover to own
or rent a whole sim) I know of operates similarly, and whilst to be sure I'm
nothing special and if I left SL now others would take my place, the
circumstances we're considering here whereby widespread content theft would
make my holdings unprofitable would impact my peers similarly.  If I'm
forced out of SL because my business model fails then a vast swath of SL
will be disappearing at the same time.

I'm aware this could sound a bit like "It's my ball and I'll take it home if
you don't play the game I want".  It's not intended to - philosophically I'm
all for Open Source myself. I simply wish to emphasise my particular
economics - which I'm certain are extremely common across the grid - and
that the Lab *has* to get the balance between Open Source and content
protection correct. Previously I thought it had - but from what I see on
this list over the last few days have revised my opinion.

Kevin


-Original Message-
From: Anders Arnholm [mailto:and...@arnholm.se] 
Sent: 16 March 2010 09:06
To: Kevin Woolley
Cc: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

Kevin Woolley wrote:
> c. Create an 'iPhone' like walled garden.  There are numerous ways you
could
> do this, for example required all connection to the grid to operate via a
> licensed closed-source version of libsl which uses some form of
> public/private key to identify itself.  Or why not strip back the viewer
so
> it's analogous to the iPhone hardware and licence 'applet' development for
> it?  
>
>   
For sure iPhone aint jail-breaked and there are no iPhone apps on the 
piratebay some think the rates of copied content in iPhone is higher 
that any other phone. Sure looks like a bright future.


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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Rob Nelson]

On Tue, 2010-03-16 at 09:48 +0100, Anders Arnholm wrote:
> 
> There been a nice illustration floating arounf the internet, showing the 
> problems with DRM protections today, mostly on video media.
> 
> http://www.techxav.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/piratelegal.jpg

I love the subtle :trollface: in the background.  I don't know why it's
there, but it's still great.

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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Gareth Nelson]

The answer to that pic is to buy the movie and then rip it - still
technically copyright infringement, yet you're supporting the makers
without getting all the extra crap

In other news, this thread has been massively derailed..

On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Rob Nelson
 wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-03-16 at 09:48 +0100, Anders Arnholm wrote:
>>
>> There been a nice illustration floating arounf the internet, showing the
>> problems with DRM protections today, mostly on video media.
>>
>> http://www.techxav.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/piratelegal.jpg
>
> I love the subtle :trollface: in the background.  I don't know why it's
> there, but it's still great.
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Yasmin Adams]

oh yes please!

X11-like copy-paste (by selecting and middle mouse button)
> :-)
>

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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Anders Arnholm]

Kevin Woolley wrote:
> Oh sure, *obviously* you'll never prevent copying completely.  But that's a
> straw man - the difference here is between making life difficult for the
> thieves (as Apple does - sufficiently so that the jailbreak/piratebay applet
> market is no threat to iPhone developers) and leaving the doors and windows
> open and unlocked as the Lindens are at the moment with their current Open
> Source model.
>   
What you fail to see it that the copy rate on iPhones is as high or even 
higher that on Second Life. This despite that apple makes it "hard" The 
threats is there, how ever the turnaround it still big enough to get 
people living off it. Then they los MORE in % that you. Why do you think 
that solutions would help you? Your contents is not open sourced, open 
source AHVE nothing and will never have anything to do with copying 
content form second life.

What you fail to see is that the making stuff difficult most makes it 
difficult for the paying customes and much less so for the non paying 
customers. As Tomas showed you there are many reasons to copy, many that 
are driver by content creators willing making there product much harder 
to use. In attemps to make copying less, efforts that make the copies 
tsuff much better that the originals. We programmers of the client have 
made some workarounds for these problems, to make life easier again and 
make some of these ideas don't hinder customers as much as intended.
> OK, we can argue about this philosophically backwards and forwards all you
> want.  The big difference is that whilst you may contribute the odd patch,
> I, and other content creators like me pay the Lindens salary.  As I say I
>   
Do you know what content I sell? So you know how much I support the 
lindens with? If not, please take your argument someware else please.

And by the way you have any idea how much one of these odd patches costs 
a software company to develop? You have any idea how much money a bug 
fix costs to find in development time? US$600 an month, Aint much 
payment for the work of one developer. I say thats maybe is enought fo 
fix one trivial know problem for the one that made it. You have any idea 
how many work hours that is? And if we remove the actually cost for the 
hosts, running the computers and so on you have any idea how much your 
money gives to developing the system making sure you get new versions 
and bugs fixed?

We in additions to paying rent as you, also make bugfixes making it 
possibly for you to get as many prims for that price.


> I'm aware this could sound a bit like "It's my ball and I'll take it home if
> you don't play the game I want".  It's not intended to - philosophically I'm
>   
I suggest you try iPhone development instead, but don't come back here 
complain when your applications are pirated. Can we get back to finding 
solutions on how to lower the illegal copying? Your suggestions have 
been proven not to work. The fist copybot attacks on SL was before the 
open source viewer, they was bigger and the lossed in % of income looks 
as they been much bigger. This make all talk for your suggestions wil 
not work.

BTW there are world out there that have close source viewers and Apple 
like developer licenses. They just lack a working economy, not that they 
don't try, not that they don't market. The users are missing, the 
creators are missing. Maybe there is a connection. When you can't make 
your own stuff, and give that away, why not use WoW? EVE Online? 
Entropia Universe?

Maybe you are not interested in the philosophical sides, but making 
money form digital copies are all a game of physiology. It's about 
making people wanting to pay. You can't fore people to pay, not unless 
you are a government at least. There have been put so much money into 
this because people LIKE it to be true. They LIKE it to work, and every 
time it have failed.

And yes it's possible to make money, it works all the time to make 
money, you say you make money. You think less happy people in the grid 
will give you more money?

I'm sure the Lindens are turning to much towards protection and making 
life hard on users, I have seen this effect sales, Hardening the copy 
protections have med much more support and less profit, have made more 
unhappy customers. And it is effecting my possibilities to run my land 
form my sales.

And yes i like the scrips to be no-mod, no-transfer and copy for my 
customers, and the items as such no-transfer, but copy and mod. Since i 
started some changed in the handling made this combinations harder for 
the customers to use.





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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Daniel]

Lawson wrote:

Except ALL L$ transactions are monitored. Give someone $L 1,000,000 in 
one chunk or in one million chunks, and it will still trigger alarms.

-

As a major Lindex trader I can verify there are such alarms, cause I have 
tripped
them several times.  Move too much money, in L$ or US$, and your account gets 
suspended.
In my case it was for legitimate reasons, but I understand and approve of the 
reasons
they are there.  Without them, SL would be a haven for credit card fraud:  Use 
a stolen
card number to buy L$, shift them to another account, then cash it out.  
Whether the
shifting is to an alt, or to an innocent buyer using paypal to buy them off you 
does not
matter.  Such things are server side though, and not relevant to this list, so 
back to
lurking.

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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?

[Armin Weatherwax]

Yasmin Adams schrieb:
> oh yes please!
>
> X11-like copy-paste (by selecting and middle mouse button)
>
> > :-)
http://jira.secondlife.com/secure/attachment/37076/SG1.3mmbpaste.diff

:)

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[opensource-dev] Moving Content to Non-Prim worlds

[Daniel]

Kevin wrote:

We have already seen that SL content have been 
ilicaly moved to different worlds Include the old google one, IMVU or 
whats it called. I'm sure that blue panet stuff have loots of copied sl 
content.

-

If you are referring to "Blue Mars", they do not have lots of anything yet,
since it is still early beta, but I tested moving objects from SL to Blue
Mars early on.  It is possible, but not easy, since you have to convert prims
to editable polygons in some 3D program, and textures from .tga to .dds format.
The texture settings beyond the filename (repeats, glow, etc) are entirely 
different, and scripts are in LUA language rather than LSL, so are not 
compatible.
So the work involved is a significant fraction of what it takes to create an 
item from scratch, and to do it you need the kind of knowledge a content creator
needs to have.

To limit (but not 100% prevent) illicit content from flooding their world, they 
are:

- using encrypted 7zip archives to deliver content to end users
- only allow registered developers to upload content and cash out
- require renting a shop to sell items
- do not have user-to-user item transfer

How successful these limits are remains to be seen.

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[opensource-dev] SL2 font problem on linux

[Tayra Dagostino]

Every time i try to login SL2 crash due some font trouble, all font
listed are present and readable by all users in the system...

somebody else seen this? (if yes i'll opena  JIRA, otherwise i look for
a local trouble of my linuxbox...)
~/sl_rc/SecondLife-i686-2.0.0.202711$ ./secondlife
Running from /home/userXXX/sl_rc/SecondLife-i686-2.0.0.202711
 - Installing menu entries in /home/userXXX/.local/share/applications
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z INFO: (anonymous namespace)::LogControlFile::loadFile: 
logging reconfigured from 
/home/userXXX/sl_rc/SecondLife-i686-2.0.0.202711/app_settings/logcontrol.xml
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z INFO: LLError::NoClassInfo::initConfiguration: Loading 
settings file list 
/home/userXXX/sl_rc/SecondLife-i686-2.0.0.202711/app_settings/settings_files.xml
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z INFO: LLError::NoClassInfo::loadSettingsFromDirectory: 
Attempting to load settings for the group CrashSettings - from location Default
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z INFO: LLError::NoClassInfo::loadSettingsFromDirectory: 
Loaded settings file 
/home/userXXX/sl_rc/SecondLife-i686-2.0.0.202711/app_settings/settings_crash_behavior.xml
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z INFO: LLError::NoClassInfo::loadSettingsFromDirectory: 
Attempting to load settings for the group Global - from location Default
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z INFO: LLError::NoClassInfo::loadSettingsFromDirectory: 
Loaded settings file 
/home/userXXX/sl_rc/SecondLife-i686-2.0.0.202711/app_settings/settings.xml
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z INFO: LLError::NoClassInfo::loadSettingsFromDirectory: 
Attempting to load settings for the group PerAccount - from location Default
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z INFO: LLError::NoClassInfo::loadSettingsFromDirectory: 
Loaded settings file 
/home/userXXX/sl_rc/SecondLife-i686-2.0.0.202711/app_settings/settings_per_account.xml
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z INFO: LLError::NoClassInfo::loadSettingsFromDirectory: 
Attempting to load settings for the group Warnings - from location Default
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z INFO: LLError::NoClassInfo::loadSettingsFromDirectory: 
Loaded settings file 
/home/userXXX/sl_rc/SecondLife-i686-2.0.0.202711/app_settings/ignorable_dialogs.xml
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z INFO: LLError::NoClassInfo::initParseCommandLine: Language 
it
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z INFO: LLError::NoClassInfo::initParseCommandLine: Location 
IT
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z INFO: LLError::NoClassInfo::initParseCommandLine: Variant 
UTF-8
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z INFO: LLError::NoClassInfo::initConfiguration: Using 
command line specified settings filename: 
/home/userXXX/.secondlife/user_settings/settings_betaviewer.xml
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z INFO: LLError::NoClassInfo::loadSettingsFromDirectory: 
Attempting to load settings for the group CrashSettings - from location User
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z INFO: LLError::NoClassInfo::loadSettingsFromDirectory: 
Loaded settings file 
/home/userXXX/.secondlife/user_settings/settings_crash_behavior.xml
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z INFO: LLError::NoClassInfo::loadSettingsFromDirectory: 
Attempting to load settings for the group Global - from location User
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z INFO: LLError::NoClassInfo::loadSettingsFromDirectory: 
Loaded settings file 
/home/userXXX/.secondlife/user_settings/settings_betaviewer.xml
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z INFO: LLError::NoClassInfo::loadSettingsFromDirectory: 
Attempting to load settings for the group Warnings - from location User
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z INFO: LLError::NoClassInfo::loadSettingsFromDirectory: 
Loaded settings file 
/home/userXXX/.secondlife/user_settings/ignorable_dialogs.xml
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z WARNING: ll_apr_warn_status: APR: No such file or directory
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z WARNING: remove:  Attempting to remove filename: 
/home/userXXX/.secondlife/logs/SecondLife.logout_marker
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z WARNING: ll_apr_warn_status: APR: No such file or directory
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z WARNING: remove:  Attempting to remove filename: 
/home/userXXX/.secondlife/logs/SecondLife.llerror_marker
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z WARNING: ll_apr_warn_status: APR: No such file or directory
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z WARNING: remove:  Attempting to remove filename: 
/home/userXXX/.secondlife/logs/SecondLife.error_marker
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z WARNING: LLUIColorTable::insertFromParams: 
ColorPaletteEntry17 references a non-existent color
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z WARNING: LLUIColorTable::insertFromParams: 
ColorPaletteEntry20 references a non-existent color
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z INFO: LLError::NoClassInfo::writeSystemInfo: Second Life 
version 2.0.0
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z INFO: LLError::NoClassInfo::writeSystemInfo: Local time: 
2010-03-16T19:04:03 CET
2010-03-16T18:04:03Z INFO: LLError::NoClassInfo::writeSystemInfo: CPU info:
processor   : 0 vendor_id   : GenuineIntel cpu family   : 6 model   
: 15 model name : Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPUQ6600  @ 2.40GHz 
stepping  : 11 cpu MHz: 1600.000 cache size   : 4096 KB 
physical id: 0 siblings   : 4 core id : 0 cpu cores   : 4 
apicid  : 0 initial apicid  : 0 fdiv_bug: n

[opensource-dev] Snowglobe 1.4 trunk build

[Philippe (Merov) Bossut]

Hi,

There were a couple of parabuild (build farm machinery) issues that tripped
me for a while. Those have been fixed now and we were able to build
Snowglobe 1.4 trunk for the 3 platforms. Remember that 1.4 is the "1.x"
based trunk that we keep building as long as we don't have a perfectly
stable and complete 2.0.

The most significant fix in that build is :
   SNOW-551: Don't lowercase the loginuri command line argument

Downloads:

Windows:
http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2010/trunk/3229/Snowglobe_1-4-0-3229_Setup.exe
Darwin:
http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2010/trunk/3229/Snowglobe_1_4_0_3229_SNOWGLOBETESTBUILD.dmg
Linux:
http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2010/trunk/3229/Snowglobe-i686-1.4.0.3229.tar.bz2

Cheers,
- Merov
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Re: [opensource-dev] Moving Content to Non-Prim worlds

[Argent Stonecutter]

On 2010-03-16, at 12:13, Daniel wrote:
> - using encrypted 7zip archives to deliver content to end users

This will end up having little effect, since the textures and geometry  
can be pulled from the graphics card.

> - only allow registered developers to upload content and cash out
> - require renting a shop to sell items
> - do not have user-to-user item transfer

This are more likely to be effective, but if SL had restrictions like  
this in place it would be a very different (and far less rich and  
vibrant and _profitable_) environment.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Moving Content to Non-Prim worlds

[Moriz Gupte]

'> - only allow registered developers to upload content and cash out
> - require renting a shop to sell items
> - do not have user-to-user item transfer'
Am sure some business people at LL (without the experience of delivering
virtual goods for specific audiences) might find the above attractive, but
this will severely squash the diversity and increase the price of content on
the SL platform. Usually such a frameworks arise  not by choice but because
of the lack of advanced inworld building tools or other high barriers for
content creation. And for somebody who is involved in content creation
purely driven by clients who want to see every step of the creation process,
so that they can in the end get what they really want..the above will just
not allow such tightly coupled non-builder(user)/ builder design iteration
loops to happen.

On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 1:03 PM, Argent Stonecutter  wrote:

> On 2010-03-16, at 12:13, Daniel wrote:
> > - using encrypted 7zip archives to deliver content to end users
>
> This will end up having little effect, since the textures and geometry
> can be pulled from the graphics card.
>
> > - only allow registered developers to upload content and cash out
> > - require renting a shop to sell items
> > - do not have user-to-user item transfer
>
> This are more likely to be effective, but if SL had restrictions like
> this in place it would be a very different (and far less rich and
> vibrant and _profitable_) environment.
> ___
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>



-- 
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD Research Assistant Professor Idaho State
University, PocatelloTel: 208-282-5333
More info at http://tr.im/RRamloll
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[opensource-dev] Fixing the 2.0 chat bar focus problem?

[Argent Stonecutter]

OK, here's a design problem in the new viewer that maybe can be  
figured out here.

 From the Jira, I missed this response to one of my comments, some  
time ago. Apologies, I forgot to "watch" the item:

 From Q Linden:
> Argent: the focus problem differs this time because the chat bar is  
> always present; we have no mechanism to make it go away, so if we  
> always gave it focus it would block normal keyboard use. Personally,  
> I'm an AWSD movement person, so I actually find this works really  
> well for me. It's not quite as obviously wrong as you seem to think.  
> However, I understand the use case and we'll talk about it internally.

This is exactly the same problem that we had the last two times. This  
is exactly the same discussion we had the last two times. There are  
many many people who never use any of the keyboard accelerators in SL,  
and always have the chat bar up and in focus. The chat bar focus NEVER  
goes away. For us, normal keyboard use does not involve anything the  
chat bar blocks.

So, how could this be fixed in the 2.0 viewer without causing  
discombobulation?

An option "chat bar is the default focus"?

What would that actually break?
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Re: [opensource-dev] Moving Content to Non-Prim worlds

[Anders Arnholm]

Argent Stonecutter wrote:
> On 2010-03-16, at 12:13, Daniel wrote:
>   
>> - using encrypted 7zip archives to deliver content to end users
>> 
>
> This will end up having little effect, since the textures and geometry  
> can be pulled from the graphics card.
>
>   

There already exists programs to make this easy. Getting it to work for 
Blue Mars can't be a major work.

>> - only allow registered developers to upload content and cash out
>> - require renting a shop to sell items
>> - do not have user-to-user item transfer
>> 
>
> This are more likely to be effective, but if SL had restrictions like  
> this in place it would be a very different (and far less rich and  
> vibrant and _profitable_) environment.

Those three points may be more efficiant that any of the rest, it's also 
imho is going to make the world increative and dead...


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Re: [opensource-dev] Moving Content to Non-Prim worlds

[Moriz Gupte]

also,
funny how
> - do not have user-to-user item transfer'

gets turned into a business decision or even a requirement. :) why does
Bluemars not say, we havent implemented this functionality... and if they
don't have this, I wonder where they would stand on the 'hypergrid'
functionality that I believe will be a requirement for future worlds...

On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 1:19 PM, Moriz Gupte  wrote:

> '> - only allow registered developers to upload content and cash out
>
> > - require renting a shop to sell items
> > - do not have user-to-user item transfer'
> Am sure some business people at LL (without the experience of delivering
> virtual goods for specific audiences) might find the above attractive, but
> this will severely squash the diversity and increase the price of content on
> the SL platform. Usually such a frameworks arise  not by choice but because
> of the lack of advanced inworld building tools or other high barriers for
> content creation. And for somebody who is involved in content creation
> purely driven by clients who want to see every step of the creation process,
> so that they can in the end get what they really want..the above will just
> not allow such tightly coupled non-builder(user)/ builder design iteration
> loops to happen.
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 1:03 PM, Argent Stonecutter <
> secret.arg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2010-03-16, at 12:13, Daniel wrote:
>> > - using encrypted 7zip archives to deliver content to end users
>>
>> This will end up having little effect, since the textures and geometry
>> can be pulled from the graphics card.
>>
>> > - only allow registered developers to upload content and cash out
>> > - require renting a shop to sell items
>> > - do not have user-to-user item transfer
>>
>> This are more likely to be effective, but if SL had restrictions like
>> this in place it would be a very different (and far less rich and
>> vibrant and _profitable_) environment.
>> ___
>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting
>> privileges
>>
>
>
>
> --
> 'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
> Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD Research Assistant Professor Idaho State
> University, PocatelloTel: 208-282-5333
> More info at http://tr.im/RRamloll
>
>


-- 
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD Research Assistant Professor Idaho State
University, PocatelloTel: 208-282-5333
More info at http://tr.im/RRamloll
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Re: [opensource-dev] Moving Content to Non-Prim worlds

[Anders Arnholm]

Daniel wrote:
> Kevin wrote:
>
> We have already seen that SL content have been 
> ilicaly moved to different worlds Include the old google one, IMVU or 
> whats it called. I'm sure that blue panet stuff have loots of copied sl 
> content.
>
> -
>
> If you are referring to "Blue Mars", they do not have lots of anything yet,
> since it is still early beta, but I tested moving objects from SL to Blue
> Mars early on.  It is possible, but not easy, since you have to convert prims
> to editable polygons in some 3D program, and textures from .tga to .dds 
> format.
>   
The tga to dds is quite simple, Textues are not tga in the pipe either, 
convertions could easy be done by any extractions tool. I have seen work 
to take xml lists form sl into 3d programs.

> The texture settings beyond the filename (repeats, glow, etc) are entirely 
> different, and scripts are in LUA language rather than LSL, so are not 
> compatible.
>   
Noone yet talked about copying scripts, it the langugaes are repotlu 
similat there wil be convertions thou. Why becase good content creators 
wil work on many markets and wil need the tools for this.

> So the work involved is a significant fraction of what it takes to create an 
> item from scratch, and to do it you need the kind of knowledge a content 
> creator
> needs to have.
>
> To limit (but not 100% prevent) illicit content from flooding their world, 
> they are:
>
> - using encrypted 7zip archives to deliver content to end users
>   
But the encryption key is stored at the computer reciving the data, so 
this only protects the transfer, it's the same as using https in terms 
of security. But apperently they have been folling someone that it will 
protect content for the end user.


> - only allow registered developers to upload content and cash out
> - require renting a shop to sell items
> - do not have user-to-user item transfer
>
> How successful these limits are remains to be seen.
>   

The three last can have an impact, impact like on the other closed 
world, EvE Online etc. Sure they get users but possibilities get limited 
very much as well. I hope we don't get any limitaitons like that on 
second life.



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Re: [opensource-dev] Yay! (was: Re: oh give me a break)

[Glen Canaday]

I misbehaved. Changed the build dir from under "Second Life" (note the 
space in the name... i woulda though cmake would escape them), to 
SL_BUILD and all is almost beautiful. Runs great, considering it's 
terribly beta and hasn't been thru an iteration or two of performance 
patches. Runs (subjectively) the same as the 2.0 beta binary release.

The build didn't pack it up with tar & bzip2 though. I did that myself. 
Now I can at least start poking at it after my girlfriend turns me into 
a preppy elf.

--GC

On 03/16/2010 05:13 AM, til...@xp2.de wrote:
> Lilly  wrote ..
>
>
>>> Linux build of Snowglobe-2.0 svn doesn't like spaces in the build path.
>>>
>> Who puts spaces on unix pathes ? ;)
>>  
> Most installers do that for many OSes. Like Installer for Visual Studio on 
> windows. I had to reinstall Visual Studio to something like C:\vs\ or else 
> the build would break with a similar error. cmake pukes on that, apparently, 
> cause call parameters don't get surrounded with "" each.
>
> But sure, no one should use spaces in paths anywhere. But it's just a common 
> misbehaviour you will see all day.
>
> Tillie
>
>

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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Glen Canaday]

That's part the point I've been hesitant to make. It's one thing to not 
be able to stop IP violations, but it's quite another to deliberately 
*enable* them and turn the other cheek when the theft is obvious. That's 
where the TPV policy comes in, and it's where Emerald's "project opal" 
(that what it's called?) comes in. It's also where viewer developers 
come in.

SL would be as empty of people and content as my standalone OpenSim home 
/ testing grid if it were permitted. In order to keep our own Second 
Lives worth having, viewer devs need to not deliberately enable copying. 
Can't predict the effects of every single little bug, but it still 
behooves the programmer to be vigilant about it.

The Gimp is free software but the pictures made with it aren't unless 
that right is given by the creator. Same as in SL. And that's the major 
point that brings the whole copyright / theft discussion back on topic 
for the list. Seems a few lurkers are thinking that they own the hole 
they've been digging themselves into. I'm all for free tools - the Mona 
Lisa could have been painted with free brushes or magic special 
Microsoft brushes - but that doesn't mean that because I gave DaVinci 
the brush, canvas, and paints that I'm free to take the art out of the 
Louvre.

Hopefully that kills this thread.

--GC

> I agree it can't be protected against, but that does not mean it
> should be encouraged by LL either - I believe that so long as
> copyright law exists, LL should enforce it on their platform.
>
> But, I heavily disagree on open source contributing more to SL than
> content creators - what use is an empty virtual world, even one that
> has killer technology?
>

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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Glen Canaday]

Yeah, that's it. I forgot the name. I expect that list to grow a bit, 
but hopefully it won't grow much bigger than it already is.

On 03/16/2010 06:08 PM, Robert Martin wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 6:03 PM, Glen Canaday  wrote:
>
>> That's part the point I've been hesitant to make. It's one thing to not
>> be able to stop IP violations, but it's quite another to deliberately
>> *enable* them and turn the other cheek when the theft is obvious. That's
>> where the TPV policy comes in, and it's where Emerald's "project opal"
>> (that what it's called?) comes in. It's also where viewer developers
>> come in.
>>  
> ...
> are you talking about http://onyx.modularsystems.sl/??
>
>

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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Gareth Nelson]

On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 10:03 PM, Glen Canaday  wrote:
> The Gimp is free software but the pictures made with it aren't unless
> that right is given by the creator. Same as in SL. And that's the major
> point that brings the whole copyright / theft discussion back on topic
> for the list. Seems a few lurkers are thinking that they own the hole
> they've been digging themselves into. I'm all for free tools - the Mona
> Lisa could have been painted with free brushes or magic special
> Microsoft brushes - but that doesn't mean that because I gave DaVinci
> the brush, canvas, and paints that I'm free to take the art out of the
> Louvre.

I'd be inclined to say that this is a bad analogy - what's closer is
whether you can paint your own mona lisa, or otherwise copy it -
you'll not find support for actual theft from me :)

But back on topic - regardless of all our unique individual political
views on copyright, it's definitely a bad bad idea for LL to encourage
copyright infringement on their platform - or anything illegal for
that matter - this is something we can agree on, yes?

I'd hope another thing to be agreed on is that it's not good to
implement strong DRM measures and cripple legit users while at most
slowing down temporarily those who want to break the rules - yay or
nay?


-- 
“Lanie, I’m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for
everyone. That’s worth going to jail for. That’s worth anything.” -
Printcrime by Cory Doctrow

Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Glen Canaday]

Lol, yes, I think everyone except hax and a couple of others would agree.

The analogy still works, though...

DaVinci should've been able to export / backup the Mona Lisa. I'm still 
not allowed to take the original out of the museum though it's not mine 
even though I gave him the brushes.

--GC

On 03/16/2010 06:19 PM, Gareth Nelson wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 10:03 PM, Glen Canaday  wrote:
>
>> The Gimp is free software but the pictures made with it aren't unless
>> that right is given by the creator. Same as in SL. And that's the major
>> point that brings the whole copyright / theft discussion back on topic
>> for the list. Seems a few lurkers are thinking that they own the hole
>> they've been digging themselves into. I'm all for free tools - the Mona
>> Lisa could have been painted with free brushes or magic special
>> Microsoft brushes - but that doesn't mean that because I gave DaVinci
>> the brush, canvas, and paints that I'm free to take the art out of the
>> Louvre.
>>  
> I'd be inclined to say that this is a bad analogy - what's closer is
> whether you can paint your own mona lisa, or otherwise copy it -
> you'll not find support for actual theft from me :)
>
> But back on topic - regardless of all our unique individual political
> views on copyright, it's definitely a bad bad idea for LL to encourage
> copyright infringement on their platform - or anything illegal for
> that matter - this is something we can agree on, yes?
>
> I'd hope another thing to be agreed on is that it's not good to
> implement strong DRM measures and cripple legit users while at most
> slowing down temporarily those who want to break the rules - yay or
> nay?
>
>
>

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Re: [opensource-dev] Fixing the 2.0 chat bar focus problem?

[Glen Canaday]

That's an annoyance I'd like to specifically target in snowglobe 2. The 
majority of resis in SL were never gamers so never got used to wasd 
movement.

--GC

On 03/16/2010 03:42 PM, Argent Stonecutter wrote:
> OK, here's a design problem in the new viewer that maybe can be
> figured out here.
>
>   From the Jira, I missed this response to one of my comments, some
> time ago. Apologies, I forgot to "watch" the item:
>
>   From Q Linden:
>
>> Argent: the focus problem differs this time because the chat bar is
>> always present; we have no mechanism to make it go away, so if we
>> always gave it focus it would block normal keyboard use. Personally,
>> I'm an AWSD movement person, so I actually find this works really
>> well for me. It's not quite as obviously wrong as you seem to think.
>> However, I understand the use case and we'll talk about it internally.
>>  
> This is exactly the same problem that we had the last two times. This
> is exactly the same discussion we had the last two times. There are
> many many people who never use any of the keyboard accelerators in SL,
> and always have the chat bar up and in focus. The chat bar focus NEVER
> goes away. For us, normal keyboard use does not involve anything the
> chat bar blocks.
>
> So, how could this be fixed in the 2.0 viewer without causing
> discombobulation?
>
> An option "chat bar is the default focus"?
>
> What would that actually break?
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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Tigro Spottystripes]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

isn't that actually fair use?

On 16/3/2010 09:04, Gareth Nelson wrote:
> The answer to that pic is to buy the movie and then rip it - still
> technically copyright infringement, yet you're supporting the makers
> without getting all the extra crap
>
> In other news, this thread has been massively derailed..
>
> On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Rob Nelson
>  wrote:
>> On Tue, 2010-03-16 at 09:48 +0100, Anders Arnholm wrote:
>>>
>>> There been a nice illustration floating arounf the internet, showing the
>>> problems with DRM protections today, mostly on video media.
>>>
>>> http://www.techxav.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/piratelegal.jpg
>>
>> I love the subtle :trollface: in the background.  I don't know why it's
>> there, but it's still great.
>>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Fixing the 2.0 chat bar focus problem?

[Tigro Spottystripes]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

that's new to me...

perhaps my sample is biased due to me hanging around people with similar
interests (i do like to play computer/video games)

On 16/3/2010 19:41, Glen Canaday wrote:
> That's an annoyance I'd like to specifically target in snowglobe 2. The 
> majority of resis in SL were never gamers so never got used to wasd 
> movement.
> 
> --GC
> 
> On 03/16/2010 03:42 PM, Argent Stonecutter wrote:
>> OK, here's a design problem in the new viewer that maybe can be
>> figured out here.
>>
>>   From the Jira, I missed this response to one of my comments, some
>> time ago. Apologies, I forgot to "watch" the item:
>>
>>   From Q Linden:
>>
>>> Argent: the focus problem differs this time because the chat bar is
>>> always present; we have no mechanism to make it go away, so if we
>>> always gave it focus it would block normal keyboard use. Personally,
>>> I'm an AWSD movement person, so I actually find this works really
>>> well for me. It's not quite as obviously wrong as you seem to think.
>>> However, I understand the use case and we'll talk about it internally.
>>>  
>> This is exactly the same problem that we had the last two times. This
>> is exactly the same discussion we had the last two times. There are
>> many many people who never use any of the keyboard accelerators in SL,
>> and always have the chat bar up and in focus. The chat bar focus NEVER
>> goes away. For us, normal keyboard use does not involve anything the
>> chat bar blocks.
>>
>> So, how could this be fixed in the 2.0 viewer without causing
>> discombobulation?
>>
>> An option "chat bar is the default focus"?
>>
>> What would that actually break?
>> ___
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Re: [opensource-dev] Fixing the 2.0 chat bar focus problem?

[Glen Canaday]

Maybe it's *my* bias. I personally know of no gamers who'd use wasd who 
have stayed in SL longer than a couple of months at best.

Most of the people I have known in SL shop, go to clubs, create, RP, and 
hang out, most of which requires chatting without an extra step to 
switch focus. Leaving the chat bar with focus kills wasd movement, but I 
can name no one who doesn't use the arrow keys for that.

Survey?

On 03/16/2010 07:10 PM, Tigro Spottystripes wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> that's new to me...
>
> perhaps my sample is biased due to me hanging around people with similar
> interests (i do like to play computer/video games)
>
> On 16/3/2010 19:41, Glen Canaday wrote:
>
>> That's an annoyance I'd like to specifically target in snowglobe 2. The
>> majority of resis in SL were never gamers so never got used to wasd
>> movement.
>>
>> --GC
>>
>> On 03/16/2010 03:42 PM, Argent Stonecutter wrote:
>>  
>>> OK, here's a design problem in the new viewer that maybe can be
>>> figured out here.
>>>
>>>From the Jira, I missed this response to one of my comments, some
>>> time ago. Apologies, I forgot to "watch" the item:
>>>
>>>From Q Linden:
>>>
>>>
 Argent: the focus problem differs this time because the chat bar is
 always present; we have no mechanism to make it go away, so if we
 always gave it focus it would block normal keyboard use. Personally,
 I'm an AWSD movement person, so I actually find this works really
 well for me. It's not quite as obviously wrong as you seem to think.
 However, I understand the use case and we'll talk about it internally.

  
>>> This is exactly the same problem that we had the last two times. This
>>> is exactly the same discussion we had the last two times. There are
>>> many many people who never use any of the keyboard accelerators in SL,
>>> and always have the chat bar up and in focus. The chat bar focus NEVER
>>> goes away. For us, normal keyboard use does not involve anything the
>>> chat bar blocks.
>>>
>>> So, how could this be fixed in the 2.0 viewer without causing
>>> discombobulation?
>>>
>>> An option "chat bar is the default focus"?
>>>
>>> What would that actually break?
>>> ___
>>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
>>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
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Re: [opensource-dev] Fixing the 2.0 chat bar focus problem?

[Glen Canaday]

Autoplay media has got to go, too.

On 03/16/2010 07:10 PM, Tigro Spottystripes wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> that's new to me...
>
> perhaps my sample is biased due to me hanging around people with similar
> interests (i do like to play computer/video games)
>
> On 16/3/2010 19:41, Glen Canaday wrote:
>
>> That's an annoyance I'd like to specifically target in snowglobe 2. The
>> majority of resis in SL were never gamers so never got used to wasd
>> movement.
>>
>> --GC
>>
>> On 03/16/2010 03:42 PM, Argent Stonecutter wrote:
>>  
>>> OK, here's a design problem in the new viewer that maybe can be
>>> figured out here.
>>>
>>>From the Jira, I missed this response to one of my comments, some
>>> time ago. Apologies, I forgot to "watch" the item:
>>>
>>>From Q Linden:
>>>
>>>
 Argent: the focus problem differs this time because the chat bar is
 always present; we have no mechanism to make it go away, so if we
 always gave it focus it would block normal keyboard use. Personally,
 I'm an AWSD movement person, so I actually find this works really
 well for me. It's not quite as obviously wrong as you seem to think.
 However, I understand the use case and we'll talk about it internally.

  
>>> This is exactly the same problem that we had the last two times. This
>>> is exactly the same discussion we had the last two times. There are
>>> many many people who never use any of the keyboard accelerators in SL,
>>> and always have the chat bar up and in focus. The chat bar focus NEVER
>>> goes away. For us, normal keyboard use does not involve anything the
>>> chat bar blocks.
>>>
>>> So, how could this be fixed in the 2.0 viewer without causing
>>> discombobulation?
>>>
>>> An option "chat bar is the default focus"?
>>>
>>> What would that actually break?
>>> ___
>>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
>>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
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> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
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>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Fixing the 2.0 chat bar focus problem?

[Zi Ree]

Am Mittwoch 17 März 2010 00:21:42 schrieb Glen Canaday:

> Most of the people I have known in SL shop, go to clubs, create, RP, and
> hang out, most of which requires chatting without an extra step to
> switch focus. Leaving the chat bar with focus kills wasd movement, but I
> can name no one who doesn't use the arrow keys for that.

What I usually do is having the chat bar hidden, walk around with WASD or 
cursor keys, whatever is appropriate at that moment, and call the chat bar up 
by pressing Enter when I need it. That's one thing I would lve to see coming 
back in 2.0. Autohide chat bar.

Zi
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Re: [opensource-dev] Fixing the 2.0 chat bar focus problem?

[Michael Schlenker]

Am 17.03.2010 um 00:29 schrieb Zi Ree:

> Am Mittwoch 17 März 2010 00:21:42 schrieb Glen Canaday:
> 
>> Most of the people I have known in SL shop, go to clubs, create, RP, and
>> hang out, most of which requires chatting without an extra step to
>> switch focus. Leaving the chat bar with focus kills wasd movement, but I
>> can name no one who doesn't use the arrow keys for that.
> 
> What I usually do is having the chat bar hidden, walk around with WASD or 
> cursor keys, whatever is appropriate at that moment, and call the chat bar up 
> by pressing Enter when I need it. That's one thing I would lve to see coming 
> back in 2.0. Autohide chat bar.

+1 Was the first thing i missed from 2.0.

Michael
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Re: [opensource-dev] Fixing the 2.0 chat bar focus problem?

[Glen Canaday]

That is the current 2.0 behavior to a tee. The only difference is that 
it never becomes invisible.

That's 4 on the list including Q so far, 1 (me) otherwise.

--GC

On 03/16/2010 07:31 PM, Michael Schlenker wrote:
> Am 17.03.2010 um 00:29 schrieb Zi Ree:
>
>
>> Am Mittwoch 17 März 2010 00:21:42 schrieb Glen Canaday:
>>
>>  
>>> Most of the people I have known in SL shop, go to clubs, create, RP, and
>>> hang out, most of which requires chatting without an extra step to
>>> switch focus. Leaving the chat bar with focus kills wasd movement, but I
>>> can name no one who doesn't use the arrow keys for that.
>>>
>> What I usually do is having the chat bar hidden, walk around with WASD or
>> cursor keys, whatever is appropriate at that moment, and call the chat bar up
>> by pressing Enter when I need it. That's one thing I would lve to see coming
>> back in 2.0. Autohide chat bar.
>>  
> +1 Was the first thing i missed from 2.0.
>
> Michael
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Re: [opensource-dev] Fixing the 2.0 chat bar focus problem?

[Tigro Spottystripes]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

besides WASD i'm also already used to have to press a key before
writting my chat messages and then only after i send it i can use the
mvoement keys again, that is quite common in games

On 16/3/2010 20:21, Glen Canaday wrote:
> Maybe it's *my* bias. I personally know of no gamers who'd use wasd who 
> have stayed in SL longer than a couple of months at best.
> 
> Most of the people I have known in SL shop, go to clubs, create, RP, and 
> hang out, most of which requires chatting without an extra step to 
> switch focus. Leaving the chat bar with focus kills wasd movement, but I 
> can name no one who doesn't use the arrow keys for that.
> 
> Survey?
> 
> On 03/16/2010 07:10 PM, Tigro Spottystripes wrote:
> that's new to me...
> 
> perhaps my sample is biased due to me hanging around people with similar
> interests (i do like to play computer/video games)
> 
> On 16/3/2010 19:41, Glen Canaday wrote:
>
 That's an annoyance I'd like to specifically target in snowglobe 2. The
 majority of resis in SL were never gamers so never got used to wasd
 movement.

 --GC

 On 03/16/2010 03:42 PM, Argent Stonecutter wrote:
  
> OK, here's a design problem in the new viewer that maybe can be
> figured out here.
>
>From the Jira, I missed this response to one of my comments, some
> time ago. Apologies, I forgot to "watch" the item:
>
>From Q Linden:
>
>
>> Argent: the focus problem differs this time because the chat bar is
>> always present; we have no mechanism to make it go away, so if we
>> always gave it focus it would block normal keyboard use. Personally,
>> I'm an AWSD movement person, so I actually find this works really
>> well for me. It's not quite as obviously wrong as you seem to think.
>> However, I understand the use case and we'll talk about it internally.
>>
>>  
> This is exactly the same problem that we had the last two times. This
> is exactly the same discussion we had the last two times. There are
> many many people who never use any of the keyboard accelerators in SL,
> and always have the chat bar up and in focus. The chat bar focus NEVER
> goes away. For us, normal keyboard use does not involve anything the
> chat bar blocks.
>
> So, how could this be fixed in the 2.0 viewer without causing
> discombobulation?
>
> An option "chat bar is the default focus"?
>
> What would that actually break?
> ___
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Re: [opensource-dev] Fixing the 2.0 chat bar focus problem?

[Ricky]

I tend to use both wasdec and the arrow keys+pg up/dwn.  Depends on what I'm
doing.  I remember fighting the chat bar all the time in SG1.3, where it
kept stealing focus and getting filled with wwwasssswwee...
etc. while I was trying to pilot my vehicles I was scripting and while I was
occasionally chatting (when my voice wan't working) with my group of
testers.

Having the chatbar always taking focus would be just as much a disaster for
me as it seems it is for you to have it releasing focus so much...
 Although, for me it seems to be perfect the way it is, as I haven't been
fighting it in 2.0: it seems to work the way my mind expects it to.

If there seems to be an issue, then it sounds like a debug setting is in
order.  If enough people seem interested, that can be later exposed in the
UI somewhere.

Ricky
Cron Stardust

On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 4:21 PM, Glen Canaday  wrote:

> Maybe it's *my* bias. I personally know of no gamers who'd use wasd who
> have stayed in SL longer than a couple of months at best.
>
> Most of the people I have known in SL shop, go to clubs, create, RP, and
> hang out, most of which requires chatting without an extra step to
> switch focus. Leaving the chat bar with focus kills wasd movement, but I
> can name no one who doesn't use the arrow keys for that.
>
> Survey?
>
> On 03/16/2010 07:10 PM, Tigro Spottystripes wrote:
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > that's new to me...
> >
> > perhaps my sample is biased due to me hanging around people with similar
> > interests (i do like to play computer/video games)
> >
> > On 16/3/2010 19:41, Glen Canaday wrote:
> >
> >> That's an annoyance I'd like to specifically target in snowglobe 2. The
> >> majority of resis in SL were never gamers so never got used to wasd
> >> movement.
> >>
> >> --GC
> >>
> >> On 03/16/2010 03:42 PM, Argent Stonecutter wrote:
> >>
> >>> OK, here's a design problem in the new viewer that maybe can be
> >>> figured out here.
> >>>
> >>>From the Jira, I missed this response to one of my comments, some
> >>> time ago. Apologies, I forgot to "watch" the item:
> >>>
> >>>From Q Linden:
> >>>
> >>>
>  Argent: the focus problem differs this time because the chat bar is
>  always present; we have no mechanism to make it go away, so if we
>  always gave it focus it would block normal keyboard use. Personally,
>  I'm an AWSD movement person, so I actually find this works really
>  well for me. It's not quite as obviously wrong as you seem to think.
>  However, I understand the use case and we'll talk about it internally.
> 
> 
> >>> This is exactly the same problem that we had the last two times. This
> >>> is exactly the same discussion we had the last two times. There are
> >>> many many people who never use any of the keyboard accelerators in SL,
> >>> and always have the chat bar up and in focus. The chat bar focus NEVER
> >>> goes away. For us, normal keyboard use does not involve anything the
> >>> chat bar blocks.
> >>>
> >>> So, how could this be fixed in the 2.0 viewer without causing
> >>> discombobulation?
> >>>
> >>> An option "chat bar is the default focus"?
> >>>
> >>> What would that actually break?
> >>> ___
> >>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
> >>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
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> >
> > iEYEARECAAYFAkugD9sACgkQ8ZFfSrFHsmWe2ACfWXcGjN7TjfQ1jDslHQa4Pav1
> > kLsAn3I6rUdVhWj1hZaGQk7fzZ0dOE4V
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Re: [opensource-dev] Fixing the 2.0 chat bar focus problem?

[Argent Stonecutter]

On 2010-03-16, at 18:45, Tigro Spottystripes wrote:
> besides WASD i'm also already used to have to press a key before
> writting my chat messages and then only after i send it i can use the
> mvoement keys again, that is quite common in games

I'm not a gamer, and I guess the people I hang around with aren't  
gamers either, because hardly any of us use WASD and we all hated  
jumping around like mad things when the chat focus got broken in the  
past.

Having to hit return to start chatting is just completely alien.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Fixing the 2.0 chat bar focus problem?

[Tigro Spottystripes]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

isn't that an option in 1.* ?

On 16/3/2010 20:54, Ricky wrote:
> I tend to use both wasdec and the arrow keys+pg up/dwn.  Depends on what
> I'm doing.  I remember fighting the chat bar all the time in SG1.3,
> where it kept stealing focus and getting filled with
> wwwasssswwee... etc. while I was trying to pilot my
> vehicles I was scripting and while I was occasionally chatting (when my
> voice wan't working) with my group of testers.
> 
> Having the chatbar always taking focus would be just as much a disaster
> for me as it seems it is for you to have it releasing focus so much...
>  Although, for me it seems to be perfect the way it is, as I haven't
> been fighting it in 2.0: it seems to work the way my mind expects it to.
> 
> If there seems to be an issue, then it sounds like a debug setting is in
> order.  If enough people seem interested, that can be later exposed in
> the UI somewhere.
> 
> Ricky
> Cron Stardust
> 
> On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 4:21 PM, Glen Canaday  > wrote:
> 
> Maybe it's *my* bias. I personally know of no gamers who'd use wasd who
> have stayed in SL longer than a couple of months at best.
> 
> Most of the people I have known in SL shop, go to clubs, create, RP, and
> hang out, most of which requires chatting without an extra step to
> switch focus. Leaving the chat bar with focus kills wasd movement, but I
> can name no one who doesn't use the arrow keys for that.
> 
> Survey?
> 
> On 03/16/2010 07:10 PM, Tigro Spottystripes wrote:
> that's new to me...
> 
> perhaps my sample is biased due to me hanging around people with
>> similar
> interests (i do like to play computer/video games)
> 
> On 16/3/2010 19:41, Glen Canaday wrote:
> 
>> >> That's an annoyance I'd like to specifically target in snowglobe
>> 2. The
>> >> majority of resis in SL were never gamers so never got used to wasd
>> >> movement.
>> >>
>> >> --GC
>> >>
>> >> On 03/16/2010 03:42 PM, Argent Stonecutter wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> OK, here's a design problem in the new viewer that maybe can be
>> >>> figured out here.
>> >>>
>> >>>From the Jira, I missed this response to one of my comments, some
>> >>> time ago. Apologies, I forgot to "watch" the item:
>> >>>
>> >>>From Q Linden:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>>  Argent: the focus problem differs this time because the chat bar is
>>  always present; we have no mechanism to make it go away, so if we
>>  always gave it focus it would block normal keyboard use.
>> Personally,
>>  I'm an AWSD movement person, so I actually find this works really
>>  well for me. It's not quite as obviously wrong as you seem to
>> think.
>>  However, I understand the use case and we'll talk about it
>> internally.
>> 
>> 
>> >>> This is exactly the same problem that we had the last two times.
>> This
>> >>> is exactly the same discussion we had the last two times. There are
>> >>> many many people who never use any of the keyboard accelerators
>> in SL,
>> >>> and always have the chat bar up and in focus. The chat bar focus
>> NEVER
>> >>> goes away. For us, normal keyboard use does not involve anything the
>> >>> chat bar blocks.
>> >>>
>> >>> So, how could this be fixed in the 2.0 viewer without causing
>> >>> discombobulation?
>> >>>
>> >>> An option "chat bar is the default focus"?
>> >>>
>> >>> What would that actually break?
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Re: [opensource-dev] Fixing the 2.0 chat bar focus problem?

[Ricky]

Wow, my POV was that they had finally fixed the problem... :P

To me hitting enter to chat seemed so natural that it wasn''t until I read
the JIRA, and saw the messages on this list, that I'd realized that the
situation had changed.  Like I said above, the prevous functionality would
end up with me slamming my escape key so I could actually go /do/ something.

Another thing I am absolutely enjoying: Arrow keys now actually WORK in the
chatbar: I can fix my typos without having to grab my mouse, or having my
avvie turn/walk/etc. before I noticed that the focus was lost...

Like I said above, let's get this into a Debug Setting ASAP, then discuss
where it should go in the UI.  I know there at least a few who
work differently than I! :)

Ricky
Cron Stardust

On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 4:55 PM, Argent Stonecutter  wrote:

> On 2010-03-16, at 18:45, Tigro Spottystripes wrote:
> > besides WASD i'm also already used to have to press a key before
> > writting my chat messages and then only after i send it i can use the
> > mvoement keys again, that is quite common in games
>
> I'm not a gamer, and I guess the people I hang around with aren't
> gamers either, because hardly any of us use WASD and we all hated
> jumping around like mad things when the chat focus got broken in the
> past.
>
> Having to hit return to start chatting is just completely alien.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Fixing the 2.0 chat bar focus problem?

[Boroondas Gupte]

On 03/17/2010 01:25 AM, Ricky wrote:
> Another thing I am absolutely enjoying: Arrow keys now actually WORK
> in the chatbar: I can fix my typos without having to grab my mouse, or
> having my avvie turn/walk/etc. before I noticed that the focus was lost...
There's actually a setting for that in 1.x:
Preferences, tab *Text Chat*, [ ] *Arrow keys always move avatar when
chatting*

cheers
Boroondas
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Re: [opensource-dev] Fixing the 2.0 chat bar focus problem?

[Ricky]

Ah, seems in all the sweeps of the prefs I've done over the years, I missed
that!

Interesting I can't find such a setting in the 2.0 prefs.  Found it in the
Debug Settings: ArrowKeysAlwaysMove (default to FALSE)

I also found ChatBarStealsFocus (default to TRUE) but it doesn't seem to
affect anything I can detect...  In fact... There are a LOT of
Debug Settings that seem abandoned, all based around UI changes.

Ricky
Cron Stardust

On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Boroondas Gupte  wrote:

>  On 03/17/2010 01:25 AM, Ricky wrote:
>
> Another thing I am absolutely enjoying: Arrow keys now actually WORK in the
> chatbar: I can fix my typos without having to grab my mouse, or having my
> avvie turn/walk/etc. before I noticed that the focus was lost...
>
> There's actually a setting for that in 1.x:
> Preferences, tab *Text Chat*, [ ] *Arrow keys always move avatar when
> chatting*
>
> cheers
> Boroondas
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 1.4 trunk build

[John Hurliman]

Thanks for this! I was just about to modify SimianGrid to use all lowercase
URLs :-).

John

On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 11:46 AM, Philippe (Merov) Bossut <
me...@lindenlab.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> There were a couple of parabuild (build farm machinery) issues that tripped
> me for a while. Those have been fixed now and we were able to build
> Snowglobe 1.4 trunk for the 3 platforms. Remember that 1.4 is the "1.x"
> based trunk that we keep building as long as we don't have a perfectly
> stable and complete 2.0.
>
> The most significant fix in that build is :
>SNOW-551: Don't lowercase the loginuri command line argument
>
> Downloads:
>
> Windows:
> http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2010/trunk/3229/Snowglobe_1-4-0-3229_Setup.exe
> Darwin:
> http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2010/trunk/3229/Snowglobe_1_4_0_3229_SNOWGLOBETESTBUILD.dmg
> Linux:
> http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2010/trunk/3229/Snowglobe-i686-1.4.0.3229.tar.bz2
>
> Cheers,
> - Merov
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Anders Arnholm]

Gareth Nelson wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 10:03 PM, Glen Canaday  wrote:
>
> But back on topic - regardless of all our unique individual political
> views on copyright, it's definitely a bad bad idea for LL to encourage
> copyright infringement on their platform - or anything illegal for
> that matter - this is something we can agree on, yes?
>
>   
Definitely, copyright crimes hurt the small players most.

> I'd hope another thing to be agreed on is that it's not good to
> implement strong DRM measures and cripple legit users while at most
> slowing down temporarily those who want to break the rules - yay or
> nay?
>   
I argue hard against DRM as it only hurts legitimate users and not the 
once breaking rules. They already breaks rules, so why not this as well..


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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Anders Arnholm]

Tigro Spottystripes wrote:
> isn't that actually fair use?
>
>   
Yes most copyright laws allow you to make a personel riped copy of a 
movie. In the Us maybe the DMCA makes the tools for this illegal to make 
and sell. I'm not 100% about all details of US copyright law. I know the 
Swedish copyright laws much bettter.

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Re: [opensource-dev] Fixing the 2.0 chat bar focus problem?

[Anders Arnholm]

Glen Canaday wrote:
> Maybe it's *my* bias. I personally know of no gamers who'd use wasd who 
> have stayed in SL longer than a couple of months at best.
>
> Most of the people I have known in SL shop, go to clubs, create, RP, and 
> hang out, most of which requires chatting without an extra step to 
> switch focus. Leaving the chat bar with focus kills wasd movement, but I 
> can name no one who doesn't use the arrow keys for that.
>
>   
Roleplayers rage form the combate users, thert need wasd, DCS/CCS 
enviroemnt, to many others. WASD is the only you can use if you have the 
mouse to the right, as most righthanded people have.


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