Re: What do you think?

[Cody]

They've put too much effert into this to F it up and they'll have hell if they 
don't keep up with it and not to mentioin lose a load of customers
  - Original Message - 
  From: Rob Lambert 
  To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 2:08 AM
  Subject: What do you think?


  I just got wind, from a friend of mine, that the only reason Apple is 
accessible to us is because of a lawsuit by the NFB. The term of the agreement 
was for accessibility improvements for three years. Here's a question. First, 
what's your side of this ordeal? Second, who thinks Apple will keep up with the 
accessibility improvements after this three year term is up? I apologize for 
making smooth waters mirky, I just wanted to know what your take on this was.  

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Re: NLS DTB players, usb flash drives, formating on a mac, cartrage errors Help?

[Iain Murray]

Hi all
There is an iPhone daisy player starting beta testing now. Created by the same 
people as Olearia at Curtin Uni, but a complete re-write. Its not fully 
functional yet but very close. NLS support is planned btw. 
On 12/04/2010, at 8:57 AM, Frank Tom wrote:

> Hi there,
> 
> I don't know anything about windows formating, but I do about the NLS player. 
>  I use 4 gjig thumbn drives without any problems. I insert them in the same 
> slot as the regular cartridges go. This way they are protected; a little more 
> difficult to get them in and out but a lot safer.  According to NLS, larger 
> thumb drives will give you a problem. 
> 
> I bought a three pack at Costco for around 30 dollars.
> 
> I was sure hoping for an I Phone daisy NLS app but I don't think it will ever 
> happen. 
> 
> Tom Frank
> vermont...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Apr 11, 2010, at 10:02 AM, Jenny Kennedy(Howard) wrote:
> 
>> Good morning everyone,
>> 
>> Thanks for the suggestion of the kingston data traveler I plan to
>> obtain one as soon as I am able.  What size is best?  Also why will
>> the two flash drives I currently have format and work fine in the dtb
>> player if they are formated on a windows computer but give me cartrage
>> errors galore if done on a Mac? And Jesssica I have the same weird
>> problem you spoke to.  I'll remove books off a flash drive but the
>> flash drive still is full even tho there are no dtbs on it. What's up
>> with that? And apart from reformatting the silly thing is there
>> anything to be done for it?  Sorry so full of questions... I am very
>> thankful for the help :-)
>> 
>> Ms. Jenny Kennedy
>> Kansas City, Ks
>> 
>> -- 
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>> 
> 
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> 

Dr Iain Murray (B.Eng)(Hons) Ph.D(Curtin) MIEEE
Senior Lecturer
Course Co-ordinator - Bachelor of Technology (Computer Systems & Networking)
Rehabilitation Engineering & Assistive Technology Research Laboratory
Department of Electrical & Computer Engineering
Curtin University of Technology
GPO Box U1987
Perth 6845 WA
Australia
Ph +61 8 92664540
Fax +61 8 92662584
email i.mur...@curtin.edu.au
web http://www.cucat.org



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<>

Re: What do you think?

[Nicolai Svendsen]

Hi,

I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been around for six 
years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to do with it. Apple is going to 
keep it up because they are committed. The article about the lawsuit doesn't 
actually mention Apple much.

There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a threat to the NFB of 
taking over the technical market. This is why NFB did not sue Skype, but Apple. 
Agreement or not, I'm pretty sure they listened to users using Outspoken and 
such, rather than an organization that can't even review the product properly 
when it is out. Apple has done far more than anyone for accessibility 
improvements. Apple said they had something in store, and they sure did. I of 
course realize that it is a pretty serious statement. Of course, I am not 
particularly a fan of the NFB at all. Saying that, NFB has made some seriously 
inaccurate statements as well, far outweighing mine. NFB actually has no reason 
to sue Apple. What would they sue them for, exactly? Because their products are 
accessible, and they want everyone to pay more than what a Macbook costs for 
assistive technology? That wouldn't actually surprise me much. It's all about 
competition. If they think they're about to be kicked out, of course they would 
consider Apple a threat. Because Apple has done something Microsoft has not. 
All these things sound really twisted and disgusting to me.

Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to do with iTunes 
on the Windows side. Fair enough, but that is a pretty ridiculous suit if it 
really is based on accessibility. That is not the case, however, as there are 
plenty of other useful programs for PCs that are not anywhere near as 
accessible as iTunes 9. And NFB doesn't care about that. Which, again, leads me 
to believe that, because NFB is scared of being kicked out, they do everything 
they can to stop people buying their product. That would make sense.

Windows users rely on scripts all the time to use any application. I suggest 
you look through your jAWS folder to see what I mean. Have you even seen just 
the download size of a JAWS installation? It's outrageous. People who moan 
about iTunes not being accessible just because the interface accidentally 
broke, just need to use scripts like they do for everything else. I'm surprised 
that wasn't their first complaint. JAWS, or just Windows in general, isn't even 
that stable. If JAWS crashes, it's stupidly difficult most of the time to 
reload the product. Even if you manage to do so, you will probably run into the 
screen not being read correctly when reading list boxes or with the cursor. Or, 
the worst-case scenario. You have to uninstall JAWS 11 after attempting to 
install Video Intercept, reinstall JAWS 10, install VIdeo Intercept, uninstall 
JAWS 10 then reinstall JAWS 11.

Maybe I'm slamming the NFB a bit, but really, they need a kick in the ass. I'm 
just happy the Danish blindness organizations are not this corrupt and twisted, 
and they actually review fairly and take a proper look at what a company offers 
before suing them. I'll always be negative about the NFB, though I am actually 
being neutral when talking about the actual lawsuit itself.

Say what you want to, it won't change my mind. Even if it is someone from NFB 
saying it. Some NFB people are great. Some do incredibly good reviews. Some 
don't. And in whole, I think the organization just sucks for filing unnecessary 
lawsuits for nothing. Maybe I'm going on a childish tantrum here, perhaps. But 
once in a while, you need to. A company is trying to provide great 
accessibility for their products, and they are sued because of one problem. 
iTunes is actually still useful on the Windows side, people. Quit your darn 
nitpicking.

Regards,
Nic
Skype: Kvalme
MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
AIM: cincinster
yahoo Messenger: cin368
Facebook Profile
My Twitter

On Apr 15, 2010, at 8:08 AM, Rob Lambert wrote:

> I just got wind, from a friend of mine, that the only reason Apple is 
> accessible to us is because of a lawsuit by the NFB. The term of the 
> agreement was for accessibility improvements for three years. Here's a 
> question. First, what's your side of this ordeal? Second, who thinks Apple 
> will keep up with the accessibility improvements after this three year term 
> is up? I apologize for making smooth waters mirky, I just wanted to know what 
> your take on this was. 
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at 
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Re: What do you think?

[Anne Robertson]

Hello Nic,

Thank you for this post. You've just saved me from going on a major rant along 
the same lines.

Cheers,

Anne

On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been around for 
> six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to do with it. Apple is 
> going to keep it up because they are committed. The article about the lawsuit 
> doesn't actually mention Apple much.
> 
> There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a threat to the NFB 
> of taking over the technical market. This is why NFB did not sue Skype, but 
> Apple. Agreement or not, I'm pretty sure they listened to users using 
> Outspoken and such, rather than an organization that can't even review the 
> product properly when it is out. Apple has done far more than anyone for 
> accessibility improvements. Apple said they had something in store, and they 
> sure did. I of course realize that it is a pretty serious statement. Of 
> course, I am not particularly a fan of the NFB at all. Saying that, NFB has 
> made some seriously inaccurate statements as well, far outweighing mine. NFB 
> actually has no reason to sue Apple. What would they sue them for, exactly? 
> Because their products are accessible, and they want everyone to pay more 
> than what a Macbook costs for assistive technology? That wouldn't actually 
> surprise me much. It's all about competition. If they think they're about to 
> be kicked out, of course they would consider Apple a threat. Because Apple 
> has done something Microsoft has not. All these things sound really twisted 
> and disgusting to me.
> 
> Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to do with 
> iTunes on the Windows side. Fair enough, but that is a pretty ridiculous suit 
> if it really is based on accessibility. That is not the case, however, as 
> there are plenty of other useful programs for PCs that are not anywhere near 
> as accessible as iTunes 9. And NFB doesn't care about that. Which, again, 
> leads me to believe that, because NFB is scared of being kicked out, they do 
> everything they can to stop people buying their product. That would make 
> sense.
> 
> Windows users rely on scripts all the time to use any application. I suggest 
> you look through your jAWS folder to see what I mean. Have you even seen just 
> the download size of a JAWS installation? It's outrageous. People who moan 
> about iTunes not being accessible just because the interface accidentally 
> broke, just need to use scripts like they do for everything else. I'm 
> surprised that wasn't their first complaint. JAWS, or just Windows in 
> general, isn't even that stable. If JAWS crashes, it's stupidly difficult 
> most of the time to reload the product. Even if you manage to do so, you will 
> probably run into the screen not being read correctly when reading list boxes 
> or with the cursor. Or, the worst-case scenario. You have to uninstall JAWS 
> 11 after attempting to install Video Intercept, reinstall JAWS 10, install 
> VIdeo Intercept, uninstall JAWS 10 then reinstall JAWS 11.
> 
> Maybe I'm slamming the NFB a bit, but really, they need a kick in the ass. 
> I'm just happy the Danish blindness organizations are not this corrupt and 
> twisted, and they actually review fairly and take a proper look at what a 
> company offers before suing them. I'll always be negative about the NFB, 
> though I am actually being neutral when talking about the actual lawsuit 
> itself.
> 
> Say what you want to, it won't change my mind. Even if it is someone from NFB 
> saying it. Some NFB people are great. Some do incredibly good reviews. Some 
> don't. And in whole, I think the organization just sucks for filing 
> unnecessary lawsuits for nothing. Maybe I'm going on a childish tantrum here, 
> perhaps. But once in a while, you need to. A company is trying to provide 
> great accessibility for their products, and they are sued because of one 
> problem. iTunes is actually still useful on the Windows side, people. Quit 
> your darn nitpicking.
> 
> Regards,
> Nic
> Skype: Kvalme
> MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
> AIM: cincinster
> yahoo Messenger: cin368
> Facebook Profile
> My Twitter
> 
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 8:08 AM, Rob Lambert wrote:
> 
>> I just got wind, from a friend of mine, that the only reason Apple is 
>> accessible to us is because of a lawsuit by the NFB. The term of the 
>> agreement was for accessibility improvements for three years. Here's a 
>> question. First, what's your side of this ordeal? Second, who thinks Apple 
>> will keep up with the accessibility improvements after this three year term 
>> is up? I apologize for making smooth waters mirky, I just wanted to know 
>> what your take on this was. 
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
>

Re: What do you think?

[Rob Lambert]

I apologize if I opened a can of worms.

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 12:30 AM, Anne Robertson wrote:

> Hello Nic,
>
> Thank you for this post. You've just saved me from going on a major rant
> along the same lines.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Anne
>
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been around
> for six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to do with it. Apple
> is going to keep it up because they are committed. The article about the
> lawsuit doesn't actually mention Apple much.
> >
> > There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a threat to the
> NFB of taking over the technical market. This is why NFB did not sue Skype,
> but Apple. Agreement or not, I'm pretty sure they listened to users using
> Outspoken and such, rather than an organization that can't even review the
> product properly when it is out. Apple has done far more than anyone for
> accessibility improvements. Apple said they had something in store, and they
> sure did. I of course realize that it is a pretty serious statement. Of
> course, I am not particularly a fan of the NFB at all. Saying that, NFB has
> made some seriously inaccurate statements as well, far outweighing mine. NFB
> actually has no reason to sue Apple. What would they sue them for, exactly?
> Because their products are accessible, and they want everyone to pay more
> than what a Macbook costs for assistive technology? That wouldn't actually
> surprise me much. It's all about competition. If they think they're about to
> be kicked out, of course they would consider Apple a threat. Because Apple
> has done something Microsoft has not. All these things sound really twisted
> and disgusting to me.
> >
> > Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to do with
> iTunes on the Windows side. Fair enough, but that is a pretty ridiculous
> suit if it really is based on accessibility. That is not the case, however,
> as there are plenty of other useful programs for PCs that are not anywhere
> near as accessible as iTunes 9. And NFB doesn't care about that. Which,
> again, leads me to believe that, because NFB is scared of being kicked out,
> they do everything they can to stop people buying their product. That would
> make sense.
> >
> > Windows users rely on scripts all the time to use any application. I
> suggest you look through your jAWS folder to see what I mean. Have you even
> seen just the download size of a JAWS installation? It's outrageous. People
> who moan about iTunes not being accessible just because the interface
> accidentally broke, just need to use scripts like they do for everything
> else. I'm surprised that wasn't their first complaint. JAWS, or just Windows
> in general, isn't even that stable. If JAWS crashes, it's stupidly difficult
> most of the time to reload the product. Even if you manage to do so, you
> will probably run into the screen not being read correctly when reading list
> boxes or with the cursor. Or, the worst-case scenario. You have to uninstall
> JAWS 11 after attempting to install Video Intercept, reinstall JAWS 10,
> install VIdeo Intercept, uninstall JAWS 10 then reinstall JAWS 11.
> >
> > Maybe I'm slamming the NFB a bit, but really, they need a kick in the
> ass. I'm just happy the Danish blindness organizations are not this corrupt
> and twisted, and they actually review fairly and take a proper look at what
> a company offers before suing them. I'll always be negative about the NFB,
> though I am actually being neutral when talking about the actual lawsuit
> itself.
> >
> > Say what you want to, it won't change my mind. Even if it is someone from
> NFB saying it. Some NFB people are great. Some do incredibly good reviews.
> Some don't. And in whole, I think the organization just sucks for filing
> unnecessary lawsuits for nothing. Maybe I'm going on a childish tantrum
> here, perhaps. But once in a while, you need to. A company is trying to
> provide great accessibility for their products, and they are sued because of
> one problem. iTunes is actually still useful on the Windows side, people.
> Quit your darn nitpicking.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Nic
> > Skype: Kvalme
> > MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
> > AIM: cincinster
> > yahoo Messenger: cin368
> > Facebook Profile
> > My Twitter
> >
> > On Apr 15, 2010, at 8:08 AM, Rob Lambert wrote:
> >
> >> I just got wind, from a friend of mine, that the only reason Apple is
> accessible to us is because of a lawsuit by the NFB. The term of the
> agreement was for accessibility improvements for three years. Here's a
> question. First, what's your side of this ordeal? Second, who thinks Apple
> will keep up with the accessibility improvements after this three year term
> is up? I apologize for making smooth waters mirky, I just wanted to know
> what your take on this was.
> >>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups 

Re: What do you think?

[Cody]

Takes a deep breath.

Oh yeah, like the damn nfb cares. if they cared so much, then why don't 
training centers demo macs.


It's call money. I hate the * nfb.
- Original Message - 
From: "Anne Robertson" 

To: 
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 3:30 AM
Subject: Re: What do you think?


Hello Nic,

Thank you for this post. You've just saved me from going on a major rant 
along the same lines.


Cheers,

Anne

On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:


Hi,

I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been around 
for six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to do with it. 
Apple is going to keep it up because they are committed. The article about 
the lawsuit doesn't actually mention Apple much.


There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a threat to the 
NFB of taking over the technical market. This is why NFB did not sue 
Skype, but Apple. Agreement or not, I'm pretty sure they listened to users 
using Outspoken and such, rather than an organization that can't even 
review the product properly when it is out. Apple has done far more than 
anyone for accessibility improvements. Apple said they had something in 
store, and they sure did. I of course realize that it is a pretty serious 
statement. Of course, I am not particularly a fan of the NFB at all. 
Saying that, NFB has made some seriously inaccurate statements as well, 
far outweighing mine. NFB actually has no reason to sue Apple. What would 
they sue them for, exactly? Because their products are accessible, and 
they want everyone to pay more than what a Macbook costs for assistive 
technology? That wouldn't actually surprise me much. It's all about 
competition. If they think they're about to be kicked out, of course they 
would consider Apple a threat. Because Apple has done something Microsoft 
has not. All these things sound really twisted and disgusting to me.


Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to do with 
iTunes on the Windows side. Fair enough, but that is a pretty ridiculous 
suit if it really is based on accessibility. That is not the case, 
however, as there are plenty of other useful programs for PCs that are not 
anywhere near as accessible as iTunes 9. And NFB doesn't care about that. 
Which, again, leads me to believe that, because NFB is scared of being 
kicked out, they do everything they can to stop people buying their 
product. That would make sense.


Windows users rely on scripts all the time to use any application. I 
suggest you look through your jAWS folder to see what I mean. Have you 
even seen just the download size of a JAWS installation? It's outrageous. 
People who moan about iTunes not being accessible just because the 
interface accidentally broke, just need to use scripts like they do for 
everything else. I'm surprised that wasn't their first complaint. JAWS, or 
just Windows in general, isn't even that stable. If JAWS crashes, it's 
stupidly difficult most of the time to reload the product. Even if you 
manage to do so, you will probably run into the screen not being read 
correctly when reading list boxes or with the cursor. Or, the worst-case 
scenario. You have to uninstall JAWS 11 after attempting to install Video 
Intercept, reinstall JAWS 10, install VIdeo Intercept, uninstall JAWS 10 
then reinstall JAWS 11.


Maybe I'm slamming the NFB a bit, but really, they need a kick in the ass. 
I'm just happy the Danish blindness organizations are not this corrupt and 
twisted, and they actually review fairly and take a proper look at what a 
company offers before suing them. I'll always be negative about the NFB, 
though I am actually being neutral when talking about the actual lawsuit 
itself.


Say what you want to, it won't change my mind. Even if it is someone from 
NFB saying it. Some NFB people are great. Some do incredibly good reviews. 
Some don't. And in whole, I think the organization just sucks for filing 
unnecessary lawsuits for nothing. Maybe I'm going on a childish tantrum 
here, perhaps. But once in a while, you need to. A company is trying to 
provide great accessibility for their products, and they are sued because 
of one problem. iTunes is actually still useful on the Windows side, 
people. Quit your darn nitpicking.


Regards,
Nic
Skype: Kvalme
MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
AIM: cincinster
yahoo Messenger: cin368
Facebook Profile
My Twitter

On Apr 15, 2010, at 8:08 AM, Rob Lambert wrote:

I just got wind, from a friend of mine, that the only reason Apple is 
accessible to us is because of a lawsuit by the NFB. The term of the 
agreement was for accessibility improvements for three years. Here's a 
question. First, what's your side of this ordeal? Second, who thinks 
Apple will keep up with the accessibility improvements after this three 
year term is up? I apologize for making smooth waters mirky, I just 
wanted to know what your take on this was.


--
You received this message because you are subs

Re: What do you think?

[Charlie Doremus]

I would also like to thank you, Nic, for saving my bacon. Like Anne I was going 
to take issue with NFB and others who love to gripe for the sake of griping. 
You saved me from being called tactless twice in the same week. Even though I 
don't use Jaws the idea of uninstall, install, uninstall, install, no matter 
what program, gives me the creeps. 

Sent from the iPad I wish I had

On Apr 14, 2010, at 9:30 PM, Anne Robertson  wrote:

> Hello Nic,
> 
> Thank you for this post. You've just saved me from going on a major rant 
> along the same lines.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Anne
> 
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been around for 
>> six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to do with it. Apple is 
>> going to keep it up because they are committed. The article about the 
>> lawsuit doesn't actually mention Apple much.
>> 
>> There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a threat to the NFB 
>> of taking over the technical market. This is why NFB did not sue Skype, but 
>> Apple. Agreement or not, I'm pretty sure they listened to users using 
>> Outspoken and such, rather than an organization that can't even review the 
>> product properly when it is out. Apple has done far more than anyone for 
>> accessibility improvements. Apple said they had something in store, and they 
>> sure did. I of course realize that it is a pretty serious statement. Of 
>> course, I am not particularly a fan of the NFB at all. Saying that, NFB has 
>> made some seriously inaccurate statements as well, far outweighing mine. NFB 
>> actually has no reason to sue Apple. What would they sue them for, exactly? 
>> Because their products are accessible, and they want everyone to pay more 
>> than what a Macbook costs for assistive technology? That wouldn't actually 
>> surprise me much. It's all about competition. If they think they're about to 
>> be kicked out, of course they would consider Apple a threat. Because Apple 
>> has done something Microsoft has not. All these things sound really twisted 
>> and disgusting to me.
>> 
>> Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to do with 
>> iTunes on the Windows side. Fair enough, but that is a pretty ridiculous 
>> suit if it really is based on accessibility. That is not the case, however, 
>> as there are plenty of other useful programs for PCs that are not anywhere 
>> near as accessible as iTunes 9. And NFB doesn't care about that. Which, 
>> again, leads me to believe that, because NFB is scared of being kicked out, 
>> they do everything they can to stop people buying their product. That would 
>> make sense.
>> 
>> Windows users rely on scripts all the time to use any application. I suggest 
>> you look through your jAWS folder to see what I mean. Have you even seen 
>> just the download size of a JAWS installation? It's outrageous. People who 
>> moan about iTunes not being accessible just because the interface 
>> accidentally broke, just need to use scripts like they do for everything 
>> else. I'm surprised that wasn't their first complaint. JAWS, or just Windows 
>> in general, isn't even that stable. If JAWS crashes, it's stupidly difficult 
>> most of the time to reload the product. Even if you manage to do so, you 
>> will probably run into the screen not being read correctly when reading list 
>> boxes or with the cursor. Or, the worst-case scenario. You have to uninstall 
>> JAWS 11 after attempting to install Video Intercept, reinstall JAWS 10, 
>> install VIdeo Intercept, uninstall JAWS 10 then reinstall JAWS 11.
>> 
>> Maybe I'm slamming the NFB a bit, but really, they need a kick in the ass. 
>> I'm just happy the Danish blindness organizations are not this corrupt and 
>> twisted, and they actually review fairly and take a proper look at what a 
>> company offers before suing them. I'll always be negative about the NFB, 
>> though I am actually being neutral when talking about the actual lawsuit 
>> itself.
>> 
>> Say what you want to, it won't change my mind. Even if it is someone from 
>> NFB saying it. Some NFB people are great. Some do incredibly good reviews. 
>> Some don't. And in whole, I think the organization just sucks for filing 
>> unnecessary lawsuits for nothing. Maybe I'm going on a childish tantrum 
>> here, perhaps. But once in a while, you need to. A company is trying to 
>> provide great accessibility for their products, and they are sued because of 
>> one problem. iTunes is actually still useful on the Windows side, people. 
>> Quit your darn nitpicking.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Nic
>> Skype: Kvalme
>> MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
>> AIM: cincinster
>> yahoo Messenger: cin368
>> Facebook Profile
>> My Twitter
>> 
>> On Apr 15, 2010, at 8:08 AM, Rob Lambert wrote:
>> 
>>> I just got wind, from a friend of mine, that the only reason Apple is 
>>> accessible to us is because of a lawsuit by the NFB. The term of th

Re: What do you think?

[Cody]

lol, that made me chuckle a bit.

nfb have so many issues and I feel bad for the newly blinded who don't know 
any better, but they can't f those who've been blind over. I walked out of 
the training center in mississippi giving them the finger.
- Original Message - 
From: "Charlie Doremus" 

To: 
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 4:12 AM
Subject: Re: What do you think?


I would also like to thank you, Nic, for saving my bacon. Like Anne I was 
going to take issue with NFB and others who love to gripe for the sake of 
griping. You saved me from being called tactless twice in the same week. 
Even though I don't use Jaws the idea of uninstall, install, uninstall, 
install, no matter what program, gives me the creeps.


Sent from the iPad I wish I had

On Apr 14, 2010, at 9:30 PM, Anne Robertson  wrote:


Hello Nic,

Thank you for this post. You've just saved me from going on a major rant 
along the same lines.


Cheers,

Anne

On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:


Hi,

I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been around 
for six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to do with it. 
Apple is going to keep it up because they are committed. The article 
about the lawsuit doesn't actually mention Apple much.


There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a threat to the 
NFB of taking over the technical market. This is why NFB did not sue 
Skype, but Apple. Agreement or not, I'm pretty sure they listened to 
users using Outspoken and such, rather than an organization that can't 
even review the product properly when it is out. Apple has done far more 
than anyone for accessibility improvements. Apple said they had something 
in store, and they sure did. I of course realize that it is a pretty 
serious statement. Of course, I am not particularly a fan of the NFB at 
all. Saying that, NFB has made some seriously inaccurate statements as 
well, far outweighing mine. NFB actually has no reason to sue Apple. What 
would they sue them for, exactly? Because their products are accessible, 
and they want everyone to pay more than what a Macbook costs for 
assistive technology? That wouldn't actually surprise me much. It's all 
about competition. If they think they're about to be kicked out, of 
course they would consider Apple a threat. Because Apple has done 
something Microsoft has not. All these things sound really twisted and 
disgusting to me.


Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to do with 
iTunes on the Windows side. Fair enough, but that is a pretty ridiculous 
suit if it really is based on accessibility. That is not the case, 
however, as there are plenty of other useful programs for PCs that are 
not anywhere near as accessible as iTunes 9. And NFB doesn't care about 
that. Which, again, leads me to believe that, because NFB is scared of 
being kicked out, they do everything they can to stop people buying their 
product. That would make sense.


Windows users rely on scripts all the time to use any application. I 
suggest you look through your jAWS folder to see what I mean. Have you 
even seen just the download size of a JAWS installation? It's outrageous. 
People who moan about iTunes not being accessible just because the 
interface accidentally broke, just need to use scripts like they do for 
everything else. I'm surprised that wasn't their first complaint. JAWS, 
or just Windows in general, isn't even that stable. If JAWS crashes, it's 
stupidly difficult most of the time to reload the product. Even if you 
manage to do so, you will probably run into the screen not being read 
correctly when reading list boxes or with the cursor. Or, the worst-case 
scenario. You have to uninstall JAWS 11 after attempting to install Video 
Intercept, reinstall JAWS 10, install VIdeo Intercept, uninstall JAWS 10 
then reinstall JAWS 11.


Maybe I'm slamming the NFB a bit, but really, they need a kick in the 
ass. I'm just happy the Danish blindness organizations are not this 
corrupt and twisted, and they actually review fairly and take a proper 
look at what a company offers before suing them. I'll always be negative 
about the NFB, though I am actually being neutral when talking about the 
actual lawsuit itself.


Say what you want to, it won't change my mind. Even if it is someone from 
NFB saying it. Some NFB people are great. Some do incredibly good 
reviews. Some don't. And in whole, I think the organization just sucks 
for filing unnecessary lawsuits for nothing. Maybe I'm going on a 
childish tantrum here, perhaps. But once in a while, you need to. A 
company is trying to provide great accessibility for their products, and 
they are sued because of one problem. iTunes is actually still useful on 
the Windows side, people. Quit your darn nitpicking.


Regards,
Nic
Skype: Kvalme
MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
AIM: cincinster
yahoo Messenger: cin368
Facebook Profile
My Twitter

On Apr 15, 2010, at 8:08 AM, Rob Lambert wro

Re: What do you think?

[Rob]

Thank you for your input, Nic. Much appreciated. :)

Sent from my iPod

On Apr 15, 2010, at 1:12 AM, Charlie Doremus   
wrote:


I would also like to thank you, Nic, for saving my bacon. Like Anne  
I was going to take issue with NFB and others who love to gripe for  
the sake of griping. You saved me from being called tactless twice  
in the same week. Even though I don't use Jaws the idea of  
uninstall, install, uninstall, install, no matter what program,  
gives me the creeps.


Sent from the iPad I wish I had

On Apr 14, 2010, at 9:30 PM, Anne Robertson   
wrote:



Hello Nic,

Thank you for this post. You've just saved me from going on a major  
rant along the same lines.


Cheers,

Anne

On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:


Hi,

I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been  
around for six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to  
do with it. Apple is going to keep it up because they are  
committed. The article about the lawsuit doesn't actually mention  
Apple much.


There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a threat  
to the NFB of taking over the technical market. This is why NFB  
did not sue Skype, but Apple. Agreement or not, I'm pretty sure  
they listened to users using Outspoken and such, rather than an  
organization that can't even review the product properly when it  
is out. Apple has done far more than anyone for accessibility  
improvements. Apple said they had something in store, and they  
sure did. I of course realize that it is a pretty serious  
statement. Of course, I am not particularly a fan of the NFB at  
all. Saying that, NFB has made some seriously inaccurate  
statements as well, far outweighing mine. NFB actually has no  
reason to sue Apple. What would they sue them for, exactly?  
Because their products are accessible, and they want everyone to  
pay more than what a Macbook costs for assistive technology? That  
wouldn't actually surprise me much. It's all about competition. If  
they think they're about to be kicked out, of course they would  
consider Apple a threat. Because Apple has done something  
Microsoft has not. All these things sound really twisted and  
disgusting to me.


Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to do  
with iTunes on the Windows side. Fair enough, but that is a pretty  
ridiculous suit if it really is based on accessibility. That is  
not the case, however, as there are plenty of other useful  
programs for PCs that are not anywhere near as accessible as  
iTunes 9. And NFB doesn't care about that. Which, again, leads me  
to believe that, because NFB is scared of being kicked out, they  
do everything they can to stop people buying their product. That  
would make sense.


Windows users rely on scripts all the time to use any application.  
I suggest you look through your jAWS folder to see what I mean.  
Have you even seen just the download size of a JAWS installation?  
It's outrageous. People who moan about iTunes not being accessible  
just because the interface accidentally broke, just need to use  
scripts like they do for everything else. I'm surprised that  
wasn't their first complaint. JAWS, or just Windows in general,  
isn't even that stable. If JAWS crashes, it's stupidly difficult  
most of the time to reload the product. Even if you manage to do  
so, you will probably run into the screen not being read correctly  
when reading list boxes or with the cursor. Or, the worst-case  
scenario. You have to uninstall JAWS 11 after attempting to  
install Video Intercept, reinstall JAWS 10, install VIdeo  
Intercept, uninstall JAWS 10 then reinstall JAWS 11.


Maybe I'm slamming the NFB a bit, but really, they need a kick in  
the ass. I'm just happy the Danish blindness organizations are not  
this corrupt and twisted, and they actually review fairly and take  
a proper look at what a company offers before suing them. I'll  
always be negative about the NFB, though I am actually being  
neutral when talking about the actual lawsuit itself.


Say what you want to, it won't change my mind. Even if it is  
someone from NFB saying it. Some NFB people are great. Some do  
incredibly good reviews. Some don't. And in whole, I think the  
organization just sucks for filing unnecessary lawsuits for  
nothing. Maybe I'm going on a childish tantrum here, perhaps. But  
once in a while, you need to. A company is trying to provide great  
accessibility for their products, and they are sued because of one  
problem. iTunes is actually still useful on the Windows side,  
people. Quit your darn nitpicking.


Regards,
Nic
Skype: Kvalme
MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
AIM: cincinster
yahoo Messenger: cin368
Facebook Profile
My Twitter

On Apr 15, 2010, at 8:08 AM, Rob Lambert wrote:

I just got wind, from a friend of mine, that the only reason  
Apple is accessible to us is because of a lawsuit by the NFB. The  
term of the agreement was for accessibility

Re: What do you think?

[James & Nash]

Hi Rob,

Where did your friend get this info from? I would be interested to read this.  
When was the law suit issued? Apple has always had some manner of accessibility 
in their computers I believe with the Outspoken, Screen Reader formally made by 
Alva.  Only since 2005/6 though has Apple used its own Screen Reader.

I don't know, but I suspect that this NFB law suit is a distortion of the facts 
if anything. From what i understand, when Microsoft announced that they wanted 
to develop an in-built accessibility for Windows, the NFB pressured them not to 
continue because they feared that it would be detrimental to venders such as 
Freedom Scientific. However, this may just be a rumour as I cannot find any 
info on this. Your friend might be referring  to the announcement that in 
September 2008, NFB reached an agreement with apple on making ITunes more 
accessible to Blind users which would last for  three years. This agreement was 
only for ITunes though as far as I know.  This agreement came shortly after 
Freedom Scientific's announcement that ITunes would be accessible with JFW. As 
Josh De Lioncourt notes in his September 2008  article "Apple & NFB reach 
agreement on Apple Accessibility",

...NFB made no such fanfare when GW Micro announced its work with Apple on 
ITunes accessibility with Window-Eyes earlier this year,, when that 
accessibility came to fruition earlier this month, or when the vast majority of 
the ITunes application became accessible with Apple's Voice Over Screen Reading 
technology for Mac OS X early in 2007...

Ignoring Apple's (and others') advancements in accessibility still seems to be 
a favourite NFB tactic. This was shown very clearly in NFB's article in the 
June 2009 edition of The Braille Monitor called "Report on the ease of access 
of the Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard environment with Voice Over". Mr.  Majerus' 
comments in this article were not entirely accurate and the article suffered 
from obvious bias and a lack of objectivity. Eventually, NFB issued a 
retraction, and whilst it was welcome, I think their previous comments damaged 
their reputation as an Assistive Technology review powerhouse. But sadly, NFB's 
stance is one taken by the majority of Blindness organisations - especially 
here in Europe. This is changing in France it would seem and there are people 
working in the UK too who seek to change venders' outlooks.

I don't think Apple are going to walk away from Voice Over. As others have 
pointed out, they have invested far too much time and money, as well as been 
the beneficiaries of a major switch by a growing number of Blind and VI users.

TC
James, Lyn, Nash & Twinny

On 15 Apr 2010, at 07:08, Rob Lambert wrote:

> I just got wind, from a friend of mine, that the only reason Apple is 
> accessible to us is because of a lawsuit by the NFB. The term of the 
> agreement was for accessibility improvements for three years. Here's a 
> question. First, what's your side of this ordeal? Second, who thinks Apple 
> will keep up with the accessibility improvements after this three year term 
> is up? I apologize for making smooth waters mirky, I just wanted to know what 
> your take on this was. 
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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Who else has seen the iPad?

[Rob]

I played with it for an hour and a half. I was hooked. I just can't  
get over the large screen. I also can't decide if I should get the  
first generation, or wait. Engadget found a group of folk who tore  
down the iPad, and revealed the inner holdings for a webcam, the same  
as the iSight on the iMac & MacBooks.


Sent from my iPod

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Re: What do you think?

[James & Nash]

Although i've already posted on this, I just wanted to add that despite the 
criticism that has been levelled at NFB - and rightly, they have commended 
Apple's commitment to accesibility on the IPad.
TC
James, Lyn, Nash & Twinny
On 15 Apr 2010, at 09:16, Rob wrote:

> Thank you for your input, Nic. Much appreciated. :)
> 
> Sent from my iPod
> 
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 1:12 AM, Charlie Doremus  wrote:
> 
>> I would also like to thank you, Nic, for saving my bacon. Like Anne I was 
>> going to take issue with NFB and others who love to gripe for the sake of 
>> griping. You saved me from being called tactless twice in the same week. 
>> Even though I don't use Jaws the idea of uninstall, install, uninstall, 
>> install, no matter what program, gives me the creeps.
>> 
>> Sent from the iPad I wish I had
>> 
>> On Apr 14, 2010, at 9:30 PM, Anne Robertson  wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello Nic,
>>> 
>>> Thank you for this post. You've just saved me from going on a major rant 
>>> along the same lines.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> Anne
>>> 
>>> On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:
>>> 
 Hi,
 
 I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been around 
 for six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to do with it. 
 Apple is going to keep it up because they are committed. The article about 
 the lawsuit doesn't actually mention Apple much.
 
 There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a threat to the 
 NFB of taking over the technical market. This is why NFB did not sue 
 Skype, but Apple. Agreement or not, I'm pretty sure they listened to users 
 using Outspoken and such, rather than an organization that can't even 
 review the product properly when it is out. Apple has done far more than 
 anyone for accessibility improvements. Apple said they had something in 
 store, and they sure did. I of course realize that it is a pretty serious 
 statement. Of course, I am not particularly a fan of the NFB at all. 
 Saying that, NFB has made some seriously inaccurate statements as well, 
 far outweighing mine. NFB actually has no reason to sue Apple. What would 
 they sue them for, exactly? Because their products are accessible, and 
 they want everyone to pay more than what a Macbook costs for assistive 
 technology? That wouldn't actually surprise me much. It's all about 
 competition. If they think they're about to be kicked out, of course they 
 would consider Apple a threat. Because Apple has done something Microsoft 
 has not. All these things sound really twisted and disgusting to me.
 
 Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to do with 
 iTunes on the Windows side. Fair enough, but that is a pretty ridiculous 
 suit if it really is based on accessibility. That is not the case, 
 however, as there are plenty of other useful programs for PCs that are not 
 anywhere near as accessible as iTunes 9. And NFB doesn't care about that. 
 Which, again, leads me to believe that, because NFB is scared of being 
 kicked out, they do everything they can to stop people buying their 
 product. That would make sense.
 
 Windows users rely on scripts all the time to use any application. I 
 suggest you look through your jAWS folder to see what I mean. Have you 
 even seen just the download size of a JAWS installation? It's outrageous. 
 People who moan about iTunes not being accessible just because the 
 interface accidentally broke, just need to use scripts like they do for 
 everything else. I'm surprised that wasn't their first complaint. JAWS, or 
 just Windows in general, isn't even that stable. If JAWS crashes, it's 
 stupidly difficult most of the time to reload the product. Even if you 
 manage to do so, you will probably run into the screen not being read 
 correctly when reading list boxes or with the cursor. Or, the worst-case 
 scenario. You have to uninstall JAWS 11 after attempting to install Video 
 Intercept, reinstall JAWS 10, install VIdeo Intercept, uninstall JAWS 10 
 then reinstall JAWS 11.
 
 Maybe I'm slamming the NFB a bit, but really, they need a kick in the ass. 
 I'm just happy the Danish blindness organizations are not this corrupt and 
 twisted, and they actually review fairly and take a proper look at what a 
 company offers before suing them. I'll always be negative about the NFB, 
 though I am actually being neutral when talking about the actual lawsuit 
 itself.
 
 Say what you want to, it won't change my mind. Even if it is someone from 
 NFB saying it. Some NFB people are great. Some do incredibly good reviews. 
 Some don't. And in whole, I think the organization just sucks for filing 
 unnecessary lawsuits for nothing. Maybe I'm going on a childish tantrum 
 here, perhaps. But once in a while, you need to. A

Re: What do you think?

[Rob]

I do believe it was September 2008. Again, thanks for clearing things  
up. Much appreciated. :)


Sent from my iPod

On Apr 15, 2010, at 1:18 AM, "James & Nash" > wrote:



Hi Rob,

Where did your friend get this info from? I would be interested to  
read this.  When was the law suit issued? Apple has always had some  
manner of accessibility in their computers I believe with the  
Outspoken, Screen Reader formally made by Alva.  Only since 2005/6  
though has Apple used its own Screen Reader.


I don't know, but I suspect that this NFB law suit is a distortion  
of the facts if anything. From what i understand, when Microsoft  
announced that they wanted to develop an in-built accessibility for  
Windows, the NFB pressured them not to continue because they feared  
that it would be detrimental to venders such as Freedom Scientific.  
However, this may just be a rumour as I cannot find any info on  
this. Your friend might be referring  to the announcement that in  
September 2008, NFB reached an agreement with apple on making ITunes  
more accessible to Blind users which would last for  three years.  
This agreement was only for ITunes though as far as I know.  This  
agreement came shortly after Freedom Scientific's announcement that  
ITunes would be accessible with JFW. As Josh De Lioncourt notes in  
his September 2008  article "Apple & NFB reach agreement on Apple  
Accessibility",


...NFB made no such fanfare when GW Micro announced its work with  
Apple on ITunes accessibility with Window-Eyes earlier this year,,  
when that accessibility came to fruition earlier this month, or when  
the vast majority of the ITunes application became accessible with  
Apple's Voice Over Screen Reading technology for Mac OS X early in  
2007...


Ignoring Apple's (and others') advancements in accessibility still  
seems to be a favourite NFB tactic. This was shown very clearly in  
NFB's article in the June 2009 edition of The Braille Monitor called  
"Report on the ease of access of the Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard  
environment with Voice Over". Mr.  Majerus' comments in this article  
were not entirely accurate and the article suffered from obvious  
bias and a lack of objectivity. Eventually, NFB issued a retraction,  
and whilst it was welcome, I think their previous comments damaged  
their reputation as an Assistive Technology review powerhouse. But  
sadly, NFB's stance is one taken by the majority of Blindness  
organisations - especially here in Europe. This is changing in  
France it would seem and there are people working in the UK too who  
seek to change venders' outlooks.


I don't think Apple are going to walk away from Voice Over. As  
others have pointed out, they have invested far too much time and  
money, as well as been the beneficiaries of a major switch by a  
growing number of Blind and VI users.


TC
James, Lyn, Nash & Twinny

On 15 Apr 2010, at 07:08, Rob Lambert wrote:

I just got wind, from a friend of mine, that the only reason Apple  
is accessible to us is because of a lawsuit by the NFB. The term of  
the agreement was for accessibility improvements for three years.  
Here's a question. First, what's your side of this ordeal? Second,  
who thinks Apple will keep up with the accessibility improvements  
after this three year term is up? I apologize for making smooth  
waters mirky, I just wanted to know what your take on this was.


--
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.
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.


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Re: What do you think?

[Rob]

I saw they did and was surprised, and happy, to see that.

Sent from my iPod

On Apr 15, 2010, at 1:22 AM, "James & Nash" > wrote:


Although i've already posted on this, I just wanted to add that  
despite the criticism that has been levelled at NFB - and rightly,  
they have commended Apple's commitment to accesibility on the IPad.

TC
James, Lyn, Nash & Twinny
On 15 Apr 2010, at 09:16, Rob wrote:


Thank you for your input, Nic. Much appreciated. :)

Sent from my iPod

On Apr 15, 2010, at 1:12 AM, Charlie Doremus  
 wrote:


I would also like to thank you, Nic, for saving my bacon. Like  
Anne I was going to take issue with NFB and others who love to  
gripe for the sake of griping. You saved me from being called  
tactless twice in the same week. Even though I don't use Jaws the  
idea of uninstall, install, uninstall, install, no matter what  
program, gives me the creeps.


Sent from the iPad I wish I had

On Apr 14, 2010, at 9:30 PM, Anne Robertson   
wrote:



Hello Nic,

Thank you for this post. You've just saved me from going on a  
major rant along the same lines.


Cheers,

Anne

On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:


Hi,

I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been  
around for six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to  
do with it. Apple is going to keep it up because they are  
committed. The article about the lawsuit doesn't actually  
mention Apple much.


There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a  
threat to the NFB of taking over the technical market. This is  
why NFB did not sue Skype, but Apple. Agreement or not, I'm  
pretty sure they listened to users using Outspoken and such,  
rather than an organization that can't even review the product  
properly when it is out. Apple has done far more than anyone for  
accessibility improvements. Apple said they had something in  
store, and they sure did. I of course realize that it is a  
pretty serious statement. Of course, I am not particularly a fan  
of the NFB at all. Saying that, NFB has made some seriously  
inaccurate statements as well, far outweighing mine. NFB  
actually has no reason to sue Apple. What would they sue them  
for, exactly? Because their products are accessible, and they  
want everyone to pay more than what a Macbook costs for  
assistive technology? That wouldn't actually surprise me much.  
It's all about competition. If they think they're about to be  
kicked out, of course they would consider Apple a threat.  
Because Apple has done something Microsoft has not. All these  
things sound really twisted and disgusting to me.


Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to  
do with iTunes on the Windows side. Fair enough, but that is a  
pretty ridiculous suit if it really is based on accessibility.  
That is not the case, however, as there are plenty of other  
useful programs for PCs that are not anywhere near as accessible  
as iTunes 9. And NFB doesn't care about that. Which, again,  
leads me to believe that, because NFB is scared of being kicked  
out, they do everything they can to stop people buying their  
product. That would make sense.


Windows users rely on scripts all the time to use any  
application. I suggest you look through your jAWS folder to see  
what I mean. Have you even seen just the download size of a JAWS  
installation? It's outrageous. People who moan about iTunes not  
being accessible just because the interface accidentally broke,  
just need to use scripts like they do for everything else. I'm  
surprised that wasn't their first complaint. JAWS, or just  
Windows in general, isn't even that stable. If JAWS crashes,  
it's stupidly difficult most of the time to reload the product.  
Even if you manage to do so, you will probably run into the  
screen not being read correctly when reading list boxes or with  
the cursor. Or, the worst-case scenario. You have to uninstall  
JAWS 11 after attempting to install Video Intercept, reinstall  
JAWS 10, install VIdeo Intercept, uninstall JAWS 10 then  
reinstall JAWS 11.


Maybe I'm slamming the NFB a bit, but really, they need a kick  
in the ass. I'm just happy the Danish blindness organizations  
are not this corrupt and twisted, and they actually review  
fairly and take a proper look at what a company offers before  
suing them. I'll always be negative about the NFB, though I am  
actually being neutral when talking about the actual lawsuit  
itself.


Say what you want to, it won't change my mind. Even if it is  
someone from NFB saying it. Some NFB people are great. Some do  
incredibly good reviews. Some don't. And in whole, I think the  
organization just sucks for filing unnecessary lawsuits for  
nothing. Maybe I'm going on a childish tantrum here, perhaps.  
But once in a while, you need to. A company is trying to provide  
great accessibility for their products, and they are sued  
because of one problem. iTunes is actually still useful on the  

Re: What do you think?

[Nicolai Svendsen]

Hi,

*grins* I just hate it when an organization always slams a company for reason 
than to be threatened. Competition is a pain.

Regards,
Nic
Skype: Kvalme
MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
AIM: cincinster
yahoo Messenger: cin368
Facebook Profile
My Twitter

On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:30 AM, Anne Robertson wrote:

> Hello Nic,
> 
> Thank you for this post. You've just saved me from going on a major rant 
> along the same lines.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Anne
> 
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been around for 
>> six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to do with it. Apple is 
>> going to keep it up because they are committed. The article about the 
>> lawsuit doesn't actually mention Apple much.
>> 
>> There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a threat to the NFB 
>> of taking over the technical market. This is why NFB did not sue Skype, but 
>> Apple. Agreement or not, I'm pretty sure they listened to users using 
>> Outspoken and such, rather than an organization that can't even review the 
>> product properly when it is out. Apple has done far more than anyone for 
>> accessibility improvements. Apple said they had something in store, and they 
>> sure did. I of course realize that it is a pretty serious statement. Of 
>> course, I am not particularly a fan of the NFB at all. Saying that, NFB has 
>> made some seriously inaccurate statements as well, far outweighing mine. NFB 
>> actually has no reason to sue Apple. What would they sue them for, exactly? 
>> Because their products are accessible, and they want everyone to pay more 
>> than what a Macbook costs for assistive technology? That wouldn't actually 
>> surprise me much. It's all about competition. If they think they're about to 
>> be kicked out, of course they would consider Apple a threat. Because Apple 
>> has done something Microsoft has not. All these things sound really twisted 
>> and disgusting to me.
>> 
>> Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to do with 
>> iTunes on the Windows side. Fair enough, but that is a pretty ridiculous 
>> suit if it really is based on accessibility. That is not the case, however, 
>> as there are plenty of other useful programs for PCs that are not anywhere 
>> near as accessible as iTunes 9. And NFB doesn't care about that. Which, 
>> again, leads me to believe that, because NFB is scared of being kicked out, 
>> they do everything they can to stop people buying their product. That would 
>> make sense.
>> 
>> Windows users rely on scripts all the time to use any application. I suggest 
>> you look through your jAWS folder to see what I mean. Have you even seen 
>> just the download size of a JAWS installation? It's outrageous. People who 
>> moan about iTunes not being accessible just because the interface 
>> accidentally broke, just need to use scripts like they do for everything 
>> else. I'm surprised that wasn't their first complaint. JAWS, or just Windows 
>> in general, isn't even that stable. If JAWS crashes, it's stupidly difficult 
>> most of the time to reload the product. Even if you manage to do so, you 
>> will probably run into the screen not being read correctly when reading list 
>> boxes or with the cursor. Or, the worst-case scenario. You have to uninstall 
>> JAWS 11 after attempting to install Video Intercept, reinstall JAWS 10, 
>> install VIdeo Intercept, uninstall JAWS 10 then reinstall JAWS 11.
>> 
>> Maybe I'm slamming the NFB a bit, but really, they need a kick in the ass. 
>> I'm just happy the Danish blindness organizations are not this corrupt and 
>> twisted, and they actually review fairly and take a proper look at what a 
>> company offers before suing them. I'll always be negative about the NFB, 
>> though I am actually being neutral when talking about the actual lawsuit 
>> itself.
>> 
>> Say what you want to, it won't change my mind. Even if it is someone from 
>> NFB saying it. Some NFB people are great. Some do incredibly good reviews. 
>> Some don't. And in whole, I think the organization just sucks for filing 
>> unnecessary lawsuits for nothing. Maybe I'm going on a childish tantrum 
>> here, perhaps. But once in a while, you need to. A company is trying to 
>> provide great accessibility for their products, and they are sued because of 
>> one problem. iTunes is actually still useful on the Windows side, people. 
>> Quit your darn nitpicking.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Nic
>> Skype: Kvalme
>> MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
>> AIM: cincinster
>> yahoo Messenger: cin368
>> Facebook Profile
>> My Twitter
>> 
>> On Apr 15, 2010, at 8:08 AM, Rob Lambert wrote:
>> 
>>> I just got wind, from a friend of mine, that the only reason Apple is 
>>> accessible to us is because of a lawsuit by the NFB. The term of the 
>>> agreement was for accessibility improvements for three years. Here's a 
>>> question. First, what's your side of t

Re: What do you think?

[Nicolai Svendsen]

Hi,

That's alright. God, I feel better. It's one of those things I can keep going 
on about and never stop.

Regards,
Nic
Skype: Kvalme
MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
AIM: cincinster
yahoo Messenger: cin368
Facebook Profile
My Twitter

On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:31 AM, Rob Lambert wrote:

> I apologize if I opened a can of worms.
> 
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 12:30 AM, Anne Robertson  wrote:
> Hello Nic,
> 
> Thank you for this post. You've just saved me from going on a major rant 
> along the same lines.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Anne
> 
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> > I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been around for 
> > six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to do with it. Apple is 
> > going to keep it up because they are committed. The article about the 
> > lawsuit doesn't actually mention Apple much.
> >
> > There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a threat to the 
> > NFB of taking over the technical market. This is why NFB did not sue Skype, 
> > but Apple. Agreement or not, I'm pretty sure they listened to users using 
> > Outspoken and such, rather than an organization that can't even review the 
> > product properly when it is out. Apple has done far more than anyone for 
> > accessibility improvements. Apple said they had something in store, and 
> > they sure did. I of course realize that it is a pretty serious statement. 
> > Of course, I am not particularly a fan of the NFB at all. Saying that, NFB 
> > has made some seriously inaccurate statements as well, far outweighing 
> > mine. NFB actually has no reason to sue Apple. What would they sue them 
> > for, exactly? Because their products are accessible, and they want everyone 
> > to pay more than what a Macbook costs for assistive technology? That 
> > wouldn't actually surprise me much. It's all about competition. If they 
> > think they're about to be kicked out, of course they would consider Apple a 
> > threat. Because Apple has done something Microsoft has not. All these 
> > things sound really twisted and disgusting to me.
> >
> > Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to do with 
> > iTunes on the Windows side. Fair enough, but that is a pretty ridiculous 
> > suit if it really is based on accessibility. That is not the case, however, 
> > as there are plenty of other useful programs for PCs that are not anywhere 
> > near as accessible as iTunes 9. And NFB doesn't care about that. Which, 
> > again, leads me to believe that, because NFB is scared of being kicked out, 
> > they do everything they can to stop people buying their product. That would 
> > make sense.
> >
> > Windows users rely on scripts all the time to use any application. I 
> > suggest you look through your jAWS folder to see what I mean. Have you even 
> > seen just the download size of a JAWS installation? It's outrageous. People 
> > who moan about iTunes not being accessible just because the interface 
> > accidentally broke, just need to use scripts like they do for everything 
> > else. I'm surprised that wasn't their first complaint. JAWS, or just 
> > Windows in general, isn't even that stable. If JAWS crashes, it's stupidly 
> > difficult most of the time to reload the product. Even if you manage to do 
> > so, you will probably run into the screen not being read correctly when 
> > reading list boxes or with the cursor. Or, the worst-case scenario. You 
> > have to uninstall JAWS 11 after attempting to install Video Intercept, 
> > reinstall JAWS 10, install VIdeo Intercept, uninstall JAWS 10 then 
> > reinstall JAWS 11.
> >
> > Maybe I'm slamming the NFB a bit, but really, they need a kick in the ass. 
> > I'm just happy the Danish blindness organizations are not this corrupt and 
> > twisted, and they actually review fairly and take a proper look at what a 
> > company offers before suing them. I'll always be negative about the NFB, 
> > though I am actually being neutral when talking about the actual lawsuit 
> > itself.
> >
> > Say what you want to, it won't change my mind. Even if it is someone from 
> > NFB saying it. Some NFB people are great. Some do incredibly good reviews. 
> > Some don't. And in whole, I think the organization just sucks for filing 
> > unnecessary lawsuits for nothing. Maybe I'm going on a childish tantrum 
> > here, perhaps. But once in a while, you need to. A company is trying to 
> > provide great accessibility for their products, and they are sued because 
> > of one problem. iTunes is actually still useful on the Windows side, 
> > people. Quit your darn nitpicking.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Nic
> > Skype: Kvalme
> > MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
> > AIM: cincinster
> > yahoo Messenger: cin368
> > Facebook Profile
> > My Twitter
> >
> > On Apr 15, 2010, at 8:08 AM, Rob Lambert wrote:
> >
> >> I just got wind, from a friend of mine, that the only reason Apple is 
> >> accessible to us is because of a laws

Re: What do you think?

[Nicolai Svendsen]

Hi,

Haha Charlie, nice signature.

Yeah, I thought someone had to. I took the plunge because I'm just fed up with 
the crap.

Regards,
Nic
Skype: Kvalme
MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
AIM: cincinster
yahoo Messenger: cin368
Facebook Profile
My Twitter

On Apr 15, 2010, at 10:12 AM, Charlie Doremus wrote:

> I would also like to thank you, Nic, for saving my bacon. Like Anne I was 
> going to take issue with NFB and others who love to gripe for the sake of 
> griping. You saved me from being called tactless twice in the same week. Even 
> though I don't use Jaws the idea of uninstall, install, uninstall, install, 
> no matter what program, gives me the creeps. 
> 
> Sent from the iPad I wish I had
> 
> On Apr 14, 2010, at 9:30 PM, Anne Robertson  wrote:
> 
>> Hello Nic,
>> 
>> Thank you for this post. You've just saved me from going on a major rant 
>> along the same lines.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Anne
>> 
>> On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been around for 
>>> six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to do with it. Apple is 
>>> going to keep it up because they are committed. The article about the 
>>> lawsuit doesn't actually mention Apple much.
>>> 
>>> There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a threat to the 
>>> NFB of taking over the technical market. This is why NFB did not sue Skype, 
>>> but Apple. Agreement or not, I'm pretty sure they listened to users using 
>>> Outspoken and such, rather than an organization that can't even review the 
>>> product properly when it is out. Apple has done far more than anyone for 
>>> accessibility improvements. Apple said they had something in store, and 
>>> they sure did. I of course realize that it is a pretty serious statement. 
>>> Of course, I am not particularly a fan of the NFB at all. Saying that, NFB 
>>> has made some seriously inaccurate statements as well, far outweighing 
>>> mine. NFB actually has no reason to sue Apple. What would they sue them 
>>> for, exactly? Because their products are accessible, and they want everyone 
>>> to pay more than what a Macbook costs for assistive technology? That 
>>> wouldn't actually surprise me much. It's all about competition. If they 
>>> think they're about to be kicked out, of course they would consider Apple a 
>>> threat. Because Apple has done something Microsoft has not. All these 
>>> things sound really twisted and disgusting to me.
>>> 
>>> Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to do with 
>>> iTunes on the Windows side. Fair enough, but that is a pretty ridiculous 
>>> suit if it really is based on accessibility. That is not the case, however, 
>>> as there are plenty of other useful programs for PCs that are not anywhere 
>>> near as accessible as iTunes 9. And NFB doesn't care about that. Which, 
>>> again, leads me to believe that, because NFB is scared of being kicked out, 
>>> they do everything they can to stop people buying their product. That would 
>>> make sense.
>>> 
>>> Windows users rely on scripts all the time to use any application. I 
>>> suggest you look through your jAWS folder to see what I mean. Have you even 
>>> seen just the download size of a JAWS installation? It's outrageous. People 
>>> who moan about iTunes not being accessible just because the interface 
>>> accidentally broke, just need to use scripts like they do for everything 
>>> else. I'm surprised that wasn't their first complaint. JAWS, or just 
>>> Windows in general, isn't even that stable. If JAWS crashes, it's stupidly 
>>> difficult most of the time to reload the product. Even if you manage to do 
>>> so, you will probably run into the screen not being read correctly when 
>>> reading list boxes or with the cursor. Or, the worst-case scenario. You 
>>> have to uninstall JAWS 11 after attempting to install Video Intercept, 
>>> reinstall JAWS 10, install VIdeo Intercept, uninstall JAWS 10 then 
>>> reinstall JAWS 11.
>>> 
>>> Maybe I'm slamming the NFB a bit, but really, they need a kick in the ass. 
>>> I'm just happy the Danish blindness organizations are not this corrupt and 
>>> twisted, and they actually review fairly and take a proper look at what a 
>>> company offers before suing them. I'll always be negative about the NFB, 
>>> though I am actually being neutral when talking about the actual lawsuit 
>>> itself.
>>> 
>>> Say what you want to, it won't change my mind. Even if it is someone from 
>>> NFB saying it. Some NFB people are great. Some do incredibly good reviews. 
>>> Some don't. And in whole, I think the organization just sucks for filing 
>>> unnecessary lawsuits for nothing. Maybe I'm going on a childish tantrum 
>>> here, perhaps. But once in a while, you need to. A company is trying to 
>>> provide great accessibility for their products, and they are sued because 
>>> of one problem. iTunes is actually still useful on the Windows 

Re: What do you think?

[Nicolai Svendsen]

Hi,

Yeah, it's easy to find. If you Google something like "NFB lawsuit  against 
Apple" or whatever, it's there. :)

And the GWMicro issue I was gonna get around to. It's kind of funny. At least 
GW works with Apple instead of trying to give them improper input.

Regards,
Nic
Skype: Kvalme
MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
AIM: cincinster
yahoo Messenger: cin368
Facebook Profile
My Twitter

On Apr 15, 2010, at 10:18 AM, James & Nash wrote:

> Hi Rob,
> 
> Where did your friend get this info from? I would be interested to read this. 
>  When was the law suit issued? Apple has always had some manner of 
> accessibility in their computers I believe with the Outspoken, Screen Reader 
> formally made by Alva.  Only since 2005/6 though has Apple used its own 
> Screen Reader.
> 
> I don't know, but I suspect that this NFB law suit is a distortion of the 
> facts if anything. From what i understand, when Microsoft announced that they 
> wanted to develop an in-built accessibility for Windows, the NFB pressured 
> them not to continue because they feared that it would be detrimental to 
> venders such as Freedom Scientific. However, this may just be a rumour as I 
> cannot find any info on this. Your friend might be referring  to the 
> announcement that in September 2008, NFB reached an agreement with apple on 
> making ITunes more accessible to Blind users which would last for  three 
> years. This agreement was only for ITunes though as far as I know.  This 
> agreement came shortly after Freedom Scientific's announcement that ITunes 
> would be accessible with JFW. As Josh De Lioncourt notes in his September 
> 2008  article "Apple & NFB reach agreement on Apple Accessibility",
> 
> ...NFB made no such fanfare when GW Micro announced its work with Apple on 
> ITunes accessibility with Window-Eyes earlier this year,, when that 
> accessibility came to fruition earlier this month, or when the vast majority 
> of the ITunes application became accessible with Apple's Voice Over Screen 
> Reading technology for Mac OS X early in 2007...
> 
> Ignoring Apple's (and others') advancements in accessibility still seems to 
> be a favourite NFB tactic. This was shown very clearly in NFB's article in 
> the June 2009 edition of The Braille Monitor called "Report on the ease of 
> access of the Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard environment with Voice Over". Mr.  
> Majerus' comments in this article were not entirely accurate and the article 
> suffered from obvious bias and a lack of objectivity. Eventually, NFB issued 
> a retraction, and whilst it was welcome, I think their previous comments 
> damaged their reputation as an Assistive Technology review powerhouse. But 
> sadly, NFB's stance is one taken by the majority of Blindness organisations - 
> especially here in Europe. This is changing in France it would seem and there 
> are people working in the UK too who seek to change venders' outlooks.
> 
> I don't think Apple are going to walk away from Voice Over. As others have 
> pointed out, they have invested far too much time and money, as well as been 
> the beneficiaries of a major switch by a growing number of Blind and VI users.
> 
> TC
> James, Lyn, Nash & Twinny
> 
> On 15 Apr 2010, at 07:08, Rob Lambert wrote:
> 
>> I just got wind, from a friend of mine, that the only reason Apple is 
>> accessible to us is because of a lawsuit by the NFB. The term of the 
>> agreement was for accessibility improvements for three years. Here's a 
>> question. First, what's your side of this ordeal? Second, who thinks Apple 
>> will keep up with the accessibility improvements after this three year term 
>> is up? I apologize for making smooth waters mirky, I just wanted to know 
>> what your take on this was. 
>> 
>> -- 
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> 
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RE: Infovox voices licensing/copy protection?

[Bryan Smart]

Hi Anne.

Thanks for your response.

I feel much better about purchasing the voices now.

Bryan 

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 5:39 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Infovox voices licensing/copy protection?

Hello Bryan,

On Apr 12, 2010, at 6:24 PM, Bryan Smart wrote:
> I've been using Infovox iVox voices for around 4 years now.
> 
> Do they give you a code that matches up with a single computer, so you can 
> re-install on that machine as many times as needed?
> 
The code is tied to your name and e-mail address, so you can install them on 
all your computers.

> Do you need to check out and check in machine keys/authorizations/activations 
> on their web site somehow?
> 
No. You put your license key in on your computer, then do a Restart and 
everything's fine.

However, when you change computers, you have to reinstall the voices, they 
don't cary across like so many other applications.

> Do they give you a code that allows multiple installs on any Macs that you 
> have?
> 
Yes, see above.

> Do they mail you a dongle?
> 
No.

> Any info would be appreciated. If I purchase them, and then discover that the 
> protection doesn't suit, I'll probably not be able to get a refund, so I'd 
> rather know in advance.
> 
I don't know about that. The quality is excellent, and as someone who needs 
another language, Infovox iVox is the only show in town.

I can't talk about the quality of the American voices, but the British, French 
and Québecoise voices are very good.

For an extra 10 Euros or however many dollars, you can also get GhostReader 
which is a handy little app. It's basically a reader that can also create audio 
files.

Cheers,

Anne

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Re: What do you think?

[Nicolai Svendsen]

Hi,

Regardless, I still think they're doing that to avoid the flaming they got for 
their Mac article. It's amusing how they were suddenly in love with the iPhone.

I think that guy did a fair article, though, and it was very good.

Regards,
Nic
Skype: Kvalme
MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
AIM: cincinster
yahoo Messenger: cin368
Facebook Profile
My Twitter

On Apr 15, 2010, at 10:22 AM, James & Nash wrote:

> Although i've already posted on this, I just wanted to add that despite the 
> criticism that has been levelled at NFB - and rightly, they have commended 
> Apple's commitment to accesibility on the IPad.
> TC
> James, Lyn, Nash & Twinny
> On 15 Apr 2010, at 09:16, Rob wrote:
> 
>> Thank you for your input, Nic. Much appreciated. :)
>> 
>> Sent from my iPod
>> 
>> On Apr 15, 2010, at 1:12 AM, Charlie Doremus  wrote:
>> 
>>> I would also like to thank you, Nic, for saving my bacon. Like Anne I was 
>>> going to take issue with NFB and others who love to gripe for the sake of 
>>> griping. You saved me from being called tactless twice in the same week. 
>>> Even though I don't use Jaws the idea of uninstall, install, uninstall, 
>>> install, no matter what program, gives me the creeps.
>>> 
>>> Sent from the iPad I wish I had
>>> 
>>> On Apr 14, 2010, at 9:30 PM, Anne Robertson  wrote:
>>> 
 Hello Nic,
 
 Thank you for this post. You've just saved me from going on a major rant 
 along the same lines.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Anne
 
 On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:
 
> Hi,
> 
> I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been around 
> for six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to do with it. 
> Apple is going to keep it up because they are committed. The article 
> about the lawsuit doesn't actually mention Apple much.
> 
> There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a threat to the 
> NFB of taking over the technical market. This is why NFB did not sue 
> Skype, but Apple. Agreement or not, I'm pretty sure they listened to 
> users using Outspoken and such, rather than an organization that can't 
> even review the product properly when it is out. Apple has done far more 
> than anyone for accessibility improvements. Apple said they had something 
> in store, and they sure did. I of course realize that it is a pretty 
> serious statement. Of course, I am not particularly a fan of the NFB at 
> all. Saying that, NFB has made some seriously inaccurate statements as 
> well, far outweighing mine. NFB actually has no reason to sue Apple. What 
> would they sue them for, exactly? Because their products are accessible, 
> and they want everyone to pay more than what a Macbook costs for 
> assistive technology? That wouldn't actually surprise me much. It's all 
> about competition. If they think they're about to be kicked out, of 
> course they would consider Apple a threat. Because Apple has done 
> something Microsoft has not. All these things sound really twisted and 
> disgusting to me.
> 
> Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to do with 
> iTunes on the Windows side. Fair enough, but that is a pretty ridiculous 
> suit if it really is based on accessibility. That is not the case, 
> however, as there are plenty of other useful programs for PCs that are 
> not anywhere near as accessible as iTunes 9. And NFB doesn't care about 
> that. Which, again, leads me to believe that, because NFB is scared of 
> being kicked out, they do everything they can to stop people buying their 
> product. That would make sense.
> 
> Windows users rely on scripts all the time to use any application. I 
> suggest you look through your jAWS folder to see what I mean. Have you 
> even seen just the download size of a JAWS installation? It's outrageous. 
> People who moan about iTunes not being accessible just because the 
> interface accidentally broke, just need to use scripts like they do for 
> everything else. I'm surprised that wasn't their first complaint. JAWS, 
> or just Windows in general, isn't even that stable. If JAWS crashes, it's 
> stupidly difficult most of the time to reload the product. Even if you 
> manage to do so, you will probably run into the screen not being read 
> correctly when reading list boxes or with the cursor. Or, the worst-case 
> scenario. You have to uninstall JAWS 11 after attempting to install Video 
> Intercept, reinstall JAWS 10, install VIdeo Intercept, uninstall JAWS 10 
> then reinstall JAWS 11.
> 
> Maybe I'm slamming the NFB a bit, but really, they need a kick in the 
> ass. I'm just happy the Danish blindness organizations are not this 
> corrupt and twisted, and they actually review fairly and take a proper 
> look at what a company offers before suin

Re: What do you think?

[Cody]

Is laughing

We got early morning coffee drinkers I see, this list is really jumpin
- Original Message - 
From: "Rob" 

To: 
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 4:27 AM
Subject: Re: What do you think?



I saw they did and was surprised, and happy, to see that.

Sent from my iPod

On Apr 15, 2010, at 1:22 AM, "James & Nash" 

> wrote:

Although i've already posted on this, I just wanted to add that  despite 
the criticism that has been levelled at NFB - and rightly,  they have 
commended Apple's commitment to accesibility on the IPad.

TC
James, Lyn, Nash & Twinny
On 15 Apr 2010, at 09:16, Rob wrote:


Thank you for your input, Nic. Much appreciated. :)

Sent from my iPod

On Apr 15, 2010, at 1:12 AM, Charlie Doremus   
wrote:


I would also like to thank you, Nic, for saving my bacon. Like  Anne I 
was going to take issue with NFB and others who love to  gripe for the 
sake of griping. You saved me from being called  tactless twice in the 
same week. Even though I don't use Jaws the  idea of uninstall, 
install, uninstall, install, no matter what  program, gives me the 
creeps.


Sent from the iPad I wish I had

On Apr 14, 2010, at 9:30 PM, Anne Robertson  
wrote:



Hello Nic,

Thank you for this post. You've just saved me from going on a  major 
rant along the same lines.


Cheers,

Anne

On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:


Hi,

I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been 
around for six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to  do 
with it. Apple is going to keep it up because they are  committed. 
The article about the lawsuit doesn't actually  mention Apple much.


There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a  threat to 
the NFB of taking over the technical market. This is  why NFB did not 
sue Skype, but Apple. Agreement or not, I'm  pretty sure they 
listened to users using Outspoken and such,  rather than an 
organization that can't even review the product  properly when it is 
out. Apple has done far more than anyone for  accessibility 
improvements. Apple said they had something in  store, and they sure 
did. I of course realize that it is a  pretty serious statement. Of 
course, I am not particularly a fan  of the NFB at all. Saying that, 
NFB has made some seriously  inaccurate statements as well, far 
outweighing mine. NFB  actually has no reason to sue Apple. What 
would they sue them  for, exactly? Because their products are 
accessible, and they  want everyone to pay more than what a Macbook 
costs for  assistive technology? That wouldn't actually surprise me 
much.  It's all about competition. If they think they're about to be 
kicked out, of course they would consider Apple a threat.  Because 
Apple has done something Microsoft has not. All these  things sound 
really twisted and disgusting to me.


Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to  do 
with iTunes on the Windows side. Fair enough, but that is a  pretty 
ridiculous suit if it really is based on accessibility.  That is not 
the case, however, as there are plenty of other  useful programs for 
PCs that are not anywhere near as accessible  as iTunes 9. And NFB 
doesn't care about that. Which, again,  leads me to believe that, 
because NFB is scared of being kicked  out, they do everything they 
can to stop people buying their  product. That would make sense.


Windows users rely on scripts all the time to use any  application. I 
suggest you look through your jAWS folder to see  what I mean. Have 
you even seen just the download size of a JAWS  installation? It's 
outrageous. People who moan about iTunes not  being accessible just 
because the interface accidentally broke,  just need to use scripts 
like they do for everything else. I'm  surprised that wasn't their 
first complaint. JAWS, or just  Windows in general, isn't even that 
stable. If JAWS crashes,  it's stupidly difficult most of the time to 
reload the product.  Even if you manage to do so, you will probably 
run into the  screen not being read correctly when reading list boxes 
or with  the cursor. Or, the worst-case scenario. You have to 
uninstall  JAWS 11 after attempting to install Video Intercept, 
reinstall  JAWS 10, install VIdeo Intercept, uninstall JAWS 10 then 
reinstall JAWS 11.


Maybe I'm slamming the NFB a bit, but really, they need a kick  in 
the ass. I'm just happy the Danish blindness organizations  are not 
this corrupt and twisted, and they actually review  fairly and take a 
proper look at what a company offers before  suing them. I'll always 
be negative about the NFB, though I am  actually being neutral when 
talking about the actual lawsuit  itself.


Say what you want to, it won't change my mind. Even if it is  someone 
from NFB saying it. Some NFB people are great. Some do  incredibly 
good reviews. Some don't. And in whole, I think the  organization 
just sucks for filing unnecessary lawsuits for  nothing. Maybe I'm 
going on a childish tantrum here, perh

Re: What do you think?

[Nicolai Svendsen]

Hi,

*grins* Sure do. I've got a coffee thermos next to me in my classroom. I'm 
supposed to be diligently taking notes, but really, I'm writing blog posts, 
tweeting, on seven messaging accounts, and browsing the web while taking notes.

That said, James has a point here. NFB did retract their statement, although 
their statement still was really bias. It said they wanted to open it up for 
dialog, yet they continue to trash Apple in the same post.

It just saddens me why this has to happen. I love what Apple has done, and I 
know they'll keep it up. I've never sent so many text messages from my iPhone, 
never enjoyed a computer this much as a Mac, and had this much fun. That's 
because I don't have to worry about any third-party installed screen reading 
access software crashing, not starting up, giving me script errors, and so-on.

I've really found the accessibility team, regardless of my issue, extremely 
responsive. The longest time I have waited for a reply to either a suggestion, 
comment or issue is a full day. Not longer than that. They've replied to all my 
e-mails except one, and I have sent quite a few of them. But despite that, the 
feature I asked for was implemented.

Regards,
Nic
Skype: Kvalme
MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
AIM: cincinster
yahoo Messenger: cin368
Facebook Profile
My Twitter

On Apr 15, 2010, at 10:38 AM, Cody wrote:

> Is laughing
> 
> We got early morning coffee drinkers I see, this list is really jumpin
> - Original Message - From: "Rob" 
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 4:27 AM
> Subject: Re: What do you think?
> 
> 
>> I saw they did and was surprised, and happy, to see that.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPod
>> 
>> On Apr 15, 2010, at 1:22 AM, "James & Nash" > > wrote:
>> 
>>> Although i've already posted on this, I just wanted to add that  despite 
>>> the criticism that has been levelled at NFB - and rightly,  they have 
>>> commended Apple's commitment to accesibility on the IPad.
>>> TC
>>> James, Lyn, Nash & Twinny
>>> On 15 Apr 2010, at 09:16, Rob wrote:
>>> 
 Thank you for your input, Nic. Much appreciated. :)
 
 Sent from my iPod
 
 On Apr 15, 2010, at 1:12 AM, Charlie Doremus   
 wrote:
 
> I would also like to thank you, Nic, for saving my bacon. Like  Anne I 
> was going to take issue with NFB and others who love to  gripe for the 
> sake of griping. You saved me from being called  tactless twice in the 
> same week. Even though I don't use Jaws the  idea of uninstall, install, 
> uninstall, install, no matter what  program, gives me the creeps.
> 
> Sent from the iPad I wish I had
> 
> On Apr 14, 2010, at 9:30 PM, Anne Robertson  wrote:
> 
>> Hello Nic,
>> 
>> Thank you for this post. You've just saved me from going on a  major 
>> rant along the same lines.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Anne
>> 
>> On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been around 
>>> for six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to  do with it. 
>>> Apple is going to keep it up because they are  committed. The article 
>>> about the lawsuit doesn't actually  mention Apple much.
>>> 
>>> There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a  threat to 
>>> the NFB of taking over the technical market. This is  why NFB did not 
>>> sue Skype, but Apple. Agreement or not, I'm  pretty sure they listened 
>>> to users using Outspoken and such,  rather than an organization that 
>>> can't even review the product  properly when it is out. Apple has done 
>>> far more than anyone for  accessibility improvements. Apple said they 
>>> had something in  store, and they sure did. I of course realize that it 
>>> is a  pretty serious statement. Of course, I am not particularly a fan  
>>> of the NFB at all. Saying that, NFB has made some seriously  inaccurate 
>>> statements as well, far outweighing mine. NFB  actually has no reason 
>>> to sue Apple. What would they sue them  for, exactly? Because their 
>>> products are accessible, and they  want everyone to pay more than what 
>>> a Macbook costs for  assistive technology? That wouldn't actually 
>>> surprise me much.  It's all about competition. If they think they're 
>>> about to be kicked out, of course they would consider Apple a threat.  
>>> Because Apple has done something Microsoft has not. All these  things 
>>> sound really twisted and disgusting to me.
>>> 
>>> Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to  do 
>>> with iTunes on the Windows side. Fair enough, but that is a  pretty 
>>> ridiculous suit if it really is based on accessibility.  That is not 
>>> the case, however, as there are plenty of other  useful programs for 
>>> PCs that are not anywhere near as accessible  

Re: What do you think?

[Cody]

Speaking of support I wonder where I can send my bug fixes requests for 
iPhone os 4.0
- Original Message - 
From: "Nicolai Svendsen" 

To: 
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 4:47 AM
Subject: Re: What do you think?


Hi,

*grins* Sure do. I've got a coffee thermos next to me in my classroom. I'm 
supposed to be diligently taking notes, but really, I'm writing blog posts, 
tweeting, on seven messaging accounts, and browsing the web while taking 
notes.


That said, James has a point here. NFB did retract their statement, although 
their statement still was really bias. It said they wanted to open it up for 
dialog, yet they continue to trash Apple in the same post.


It just saddens me why this has to happen. I love what Apple has done, and I 
know they'll keep it up. I've never sent so many text messages from my 
iPhone, never enjoyed a computer this much as a Mac, and had this much fun. 
That's because I don't have to worry about any third-party installed screen 
reading access software crashing, not starting up, giving me script errors, 
and so-on.


I've really found the accessibility team, regardless of my issue, extremely 
responsive. The longest time I have waited for a reply to either a 
suggestion, comment or issue is a full day. Not longer than that. They've 
replied to all my e-mails except one, and I have sent quite a few of them. 
But despite that, the feature I asked for was implemented.


Regards,
Nic
Skype: Kvalme
MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
AIM: cincinster
yahoo Messenger: cin368
Facebook Profile
My Twitter

On Apr 15, 2010, at 10:38 AM, Cody wrote:


Is laughing

We got early morning coffee drinkers I see, this list is really jumpin
- Original Message - From: "Rob" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 4:27 AM
Subject: Re: What do you think?



I saw they did and was surprised, and happy, to see that.

Sent from my iPod

On Apr 15, 2010, at 1:22 AM, "James & Nash" 

> wrote:

Although i've already posted on this, I just wanted to add that  despite 
the criticism that has been levelled at NFB - and rightly,  they have 
commended Apple's commitment to accesibility on the IPad.

TC
James, Lyn, Nash & Twinny
On 15 Apr 2010, at 09:16, Rob wrote:


Thank you for your input, Nic. Much appreciated. :)

Sent from my iPod

On Apr 15, 2010, at 1:12 AM, Charlie Doremus   
wrote:


I would also like to thank you, Nic, for saving my bacon. Like  Anne I 
was going to take issue with NFB and others who love to  gripe for the 
sake of griping. You saved me from being called  tactless twice in the 
same week. Even though I don't use Jaws the  idea of uninstall, 
install, uninstall, install, no matter what  program, gives me the 
creeps.


Sent from the iPad I wish I had

On Apr 14, 2010, at 9:30 PM, Anne Robertson  
wrote:



Hello Nic,

Thank you for this post. You've just saved me from going on a  major 
rant along the same lines.


Cheers,

Anne

On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:


Hi,

I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been 
around for six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to  do 
with it. Apple is going to keep it up because they are  committed. 
The article about the lawsuit doesn't actually  mention Apple much.


There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a  threat 
to the NFB of taking over the technical market. This is  why NFB did 
not sue Skype, but Apple. Agreement or not, I'm  pretty sure they 
listened to users using Outspoken and such,  rather than an 
organization that can't even review the product  properly when it is 
out. Apple has done far more than anyone for  accessibility 
improvements. Apple said they had something in  store, and they sure 
did. I of course realize that it is a  pretty serious statement. Of 
course, I am not particularly a fan  of the NFB at all. Saying that, 
NFB has made some seriously  inaccurate statements as well, far 
outweighing mine. NFB  actually has no reason to sue Apple. What 
would they sue them  for, exactly? Because their products are 
accessible, and they  want everyone to pay more than what a Macbook 
costs for  assistive technology? That wouldn't actually surprise me 
much.  It's all about competition. If they think they're about to be 
kicked out, of course they would consider Apple a threat.  Because 
Apple has done something Microsoft has not. All these  things sound 
really twisted and disgusting to me.


Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to  do 
with iTunes on the Windows side. Fair enough, but that is a  pretty 
ridiculous suit if it really is based on accessibility.  That is not 
the case, however, as there are plenty of other  useful programs for 
PCs that are not anywhere near as accessible  as iTunes 9. And NFB 
doesn't care about that. Which, again,  leads me to believe that, 
because NFB is scared of being kicked  out, they do everything they 
can to stop people buying their  product. That would make sense.


Windows 

Re: Who else has seen the iPad?

[May McDonald]

Man, I am so jealous. Canada won't get the IPad until the end of next month, 
cry cry.

May and Wyn
On 2010-04-15, at 1:21 AM, Rob wrote:

> I played with it for an hour and a half. I was hooked. I just can't get over 
> the large screen. I also can't decide if I should get the first generation, 
> or wait. Engadget found a group of folk who tore down the iPad, and revealed 
> the inner holdings for a webcam, the same as the iSight on the iMac & 
> MacBooks.
> 
> Sent from my iPod
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
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Re: What do you think?

[marie Howarth]

I also want to thank Nick for his lengthy response, you said almost everything 
I would have said. I think the confusion lies with the ITunes lawsuit. Apple 
did have a few years without accessibility I believe. Outspoken was 
discontinued and voice over was brought in and I believe this was due to a 
state in the US wanting macs for all of its schools during the early 2000s. 
However, there was no solution for visually impaired users and their was a 
federal legal issue with the disability discrimination act. Apple said that 
although they didn't have anything at that present time, they assured the 
government that something was coming. And indeed they did.

Anyone who thinks Apple will just stop progressing with voice over really needs 
their head testing. If it was a pure ploy to quiet the legislation from suing 
the company for breaching the DDA, [or whatever it is called in the US], then 
they clearly have not followed anything Apple has done since Tiger. Not only 
has it kept developing voice over for the mac, but it has introduced a fully 
functional built in screen reader on all of its touch devices when it has been 
technically possible. The IPod nanos, the IPhone, the touch, shuffle and now 
the IPad all have voice over. The fact they not only updated their operating 
system last august for mac and implemented "new" features with the rotor and 
such, they continually are developing the IPhone OS too. Why would a company 
plough not only financial revenue but technical expertise to just "forget" it 
later on. It doesn't make sense. 

Every day I hear another person switching to the mac and I honestly feel relief 
for that person. the days of turning my computer on and it just working makes 
life easier. As I said in another post on this list, while writing my CV, 
someone who was helping me from an agency pointed out that I should be 
"adequate" in MS office. How? When MS isn't adequate for me as a user? I get a 
lot of businesses supposedly use MS but gradually the market will shift and 
with more third party developers seeing the potential of the mac platform, it 
will be definitely a two horse race. I think its tragic we live in a world 
where visually impaired people are expected to use windows, and expected to use 
it solely. Granted, some of you need windows for your jobs and your school 
stuff, but at this moment I am not forced to retreat to an operating system 
that crashed halfway through writing essays or researching. 

Here in the UK, the university system is slowly seeing the advantage for 
students, if they choose to to use a mac. And really, in the vast technology 
era we live in, it should be about what makes us as individuals more 
productive. And Apple's continual production of voice over and giving us more 
features, fixing bugs when we request it, shows how dedicated they are to all 
of their users, not just the mainstream market.

And I just did a very long post lol

On 15 Apr 2010, at 09:47, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> *grins* Sure do. I've got a coffee thermos next to me in my classroom. I'm 
> supposed to be diligently taking notes, but really, I'm writing blog posts, 
> tweeting, on seven messaging accounts, and browsing the web while taking 
> notes.
> 
> That said, James has a point here. NFB did retract their statement, although 
> their statement still was really bias. It said they wanted to open it up for 
> dialog, yet they continue to trash Apple in the same post.
> 
> It just saddens me why this has to happen. I love what Apple has done, and I 
> know they'll keep it up. I've never sent so many text messages from my 
> iPhone, never enjoyed a computer this much as a Mac, and had this much fun. 
> That's because I don't have to worry about any third-party installed screen 
> reading access software crashing, not starting up, giving me script errors, 
> and so-on.
> 
> I've really found the accessibility team, regardless of my issue, extremely 
> responsive. The longest time I have waited for a reply to either a 
> suggestion, comment or issue is a full day. Not longer than that. They've 
> replied to all my e-mails except one, and I have sent quite a few of them. 
> But despite that, the feature I asked for was implemented.
> 
> Regards,
> Nic
> Skype: Kvalme
> MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
> AIM: cincinster
> yahoo Messenger: cin368
> Facebook Profile
> My Twitter
> 
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 10:38 AM, Cody wrote:
> 
>> Is laughing
>> 
>> We got early morning coffee drinkers I see, this list is really jumpin
>> - Original Message - From: "Rob" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 4:27 AM
>> Subject: Re: What do you think?
>> 
>> 
>>> I saw they did and was surprised, and happy, to see that.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPod
>>> 
>>> On Apr 15, 2010, at 1:22 AM, "James & Nash" >>> wrote:
>>> 
 Although i've already posted on this, I just wanted to add that  despite 
 the criticism that has been levelled at NFB - and rightly,  they have 
>

Re: Who else has seen the iPad?

[Nicolai Svendsen]

Hi,

You are not the only one. Someone just send us iPads already. *smiles*

Regards,
Nic
Skype: Kvalme
MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
AIM: cincinster
yahoo Messenger: cin368
Facebook Profile
My Twitter

On Apr 15, 2010, at 11:30 AM, May McDonald wrote:

> Man, I am so jealous. Canada won't get the IPad until the end of next month, 
> cry cry.
> 
> May and Wyn
> On 2010-04-15, at 1:21 AM, Rob wrote:
> 
>> I played with it for an hour and a half. I was hooked. I just can't get over 
>> the large screen. I also can't decide if I should get the first generation, 
>> or wait. Engadget found a group of folk who tore down the iPad, and revealed 
>> the inner holdings for a webcam, the same as the iSight on the iMac & 
>> MacBooks.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPod
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
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>> For more options, visit this group at 
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>> 
> 
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Re: Who else has seen the iPad?

[marie Howarth]

I know, I know. in the same situation across the pond. I just can't wait to 
touch one and bring one home to live with the mac, the nano and the IPhone. :) 
what a happy little Apple family :)

On 15 Apr 2010, at 10:30, May McDonald wrote:

> Man, I am so jealous. Canada won't get the IPad until the end of next month, 
> cry cry.
> 
> May and Wyn
> On 2010-04-15, at 1:21 AM, Rob wrote:
> 
>> I played with it for an hour and a half. I was hooked. I just can't get over 
>> the large screen. I also can't decide if I should get the first generation, 
>> or wait. Engadget found a group of folk who tore down the iPad, and revealed 
>> the inner holdings for a webcam, the same as the iSight on the iMac & 
>> MacBooks.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPod
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
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>> 
> 
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Re: Who else has seen the iPad?

[Rob Lambert]

You'd think that, since Canada & the U.S. are so close, that Apple would
treat them the same, regarding shipping schedules. It's possible you guys
will get the WiFi & 3G models at the same time though, because we already
have the WiFi model in the states. We'll be getting the 3G model at the end
of the month.

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:30 AM, May McDonald wrote:

> Man, I am so jealous. Canada won't get the IPad until the end of next
> month, cry cry.
>
> May and Wyn
> On 2010-04-15, at 1:21 AM, Rob wrote:
>
> > I played with it for an hour and a half. I was hooked. I just can't get
> over the large screen. I also can't decide if I should get the first
> generation, or wait. Engadget found a group of folk who tore down the iPad,
> and revealed the inner holdings for a webcam, the same as the iSight on the
> iMac & MacBooks.
> >
> > Sent from my iPod
> >
> > --
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> "MacVisionaries" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
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> .
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> >
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Re: Who else has seen the iPad?

[marie Howarth]

Not sure about Canada, but it's looking like the UK will get both 3G and wifi 
at the same times. Three of our major networks stated yesterday that they will 
be offering "dedicated plans" for the IPads at the end of May. *rubs hands 
together* :) 
It was the only good news I got yesterday lol :(

On 15 Apr 2010, at 10:33, Rob Lambert wrote:

> You'd think that, since Canada & the U.S. are so close, that Apple would 
> treat them the same, regarding shipping schedules. It's possible you guys 
> will get the WiFi & 3G models at the same time though, because we already 
> have the WiFi model in the states. We'll be getting the 3G model at the end 
> of the month. 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:30 AM, May McDonald  wrote:
> Man, I am so jealous. Canada won't get the IPad until the end of next month, 
> cry cry.
> 
> May and Wyn
> On 2010-04-15, at 1:21 AM, Rob wrote:
> 
> > I played with it for an hour and a half. I was hooked. I just can't get 
> > over the large screen. I also can't decide if I should get the first 
> > generation, or wait. Engadget found a group of folk who tore down the iPad, 
> > and revealed the inner holdings for a webcam, the same as the iSight on the 
> > iMac & MacBooks.
> >
> > Sent from my iPod
> >
> > --
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> > "MacVisionaries" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
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> >
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RE: new member

[Joe Plummer]

For other A T you can run boot camp or virtual windows to use them.
 


Sign,
Joe Plummer ( JP )
joeplum...@tds.net
 
-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:46 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: new member

Hello Denise,

I hope the word processor you are thinking of getting is iWork09, since MS
Office for Mac is not accessible.

As for Word documents of almost any level, TextEdit or Pages will read these
just fine.

I can't answer any of your other questions having never been a Windows user.

Cheers,

Anne

On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:27 PM, denise avant wrote:

> hello,
> after having my iphone for six months now, i have really enjoyed my
experience with apple. To that end, i am looking into purchasing a mac book
pro. In fact, i called for some specs today and have set one with 4 gig of
ram, and a 320 hard drive, 13 in screen. again this is just a possiblity.
> i will also have the word processor included. i will also have the
one-to-one training as there is a nearby apple store in chicago.
> i am curious as to what those of you who own macs have done about your
other windows based adatpive equipment, duxbury, openbook or k1000 and hw
stream companion? how easy is it to move ms word 2003 2007 docs over to
apple macs, still keep the formatting or move them back again?
> I thought of just keeping my netbook or sony  machine for these purposes.
there was also the idea given to me that i could have windows on one side
and the mac on the other side. any thoughts on these questions would be
apprciated.
>  
> 
> --
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Re: new member

[Rob Lambert]

Who here thinks we'll see the Mac replacing PCs in AT training offices?

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Joe Plummer  wrote:

> For other A T you can run boot camp or virtual windows to use them.
>
>
>
> Sign,
> Joe Plummer ( JP )
> joeplum...@tds.net
>
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:46 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: new member
>
> Hello Denise,
>
> I hope the word processor you are thinking of getting is iWork09, since MS
> Office for Mac is not accessible.
>
> As for Word documents of almost any level, TextEdit or Pages will read
> these
> just fine.
>
> I can't answer any of your other questions having never been a Windows
> user.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Anne
>
> On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:27 PM, denise avant wrote:
>
> > hello,
> > after having my iphone for six months now, i have really enjoyed my
> experience with apple. To that end, i am looking into purchasing a mac book
> pro. In fact, i called for some specs today and have set one with 4 gig of
> ram, and a 320 hard drive, 13 in screen. again this is just a possiblity.
> > i will also have the word processor included. i will also have the
> one-to-one training as there is a nearby apple store in chicago.
> > i am curious as to what those of you who own macs have done about your
> other windows based adatpive equipment, duxbury, openbook or k1000 and hw
> stream companion? how easy is it to move ms word 2003 2007 docs over to
> apple macs, still keep the formatting or move them back again?
> > I thought of just keeping my netbook or sony  machine for these purposes.
> there was also the idea given to me that i could have windows on one side
> and the mac on the other side. any thoughts on these questions would be
> apprciated.
> >
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
> .
> > For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
> >
>
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RE: new member

[Dónal Fitzpatrick]

I'd very much doubt it Rob.  I don't know what it's like in other countries,
but here in Ireland most of the trainers are actually sighted.  Macs haven't
penetrated the mainstream userbase to the same extent as windows-based Pcs.
Consequently the level of knowledge among the trainers on the actual OS
itself (not including VO) is virtually non existent.  The fact that the
trainers would have to go and learn an entirely new platform, and then
educate themselves in a new style of assistive technology makes it pretty
certain that the majority of blind users will be stuck with Jaws and other
badly implemented screenreaders for the foreseeable future.
 
It's sad, but in my opinion true that this is the case.
 
Dónal

  _  

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob Lambert
Sent: 15 April 2010 10:47
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: new member


Who here thinks we'll see the Mac replacing PCs in AT training offices? 


On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Joe Plummer  wrote:


For other A T you can run boot camp or virtual windows to use them.



Sign,
Joe Plummer ( JP )
joeplum...@tds.net


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:46 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: new member

Hello Denise,

I hope the word processor you are thinking of getting is iWork09, since MS
Office for Mac is not accessible.

As for Word documents of almost any level, TextEdit or Pages will read these
just fine.

I can't answer any of your other questions having never been a Windows user.

Cheers,

Anne

On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:27 PM, denise avant wrote:

> hello,
> after having my iphone for six months now, i have really enjoyed my
experience with apple. To that end, i am looking into purchasing a mac book
pro. In fact, i called for some specs today and have set one with 4 gig of
ram, and a 320 hard drive, 13 in screen. again this is just a possiblity.
> i will also have the word processor included. i will also have the
one-to-one training as there is a nearby apple store in chicago.
> i am curious as to what those of you who own macs have done about your
other windows based adatpive equipment, duxbury, openbook or k1000 and hw
stream companion? how easy is it to move ms word 2003 2007 docs over to
apple macs, still keep the formatting or move them back again?
> I thought of just keeping my netbook or sony  machine for these purposes.
there was also the idea given to me that i could have windows on one side
and the mac on the other side. any thoughts on these questions would be
apprciated.
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"MacVisionaries" group.
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> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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 .
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Re: new member

[Ricardo Walker]

I think it's happening slowly already.  It is just a more cost effective 
solution than windows computers with the price of a screenreader  thrown in.  
The transition will take a while because contracts need to be fulfilled and 
such other things.  Then we will see thee Mac more in schools, government 
agencies and the like. 
On Apr 15, 2010, at 5:46 AM, Rob Lambert wrote:

> Who here thinks we'll see the Mac replacing PCs in AT training offices? 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Joe Plummer  wrote:
> For other A T you can run boot camp or virtual windows to use them.
> 
> 
> 
> Sign,
> Joe Plummer ( JP )
> joeplum...@tds.net
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:46 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: new member
> 
> Hello Denise,
> 
> I hope the word processor you are thinking of getting is iWork09, since MS
> Office for Mac is not accessible.
> 
> As for Word documents of almost any level, TextEdit or Pages will read these
> just fine.
> 
> I can't answer any of your other questions having never been a Windows user.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Anne
> 
> On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:27 PM, denise avant wrote:
> 
> > hello,
> > after having my iphone for six months now, i have really enjoyed my
> experience with apple. To that end, i am looking into purchasing a mac book
> pro. In fact, i called for some specs today and have set one with 4 gig of
> ram, and a 320 hard drive, 13 in screen. again this is just a possiblity.
> > i will also have the word processor included. i will also have the
> one-to-one training as there is a nearby apple store in chicago.
> > i am curious as to what those of you who own macs have done about your
> other windows based adatpive equipment, duxbury, openbook or k1000 and hw
> stream companion? how easy is it to move ms word 2003 2007 docs over to
> apple macs, still keep the formatting or move them back again?
> > I thought of just keeping my netbook or sony  machine for these purposes.
> there was also the idea given to me that i could have windows on one side
> and the mac on the other side. any thoughts on these questions would be
> apprciated.
> >
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
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> >
> 
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Re: new member

[Rob Lambert]

I think the same is true here in the states, though it seems to be changing,
I think.

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:55 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote:

> I think it's happening slowly already.  It is just a more cost effective
> solution than windows computers with the price of a screenreader  thrown in.
>  The transition will take a while because contracts need to be fulfilled and
> such other things.  Then we will see thee Mac more in schools, government
> agencies and the like.
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 5:46 AM, Rob Lambert wrote:
>
> Who here thinks we'll see the Mac replacing PCs in AT training offices?
>
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Joe Plummer  wrote:
>
>> For other A T you can run boot camp or virtual windows to use them.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sign,
>> Joe Plummer ( JP )
>> joeplum...@tds.net
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:46 PM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: new member
>>
>> Hello Denise,
>>
>> I hope the word processor you are thinking of getting is iWork09, since MS
>> Office for Mac is not accessible.
>>
>> As for Word documents of almost any level, TextEdit or Pages will read
>> these
>> just fine.
>>
>> I can't answer any of your other questions having never been a Windows
>> user.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Anne
>>
>> On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:27 PM, denise avant wrote:
>>
>> > hello,
>> > after having my iphone for six months now, i have really enjoyed my
>> experience with apple. To that end, i am looking into purchasing a mac
>> book
>> pro. In fact, i called for some specs today and have set one with 4 gig of
>> ram, and a 320 hard drive, 13 in screen. again this is just a possiblity.
>> > i will also have the word processor included. i will also have the
>> one-to-one training as there is a nearby apple store in chicago.
>> > i am curious as to what those of you who own macs have done about your
>> other windows based adatpive equipment, duxbury, openbook or k1000 and hw
>> stream companion? how easy is it to move ms word 2003 2007 docs over to
>> apple macs, still keep the formatting or move them back again?
>> > I thought of just keeping my netbook or sony  machine for these
>> purposes.
>> there was also the idea given to me that i could have windows on one side
>> and the mac on the other side. any thoughts on these questions would be
>> apprciated.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
>> .
>> > For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
>> >
>>
>> --
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>> .
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>>
>>
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>>
>
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Re: new member

[Ricardo Walker]

Hi Donald,

I disagree.  I think economics will come in to play in the next 3 to 5 years.  
The cost of getting a Mac will justify it being looked into as a viable option 
for agencies.  There are more blind Mac users every day.  I live in New York 
City and got my first experience to a Mac at a course in intro to the Mac and 
voiceover as well as garageband I took in the summer of 2008 at the Lighthouse. 
 I assume such courses will catch on in the future.   
On Apr 15, 2010, at 5:54 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote:

> I'd very much doubt it Rob.  I don't know what it's like in other countries, 
> but here in Ireland most of the trainers are actually sighted.  Macs haven't 
> penetrated the mainstream userbase to the same extent as windows-based Pcs.  
> Consequently the level of knowledge among the trainers on the actual OS 
> itself (not including VO) is virtually non existent.  The fact that the 
> trainers would have to go and learn an entirely new platform, and then 
> educate themselves in a new style of assistive technology makes it pretty 
> certain that the majority of blind users will be stuck with Jaws and other 
> badly implemented screenreaders for the foreseeable future.
>  
> It's sad, but in my opinion true that this is the case.
>  
> Dónal
> 
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob Lambert
> Sent: 15 April 2010 10:47
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: new member
> 
> Who here thinks we'll see the Mac replacing PCs in AT training offices? 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Joe Plummer  wrote:
> For other A T you can run boot camp or virtual windows to use them.
> 
> 
> 
> Sign,
> Joe Plummer ( JP )
> joeplum...@tds.net
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:46 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: new member
> 
> Hello Denise,
> 
> I hope the word processor you are thinking of getting is iWork09, since MS
> Office for Mac is not accessible.
> 
> As for Word documents of almost any level, TextEdit or Pages will read these
> just fine.
> 
> I can't answer any of your other questions having never been a Windows user.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Anne
> 
> On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:27 PM, denise avant wrote:
> 
> > hello,
> > after having my iphone for six months now, i have really enjoyed my
> experience with apple. To that end, i am looking into purchasing a mac book
> pro. In fact, i called for some specs today and have set one with 4 gig of
> ram, and a 320 hard drive, 13 in screen. again this is just a possiblity.
> > i will also have the word processor included. i will also have the
> one-to-one training as there is a nearby apple store in chicago.
> > i am curious as to what those of you who own macs have done about your
> other windows based adatpive equipment, duxbury, openbook or k1000 and hw
> stream companion? how easy is it to move ms word 2003 2007 docs over to
> apple macs, still keep the formatting or move them back again?
> > I thought of just keeping my netbook or sony  machine for these purposes.
> there was also the idea given to me that i could have windows on one side
> and the mac on the other side. any thoughts on these questions would be
> apprciated.
> >
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
> >
> 
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> 
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RE: new member

[Dónal Fitzpatrick]

Ricardo I am delighted to hear that's the case, however here I can't see it
happening for quite some time.  Only the "techie" people are using iPhones,
and even then it's happening by word-of-mouth.  Blind people using the Mac
is almost unheard of over here.
 
Bring on the revolution! 

  _  

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ricardo Walker
Sent: 15 April 2010 11:02
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: new member


Hi Donald, 

I disagree.  I think economics will come in to play in the next 3 to 5
years.  The cost of getting a Mac will justify it being looked into as a
viable option for agencies.  There are more blind Mac users every day.  I
live in New York City and got my first experience to a Mac at a course in
intro to the Mac and voiceover as well as garageband I took in the summer of
2008 at the Lighthouse.  I assume such courses will catch on in the future.


On Apr 15, 2010, at 5:54 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote:


I'd very much doubt it Rob.  I don't know what it's like in other countries,
but here in Ireland most of the trainers are actually sighted.  Macs haven't
penetrated the mainstream userbase to the same extent as windows-based Pcs.
Consequently the level of knowledge among the trainers on the actual OS
itself (not including VO) is virtually non existent.  The fact that the
trainers would have to go and learn an entirely new platform, and then
educate themselves in a new style of assistive technology makes it pretty
certain that the majority of blind users will be stuck with Jaws and other
badly implemented screenreaders for the foreseeable future.
 
It's sad, but in my opinion true that this is the case.
 
Dónal

  _  

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob Lambert
Sent: 15 April 2010 10:47
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: new member


Who here thinks we'll see the Mac replacing PCs in AT training offices? 


On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Joe Plummer  wrote:


For other A T you can run boot camp or virtual windows to use them.



Sign,
Joe Plummer ( JP )
joeplum...@tds.net


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:46 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: new member

Hello Denise,

I hope the word processor you are thinking of getting is iWork09, since MS
Office for Mac is not accessible.

As for Word documents of almost any level, TextEdit or Pages will read these
just fine.

I can't answer any of your other questions having never been a Windows user.

Cheers,

Anne

On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:27 PM, denise avant wrote:

> hello,
> after having my iphone for six months now, i have really enjoyed my
experience with apple. To that end, i am looking into purchasing a mac book
pro. In fact, i called for some specs today and have set one with 4 gig of
ram, and a 320 hard drive, 13 in screen. again this is just a possiblity.
> i will also have the word processor included. i will also have the
one-to-one training as there is a nearby apple store in chicago.
> i am curious as to what those of you who own macs have done about your
other windows based adatpive equipment, duxbury, openbook or k1000 and hw
stream companion? how easy is it to move ms word 2003 2007 docs over to
apple macs, still keep the formatting or move them back again?
> I thought of just keeping my netbook or sony  machine for these purposes.
there was also the idea given to me that i could have windows on one side
and the mac on the other side. any thoughts on these questions would be
apprciated.
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"MacVisionaries" group.
> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
 .
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You received thi

Re: new member

[Rob Lambert]

My theory is this: The more Mac users, the better. It will drive the other
guys to come up with the same thing for their system, where you could walk
up to a Windows PC, and press a button, and it starts talking. Narrator
doesn't count. LOL

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:07 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick <
dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie> wrote:

>  Ricardo I am delighted to hear that's the case, however here I can't see
> it happening for quite some time.  Only the "techie" people are using
> iPhones, and even then it's happening by word-of-mouth.  Blind people using
> the Mac is almost unheard of over here.
>
> Bring on the revolution! 
>
>  --
> *From:* macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:
> macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Ricardo Walker
> *Sent:* 15 April 2010 11:02
>
> *To:* macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: new member
>
> Hi Donald,
>
> I disagree.  I think economics will come in to play in the next 3 to 5
> years.  The cost of getting a Mac will justify it being looked into as a
> viable option for agencies.  There are more blind Mac users every day.  I
> live in New York City and got my first experience to a Mac at a course in
> intro to the Mac and voiceover as well as garageband I took in the summer of
> 2008 at the Lighthouse.  I assume such courses will catch on in the future.
>
>  On Apr 15, 2010, at 5:54 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote:
>
>  I'd very much doubt it Rob.  I don't know what it's like in other
> countries, but here in Ireland most of the trainers are actually sighted.
> Macs haven't penetrated the mainstream userbase to the same extent as
> windows-based Pcs.  Consequently the level of knowledge among the trainers
> on the actual OS itself (not including VO) is virtually non existent.  The
> fact that the trainers would have to go and learn an entirely new platform,
> and then educate themselves in a new style of assistive technology makes it
> pretty certain that the majority of blind users will be stuck with Jaws and
> other badly implemented screenreaders for the foreseeable future.
>
> It's sad, but in my opinion true that this is the case.
>
> Dónal
>
>  --
> *From:* macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:
> macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Rob Lambert
> *Sent:* 15 April 2010 10:47
> *To:* macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: new member
>
> Who here thinks we'll see the Mac replacing PCs in AT training offices?
>
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Joe Plummer  wrote:
>
>> For other A T you can run boot camp or virtual windows to use them.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sign,
>> Joe Plummer ( JP )
>> joeplum...@tds.net
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:46 PM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: new member
>>
>> Hello Denise,
>>
>> I hope the word processor you are thinking of getting is iWork09, since MS
>> Office for Mac is not accessible.
>>
>> As for Word documents of almost any level, TextEdit or Pages will read
>> these
>> just fine.
>>
>> I can't answer any of your other questions having never been a Windows
>> user.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Anne
>>
>> On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:27 PM, denise avant wrote:
>>
>> > hello,
>> > after having my iphone for six months now, i have really enjoyed my
>> experience with apple. To that end, i am looking into purchasing a mac
>> book
>> pro. In fact, i called for some specs today and have set one with 4 gig of
>> ram, and a 320 hard drive, 13 in screen. again this is just a possiblity.
>> > i will also have the word processor included. i will also have the
>> one-to-one training as there is a nearby apple store in chicago.
>> > i am curious as to what those of you who own macs have done about your
>> other windows based adatpive equipment, duxbury, openbook or k1000 and hw
>> stream companion? how easy is it to move ms word 2003 2007 docs over to
>> apple macs, still keep the formatting or move them back again?
>> > I thought of just keeping my netbook or sony  machine for these
>> purposes.
>> there was also the idea given to me that i could have windows on one side
>> and the mac on the other side. any thoughts on these questions would be
>> apprciated.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
>> .
>> > For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
>> >
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> macvisionar

Re: What do you think?

[Krister Ekstrom]

Nic, just out of curiosity, what is the danish organisation for the blinds view 
on Apple products?
I have a feeling, though i could be wrong, that the swedish blindness 
organisation is a bit on the conservative side when it comes to the Apple 
products, however i could be wrong.
/Krister


15 apr 2010 kl. 09.14 skrev Nicolai Svendsen:

> Hi,
> 
> I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been around for 
> six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to do with it. Apple is 
> going to keep it up because they are committed. The article about the lawsuit 
> doesn't actually mention Apple much.
> 
> There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a threat to the NFB 
> of taking over the technical market. This is why NFB did not sue Skype, but 
> Apple. Agreement or not, I'm pretty sure they listened to users using 
> Outspoken and such, rather than an organization that can't even review the 
> product properly when it is out. Apple has done far more than anyone for 
> accessibility improvements. Apple said they had something in store, and they 
> sure did. I of course realize that it is a pretty serious statement. Of 
> course, I am not particularly a fan of the NFB at all. Saying that, NFB has 
> made some seriously inaccurate statements as well, far outweighing mine. NFB 
> actually has no reason to sue Apple. What would they sue them for, exactly? 
> Because their products are accessible, and they want everyone to pay more 
> than what a Macbook costs for assistive technology? That wouldn't actually 
> surprise me much. It's all about competition. If they think they're about to 
> be kicked out, of course they would consider Apple a threat. Because Apple 
> has done something Microsoft has not. All these things sound really twisted 
> and disgusting to me.
> 
> Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to do with 
> iTunes on the Windows side. Fair enough, but that is a pretty ridiculous suit 
> if it really is based on accessibility. That is not the case, however, as 
> there are plenty of other useful programs for PCs that are not anywhere near 
> as accessible as iTunes 9. And NFB doesn't care about that. Which, again, 
> leads me to believe that, because NFB is scared of being kicked out, they do 
> everything they can to stop people buying their product. That would make 
> sense.
> 
> Windows users rely on scripts all the time to use any application. I suggest 
> you look through your jAWS folder to see what I mean. Have you even seen just 
> the download size of a JAWS installation? It's outrageous. People who moan 
> about iTunes not being accessible just because the interface accidentally 
> broke, just need to use scripts like they do for everything else. I'm 
> surprised that wasn't their first complaint. JAWS, or just Windows in 
> general, isn't even that stable. If JAWS crashes, it's stupidly difficult 
> most of the time to reload the product. Even if you manage to do so, you will 
> probably run into the screen not being read correctly when reading list boxes 
> or with the cursor. Or, the worst-case scenario. You have to uninstall JAWS 
> 11 after attempting to install Video Intercept, reinstall JAWS 10, install 
> VIdeo Intercept, uninstall JAWS 10 then reinstall JAWS 11.
> 
> Maybe I'm slamming the NFB a bit, but really, they need a kick in the ass. 
> I'm just happy the Danish blindness organizations are not this corrupt and 
> twisted, and they actually review fairly and take a proper look at what a 
> company offers before suing them. I'll always be negative about the NFB, 
> though I am actually being neutral when talking about the actual lawsuit 
> itself.
> 
> Say what you want to, it won't change my mind. Even if it is someone from NFB 
> saying it. Some NFB people are great. Some do incredibly good reviews. Some 
> don't. And in whole, I think the organization just sucks for filing 
> unnecessary lawsuits for nothing. Maybe I'm going on a childish tantrum here, 
> perhaps. But once in a while, you need to. A company is trying to provide 
> great accessibility for their products, and they are sued because of one 
> problem. iTunes is actually still useful on the Windows side, people. Quit 
> your darn nitpicking.
> 
> Regards,
> Nic
> Skype: Kvalme
> MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
> AIM: cincinster
> yahoo Messenger: cin368
> Facebook Profile
> My Twitter
> 
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 8:08 AM, Rob Lambert wrote:
> 
>> I just got wind, from a friend of mine, that the only reason Apple is 
>> accessible to us is because of a lawsuit by the NFB. The term of the 
>> agreement was for accessibility improvements for three years. Here's a 
>> question. First, what's your side of this ordeal? Second, who thinks Apple 
>> will keep up with the accessibility improvements after this three year term 
>> is up? I apologize for making smooth waters mirky, I just wanted to know 
>> what your take on this was. 
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received t

Re: What do you think?

[Rob Lambert]

I'd be interested in knowing this as well. :)

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:11 AM, Krister Ekstrom
wrote:

> Nic, just out of curiosity, what is the danish organisation for the blinds
> view on Apple products?
> I have a feeling, though i could be wrong, that the swedish blindness
> organisation is a bit on the conservative side when it comes to the Apple
> products, however i could be wrong.
> /Krister
>
>
> 15 apr 2010 kl. 09.14 skrev Nicolai Svendsen:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been around
> for six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to do with it. Apple
> is going to keep it up because they are committed. The article about the
> lawsuit doesn't actually mention Apple much.
> >
> > There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a threat to the
> NFB of taking over the technical market. This is why NFB did not sue Skype,
> but Apple. Agreement or not, I'm pretty sure they listened to users using
> Outspoken and such, rather than an organization that can't even review the
> product properly when it is out. Apple has done far more than anyone for
> accessibility improvements. Apple said they had something in store, and they
> sure did. I of course realize that it is a pretty serious statement. Of
> course, I am not particularly a fan of the NFB at all. Saying that, NFB has
> made some seriously inaccurate statements as well, far outweighing mine. NFB
> actually has no reason to sue Apple. What would they sue them for, exactly?
> Because their products are accessible, and they want everyone to pay more
> than what a Macbook costs for assistive technology? That wouldn't actually
> surprise me much. It's all about competition. If they think they're about to
> be kicked out, of course they would consider Apple a threat. Because Apple
> has done something Microsoft has not. All these things sound really twisted
> and disgusting to me.
> >
> > Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to do with
> iTunes on the Windows side. Fair enough, but that is a pretty ridiculous
> suit if it really is based on accessibility. That is not the case, however,
> as there are plenty of other useful programs for PCs that are not anywhere
> near as accessible as iTunes 9. And NFB doesn't care about that. Which,
> again, leads me to believe that, because NFB is scared of being kicked out,
> they do everything they can to stop people buying their product. That would
> make sense.
> >
> > Windows users rely on scripts all the time to use any application. I
> suggest you look through your jAWS folder to see what I mean. Have you even
> seen just the download size of a JAWS installation? It's outrageous. People
> who moan about iTunes not being accessible just because the interface
> accidentally broke, just need to use scripts like they do for everything
> else. I'm surprised that wasn't their first complaint. JAWS, or just Windows
> in general, isn't even that stable. If JAWS crashes, it's stupidly difficult
> most of the time to reload the product. Even if you manage to do so, you
> will probably run into the screen not being read correctly when reading list
> boxes or with the cursor. Or, the worst-case scenario. You have to uninstall
> JAWS 11 after attempting to install Video Intercept, reinstall JAWS 10,
> install VIdeo Intercept, uninstall JAWS 10 then reinstall JAWS 11.
> >
> > Maybe I'm slamming the NFB a bit, but really, they need a kick in the
> ass. I'm just happy the Danish blindness organizations are not this corrupt
> and twisted, and they actually review fairly and take a proper look at what
> a company offers before suing them. I'll always be negative about the NFB,
> though I am actually being neutral when talking about the actual lawsuit
> itself.
> >
> > Say what you want to, it won't change my mind. Even if it is someone from
> NFB saying it. Some NFB people are great. Some do incredibly good reviews.
> Some don't. And in whole, I think the organization just sucks for filing
> unnecessary lawsuits for nothing. Maybe I'm going on a childish tantrum
> here, perhaps. But once in a while, you need to. A company is trying to
> provide great accessibility for their products, and they are sued because of
> one problem. iTunes is actually still useful on the Windows side, people.
> Quit your darn nitpicking.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Nic
> > Skype: Kvalme
> > MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
> > AIM: cincinster
> > yahoo Messenger: cin368
> > Facebook Profile
> > My Twitter
> >
> > On Apr 15, 2010, at 8:08 AM, Rob Lambert wrote:
> >
> >> I just got wind, from a friend of mine, that the only reason Apple is
> accessible to us is because of a lawsuit by the NFB. The term of the
> agreement was for accessibility improvements for three years. Here's a
> question. First, what's your side of this ordeal? Second, who thinks Apple
> will keep up with the accessibility improvements after this three year term
> is up? I apologize for making s

Re: new member

[marie Howarth]

I think it all depends on the user and their attitude too. An individual may 
hear about macs on a podcast or know of another user with a mac who is also VI, 
and take themselves off to the Apple store. In manchester, I know due to myself 
and a few other VI customers, most of the staff in the store are highly 
familiar with voice over. As for training, I think its coming from Apple in the 
near future. 

On 15 Apr 2010, at 10:54, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote:

> I'd very much doubt it Rob.  I don't know what it's like in other countries, 
> but here in Ireland most of the trainers are actually sighted.  Macs haven't 
> penetrated the mainstream userbase to the same extent as windows-based Pcs.  
> Consequently the level of knowledge among the trainers on the actual OS 
> itself (not including VO) is virtually non existent.  The fact that the 
> trainers would have to go and learn an entirely new platform, and then 
> educate themselves in a new style of assistive technology makes it pretty 
> certain that the majority of blind users will be stuck with Jaws and other 
> badly implemented screenreaders for the foreseeable future.
>  
> It's sad, but in my opinion true that this is the case.
>  
> Dónal
> 
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob Lambert
> Sent: 15 April 2010 10:47
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: new member
> 
> Who here thinks we'll see the Mac replacing PCs in AT training offices? 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Joe Plummer  wrote:
> For other A T you can run boot camp or virtual windows to use them.
> 
> 
> 
> Sign,
> Joe Plummer ( JP )
> joeplum...@tds.net
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:46 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: new member
> 
> Hello Denise,
> 
> I hope the word processor you are thinking of getting is iWork09, since MS
> Office for Mac is not accessible.
> 
> As for Word documents of almost any level, TextEdit or Pages will read these
> just fine.
> 
> I can't answer any of your other questions having never been a Windows user.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Anne
> 
> On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:27 PM, denise avant wrote:
> 
> > hello,
> > after having my iphone for six months now, i have really enjoyed my
> experience with apple. To that end, i am looking into purchasing a mac book
> pro. In fact, i called for some specs today and have set one with 4 gig of
> ram, and a 320 hard drive, 13 in screen. again this is just a possiblity.
> > i will also have the word processor included. i will also have the
> one-to-one training as there is a nearby apple store in chicago.
> > i am curious as to what those of you who own macs have done about your
> other windows based adatpive equipment, duxbury, openbook or k1000 and hw
> stream companion? how easy is it to move ms word 2003 2007 docs over to
> apple macs, still keep the formatting or move them back again?
> > I thought of just keeping my netbook or sony  machine for these purposes.
> there was also the idea given to me that i could have windows on one side
> and the mac on the other side. any thoughts on these questions would be
> apprciated.
> >
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
> >
> 
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
> 
> 
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at 
> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
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> 
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Re: new member

[Rob Lambert]

I agree. Only time will tell, of course. Who better to train people on their
products than Apple themselves? I haven't used it, but I do like their
one-to-one service, and my hope is they've set aside some staff that have
been trained in VoiceOver for us. If not, they should.

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:24 AM, marie Howarth wrote:

> I think it all depends on the user and their attitude too. An individual
> may hear about macs on a podcast or know of another user with a mac who is
> also VI, and take themselves off to the Apple store. In manchester, I know
> due to myself and a few other VI customers, most of the staff in the store
> are highly familiar with voice over. As for training, I think its coming
> from Apple in the near future.
>
> On 15 Apr 2010, at 10:54, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote:
>
>  I'd very much doubt it Rob.  I don't know what it's like in other
> countries, but here in Ireland most of the trainers are actually sighted.
> Macs haven't penetrated the mainstream userbase to the same extent as
> windows-based Pcs.  Consequently the level of knowledge among the trainers
> on the actual OS itself (not including VO) is virtually non existent.  The
> fact that the trainers would have to go and learn an entirely new platform,
> and then educate themselves in a new style of assistive technology makes it
> pretty certain that the majority of blind users will be stuck with Jaws and
> other badly implemented screenreaders for the foreseeable future.
>
> It's sad, but in my opinion true that this is the case.
>
> Dónal
>
>  --
> *From:* macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:
> macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Rob Lambert
> *Sent:* 15 April 2010 10:47
> *To:* macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: new member
>
> Who here thinks we'll see the Mac replacing PCs in AT training offices?
>
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Joe Plummer  wrote:
>
>> For other A T you can run boot camp or virtual windows to use them.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sign,
>> Joe Plummer ( JP )
>> joeplum...@tds.net
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:46 PM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: new member
>>
>> Hello Denise,
>>
>> I hope the word processor you are thinking of getting is iWork09, since MS
>> Office for Mac is not accessible.
>>
>> As for Word documents of almost any level, TextEdit or Pages will read
>> these
>> just fine.
>>
>> I can't answer any of your other questions having never been a Windows
>> user.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Anne
>>
>> On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:27 PM, denise avant wrote:
>>
>> > hello,
>> > after having my iphone for six months now, i have really enjoyed my
>> experience with apple. To that end, i am looking into purchasing a mac
>> book
>> pro. In fact, i called for some specs today and have set one with 4 gig of
>> ram, and a 320 hard drive, 13 in screen. again this is just a possiblity.
>> > i will also have the word processor included. i will also have the
>> one-to-one training as there is a nearby apple store in chicago.
>> > i am curious as to what those of you who own macs have done about your
>> other windows based adatpive equipment, duxbury, openbook or k1000 and hw
>> stream companion? how easy is it to move ms word 2003 2007 docs over to
>> apple macs, still keep the formatting or move them back again?
>> > I thought of just keeping my netbook or sony  machine for these
>> purposes.
>> there was also the idea given to me that i could have windows on one side
>> and the mac on the other side. any thoughts on these questions would be
>> apprciated.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
>> .
>> > For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
>> >
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
>> .
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
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>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
>> .
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
>>
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups

Re: What do you think?

[marie Howarth]

The RNIB seems to be ignoring apple. I'm currently working with their sister 
company as the RNIB and action for the blind merged recently so RNIB carries 
out the campaigning and such and action provides support. They didn't even know 
the mac could talk. This saddens me as I know there are an increasing number of 
UK mac users and to think a huge support organisation like this is either aware 
and choosing to ignore this or simply is not aware of it angers  me.

On 15 Apr 2010, at 11:11, Krister Ekstrom wrote:

> Nic, just out of curiosity, what is the danish organisation for the blinds 
> view on Apple products?
> I have a feeling, though i could be wrong, that the swedish blindness 
> organisation is a bit on the conservative side when it comes to the Apple 
> products, however i could be wrong.
> /Krister
> 
> 
> 15 apr 2010 kl. 09.14 skrev Nicolai Svendsen:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been around for 
>> six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to do with it. Apple is 
>> going to keep it up because they are committed. The article about the 
>> lawsuit doesn't actually mention Apple much.
>> 
>> There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a threat to the NFB 
>> of taking over the technical market. This is why NFB did not sue Skype, but 
>> Apple. Agreement or not, I'm pretty sure they listened to users using 
>> Outspoken and such, rather than an organization that can't even review the 
>> product properly when it is out. Apple has done far more than anyone for 
>> accessibility improvements. Apple said they had something in store, and they 
>> sure did. I of course realize that it is a pretty serious statement. Of 
>> course, I am not particularly a fan of the NFB at all. Saying that, NFB has 
>> made some seriously inaccurate statements as well, far outweighing mine. NFB 
>> actually has no reason to sue Apple. What would they sue them for, exactly? 
>> Because their products are accessible, and they want everyone to pay more 
>> than what a Macbook costs for assistive technology? That wouldn't actually 
>> surprise me much. It's all about competition. If they think they're about to 
>> be kicked out, of course they would consider Apple a threat. Because Apple 
>> has done something Microsoft has not. All these things sound really twisted 
>> and disgusting to me.
>> 
>> Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to do with 
>> iTunes on the Windows side. Fair enough, but that is a pretty ridiculous 
>> suit if it really is based on accessibility. That is not the case, however, 
>> as there are plenty of other useful programs for PCs that are not anywhere 
>> near as accessible as iTunes 9. And NFB doesn't care about that. Which, 
>> again, leads me to believe that, because NFB is scared of being kicked out, 
>> they do everything they can to stop people buying their product. That would 
>> make sense.
>> 
>> Windows users rely on scripts all the time to use any application. I suggest 
>> you look through your jAWS folder to see what I mean. Have you even seen 
>> just the download size of a JAWS installation? It's outrageous. People who 
>> moan about iTunes not being accessible just because the interface 
>> accidentally broke, just need to use scripts like they do for everything 
>> else. I'm surprised that wasn't their first complaint. JAWS, or just Windows 
>> in general, isn't even that stable. If JAWS crashes, it's stupidly difficult 
>> most of the time to reload the product. Even if you manage to do so, you 
>> will probably run into the screen not being read correctly when reading list 
>> boxes or with the cursor. Or, the worst-case scenario. You have to uninstall 
>> JAWS 11 after attempting to install Video Intercept, reinstall JAWS 10, 
>> install VIdeo Intercept, uninstall JAWS 10 then reinstall JAWS 11.
>> 
>> Maybe I'm slamming the NFB a bit, but really, they need a kick in the ass. 
>> I'm just happy the Danish blindness organizations are not this corrupt and 
>> twisted, and they actually review fairly and take a proper look at what a 
>> company offers before suing them. I'll always be negative about the NFB, 
>> though I am actually being neutral when talking about the actual lawsuit 
>> itself.
>> 
>> Say what you want to, it won't change my mind. Even if it is someone from 
>> NFB saying it. Some NFB people are great. Some do incredibly good reviews. 
>> Some don't. And in whole, I think the organization just sucks for filing 
>> unnecessary lawsuits for nothing. Maybe I'm going on a childish tantrum 
>> here, perhaps. But once in a while, you need to. A company is trying to 
>> provide great accessibility for their products, and they are sued because of 
>> one problem. iTunes is actually still useful on the Windows side, people. 
>> Quit your darn nitpicking.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Nic
>> Skype: Kvalme
>> MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
>> AIM: cincinster
>> yahoo Messenger: cin368

Re: new member

[marie Howarth]

I know in my local store, there are two designated VO trainers and other staff 
constantly tell me they have played with VO on varying products. I think where 
there is a demand for it it will happen. Apple is extremely flexible. :)

On 15 Apr 2010, at 11:27, Rob Lambert wrote:

> I agree. Only time will tell, of course. Who better to train people on their 
> products than Apple themselves? I haven't used it, but I do like their 
> one-to-one service, and my hope is they've set aside some staff that have 
> been trained in VoiceOver for us. If not, they should. 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:24 AM, marie Howarth  
> wrote:
> I think it all depends on the user and their attitude too. An individual may 
> hear about macs on a podcast or know of another user with a mac who is also 
> VI, and take themselves off to the Apple store. In manchester, I know due to 
> myself and a few other VI customers, most of the staff in the store are 
> highly familiar with voice over. As for training, I think its coming from 
> Apple in the near future. 
> 
> On 15 Apr 2010, at 10:54, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote:
> 
>> I'd very much doubt it Rob.  I don't know what it's like in other countries, 
>> but here in Ireland most of the trainers are actually sighted.  Macs haven't 
>> penetrated the mainstream userbase to the same extent as windows-based Pcs.  
>> Consequently the level of knowledge among the trainers on the actual OS 
>> itself (not including VO) is virtually non existent.  The fact that the 
>> trainers would have to go and learn an entirely new platform, and then 
>> educate themselves in a new style of assistive technology makes it pretty 
>> certain that the majority of blind users will be stuck with Jaws and other 
>> badly implemented screenreaders for the foreseeable future.
>>  
>> It's sad, but in my opinion true that this is the case.
>>  
>> Dónal
>> 
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob Lambert
>> Sent: 15 April 2010 10:47
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: new member
>> 
>> Who here thinks we'll see the Mac replacing PCs in AT training offices? 
>> 
>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Joe Plummer  wrote:
>> For other A T you can run boot camp or virtual windows to use them.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sign,
>> Joe Plummer ( JP )
>> joeplum...@tds.net
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:46 PM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: new member
>> 
>> Hello Denise,
>> 
>> I hope the word processor you are thinking of getting is iWork09, since MS
>> Office for Mac is not accessible.
>> 
>> As for Word documents of almost any level, TextEdit or Pages will read these
>> just fine.
>> 
>> I can't answer any of your other questions having never been a Windows user.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Anne
>> 
>> On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:27 PM, denise avant wrote:
>> 
>> > hello,
>> > after having my iphone for six months now, i have really enjoyed my
>> experience with apple. To that end, i am looking into purchasing a mac book
>> pro. In fact, i called for some specs today and have set one with 4 gig of
>> ram, and a 320 hard drive, 13 in screen. again this is just a possiblity.
>> > i will also have the word processor included. i will also have the
>> one-to-one training as there is a nearby apple store in chicago.
>> > i am curious as to what those of you who own macs have done about your
>> other windows based adatpive equipment, duxbury, openbook or k1000 and hw
>> stream companion? how easy is it to move ms word 2003 2007 docs over to
>> apple macs, still keep the formatting or move them back again?
>> > I thought of just keeping my netbook or sony  machine for these purposes.
>> there was also the idea given to me that i could have windows on one side
>> and the mac on the other side. any thoughts on these questions would be
>> apprciated.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> > For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
>> >
>> 
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups

Re: What do you think?

[Rob Lambert]

That bugs me as well, and I'm not even from the UK.

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:28 AM, marie Howarth wrote:

> The RNIB seems to be ignoring apple. I'm currently working with their
> sister company as the RNIB and action for the blind merged recently so RNIB
> carries out the campaigning and such and action provides support. They
> didn't even know the mac could talk. This saddens me as I know there are an
> increasing number of UK mac users and to think a huge support organisation
> like this is either aware and choosing to ignore this or simply is not aware
> of it angers  me.
>
> On 15 Apr 2010, at 11:11, Krister Ekstrom wrote:
>
> > Nic, just out of curiosity, what is the danish organisation for the
> blinds view on Apple products?
> > I have a feeling, though i could be wrong, that the swedish blindness
> organisation is a bit on the conservative side when it comes to the Apple
> products, however i could be wrong.
> > /Krister
> >
> >
> > 15 apr 2010 kl. 09.14 skrev Nicolai Svendsen:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been around
> for six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to do with it. Apple
> is going to keep it up because they are committed. The article about the
> lawsuit doesn't actually mention Apple much.
> >>
> >> There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a threat to the
> NFB of taking over the technical market. This is why NFB did not sue Skype,
> but Apple. Agreement or not, I'm pretty sure they listened to users using
> Outspoken and such, rather than an organization that can't even review the
> product properly when it is out. Apple has done far more than anyone for
> accessibility improvements. Apple said they had something in store, and they
> sure did. I of course realize that it is a pretty serious statement. Of
> course, I am not particularly a fan of the NFB at all. Saying that, NFB has
> made some seriously inaccurate statements as well, far outweighing mine. NFB
> actually has no reason to sue Apple. What would they sue them for, exactly?
> Because their products are accessible, and they want everyone to pay more
> than what a Macbook costs for assistive technology? That wouldn't actually
> surprise me much. It's all about competition. If they think they're about to
> be kicked out, of course they would consider Apple a threat. Because Apple
> has done something Microsoft has not. All these things sound really twisted
> and disgusting to me.
> >>
> >> Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to do with
> iTunes on the Windows side. Fair enough, but that is a pretty ridiculous
> suit if it really is based on accessibility. That is not the case, however,
> as there are plenty of other useful programs for PCs that are not anywhere
> near as accessible as iTunes 9. And NFB doesn't care about that. Which,
> again, leads me to believe that, because NFB is scared of being kicked out,
> they do everything they can to stop people buying their product. That would
> make sense.
> >>
> >> Windows users rely on scripts all the time to use any application. I
> suggest you look through your jAWS folder to see what I mean. Have you even
> seen just the download size of a JAWS installation? It's outrageous. People
> who moan about iTunes not being accessible just because the interface
> accidentally broke, just need to use scripts like they do for everything
> else. I'm surprised that wasn't their first complaint. JAWS, or just Windows
> in general, isn't even that stable. If JAWS crashes, it's stupidly difficult
> most of the time to reload the product. Even if you manage to do so, you
> will probably run into the screen not being read correctly when reading list
> boxes or with the cursor. Or, the worst-case scenario. You have to uninstall
> JAWS 11 after attempting to install Video Intercept, reinstall JAWS 10,
> install VIdeo Intercept, uninstall JAWS 10 then reinstall JAWS 11.
> >>
> >> Maybe I'm slamming the NFB a bit, but really, they need a kick in the
> ass. I'm just happy the Danish blindness organizations are not this corrupt
> and twisted, and they actually review fairly and take a proper look at what
> a company offers before suing them. I'll always be negative about the NFB,
> though I am actually being neutral when talking about the actual lawsuit
> itself.
> >>
> >> Say what you want to, it won't change my mind. Even if it is someone
> from NFB saying it. Some NFB people are great. Some do incredibly good
> reviews. Some don't. And in whole, I think the organization just sucks for
> filing unnecessary lawsuits for nothing. Maybe I'm going on a childish
> tantrum here, perhaps. But once in a while, you need to. A company is trying
> to provide great accessibility for their products, and they are sued because
> of one problem. iTunes is actually still useful on the Windows side, people.
> Quit your darn nitpicking.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Nic
> >> Skype: Kvalme
> >> MSN Messenger: nico...

Re: new member

[Rob Lambert]

That's what I love about Apple. :)

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:30 AM, marie Howarth wrote:

> I know in my local store, there are two designated VO trainers and other
> staff constantly tell me they have played with VO on varying products. I
> think where there is a demand for it it will happen. Apple is extremely
> flexible. :)
>
> On 15 Apr 2010, at 11:27, Rob Lambert wrote:
>
> I agree. Only time will tell, of course. Who better to train people on
> their products than Apple themselves? I haven't used it, but I do like their
> one-to-one service, and my hope is they've set aside some staff that have
> been trained in VoiceOver for us. If not, they should.
>
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:24 AM, marie Howarth 
> wrote:
>
>> I think it all depends on the user and their attitude too. An individual
>> may hear about macs on a podcast or know of another user with a mac who is
>> also VI, and take themselves off to the Apple store. In manchester, I know
>> due to myself and a few other VI customers, most of the staff in the store
>> are highly familiar with voice over. As for training, I think its coming
>> from Apple in the near future.
>>
>> On 15 Apr 2010, at 10:54, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote:
>>
>>  I'd very much doubt it Rob.  I don't know what it's like in other
>> countries, but here in Ireland most of the trainers are actually sighted.
>> Macs haven't penetrated the mainstream userbase to the same extent as
>> windows-based Pcs.  Consequently the level of knowledge among the trainers
>> on the actual OS itself (not including VO) is virtually non existent.  The
>> fact that the trainers would have to go and learn an entirely new platform,
>> and then educate themselves in a new style of assistive technology makes it
>> pretty certain that the majority of blind users will be stuck with Jaws and
>> other badly implemented screenreaders for the foreseeable future.
>>
>> It's sad, but in my opinion true that this is the case.
>>
>> Dónal
>>
>>  --
>> *From:* macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:
>> macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Rob Lambert
>> *Sent:* 15 April 2010 10:47
>> *To:* macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> *Subject:* Re: new member
>>
>> Who here thinks we'll see the Mac replacing PCs in AT training offices?
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Joe Plummer  wrote:
>>
>>> For other A T you can run boot camp or virtual windows to use them.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sign,
>>> Joe Plummer ( JP )
>>> joeplum...@tds.net
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:46 PM
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: new member
>>>
>>> Hello Denise,
>>>
>>> I hope the word processor you are thinking of getting is iWork09, since
>>> MS
>>> Office for Mac is not accessible.
>>>
>>> As for Word documents of almost any level, TextEdit or Pages will read
>>> these
>>> just fine.
>>>
>>> I can't answer any of your other questions having never been a Windows
>>> user.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Anne
>>>
>>> On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:27 PM, denise avant wrote:
>>>
>>> > hello,
>>> > after having my iphone for six months now, i have really enjoyed my
>>> experience with apple. To that end, i am looking into purchasing a mac
>>> book
>>> pro. In fact, i called for some specs today and have set one with 4 gig
>>> of
>>> ram, and a 320 hard drive, 13 in screen. again this is just a possiblity.
>>> > i will also have the word processor included. i will also have the
>>> one-to-one training as there is a nearby apple store in chicago.
>>> > i am curious as to what those of you who own macs have done about your
>>> other windows based adatpive equipment, duxbury, openbook or k1000 and hw
>>> stream companion? how easy is it to move ms word 2003 2007 docs over to
>>> apple macs, still keep the formatting or move them back again?
>>> > I thought of just keeping my netbook or sony  machine for these
>>> purposes.
>>> there was also the idea given to me that i could have windows on one side
>>> and the mac on the other side. any thoughts on these questions would be
>>> apprciated.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
>>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
>>> .
>>> > For more options, visit this group at
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
>>> >
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
>>> .
>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>> http://groups.goog

Re: new member

[Ricardo Walker]

Hi,

I think it has to start with agencies for the blind and the educational system. 
 As an adult it's easy enough to just get up and go to an apple store, or have 
the money to pay for 1 on 1 training at said apple store.  But a 12 year old 
not so much.  I think younger people must be exposed to other options.  It 
doesn't even have anything to do with how great Apple is.  It's just creating a 
market where people can obtain access to the technology they need without 
selling their first born.  lol.  If anything, I think Apple has started to make 
makers of adaptive technology squirm a bit.  It becomes harder for them to 
justified the cost of their products.
On Apr 15, 2010, at 6:30 AM, marie Howarth wrote:

> I know in my local store, there are two designated VO trainers and other 
> staff constantly tell me they have played with VO on varying products. I 
> think where there is a demand for it it will happen. Apple is extremely 
> flexible. :)
> 
> On 15 Apr 2010, at 11:27, Rob Lambert wrote:
> 
>> I agree. Only time will tell, of course. Who better to train people on their 
>> products than Apple themselves? I haven't used it, but I do like their 
>> one-to-one service, and my hope is they've set aside some staff that have 
>> been trained in VoiceOver for us. If not, they should. 
>> 
>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:24 AM, marie Howarth  
>> wrote:
>> I think it all depends on the user and their attitude too. An individual may 
>> hear about macs on a podcast or know of another user with a mac who is also 
>> VI, and take themselves off to the Apple store. In manchester, I know due to 
>> myself and a few other VI customers, most of the staff in the store are 
>> highly familiar with voice over. As for training, I think its coming from 
>> Apple in the near future. 
>> 
>> On 15 Apr 2010, at 10:54, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote:
>> 
>>> I'd very much doubt it Rob.  I don't know what it's like in other 
>>> countries, but here in Ireland most of the trainers are actually  sighted.  
>>> Macs haven't penetrated the mainstream userbase to the same extent as 
>>> windows-based Pcs.  Consequently the level of knowledge among the trainers 
>>> on the actual OS itself (not including VO) is virtually non existent.  The 
>>> fact that the trainers would have to go and learn an entirely new platform, 
>>> and then educate themselves in a new style of assistive technology makes it 
>>> pretty certain that the majority of blind users will be stuck with Jaws and 
>>> other badly implemented screenreaders for the foreseeable future.
>>>  
>>> It's sad, but in my opinion true that this is the case.
>>>  
>>> Dónal
>>> 
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob Lambert
>>> Sent: 15 April 2010 10:47
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: new member
>>> 
>>> Who here thinks we'll see the Mac replacing PCs in AT training offices? 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Joe Plummer  wrote:
>>> For other A T you can run boot camp or virtual windows to use them.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sign,
>>> Joe Plummer ( JP )
>>> joeplum...@tds.net
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:46 PM
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: new member
>>> 
>>> Hello Denise,
>>> 
>>> I hope the word processor you are thinking of getting is iWork09, since MS
>>> Office for Mac is not accessible.
>>> 
>>> As for Word documents of almost any level, TextEdit or Pages will read these
>>> just fine.
>>> 
>>> I can't answer any of your other questions having never been a Windows user.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> Anne
>>> 
>>> On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:27 PM, denise avant wrote:
>>> 
>>> > hello,
>>> > after having my iphone for six months now, i have really enjoyed my
>>> experience with apple. To that end, i am looking into purchasing a mac book
>>> pro. In fact, i called for some specs today and have set one with 4 gig of
>>> ram, and a 320 hard drive, 13 in screen. again this is just a possiblity.
>>> > i will also have the word processor included. i will also have the
>>> one-to-one training as there is a nearby apple store in chicago.
>>> > i am curious as to what those of you who own macs have done about your
>>> other windows based adatpive equipment, duxbury, openbook or k1000 and hw
>>> stream companion? how easy is it to move ms word 2003 2007 docs over to
>>> apple macs, still keep the formatting or move them back again?
>>> > I thought of just keeping my netbook or sony  machine for these purposes.
>>> there was also the idea given to me that i could have windows on one side
>>> and the mac on the other side. any thoughts on these questions would be
>>> apprciated.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> > To post

Re: new member

[marie Howarth]

Without the support of the blind organisations, most school systems, at least 
here, wouldn't dream of venturing into something the blind organisation 
wouldn't support.

On 15 Apr 2010, at 11:43, Ricardo Walker wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I think it has to start with agencies for the blind and the educational 
> system.  As an adult it's easy enough to just get up and go to an apple 
> store, or have the money to pay for 1 on 1 training at said apple store.  But 
> a 12 year old not so much.  I think younger people must be exposed to other 
> options.  It doesn't even have anything to do with how great Apple is.  It's 
> just creating a market where people can obtain access to the technology they 
> need without selling their first born.  lol.  If anything, I think Apple has 
> started to make makers of adaptive technology squirm a bit.  It becomes 
> harder for them to justified the cost of their products.
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 6:30 AM, marie Howarth wrote:
> 
>> I know in my local store, there are two designated VO trainers and other 
>> staff constantly tell me they have played with VO on varying products. I 
>> think where there is a demand for it it will happen. Apple is extremely 
>> flexible. :)
>> 
>> On 15 Apr 2010, at 11:27, Rob Lambert wrote:
>> 
>>> I agree. Only time will tell, of course. Who better to train people on 
>>> their products than Apple themselves? I haven't used it, but I do like 
>>> their one-to-one service, and my hope is they've set aside some staff that 
>>> have been trained in VoiceOver for us. If not, they should. 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:24 AM, marie Howarth  
>>> wrote:
>>> I think it all depends on the user and their attitude too. An individual 
>>> may hear about macs on a podcast or know of another user with a mac who is 
>>> also VI, and take themselves off to the Apple store. In manchester, I know 
>>> due to myself and a few other VI customers, most of the staff in the store 
>>> are highly familiar with voice over. As for training, I think its coming 
>>> from Apple in the near future. 
>>> 
>>> On 15 Apr 2010, at 10:54, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote:
>>> 
 I'd very much doubt it Rob.  I don't know what it's like in other 
 countries, but here in Ireland most of the trainers are actually sighted.  
 Macs haven't penetrated the mainstream userbase to the same extent as 
 windows-based Pcs.  Consequently the level of knowledge among the trainers 
 on the actual OS itself (not including VO) is virtually non existent.  The 
 fact that the trainers would have to go and learn an entirely new 
 platform, and then educate themselves in a new style of assistive 
 technology makes it pretty certain that the majority of blind users will 
 be stuck with Jaws and other badly implemented screenreaders for the 
 foreseeable future.
  
 It's sad, but in my opinion true that this is the case.
  
 Dónal
 
 From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
 [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob  Lambert
 Sent: 15 April 2010 10:47
 To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
 Subject: Re: new member
 
 Who here thinks we'll see the Mac replacing PCs in AT training offices? 
 
 On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Joe Plummer  wrote:
 For other A T you can run boot camp or virtual windows to use them.
 
 
 
 Sign,
 Joe Plummer ( JP )
 joeplum...@tds.net
 
 -Original Message-
 From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
 [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
 Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:46 PM
 To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
 Subject: Re: new member
 
 Hello Denise,
 
 I hope the word processor you are thinking of getting is iWork09, since MS
 Office for Mac is not accessible.
 
 As for Word documents of almost any level, TextEdit or Pages will read 
 these
 just fine.
 
 I can't answer any of your other questions having never been a Windows 
 user.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Anne
 
 On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:27 PM, denise avant wrote:
 
 > hello,
 > after having my iphone for six months now, i have really enjoyed my
 experience with apple. To that end, i am looking into purchasing a mac book
 pro. In fact, i called for some specs today and have set one with 4 gig of
 ram, and a 320 hard drive, 13 in screen. again this is just a possiblity.
 > i will also have the word processor included. i will also have the
 one-to-one training as there is a nearby apple store in chicago.
 > i am curious as to what those of you who own macs have done about your
 other windows based adatpive equipment, duxbury, openbook or k1000 and hw
 stream companion? how easy is it to move ms word 2003 2007 docs over to
 apple macs, still keep the formatting or move them back again?
 > I thought of just keeping my netb

Re: new member

[Rob Lambert]

Very valid point, Ricardo. I agree whole heartedly.

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I think it has to start with agencies for the blind and the educational
> system.  As an adult it's easy enough to just get up and go to an apple
> store, or have the money to pay for 1 on 1 training at said apple store.
>  But a 12 year old not so much.  I think younger people must be exposed to
> other options.  It doesn't even have anything to do with how great Apple is.
>  It's just creating a market where people can obtain access to the
> technology they need without selling their first born.  lol.  If anything, I
> think Apple has started to make makers of adaptive technology squirm a bit.
>  It becomes harder for them to justified the cost of their products.
>
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 6:30 AM, marie Howarth wrote:
>
> I know in my local store, there are two designated VO trainers and other
> staff constantly tell me they have played with VO on varying products. I
> think where there is a demand for it it will happen. Apple is extremely
> flexible. :)
>
> On 15 Apr 2010, at 11:27, Rob Lambert wrote:
>
> I agree. Only time will tell, of course. Who better to train people on
> their products than Apple themselves? I haven't used it, but I do like their
> one-to-one service, and my hope is they've set aside some staff that have
> been trained in VoiceOver for us. If not, they should.
>
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:24 AM, marie Howarth 
> wrote:
>
>> I think it all depends on the user and their attitude too. An individual
>> may hear about macs on a podcast or know of another user with a mac who is
>> also VI, and take themselves off to the Apple store. In manchester, I know
>> due to myself and a few other VI customers, most of the staff in the store
>> are highly familiar with voice over. As for training, I think its coming
>> from Apple in the near future.
>>
>> On 15 Apr 2010, at 10:54, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote:
>>
>>  I'd very much doubt it Rob.  I don't know what it's like in other
>> countries, but here in Ireland most of the trainers are actually sighted.
>> Macs haven't penetrated the mainstream userbase to the same extent as
>> windows-based Pcs.  Consequently the level of knowledge among the trainers
>> on the actual OS itself (not including VO) is virtually non existent.  The
>> fact that the trainers would have to go and learn an entirely new platform,
>> and then educate themselves in a new style of assistive technology makes it
>> pretty certain that the majority of blind users will be stuck with Jaws and
>> other badly implemented screenreaders for the foreseeable future.
>>
>> It's sad, but in my opinion true that this is the case.
>>
>> Dónal
>>
>>  --
>> *From:* macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:
>> macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Rob Lambert
>> *Sent:* 15 April 2010 10:47
>> *To:* macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> *Subject:* Re: new member
>>
>> Who here thinks we'll see the Mac replacing PCs in AT training offices?
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Joe Plummer  wrote:
>>
>>> For other A T you can run boot camp or virtual windows to use them.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sign,
>>> Joe Plummer ( JP )
>>> joeplum...@tds.net
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:46 PM
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: new member
>>>
>>> Hello Denise,
>>>
>>> I hope the word processor you are thinking of getting is iWork09, since
>>> MS
>>> Office for Mac is not accessible.
>>>
>>> As for Word documents of almost any level, TextEdit or Pages will read
>>> these
>>> just fine.
>>>
>>> I can't answer any of your other questions having never been a Windows
>>> user.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Anne
>>>
>>> On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:27 PM, denise avant wrote:
>>>
>>> > hello,
>>> > after having my iphone for six months now, i have really enjoyed my
>>> experience with apple. To that end, i am looking into purchasing a mac
>>> book
>>> pro. In fact, i called for some specs today and have set one with 4 gig
>>> of
>>> ram, and a 320 hard drive, 13 in screen. again this is just a possiblity.
>>> > i will also have the word processor included. i will also have the
>>> one-to-one training as there is a nearby apple store in chicago.
>>> > i am curious as to what those of you who own macs have done about your
>>> other windows based adatpive equipment, duxbury, openbook or k1000 and hw
>>> stream companion? how easy is it to move ms word 2003 2007 docs over to
>>> apple macs, still keep the formatting or move them back again?
>>> > I thought of just keeping my netbook or sony  machine for these
>>> purposes.
>>> there was also the idea given to me that i could have windows on one side
>>> and the mac on the other side. any thoughts on these questions would be
>>> apprciated.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>

Re: new member

[marie Howarth]

I've just done a little scouting around. And I was wrong. RNIB actually have 
offered training days for agencies, people with a VI and parents of children 
who are have VI children. They also list the IPhone on their accessible phones 
list. I guess the information has not filtered across to their organisation who 
carries out the support.
So I guess they acknowledge the fact but don't shout about it. 

On 15 Apr 2010, at 11:46, Rob Lambert wrote:

> Very valid point, Ricardo. I agree whole heartedly. 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Ricardo Walker  wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I think it has to start with agencies for the blind and the educational 
> system.  As an adult it's easy enough to just get up and go to an apple 
> store, or have the money to pay for 1 on 1 training at said apple store.  But 
> a 12 year old not so much.  I think younger people must be exposed to other 
> options.  It doesn't even have anything to do with how great Apple is.  It's 
> just creating a market where people can obtain access to the technology they 
> need without selling their first born.  lol.  If anything, I think Apple has 
> started to make makers of adaptive technology squirm a bit.  It becomes 
> harder for them to justified the cost of their products.
> 
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 6:30 AM, marie Howarth wrote:
> 
>> I know in my local store, there are two designated VO trainers and other 
>> staff constantly tell me they have played with VO on varying products. I 
>> think where there is a demand for it it will happen. Apple is extremely 
>> flexible. :)
>> 
>> On 15 Apr 2010, at 11:27, Rob Lambert wrote:
>> 
>>> I agree. Only time will tell, of course. Who better to train people on 
>>> their products than Apple themselves? I haven't used it, but I do like 
>>> their one-to-one service, and my hope is they've set aside some staff that 
>>> have been trained in VoiceOver for us. If not, they should. 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:24 AM, marie Howarth  
>>> wrote:
>>> I think it all depends on the user and their attitude too. An individual 
>>> may hear about macs on a podcast or know of another user with a mac who is 
>>> also VI, and take themselves off to the Apple store. In manchester, I know 
>>> due to myself and a few other VI customers, most of the staff in the store 
>>> are highly familiar with voice over. As for training, I think its coming 
>>> from Apple in the near future. 
>>> 
>>> On 15 Apr 2010, at 10:54, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote:
>>> 
 I'd very much doubt it Rob.  I don't know what it's like in other 
 countries, but here in Ireland most of the trainers are actually sighted.  
 Macs haven't penetrated the mainstream userbase to the same extent as 
 windows-based Pcs.  Consequently the level of knowledge among the trainers 
 on the actual OS itself (not including VO) is virtually non existent.  The 
 fact that the trainers would have to go and learn an entirely new 
 platform, and then educate themselves in a new style of assistive 
 technology makes it pretty certain that the majority of blind users will 
 be stuck with Jaws and other badly implemented screenreaders for the 
 foreseeable future.
  
 It's sad, but in my opinion true that this is the case.
  
 Dónal
 
 From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
 [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob Lambert
 Sent: 15 April 2010 10:47
 To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
 Subject: Re: new member
 
 Who here thinks we'll see the Mac replacing PCs in AT training offices? 
 
 On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Joe Plummer  wrote:
 For other A T you can run boot camp or virtual windows to use them.
 
 
 
 Sign,
 Joe Plummer ( JP )
 joeplum...@tds.net
 
 -Original Message-
 From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
 [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
 Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:46 PM
 To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
 Subject: Re: new member
 
 Hello Denise,
 
 I hope the word processor you are thinking of getting is iWork09, since MS
 Office for Mac is not accessible.
 
 As for Word documents of almost any level, TextEdit or Pages will read 
 these
 just fine.
 
 I can't answer any of your other questions having never been a Windows 
 user.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Anne
 
 On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:27 PM, denise avant wrote:
 
 > hello,
 > after having my iphone for six months now, i have really enjoyed my
 experience with apple. To that end, i am looking into purchasing a mac book
 pro. In fact, i called for some specs today and have set one with 4 gig of
 ram, and a 320 hard drive, 13 in screen. again this is just a possiblity.
 > i will also have the word processor included. i will also have the
 one-to-one training as there is a nearby apple store in 

RE: new member

[Dónal Fitzpatrick]

Very interesting that RNIB are offering those training days.  I don't think
the NCBI (Irish equivalent) do.  Referring back to a previous note on this
thread, you're quite correct that the guys at the Applestore in Manchester
are superb.  I'm over there rather a lot for religious (sorry soccer!)
reasons and I pop in there pretty much every trip to play with the toys and
look at the accessories I shouldn't buy but would love to have.  On each
occasion I've encountered people who knew the assistive products on macs and
iPhones.  Ah, wouldn't it be nice to have a local Apple store 
 
Cheers
 
Dónal

  _  

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of marie Howarth
Sent: 15 April 2010 12:03
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: new member


I've just done a little scouting around. And I was wrong. RNIB actually have
offered training days for agencies, people with a VI and parents of children
who are have VI children. They also list the IPhone on their accessible
phones list. I guess the information has not filtered across to their
organisation who carries out the support. 
So I guess they acknowledge the fact but don't shout about it. 

On 15 Apr 2010, at 11:46, Rob Lambert wrote:


Very valid point, Ricardo. I agree whole heartedly. 


On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Ricardo Walker 
wrote:


Hi, 

I think it has to start with agencies for the blind and the educational
system.  As an adult it's easy enough to just get up and go to an apple
store, or have the money to pay for 1 on 1 training at said apple store.
But a 12 year old not so much.  I think younger people must be exposed to
other options.  It doesn't even have anything to do with how great Apple is.
It's just creating a market where people can obtain access to the technology
they need without selling their first born.  lol.  If anything, I think
Apple has started to make makers of adaptive technology squirm a bit.  It
becomes harder for them to justified the cost of their products. 

On Apr 15, 2010, at 6:30 AM, marie Howarth wrote:


I know in my local store, there are two designated VO trainers and other
staff constantly tell me they have played with VO on varying products. I
think where there is a demand for it it will happen. Apple is extremely
flexible. :) 

On 15 Apr 2010, at 11:27, Rob Lambert wrote:


I agree. Only time will tell, of course. Who better to train people on their
products than Apple themselves? I haven't used it, but I do like their
one-to-one service, and my hope is they've set aside some staff that have
been trained in VoiceOver for us. If not, they should. 


On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:24 AM, marie Howarth 
wrote:


I think it all depends on the user and their attitude too. An individual may
hear about macs on a podcast or know of another user with a mac who is also
VI, and take themselves off to the Apple store. In manchester, I know due to
myself and a few other VI customers, most of the staff in the store are
highly familiar with voice over. As for training, I think its coming from
Apple in the near future.  

On 15 Apr 2010, at 10:54, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote:


I'd very much doubt it Rob.  I don't know what it's like in other countries,
but here in Ireland most of the trainers are actually sighted.  Macs haven't
penetrated the mainstream userbase to the same extent as windows-based Pcs.
Consequently the level of knowledge among the trainers on the actual OS
itself (not including VO) is virtually non existent.  The fact that the
trainers would have to go and learn an entirely new platform, and then
educate themselves in a new style of assistive technology makes it pretty
certain that the majority of blind users will be stuck with Jaws and other
badly implemented screenreaders for the foreseeable future.
 
It's sad, but in my opinion true that this is the case.
 
Dónal

  _  

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob Lambert
Sent: 15 April 2010 10:47
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: new member


Who here thinks we'll see the Mac replacing PCs in AT training offices? 


On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Joe Plummer  wrote:


For other A T you can run boot camp or virtual windows to use them.



Sign,
Joe Plummer ( JP )
joeplum...@tds.net


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:46 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: new member

Hello Denise,

I hope the word processor you are thinking of getting is iWork09, since MS
Office for Mac is not accessible.

As for Word documents of almost any level, TextEdit or Pages will read these
just fine.

I can't answer any of your other questions having never been a Windows user.

Cheers,

Anne

On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:27 PM, denise avant wrote:

> hello,
> after having my iphone for six months now, i have really

Re: new member

[marie Howarth]

They are my local apple store and I love the guys in there! Just last Monday I 
popped into play with a mac. I'm planning on getting a new macbook later this 
year and was playing with the track pad in the store. Always so helpful and 
friendly. :)

On 15 Apr 2010, at 12:12, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote:

> Very interesting that RNIB are offering those training days.  I don't think 
> the NCBI (Irish equivalent) do.  Referring back to a previous note on this 
> thread, you're quite correct that the guys at the Applestore in Manchester 
> are superb.  I'm over there rather a lot for religious (sorry soccer!) 
> reasons and I pop in there pretty much every trip to play with the toys and 
> look at the accessories I shouldn't buy but would love to have.  On each 
> occasion I've encountered people who knew the assistive products on macs and 
> iPhones.  Ah, wouldn't it be nice to have a local Apple store 
>  
> Cheers
>  
> Dónal
> 
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of marie Howarth
> Sent: 15 April 2010 12:03
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: new member
> 
> I've just done a little scouting around. And I was wrong. RNIB actually have 
> offered training days for agencies, people with a VI and parents of children 
> who are have VI children. They also list the IPhone on their accessible 
> phones list. I guess the information has not filtered across to their 
> organisation who carries out the support.
> So I guess they acknowledge the fact but don't shout about it. 
> 
> On 15 Apr 2010, at 11:46, Rob Lambert wrote:
> 
>> Very valid point, Ricardo. I agree whole heartedly. 
>> 
>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Ricardo Walker  wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I think it has to start with agencies for the blind and the educational 
>> system.  As an adult it's easy enough to just get up and go to an apple 
>> store, or have the money to pay for 1 on 1 training at said apple store.  
>> But a 12 year old not so much.  I think younger people must be exposed to 
>> other options.  It doesn't even have anything to do with how great Apple is. 
>>  It's just creating a market where people can obtain access to the 
>> technology they need without selling their first born.  lol.  If anything, I 
>> think Apple has started to make makers of adaptive technology squirm a bit.  
>> It becomes harder for them to justified the cost of their products.
>> 
>> On Apr 15, 2010, at 6:30 AM, marie Howarth wrote:
>> 
>>> I know in my local store, there are two designated VO trainers and other 
>>> staff constantly tell me they have played with VO on varying products. I 
>>> think where there is a demand for it it will happen. Apple is extremely 
>>> flexible. :)
>>> 
>>> On 15 Apr 2010, at 11:27, Rob Lambert wrote:
>>> 
 I agree. Only time will tell, of course. Who better to train people on 
 their products than Apple themselves? I haven't used it, but I do like 
 their one-to-one service, and my hope is they've set aside some staff that 
 have been trained in VoiceOver for us. If not, they should. 
 
 On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:24 AM, marie Howarth  
 wrote:
 I think it all depends on the user and their attitude too. An individual 
 may hear about macs on a podcast or know of another user with a mac who is 
 also VI, and take themselves off to the Apple store. In manchester, I know 
 due to myself and a few other VI customers, most of the staff in the store 
 are highly familiar with voice over. As for training, I think its coming 
 from Apple in the near future. 
 
 On 15 Apr 2010, at 10:54, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote:
 
> I'd very much doubt it Rob.  I don't know what it's like in other 
> countries, but here in Ireland most of the trainers are actually sighted. 
>  Macs haven't penetrated the mainstream userbase to the same extent as 
> windows-based Pcs.  Consequently the level of knowledge among the 
> trainers on the actual OS itself (not including VO) is virtually non 
> existent.  The fact that the trainers would have to go and learn an 
> entirely new platform, and then educate themselves in a new style of 
> assistive technology makes it pretty certain that the majority of blind 
> users will be stuck with Jaws and other badly implemented screenreaders 
> for the foreseeable future.
>  
> It's sad, but in my opinion true that this is the case.
>  
> Dónal
> 
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of  Rob 
> Lambert
> Sent: 15 April 2010 10:47
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: new member
> 
> Who here thinks we'll see the Mac replacing PCs in AT training offices? 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Joe Plummer  wrote:
> For other A T you can run boot camp or virtual windows to use them.
> 
> 
>

Non-US people buying a Mac in the US: Warning.

[Dónal Fitzpatrick]

Hi all,

I intended to post this months ago and forgot.  On a trip to the States back
in January I decided to take advantage of the excellent exchange rate and
buy a 13" MBP.  I saved a fortune I assure you.

However, on returning home I discovered something I wasn't previously aware
of.  The wireless card in the US models is actually configured differently
from those sold in Europe.  The reason is this.  FCC regulations in the
States means that wireless routers only broadcast on channels 1-11.  In
Europe, we can broadcast on channels 1-13.  So, wireless cards on Mac
machines purchased in the US are only set up to operate on channels 1-11.
All of my routers were configured to broadcast on channel 13, so my nice
shiny new machine purchased in the US didn't see any of my routers.

It was a very simple fix to adjust the channels downwards, and all is now
fine.  However if you go to, say a public WIFI area, or are using your
machine on a network where you can't control the channel on which the
wireless signal is broadcast, it might, just might, be a problem for you to
purchase your machine in the US.  As an aside, for anyone travelling to
Europe (or Japan) with a US machine, if you can't pick up a wireless signal
that others can, this could be a reason.

This may, and probably will, affect only a few people but I pass it on for
what it's worth.

Cheers

Dónal

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Re: Non-US people buying a Mac in the US: Warning.

[marie Howarth]

That's interesting. When my mac came to the US with me, I had no issues of 
this. my mac was set up on my friend's network in her home. Hmm, very 
interesting.

On 15 Apr 2010, at 12:20, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> I intended to post this months ago and forgot.  On a trip to the States back
> in January I decided to take advantage of the excellent exchange rate and
> buy a 13" MBP.  I saved a fortune I assure you.
> 
> However, on returning home I discovered something I wasn't previously aware
> of.  The wireless card in the US models is actually configured differently
> from those sold in Europe.  The reason is this.  FCC regulations in the
> States means that wireless routers only broadcast on channels 1-11.  In
> Europe, we can broadcast on channels 1-13.  So, wireless cards on Mac
> machines purchased in the US are only set up to operate on channels 1-11.
> All of my routers were configured to broadcast on channel 13, so my nice
> shiny new machine purchased in the US didn't see any of my routers.
> 
> It was a very simple fix to adjust the channels downwards, and all is now
> fine.  However if you go to, say a public WIFI area, or are using your
> machine on a network where you can't control the channel on which the
> wireless signal is broadcast, it might, just might, be a problem for you to
> purchase your machine in the US.  As an aside, for anyone travelling to
> Europe (or Japan) with a US machine, if you can't pick up a wireless signal
> that others can, this could be a reason.
> 
> This may, and probably will, affect only a few people but I pass it on for
> what it's worth.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dónal
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at 
> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
> 

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Re: What do you think?

[Kaare Dehard]

here's my take on it. 1) who cares, and 2 they started their accessibility 
solution with tiger, and that came out in 2004 if memory serves correctly. That 
would put their term ending 2007. snowy came out last august 2009 with a shiny 
new improvement in voiceover 3 and the potential three year term is done with.

Sometimes it takes an unpleasantry like a law suite to push someone in to 
action, but with the advent of speaking ipods, iphones, as well as computers, I 
think that they are self-propelled and continuing to move in the right 
direction.
On 2010-04-15, at 2:08 AM, Rob Lambert wrote:

> I just got wind, from a friend of mine, that the only reason Apple is 
> accessible to us is because of a lawsuit by the NFB. The term of the 
> agreement was for accessibility improvements for three years. Here's a 
> question. First, what's your side of this ordeal? Second, who thinks Apple 
> will keep up with the accessibility improvements after this three year term 
> is up? I apologize for making smooth waters mirky, I just wanted to know what 
> your take on this was. 
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
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> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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RE: Non-US people buying a Mac in the US: Warning.

[Dónal Fitzpatrick]

Hi Marie,

It's not a problem going from Europe to the US, the problem occurs when
travelling the other way.  The reason is that the range of channels which,
by law, we're allowed to broadcast on is greater in Europe.  So for example,
if you have a router broadcasting on channel 13, a US Mac with a US wireless
card would not pick it up because it is only configured (again by law) to
receive channels 1-11. 

For the hackers among you, there is a fix involving the creation of a
bootable usb-based Linux distro, booting your Mac using this, and using
various tools to rewrite the PROM on the wireless card.  All seemed like too
much work to me to be honest so I just changed the configuration on my
router 

Cheers

Dónal

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of marie Howarth
Sent: 15 April 2010 12:28
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Non-US people buying a Mac in the US: Warning.

That's interesting. When my mac came to the US with me, I had no issues of
this. my mac was set up on my friend's network in her home. Hmm, very
interesting.

On 15 Apr 2010, at 12:20, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> I intended to post this months ago and forgot.  On a trip to the 
> States back in January I decided to take advantage of the excellent 
> exchange rate and buy a 13" MBP.  I saved a fortune I assure you.
> 
> However, on returning home I discovered something I wasn't previously 
> aware of.  The wireless card in the US models is actually configured 
> differently from those sold in Europe.  The reason is this.  FCC 
> regulations in the States means that wireless routers only broadcast 
> on channels 1-11.  In Europe, we can broadcast on channels 1-13.  So, 
> wireless cards on Mac machines purchased in the US are only set up to
operate on channels 1-11.
> All of my routers were configured to broadcast on channel 13, so my 
> nice shiny new machine purchased in the US didn't see any of my routers.
> 
> It was a very simple fix to adjust the channels downwards, and all is 
> now fine.  However if you go to, say a public WIFI area, or are using 
> your machine on a network where you can't control the channel on which 
> the wireless signal is broadcast, it might, just might, be a problem 
> for you to purchase your machine in the US.  As an aside, for anyone 
> travelling to Europe (or Japan) with a US machine, if you can't pick 
> up a wireless signal that others can, this could be a reason.
> 
> This may, and probably will, affect only a few people but I pass it on 
> for what it's worth.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dónal
> 
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Re: What do you think?

[Kaare Dehard]

Rob, we like worms. because of the shift in availability of screen readers, and 
a lot of them coming at no charge in the apple product line, this sort of thing 
comes up more often than would be liked. Some of the people that would like to 
keep their special status feel it necessary to make the waters mirky. We really 
don't mind providing our thoughts and perspectives on these sort of things.
On 2010-04-15, at 3:31 AM, Rob Lambert wrote:

> I apologize if I opened a can of worms.
> 
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 12:30 AM, Anne Robertson  wrote:
> Hello Nic,
> 
> Thank you for this post. You've just saved me from going on a major rant 
> along the same lines.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Anne
> 
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> > I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been around for 
> > six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to do with it. Apple is 
> > going to keep it up because they are committed. The article about the 
> > lawsuit doesn't actually mention Apple much.
> >
> > There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a threat to the 
> > NFB of taking over the technical market. This is why NFB did not sue Skype, 
> > but Apple. Agreement or not, I'm pretty sure they listened to users using 
> > Outspoken and such, rather than an organization that can't even review the 
> > product properly when it is out. Apple has done far more than anyone for 
> > accessibility improvements. Apple said they had something in store, and 
> > they sure did. I of course realize that it is a pretty serious statement. 
> > Of course, I am not particularly a fan of the NFB at all. Saying that, NFB 
> > has made some seriously inaccurate statements as well, far outweighing 
> > mine. NFB actually has no reason to sue Apple. What would they sue them 
> > for, exactly? Because their products are accessible, and they want everyone 
> > to pay more than what a Macbook costs for assistive technology? That 
> > wouldn't actually surprise me much. It's all about competition. If they 
> > think they're about to be kicked out, of course they would consider Apple a 
> > threat. Because Apple has done something Microsoft has not. All these 
> > things sound really twisted and disgusting to me.
> >
> > Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to do with 
> > iTunes on the Windows side. Fair enough, but that is a pretty ridiculous 
> > suit if it really is based on accessibility. That is not the case, however, 
> > as there are plenty of other useful programs for PCs that are not anywhere 
> > near as accessible as iTunes 9. And NFB doesn't care about that. Which, 
> > again, leads me to believe that, because NFB is scared of being kicked out, 
> > they do everything they can to stop people buying their product. That would 
> > make sense.
> >
> > Windows users rely on scripts all the time to use any application. I 
> > suggest you look through your jAWS folder to see what I mean. Have you even 
> > seen just the download size of a JAWS installation? It's outrageous. People 
> > who moan about iTunes not being accessible just because the interface 
> > accidentally broke, just need to use scripts like they do for everything 
> > else. I'm surprised that wasn't their first complaint. JAWS, or just 
> > Windows in general, isn't even that stable. If JAWS crashes, it's stupidly 
> > difficult most of the time to reload the product. Even if you manage to do 
> > so, you will probably run into the screen not being read correctly when 
> > reading list boxes or with the cursor. Or, the worst-case scenario. You 
> > have to uninstall JAWS 11 after attempting to install Video Intercept, 
> > reinstall JAWS 10, install VIdeo Intercept, uninstall JAWS 10 then 
> > reinstall JAWS 11.
> >
> > Maybe I'm slamming the NFB a bit, but really, they need a kick in the ass. 
> > I'm just happy the Danish blindness organizations are not this corrupt and 
> > twisted, and they actually review fairly and take a proper look at what a 
> > company offers before suing them. I'll always be negative about the NFB, 
> > though I am actually being neutral when talking about the actual lawsuit 
> > itself.
> >
> > Say what you want to, it won't change my mind. Even if it is someone from 
> > NFB saying it. Some NFB people are great. Some do incredibly good reviews. 
> > Some don't. And in whole, I think the organization just sucks for filing 
> > unnecessary lawsuits for nothing. Maybe I'm going on a childish tantrum 
> > here, perhaps. But once in a while, you need to. A company is trying to 
> > provide great accessibility for their products, and they are sued because 
> > of one problem. iTunes is actually still useful on the Windows side, 
> > people. Quit your darn nitpicking.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Nic
> > Skype: Kvalme
> > MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
> > AIM: cincinster
> > yahoo Messenger: cin368
> > Facebook Profile
> > My Twitter
> >
> > On Apr 15, 2010, a

Re: What do you think?

[Kaare Dehard]

I'll just become ultra-synical here and say they love it when it doesn't 
interfear with there long standing computer related screen reader interests, 
but have been known in ast to praise something like the iphone for it's 
independant operating-system based speech while saying it's a bad thing to do 
on a computer. 

On 2010-04-15, at 4:22 AM, James & Nash wrote:

> Although i've already posted on this, I just wanted to add that despite the 
> criticism that has been levelled at NFB - and rightly, they have commended 
> Apple's commitment to accesibility on the IPad.
> TC
> James, Lyn, Nash & Twinny
> On 15 Apr 2010, at 09:16, Rob wrote:
> 
>> Thank you for your input, Nic. Much appreciated. :)
>> 
>> Sent from my iPod
>> 
>> On Apr 15, 2010, at 1:12 AM, Charlie Doremus  wrote:
>> 
>>> I would also like to thank you, Nic, for saving my bacon. Like Anne I was 
>>> going to take issue with NFB and others who love to gripe for the sake of 
>>> griping. You saved me from being called tactless twice in the same week. 
>>> Even though I don't use Jaws the idea of uninstall, install, uninstall, 
>>> install, no matter what program, gives me the creeps.
>>> 
>>> Sent from the iPad I wish I had
>>> 
>>> On Apr 14, 2010, at 9:30 PM, Anne Robertson  wrote:
>>> 
 Hello Nic,
 
 Thank you for this post. You've just saved me from going on a major rant 
 along the same lines.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Anne
 
 On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:
 
> Hi,
> 
> I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been around 
> for six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to do with it. 
> Apple is going to keep it up because they are committed. The article 
> about the lawsuit doesn't actually mention Apple much.
> 
> There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a threat to the 
> NFB of taking over the technical market. This is why NFB did not sue 
> Skype, but Apple. Agreement or not, I'm pretty sure they listened to 
> users using Outspoken and such, rather than an organization that can't 
> even review the product properly when it is out. Apple has done far more 
> than anyone for accessibility improvements. Apple said they had something 
> in store, and they sure did. I of course realize that it is a pretty 
> serious statement. Of course, I am not particularly a fan of the NFB at 
> all. Saying that, NFB has made some seriously inaccurate statements as 
> well, far outweighing mine. NFB actually has no reason to sue Apple. What 
> would they sue them for, exactly? Because their products are accessible, 
> and they want everyone to pay more than what a Macbook costs for 
> assistive technology? That wouldn't actually surprise me much. It's all 
> about competition. If they think they're about to be kicked out, of 
> course they would consider Apple a threat. Because Apple has done 
> something Microsoft has not. All these things sound really twisted and 
> disgusting to me.
> 
> Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to do with 
> iTunes on the Windows side. Fair enough, but that is a pretty ridiculous 
> suit if it really is based on accessibility. That is not the case, 
> however, as there are plenty of other useful programs for PCs that are 
> not anywhere near as accessible as iTunes 9. And NFB doesn't care about 
> that. Which, again, leads me to believe that, because NFB is scared of 
> being kicked out, they do everything they can to stop people buying their 
> product. That would make sense.
> 
> Windows users rely on scripts all the time to use any application. I 
> suggest you look through your jAWS folder to see what I mean. Have you 
> even seen just the download size of a JAWS installation? It's outrageous. 
> People who moan about iTunes not being accessible just because the 
> interface accidentally broke, just need to use scripts like they do for 
> everything else. I'm surprised that wasn't their first complaint. JAWS, 
> or just Windows in general, isn't even that stable. If JAWS crashes, it's 
> stupidly difficult most of the time to reload the product. Even if you 
> manage to do so, you will probably run into the screen not being read 
> correctly when reading list boxes or with the cursor. Or, the worst-case 
> scenario. You have to uninstall JAWS 11 after attempting to install Video 
> Intercept, reinstall JAWS 10, install VIdeo Intercept, uninstall JAWS 10 
> then reinstall JAWS 11.
> 
> Maybe I'm slamming the NFB a bit, but really, they need a kick in the 
> ass. I'm just happy the Danish blindness organizations are not this 
> corrupt and twisted, and they actually review fairly and take a proper 
> look at what a company offers before suing them. I'll always be negative 
> about the NF

Re: new member

[Kaare Dehard]

I don't know, most work environments are anal regarding what they want in the 
offices, I see apple taking a larger share, but the twirps who use windows 
especially for dhcp serving love their products with the ferver that they claim 
we do; and will contue to worship at the wishing well of willy. 
On 2010-04-15, at 5:46 AM, Rob Lambert wrote:

> Who here thinks we'll see the Mac replacing PCs in AT training offices? 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Joe Plummer  wrote:
> For other A T you can run boot camp or virtual windows to use them.
> 
> 
> 
> Sign,
> Joe Plummer ( JP )
> joeplum...@tds.net
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:46 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: new member
> 
> Hello Denise,
> 
> I hope the word processor you are thinking of getting is iWork09, since MS
> Office for Mac is not accessible.
> 
> As for Word documents of almost any level, TextEdit or Pages will read these
> just fine.
> 
> I can't answer any of your other questions having never been a Windows user.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Anne
> 
> On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:27 PM, denise avant wrote:
> 
> > hello,
> > after having my iphone for six months now, i have really enjoyed my
> experience with apple. To that end, i am looking into purchasing a mac book
> pro. In fact, i called for some specs today and have set one with 4 gig of
> ram, and a 320 hard drive, 13 in screen. again this is just a possiblity.
> > i will also have the word processor included. i will also have the
> one-to-one training as there is a nearby apple store in chicago.
> > i am curious as to what those of you who own macs have done about your
> other windows based adatpive equipment, duxbury, openbook or k1000 and hw
> stream companion? how easy is it to move ms word 2003 2007 docs over to
> apple macs, still keep the formatting or move them back again?
> > I thought of just keeping my netbook or sony  machine for these purposes.
> there was also the idea given to me that i could have windows on one side
> and the mac on the other side. any thoughts on these questions would be
> apprciated.
> >
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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> >
> 
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> 
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Re: new member

[Kaare Dehard]

In my case 8t was like Marie said, I heard about it in a podcast, and was just 
starting to shop for new equip. Right time righyt place, and access to fly one 
for an hour to see were the tipping points.

On 2010-04-15, at 6:24 AM, marie Howarth wrote:

> I think it all depends on the user and their attitude too. An individual may 
> hear about macs on a podcast or know of another user with a mac who is also 
> VI, and take themselves off to the Apple store. In manchester, I know due to 
> myself and a few other VI customers, most of the staff in the store are 
> highly familiar with voice over. As for training, I think its coming from 
> Apple in the near future. 
> 
> On 15 Apr 2010, at 10:54, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote:
> 
>> I'd very much doubt it Rob.  I don't know what it's like in other countries, 
>> but here in Ireland most of the trainers are actually sighted.  Macs haven't 
>> penetrated the mainstream userbase to the same extent as windows-based Pcs.  
>> Consequently the level of knowledge among the trainers on the actual OS 
>> itself (not including VO) is virtually non existent.  The fact that the 
>> trainers would have to go and learn an entirely new platform, and then 
>> educate themselves in a new style of assistive technology makes it pretty 
>> certain that the majority of blind users will be stuck with Jaws and other 
>> badly implemented screenreaders for the foreseeable future.
>>  
>> It's sad, but in my opinion true that this is the case.
>>  
>> Dónal
>> 
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob Lambert
>> Sent: 15 April 2010 10:47
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: new member
>> 
>> Who here thinks we'll see the Mac replacing PCs in AT training offices? 
>> 
>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Joe Plummer  wrote:
>> For other A T you can run boot camp or virtual windows to use them.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sign,
>> Joe Plummer ( JP )
>> joeplum...@tds.net
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:46 PM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: new member
>> 
>> Hello Denise,
>> 
>> I hope the word processor you are thinking of getting is iWork09, since MS
>> Office for Mac is not accessible.
>> 
>> As for Word documents of almost any level, TextEdit or Pages will read these
>> just fine.
>> 
>> I can't answer any of your other questions having never been a Windows user.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Anne
>> 
>> On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:27 PM, denise avant wrote:
>> 
>> > hello,
>> > after having my iphone for six months now, i have really enjoyed my
>> experience with apple. To that end, i am looking into purchasing a mac book
>> pro. In fact, i called for some specs today and have set one with 4 gig of
>> ram, and a 320 hard drive, 13 in screen. again this is just a possiblity.
>> > i will also have the word processor included. i will also have the
>> one-to-one training as there is a nearby apple store in chicago.
>> > i am curious as to what those of you who own macs have done about your
>> other windows based adatpive equipment, duxbury, openbook or k1000 and hw
>> stream companion? how easy is it to move ms word 2003 2007 docs over to
>> apple macs, still keep the formatting or move them back again?
>> > I thought of just keeping my netbook or sony  machine for these purposes.
>> there was also the idea given to me that i could have windows on one side
>> and the mac on the other side. any thoughts on these questions would be
>> apprciated.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> > For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
>> >
>> 
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Re: new member

[olivia norman]

Good news! I am so glad that people are waking up to apple!
Olivia
On Apr 15, 2010, at 7:02 AM, marie Howarth wrote:

> I've just done a little scouting around. And I was wrong. RNIB actually have 
> offered training days for agencies, people with a VI and parents of children 
> who are have VI children. They also list the IPhone on their accessible 
> phones list. I guess the information has not filtered across to their 
> organisation who carries out the support.
> So I guess they acknowledge the fact but don't shout about it. 
> 
> On 15 Apr 2010, at 11:46, Rob Lambert wrote:
> 
>> Very valid point, Ricardo. I agree whole heartedly. 
>> 
>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Ricardo Walker  wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I think it has to start with agencies for the blind and the educational 
>> system.  As an adult it's easy enough to just get up and go to an apple 
>> store, or have the money to pay for 1 on 1 training at said apple store.  
>> But a 12 year old not so much.  I think younger people must be exposed to 
>> other options.  It doesn't even have anything to do with how great Apple is. 
>>  It's just creating a market where people can obtain access to the 
>> technology they need without selling their first born.  lol.  If anything, I 
>> think Apple has started to make makers of adaptive technology squirm a bit.  
>> It becomes harder for them to justified the cost of their products.
>> 
>> On Apr 15, 2010, at 6:30 AM, marie Howarth wrote:
>> 
>>> I know in my local store, there are two designated VO trainers and other 
>>> staff constantly tell me they have played with VO on varying products. I 
>>> think where there is a demand for it it will happen. Apple is extremely 
>>> flexible. :)
>>> 
>>> On 15 Apr 2010, at 11:27, Rob Lambert wrote:
>>> 
 I agree. Only time will tell, of course. Who better to train people on 
 their products than Apple themselves? I haven't used it, but I do like 
 their one-to-one service, and my hope is they've set aside some staff that 
 have been trained in VoiceOver for us. If not, they should. 
 
 On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:24 AM, marie Howarth  
 wrote:
 I think it all depends on the user and their attitude too. An individual 
 may hear about macs on a podcast or know of another user with a mac who is 
 also VI, and take themselves off to the Apple store. In manchester, I know 
 due to myself and a few other VI customers, most of the staff in the store 
 are highly familiar with voice over. As for training, I think its coming 
 from Apple in the near future. 
 
 On 15 Apr 2010, at 10:54, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote:
 
> I'd very much doubt it Rob.  I don't know what it's like in other 
> countries, but here in Ireland most of the trainers are actually sighted. 
>  Macs haven't penetrated the mainstream userbase to the same extent as 
> windows-based Pcs.  Consequently the level of knowledge among the 
> trainers on the actual OS itself (not including VO) is virtually non 
> existent.  The fact that the trainers would have to go and learn an 
> entirely new platform, and then educate themselves in a new style of 
> assistive technology makes it pretty certain that the majority of blind 
> users will be stuck with Jaws and other badly implemented screenreaders 
> for the foreseeable future.
>  
> It's sad, but in my opinion true that this is the case.
>  
> Dónal
> 
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob Lambert
> Sent: 15 April 2010 10:47
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: new member
> 
> Who here thinks we'll see the Mac replacing PCs in AT training offices? 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Joe Plummer  wrote:
> For other A T you can run boot camp or virtual windows to use them.
> 
> 
> 
> Sign,
> Joe Plummer ( JP )
> joeplum...@tds.net
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:46 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: new member
> 
> Hello Denise,
> 
> I hope the word processor you are thinking of getting is iWork09, since MS
> Office for Mac is not accessible.
> 
> As for Word documents of almost any level, TextEdit or Pages will read 
> these
> just fine.
> 
> I can't answer any of your other questions having never been a Windows 
> user.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Anne
> 
> On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:27 PM, denise avant wrote:
> 
> > hello,
> > after having my iphone for six months now, i have really enjoyed my
> experience with apple. To that end, i am looking into purchasing a mac 
> book
> pro. In fact, i called for some specs today a

Re: Non-US people buying a Mac in the US: Warning.

[olivia norman]

Thanks for this information!
I may be taing a trip to London, so this is great to know! I continue to be 
impressed with all the global support out there for voiceover, and the 
increasing number of VO users world wide! This is great!
Olivia
On Apr 15, 2010, at 7:20 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> I intended to post this months ago and forgot.  On a trip to the States back
> in January I decided to take advantage of the excellent exchange rate and
> buy a 13" MBP.  I saved a fortune I assure you.
> 
> However, on returning home I discovered something I wasn't previously aware
> of.  The wireless card in the US models is actually configured differently
> from those sold in Europe.  The reason is this.  FCC regulations in the
> States means that wireless routers only broadcast on channels 1-11.  In
> Europe, we can broadcast on channels 1-13.  So, wireless cards on Mac
> machines purchased in the US are only set up to operate on channels 1-11.
> All of my routers were configured to broadcast on channel 13, so my nice
> shiny new machine purchased in the US didn't see any of my routers.
> 
> It was a very simple fix to adjust the channels downwards, and all is now
> fine.  However if you go to, say a public WIFI area, or are using your
> machine on a network where you can't control the channel on which the
> wireless signal is broadcast, it might, just might, be a problem for you to
> purchase your machine in the US.  As an aside, for anyone travelling to
> Europe (or Japan) with a US machine, if you can't pick up a wireless signal
> that others can, this could be a reason.
> 
> This may, and probably will, affect only a few people but I pass it on for
> what it's worth.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dónal
> 
> -- 
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Re: new member

[olivia norman]

That's one of the things I love about apple. My hero, Steve Jobs, once said, 
"innovation distinguishes between a leader and a follower" and he is correct. 
Interesting that you have two dedicated VO trainers in your apple store in the 
UK.  No one at my local store here in the US is a dedicated VO trainer, though 
several staff have played with the product that I've come across.
Olivia
On Apr 15, 2010, at 6:31 AM, Rob Lambert wrote:

> That's what I love about Apple. :)
> 
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:30 AM, marie Howarth  
> wrote:
> I know in my local store, there are two designated VO trainers and other 
> staff constantly tell me they have played with VO on varying products. I 
> think where there is a demand for it it will happen. Apple is extremely 
> flexible. :)
> 
> On 15 Apr 2010, at 11:27, Rob Lambert wrote:
> 
>> I agree. Only time will tell, of course. Who better to train people on their 
>> products than Apple themselves? I haven't used it, but I do like their 
>> one-to-one service, and my hope is they've set aside some staff that have 
>> been trained in VoiceOver for us. If not, they should. 
>> 
>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:24 AM, marie Howarth  
>> wrote:
>> I think it all depends on the user and their attitude too. An individual may 
>> hear about macs on a podcast or know of another user with a mac who is also 
>> VI, and take themselves off to the Apple store. In manchester, I know due to 
>> myself and a few other VI customers, most of the staff in the store are 
>> highly familiar with voice over. As for training, I think its coming from 
>> Apple in the near future. 
>> 
>> On 15 Apr 2010, at 10:54, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote:
>> 
>>> I'd very much doubt it Rob.  I don't know what it's like in other 
>>> countries, but here in Ireland most of the trainers are actually sighted.  
>>> Macs haven't penetrated the mainstream userbase to the same extent as 
>>> windows-based Pcs.  Consequently the level of knowledge among the trainers 
>>> on the actual OS itself (not including VO) is virtually non existent.  The 
>>> fact that the trainers would have to go and learn an entirely new platform, 
>>> and then educate themselves in a new style of assistive technology makes it 
>>> pretty certain that the majority of blind users will be stuck with Jaws and 
>>> other badly implemented screenreaders for the foreseeable future.
>>>  
>>> It's sad, but in my opinion true that this is the case.
>>>  
>>> Dónal
>>> 
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob  Lambert
>>> Sent: 15 April 2010 10:47
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: new member
>>> 
>>> Who here thinks we'll see the Mac replacing PCs in AT training offices? 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Joe Plummer  wrote:
>>> For other A T you can run boot camp or virtual windows to use them.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sign,
>>> Joe Plummer ( JP )
>>> joeplum...@tds.net
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:46 PM
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: new member
>>> 
>>> Hello Denise,
>>> 
>>> I hope the word processor you are thinking of getting is iWork09, since MS
>>> Office for Mac is not accessible.
>>> 
>>> As for Word documents of almost any level, TextEdit or Pages will read these
>>> just fine.
>>> 
>>> I can't answer any of your other questions having never been a Windows user.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> Anne
>>> 
>>> On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:27 PM, denise avant wrote:
>>> 
>>> > hello,
>>> > after having my iphone for six months now, i have really enjoyed my
>>> experience with apple. To that end, i am looking into purchasing a mac book
>>> pro. In fact, i called for some specs today and have set one with 4 gig of
>>> ram, and a 320 hard drive, 13 in screen. again this is just a possiblity.
>>> > i will also have the word processor included. i will also have the
>>> one-to-one training as there is a nearby apple store in chicago.
>>> > i am curious as to what those of you who own macs have done about your
>>> other windows based adatpive equipment, duxbury, openbook or k1000 and hw
>>> stream companion? how easy is it to move ms word 2003 2007 docs over to
>>> apple macs, still keep the formatting or move them back again?
>>> > I thought of just keeping my netbook or sony  machine for these purposes.
>>> there was also the idea given to me that i could have windows on one side
>>> and the mac on the other side. any thoughts on these questions would be
>>> apprciated.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
>>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> > For more options,

Re: new member

[olivia norman]

I agree.  I'd still stick with mac, but being able to push a button on a 
windows machine would create some consumer choice, which is always a good thing 
:)

On Apr 15, 2010, at 6:10 AM, Rob Lambert wrote:

> My theory is this: The more Mac users, the better. It will drive the other 
> guys to come up with the same thing for their system, where you could walk up 
> to a Windows PC, and press a button, and it starts talking. Narrator doesn't 
> count. LOL 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:07 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick 
>  wrote:
> Ricardo I am delighted to hear that's the case, however here I can't see it 
> happening for quite some time.  Only the "techie" people are using iPhones, 
> and even then it's happening by word-of-mouth.  Blind people  using the Mac 
> is almost unheard of over here.
>  
> Bring on the revolution! 
> 
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ricardo Walker
> Sent: 15 April 2010 11:02
> 
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: new member
> 
> Hi Donald,
> 
> I disagree.  I think economics will come in to play in the next 3 to 5 years. 
>  The cost of getting a Mac will justify it being looked into as a viable 
> option for agencies.  There are more blind Mac users every day.  I live in 
> New York City and got my first experience to a Mac at a course in intro to 
> the Mac and voiceover as well as garageband I took in the summer of 2008 at 
> the Lighthouse.  I assume such courses will catch on in the future.   
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 5:54 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote:
> 
>> I'd very much doubt it Rob.  I don't know what it's like in other countries, 
>> but here in Ireland most of the trainers are actually sighted.  Macs haven't 
>> penetrated the mainstream userbase to the same extent as windows-based Pcs.  
>> Consequently the level of knowledge among the trainers on the actual OS 
>> itself (not including VO) is virtually non existent.  The fact that the 
>> trainers would have to go and learn an entirely new platform, and then 
>> educate themselves in a new style of assistive technology makes it pretty 
>> certain that the majority of blind users will be stuck with Jaws and other 
>> badly implemented screenreaders for the foreseeable future.
>>  
>> It's sad, but in my opinion true that this is the case.
>>  
>> Dónal
>> 
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob Lambert
>> Sent: 15 April 2010 10:47
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: new member
>> 
>> Who here thinks we'll see the Mac replacing PCs in AT training offices? 
>> 
>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Joe Plummer  wrote:
>> For other A T you can run boot camp or virtual windows to use them.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sign,
>> Joe Plummer ( JP )
>> joeplum...@tds.net
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:46 PM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: new member
>> 
>> Hello Denise,
>> 
>> I hope the word processor you are thinking of getting is iWork09, since MS
>> Office for Mac is not accessible.
>> 
>> As for Word documents of almost any level, TextEdit or Pages will read these
>> just fine.
>> 
>> I can't answer any of your other questions having never been a Windows user.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Anne
>> 
>> On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:27 PM, denise avant wrote:
>> 
>> > hello,
>> > after having my iphone for six months now, i have really enjoyed my
>> experience with apple. To that end, i am looking into purchasing a mac book
>> pro. In fact, i called for some specs today and have set one with 4 gig of
>> ram, and a 320 hard drive, 13 in screen. again this is just a possiblity.
>> > i will also have the word processor included. i will also have the
>> one-to-one training as there is a nearby apple store in chicago.
>> > i am curious as to what those of you who own macs have done about your
>> other windows based adatpive equipment, duxbury, openbook or k1000 and hw
>> stream companion? how easy is it to move ms word 2003 2007 docs over to
>> apple macs, still keep the formatting or move them back again?
>> > I thought of just keeping my netbook or sony  machine for these purposes.
>> there was also the idea given to me that i could have windows on one side
>> and the mac on the other side. any thoughts on these questions would be
>> apprciated.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> > For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
>> >
>> 
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Mac

Re: Non-US people buying a Mac in the US: Warning.

[marie Howarth]

ah, I understand. Good to know that next time I'm in the US, I will refrain 
from buying a mac until, of course my visit is permanent lol

On 15 Apr 2010, at 12:33, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote:

> Hi Marie,
> 
> It's not a problem going from Europe to the US, the problem occurs when
> travelling the other way.  The reason is that the range of channels which,
> by law, we're allowed to broadcast on is greater in Europe.  So for example,
> if you have a router broadcasting on channel 13, a US Mac with a US wireless
> card would not pick it up because it is only configured (again by law) to
> receive channels 1-11. 
> 
> For the hackers among you, there is a fix involving the creation of a
> bootable usb-based Linux distro, booting your Mac using this, and using
> various tools to rewrite the PROM on the wireless card.  All seemed like too
> much work to me to be honest so I just changed the configuration on my
> router 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dónal
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of marie Howarth
> Sent: 15 April 2010 12:28
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Non-US people buying a Mac in the US: Warning.
> 
> That's interesting. When my mac came to the US with me, I had no issues of
> this. my mac was set up on my friend's network in her home. Hmm, very
> interesting.
> 
> On 15 Apr 2010, at 12:20, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote:
> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> I intended to post this months ago and forgot.  On a trip to the 
>> States back in January I decided to take advantage of the excellent 
>> exchange rate and buy a 13" MBP.  I saved a fortune I assure you.
>> 
>> However, on returning home I discovered something I wasn't previously 
>> aware of.  The wireless card in the US models is actually configured 
>> differently from those sold in Europe.  The reason is this.  FCC 
>> regulations in the States means that wireless routers only broadcast 
>> on channels 1-11.  In Europe, we can broadcast on channels 1-13.  So, 
>> wireless cards on Mac machines purchased in the US are only set up to
> operate on channels 1-11.
>> All of my routers were configured to broadcast on channel 13, so my 
>> nice shiny new machine purchased in the US didn't see any of my routers.
>> 
>> It was a very simple fix to adjust the channels downwards, and all is 
>> now fine.  However if you go to, say a public WIFI area, or are using 
>> your machine on a network where you can't control the channel on which 
>> the wireless signal is broadcast, it might, just might, be a problem 
>> for you to purchase your machine in the US.  As an aside, for anyone 
>> travelling to Europe (or Japan) with a US machine, if you can't pick 
>> up a wireless signal that others can, this could be a reason.
>> 
>> This may, and probably will, affect only a few people but I pass it on 
>> for what it's worth.
>> 
>> Cheers
>> 
>> Dónal
>> 
>> --
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> 
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Re: new member

[olivia norman]

I'm optomistic that this will slowly become the case as companies and agencies 
gradually realize apple's full potential.  
Olivia
On Apr 15, 2010, at 5:46 AM, Rob Lambert wrote:

> Who here thinks we'll see the Mac replacing PCs in AT training offices? 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Joe Plummer  wrote:
> For other A T you can run boot camp or virtual windows to use them.
> 
> 
> 
> Sign,
> Joe Plummer ( JP )
> joeplum...@tds.net
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:46 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: new member
> 
> Hello Denise,
> 
> I hope the word processor you are thinking of getting is iWork09, since MS
> Office for Mac is not accessible.
> 
> As for Word documents of almost any level, TextEdit or Pages will read these
> just fine.
> 
> I can't answer any of your other questions having never been a Windows user.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Anne
> 
> On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:27 PM, denise avant wrote:
> 
> > hello,
> > after having my iphone for six months now, i have really enjoyed my
> experience with apple. To that end, i am looking into purchasing a mac book
> pro. In fact, i called for some specs today and have set one with 4 gig of
> ram, and a 320 hard drive, 13 in screen. again this is just a possiblity.
> > i will also have the word processor included. i will also have the
> one-to-one training as there is a nearby apple store in chicago.
> > i am curious as to what those of you who own macs have done about your
> other windows based adatpive equipment, duxbury, openbook or k1000 and hw
> stream companion? how easy is it to move ms word 2003 2007 docs over to
> apple macs, still keep the formatting or move them back again?
> > I thought of just keeping my netbook or sony  machine for these purposes.
> there was also the idea given to me that i could have windows on one side
> and the mac on the other side. any thoughts on these questions would be
> apprciated.
> >
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
> >
> 
> --
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> 
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> 
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Re: What do you think?

[olivia norman]

I just wanted to agree with both of you here.  I am certainly OK with Office, 
though I haven't used it in a few years because I don't own a windows machine 
and an outragiously priced screen reader.  I achieve the same functionality 
with my mac, and I hope that eventually, office for the mac will become 
accessible, but I won't go back to windows, myself unless I am forced to use a 
PC at work, and, if this is the case, I really hope someone will shell out the 
price for jaws, or the like.
Olivia
On Apr 15, 2010, at 5:31 AM, marie Howarth wrote:

> I also want to thank Nick for his lengthy response, you said almost 
> everything I would have said. I think the confusion lies with the ITunes 
> lawsuit. Apple did have a few years without accessibility I believe. 
> Outspoken was discontinued and voice over was brought in and I believe this 
> was due to a state in the US wanting macs for all of its schools during the 
> early 2000s. However, there was no solution for visually impaired users and 
> their was a federal legal issue with the disability discrimination act. Apple 
> said that although they didn't have anything at that present time, they 
> assured the government that something was coming. And indeed they did.
> 
> Anyone who thinks Apple will just stop progressing with voice over really 
> needs their head testing. If it was a pure ploy to quiet the legislation from 
> suing the company for breaching the DDA, [or whatever it is called in the 
> US], then they clearly have not followed anything Apple has done since Tiger. 
> Not only has it kept developing voice over for the mac, but it has introduced 
> a fully functional built in screen reader on all of its touch devices when it 
> has been technically possible. The IPod nanos, the IPhone, the touch, shuffle 
> and now the IPad all have voice over. The fact they not only updated their 
> operating system last august for mac and implemented "new" features with the 
> rotor and such, they continually are developing the IPhone OS too. Why would 
> a company plough not only financial revenue but technical expertise to just 
> "forget" it later on. It doesn't make sense. 
> 
> Every day I hear another person switching to the mac and I honestly feel 
> relief for that person. the days of turning my computer on and it just 
> working makes life easier. As I said in another post on this list, while 
> writing my CV, someone who was helping me from an agency pointed out that I 
> should be "adequate" in MS office. How? When MS isn't adequate for me as a 
> user? I get a lot of businesses supposedly use MS but gradually the market 
> will shift and with more third party developers seeing the potential of the 
> mac platform, it will be definitely a two horse race. I think its tragic we 
> live in a world where visually impaired people are expected to use windows, 
> and expected to use it solely. Granted, some of you need windows for your 
> jobs and your school stuff, but at this moment I am not forced to retreat to 
> an operating system that crashed halfway through writing essays or 
> researching. 
> 
> Here in the UK, the university system is slowly seeing the advantage for 
> students, if they choose to to use a mac. And really, in the vast technology 
> era we live in, it should be about what makes us as individuals more 
> productive. And Apple's continual production of voice over and giving us more 
> features, fixing bugs when we request it, shows how dedicated they are to all 
> of their users, not just the mainstream market.
> 
> And I just did a very long post lol
> 
> On 15 Apr 2010, at 09:47, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> *grins* Sure do. I've got a coffee thermos next to me in my classroom. I'm 
>> supposed to be diligently taking notes, but really, I'm writing blog posts, 
>> tweeting, on seven messaging accounts, and browsing the web while taking 
>> notes.
>> 
>> That said, James has a point here. NFB did retract their statement, although 
>> their statement still was really bias. It said they wanted to open it up for 
>> dialog, yet they continue to trash Apple in the same post.
>> 
>> It just saddens me why this has to happen. I love what Apple has done, and I 
>> know they'll keep it up. I've never sent so many text messages from my 
>> iPhone, never enjoyed a computer this much as a Mac, and had this much fun. 
>> That's because I don't have to worry about any third-party installed screen 
>> reading access software crashing, not starting up, giving me script errors, 
>> and so-on.
>> 
>> I've really found the accessibility team, regardless of my issue, extremely 
>> responsive. The longest time I have waited for a reply to either a 
>> suggestion, comment or issue is a full day. Not longer than that. They've 
>> replied to all my e-mails except one, and I have sent quite a few of them. 
>> But despite that, the feature I asked for was implemented.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Nic
>> Skype: Kvalme
>> MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.g

Re: new member

[marie Howarth]

same thing for me too. I wanted a nano when I heard the accessibility was 
available there. In order to run a nano however, I would need to update my 
Screen reader. We all know the price range I was looking at and to boot I 
needed a new laptop. So when I heard a podcast about the nano and discovered 
the demo was being done with a mac and by a blind mac user at that, my interest 
grew. I knew of voice over, and indeed, had trialed it back in 2005 but the 
people I was trialling with were not familiar with the OS themselves and were 
doing the whole thing from a manual. I was frustrated and was glad to get back 
to the windows side. But when I entered the Apple store, after much research 
about voice over, I put my hands on the mac and I knew this was extremely 
possible. Yes, I wasn't an early adopter but I've been a faithful mac user 
since October 2008 and I don't touch my ancient windows machine ever now. It's 
here, but simply because no one I know wants it. lol
I think the world of the web is helping more and more, yes, adult users become 
familiar with the options and that is a great thing. after all, whatever works 
for you as an individual is what is best.

On 15 Apr 2010, at 12:55, Kaare Dehard wrote:

> In my case 8t was like Marie said, I heard about it in a podcast, and was 
> just starting to shop for new equip. Right time righyt place, and access to 
> fly one for an hour to see were the tipping points.
> 
> On 2010-04-15, at 6:24 AM, marie Howarth wrote:
> 
>> I think it all depends on the user and their attitude too. An individual may 
>> hear about macs on a podcast or know of another user with a mac who is also 
>> VI, and take themselves off to the Apple store. In manchester, I know due to 
>> myself and a few other VI customers, most of the staff in the store are 
>> highly familiar with voice over. As for training, I think its coming from 
>> Apple in the near future. 
>> 
>> On 15 Apr 2010, at 10:54, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote:
>> 
>>> I'd very much doubt it Rob.  I don't know what it's like in other 
>>> countries, but here in Ireland most of the trainers are actually sighted.  
>>> Macs haven't penetrated the mainstream userbase to the same extent as 
>>> windows-based Pcs.  Consequently the level of knowledge among the trainers 
>>> on the actual OS itself (not including VO) is virtually non existent.  The 
>>> fact that the trainers would have to go and learn an entirely new platform, 
>>> and then educate themselves in a new style of assistive technology makes it 
>>> pretty certain that the majority of blind users will be stuck with Jaws and 
>>> other badly implemented screenreaders for the foreseeable future.
>>>  
>>> It's sad, but in my opinion true that this is the case.
>>>  
>>> Dónal
>>> 
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob Lambert
>>> Sent: 15 April 2010 10:47
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: new member
>>> 
>>> Who here thinks we'll see the Mac replacing PCs in AT training offices? 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Joe Plummer  wrote:
>>> For other A T you can run boot camp or virtual windows to use them.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sign,
>>> Joe Plummer ( JP )
>>> joeplum...@tds.net
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:46 PM
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: new member
>>> 
>>> Hello Denise,
>>> 
>>> I hope the word processor you are thinking of getting is iWork09, since MS
>>> Office for Mac is not accessible.
>>> 
>>> As for Word documents of almost any level, TextEdit or Pages will read these
>>> just fine.
>>> 
>>> I can't answer any of your other questions having never been a Windows user.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> Anne
>>> 
>>> On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:27 PM, denise avant wrote:
>>> 
>>> > hello,
>>> > after having my iphone for six months now, i have really enjoyed my
>>> experience with apple. To that end, i am looking into purchasing a mac book
>>> pro. In fact, i called for some specs today and have set one with 4 gig of
>>> ram, and a 320 hard drive, 13 in screen. again this is just a possiblity.
>>> > i will also have the word processor included. i will also have the
>>> one-to-one training as there is a nearby apple store in chicago.
>>> > i am curious as to what those of you who own macs have done about your
>>> other windows based adatpive equipment, duxbury, openbook or k1000 and hw
>>> stream companion? how easy is it to move ms word 2003 2007 docs over to
>>> apple macs, still keep the formatting or move them back again?
>>> > I thought of just keeping my netbook or sony  machine for these purposes.
>>> there was also the idea given to me that i could have windows on one side
>>> and the mac on the other side. any thoughts on these questions would be
>>> apprciated.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>>

Re: What do you think?

[olivia norman]

I agree. Apple truly does make productivity a pleasure!
Olivia
On Apr 15, 2010, at 4:47 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> *grins* Sure do. I've got a coffee thermos next to me in my classroom. I'm 
> supposed to be diligently taking notes, but really, I'm writing blog posts, 
> tweeting, on seven messaging accounts, and browsing the web while taking 
> notes.
> 
> That said, James has a point here. NFB did retract their statement, although 
> their statement still was really bias. It said they wanted to open it up for 
> dialog, yet they continue to trash Apple in the same post.
> 
> It just saddens me why this has to happen. I love what Apple has done, and I 
> know they'll keep it up. I've never sent so many text messages from my 
> iPhone, never enjoyed a computer this much as a Mac, and had this much fun. 
> That's because I don't have to worry about any third-party installed screen 
> reading access software crashing, not starting up, giving me script errors, 
> and so-on.
> 
> I've really found the accessibility team, regardless of my issue, extremely 
> responsive. The longest time I have waited for a reply to either a 
> suggestion, comment or issue is a full day. Not longer than that. They've 
> replied to all my e-mails except one, and I have sent quite a few of them. 
> But despite that, the feature I asked for was implemented.
> 
> Regards,
> Nic
> Skype: Kvalme
> MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
> AIM: cincinster
> yahoo Messenger: cin368
> Facebook Profile
> My Twitter
> 
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 10:38 AM, Cody wrote:
> 
>> Is laughing
>> 
>> We got early morning coffee drinkers I see, this list is really jumpin
>> - Original Message - From: "Rob" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 4:27 AM
>> Subject: Re: What do you think?
>> 
>> 
>>> I saw they did and was surprised, and happy, to see that.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPod
>>> 
>>> On Apr 15, 2010, at 1:22 AM, "James & Nash" >>> wrote:
>>> 
 Although i've already posted on this, I just wanted to add that  despite 
 the criticism that has been levelled at NFB - and rightly,  they have 
 commended Apple's commitment to accesibility on the IPad.
 TC
 James, Lyn, Nash & Twinny
 On 15 Apr 2010, at 09:16, Rob wrote:
 
> Thank you for your input, Nic. Much appreciated. :)
> 
> Sent from my iPod
> 
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 1:12 AM, Charlie Doremus   
> wrote:
> 
>> I would also like to thank you, Nic, for saving my bacon. Like  Anne I 
>> was going to take issue with NFB and others who love to  gripe for the 
>> sake of griping. You saved me from being called  tactless twice in the 
>> same week. Even though I don't use Jaws the  idea of uninstall, install, 
>> uninstall, install, no matter what  program, gives me the creeps.
>> 
>> Sent from the iPad I wish I had
>> 
>> On Apr 14, 2010, at 9:30 PM, Anne Robertson  wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello Nic,
>>> 
>>> Thank you for this post. You've just saved me from going on a  major 
>>> rant along the same lines.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> Anne
>>> 
>>> On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:
>>> 
 Hi,
 
 I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been 
 around for six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to  do 
 with it. Apple is going to keep it up because they are  committed. The 
 article about the lawsuit doesn't actually  mention Apple much.
 
 There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a  threat to 
 the NFB of taking over the technical market. This is  why NFB did not 
 sue Skype, but Apple. Agreement or not, I'm  pretty sure they listened 
 to users using Outspoken and such,  rather than an organization that 
 can't even review the product  properly when it is out. Apple has done 
 far more than anyone for  accessibility improvements. Apple said they 
 had something in  store, and they sure did. I of course realize that 
 it is a  pretty serious statement. Of course, I am not particularly a 
 fan  of the NFB at all. Saying that, NFB has made some seriously  
 inaccurate statements as well, far outweighing mine. NFB  actually has 
 no reason to sue Apple. What would they sue them  for, exactly? 
 Because their products are accessible, and they  want everyone to pay 
 more than what a Macbook costs for  assistive technology? That 
 wouldn't actually surprise me much.  It's all about competition. If 
 they think they're about to be kicked out, of course they would 
 consider Apple a threat.  Because Apple has done something Microsoft 
 has not. All these  things sound really twisted and disgusting to me.
 
 Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to  do 
 with iTunes o

Re: What do you think?

[olivia norman]

I'm glad they finally have woken up, though I honestly don't personally care 
what they think.  I love how the praise apple when it's convenient for them to 
do so, though.  I read an article about VO they wrote a while back which just 
made my blood boil! I don't know if they've written an article on the mac 
platform since that one?
Olivia
On Apr 15, 2010, at 4:22 AM, James & Nash wrote:

> Although i've already posted on this, I just wanted to add that despite the 
> criticism that has been levelled at NFB - and rightly, they have commended 
> Apple's commitment to accesibility on the IPad.
> TC
> James, Lyn, Nash & Twinny
> On 15 Apr 2010, at 09:16, Rob wrote:
> 
>> Thank you for your input, Nic. Much appreciated. :)
>> 
>> Sent from my iPod
>> 
>> On Apr 15, 2010, at 1:12 AM, Charlie Doremus  wrote:
>> 
>>> I would also like to thank you, Nic, for saving my bacon. Like Anne I was 
>>> going to take issue with NFB and others who love to gripe for the sake of 
>>> griping. You saved me from being called tactless twice in the same week. 
>>> Even though I don't use Jaws the idea of uninstall, install, uninstall, 
>>> install, no matter what program, gives me the creeps.
>>> 
>>> Sent from the iPad I wish I had
>>> 
>>> On Apr 14, 2010, at 9:30 PM, Anne Robertson  wrote:
>>> 
 Hello Nic,
 
 Thank you for this post. You've just saved me from going on a major rant 
 along the same lines.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Anne
 
 On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:
 
> Hi,
> 
> I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been around 
> for six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to do with it. 
> Apple is going to keep it up because they are committed. The article 
> about the lawsuit doesn't actually mention Apple much.
> 
> There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a threat to the 
> NFB of taking over the technical market. This is why NFB did not sue 
> Skype, but Apple. Agreement or not, I'm pretty sure they listened to 
> users using Outspoken and such, rather than an organization that can't 
> even review the product properly when it is out. Apple has done far more 
> than anyone for accessibility improvements. Apple said they had something 
> in store, and they sure did. I of course realize that it is a pretty 
> serious statement. Of course, I am not particularly a fan of the NFB at 
> all. Saying that, NFB has made some seriously inaccurate statements as 
> well, far outweighing mine. NFB actually has no reason to sue Apple. What 
> would they sue them for, exactly? Because their products are accessible, 
> and they want everyone to pay more than what a Macbook costs for 
> assistive technology? That wouldn't actually surprise me much. It's all 
> about competition. If they think they're about to be kicked out, of 
> course they would consider Apple a threat. Because Apple has done 
> something Microsoft has not. All these things sound really twisted and 
> disgusting to me.
> 
> Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to do with 
> iTunes on the Windows side. Fair enough, but that is a pretty ridiculous 
> suit if it really is based on accessibility. That is not the case, 
> however, as there are plenty of other useful programs for PCs that are 
> not anywhere near as accessible as iTunes 9. And NFB doesn't care about 
> that. Which, again, leads me to believe that, because NFB is scared of 
> being kicked out, they do everything they can to stop people buying their 
> product. That would make sense.
> 
> Windows users rely on scripts all the time to use any application. I 
> suggest you look through your jAWS folder to see what I mean. Have you 
> even seen just the download size of a JAWS installation? It's outrageous. 
> People who moan about iTunes not being accessible just because the 
> interface accidentally broke, just need to use scripts like they do for 
> everything else. I'm surprised that wasn't their first complaint. JAWS, 
> or just Windows in general, isn't even that stable. If JAWS crashes, it's 
> stupidly difficult most of the time to reload the product. Even if you 
> manage to do so, you will probably run into the screen not being read 
> correctly when reading list boxes or with the cursor. Or, the worst-case 
> scenario. You have to uninstall JAWS 11 after attempting to install Video 
> Intercept, reinstall JAWS 10, install VIdeo Intercept, uninstall JAWS 10 
> then reinstall JAWS 11.
> 
> Maybe I'm slamming the NFB a bit, but really, they need a kick in the 
> ass. I'm just happy the Danish blindness organizations are not this 
> corrupt and twisted, and they actually review fairly and take a proper 
> look at what a company offers before suing them. I'll always be neg

Re: What do you think?

[olivia norman]

LOL! that made me feel better.  I don't subscribe to either blindness 
organization, partly because I don't like their stance on apple, and partly 
just because I don't personally feel that either reprisents me as a blind 
individual.
Olivia
On Apr 15, 2010, at 4:14 AM, Cody wrote:

> lol, that made me chuckle a bit.
> 
> nfb have so many issues and I feel bad for the newly blinded who don't know 
> any better, but they can't f those who've been blind over. I walked out of 
> the training center in mississippi giving them the finger.
> - Original Message - From: "Charlie Doremus" 
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 4:12 AM
> Subject: Re: What do you think?
> 
> 
> I would also like to thank you, Nic, for saving my bacon. Like Anne I was 
> going to take issue with NFB and others who love to gripe for the sake of 
> griping. You saved me from being called tactless twice in the same week. Even 
> though I don't use Jaws the idea of uninstall, install, uninstall, install, 
> no matter what program, gives me the creeps.
> 
> Sent from the iPad I wish I had
> 
> On Apr 14, 2010, at 9:30 PM, Anne Robertson  wrote:
> 
>> Hello Nic,
>> 
>> Thank you for this post. You've just saved me from going on a major rant 
>> along the same lines.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Anne
>> 
>> On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been around for 
>>> six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to do with it. Apple is 
>>> going to keep it up because they are committed. The article about the 
>>> lawsuit doesn't actually mention Apple much.
>>> 
>>> There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a threat to the 
>>> NFB of taking over the technical market. This is why NFB did not sue Skype, 
>>> but Apple. Agreement or not, I'm pretty sure they listened to users using 
>>> Outspoken and such, rather than an organization that can't even review the 
>>> product properly when it is out. Apple has done far more than anyone for 
>>> accessibility improvements. Apple said they had something in store, and 
>>> they sure did. I of course realize that it is a pretty serious statement. 
>>> Of course, I am not particularly a fan of the NFB at all. Saying that, NFB 
>>> has made some seriously inaccurate statements as well, far outweighing 
>>> mine. NFB actually has no reason to sue Apple. What would they sue them 
>>> for, exactly? Because their products are accessible, and they want everyone 
>>> to pay more than what a Macbook costs for assistive technology? That 
>>> wouldn't actually surprise me much. It's all about competition. If they 
>>> think they're about to be kicked out, of course they would consider Apple a 
>>> threat. Because Apple has done something Microsoft has not. All these 
>>> things sound really twisted and disgusting to me.
>>> 
>>> Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to do with 
>>> iTunes on the Windows side. Fair enough, but that is a pretty ridiculous 
>>> suit if it really is based on accessibility. That is not the case, however, 
>>> as there are plenty of other useful programs for PCs that are not anywhere 
>>> near as accessible as iTunes 9. And NFB doesn't care about that. Which, 
>>> again, leads me to believe that, because NFB is scared of being kicked out, 
>>> they do everything they can to stop people buying their product. That would 
>>> make sense.
>>> 
>>> Windows users rely on scripts all the time to use any application. I 
>>> suggest you look through your jAWS folder to see what I mean. Have you even 
>>> seen just the download size of a JAWS installation? It's outrageous. People 
>>> who moan about iTunes not being accessible just because the interface 
>>> accidentally broke, just need to use scripts like they do for everything 
>>> else. I'm surprised that wasn't their first complaint. JAWS, or just 
>>> Windows in general, isn't even that stable. If JAWS crashes, it's stupidly 
>>> difficult most of the time to reload the product. Even if you manage to do 
>>> so, you will probably run into the screen not being read correctly when 
>>> reading list boxes or with the cursor. Or, the worst-case scenario. You 
>>> have to uninstall JAWS 11 after attempting to install Video Intercept, 
>>> reinstall JAWS 10, install VIdeo Intercept, uninstall JAWS 10 then 
>>> reinstall JAWS 11.
>>> 
>>> Maybe I'm slamming the NFB a bit, but really, they need a kick in the ass. 
>>> I'm just happy the Danish blindness organizations are not this corrupt and 
>>> twisted, and they actually review fairly and take a proper look at what a 
>>> company offers before suing them. I'll always be negative about the NFB, 
>>> though I am actually being neutral when talking about the actual lawsuit 
>>> itself.
>>> 
>>> Say what you want to, it won't change my mind. Even if it is someone from 
>>> NFB saying it. Some NFB people are great. Some do incredibly good reviews. 
>>> Some do

Re: What do you think?

[olivia norman]

I completely agree, and on these various mac lists, I have found a population 
of blind people all over the world that I truly feel at home with, apple 
people. :) Many of us don't belong to the conventional organizations, play by 
our own rules to get things done, and just have a love for these wonderful 
products.  This is really a great group of people, and is something I haven't 
really found until now, a segment of the blindness community where I fit.
Olivia
On Apr 15, 2010, at 3:36 AM, Cody wrote:

> Takes a deep breath.
> 
> Oh yeah, like the damn nfb cares. if they cared so much, then why don't 
> training centers demo macs.
> 
> It's call money. I hate the * nfb.
> - Original Message - From: "Anne Robertson" 
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 3:30 AM
> Subject: Re: What do you think?
> 
> 
> Hello Nic,
> 
> Thank you for this post. You've just saved me from going on a major rant 
> along the same lines.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Anne
> 
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been around for 
>> six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to do with it. Apple is 
>> going to keep it up because they are committed. The article about the 
>> lawsuit doesn't actually mention Apple much.
>> 
>> There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a threat to the NFB 
>> of taking over the technical market. This is why NFB did not sue Skype, but 
>> Apple. Agreement or not, I'm pretty sure they listened to users using 
>> Outspoken and such, rather than an organization that can't even review the 
>> product properly when it is out. Apple has done far more than anyone for 
>> accessibility improvements. Apple said they had something in store, and they 
>> sure did. I of course realize that it is a pretty serious statement. Of 
>> course, I am not particularly a fan of the NFB at all. Saying that, NFB has 
>> made some seriously inaccurate statements as well, far outweighing mine. NFB 
>> actually has no reason to sue Apple. What would they sue them for, exactly? 
>> Because their products are accessible, and they want everyone to pay more 
>> than what a Macbook costs for assistive technology? That wouldn't actually 
>> surprise me much. It's all about competition. If they think they're about to 
>> be kicked out, of course they would consider Apple a threat. Because Apple 
>> has done something Microsoft has not. All these things sound really twisted 
>> and disgusting to me.
>> 
>> Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to do with 
>> iTunes on the Windows side. Fair enough, but that is a pretty ridiculous 
>> suit if it really is based on accessibility. That is not the case, however, 
>> as there are plenty of other useful programs for PCs that are not anywhere 
>> near as accessible as iTunes 9. And NFB doesn't care about that. Which, 
>> again, leads me to believe that, because NFB is scared of being kicked out, 
>> they do everything they can to stop people buying their product. That would 
>> make sense.
>> 
>> Windows users rely on scripts all the time to use any application. I suggest 
>> you look through your jAWS folder to see what I mean. Have you even seen 
>> just the download size of a JAWS installation? It's outrageous. People who 
>> moan about iTunes not being accessible just because the interface 
>> accidentally broke, just need to use scripts like they do for everything 
>> else. I'm surprised that wasn't their first complaint. JAWS, or just Windows 
>> in general, isn't even that stable. If JAWS crashes, it's stupidly difficult 
>> most of the time to reload the product. Even if you manage to do so, you 
>> will probably run into the screen not being read correctly when reading list 
>> boxes or with the cursor. Or, the worst-case scenario. You have to uninstall 
>> JAWS 11 after attempting to install Video Intercept, reinstall JAWS 10, 
>> install VIdeo Intercept, uninstall JAWS 10 then reinstall JAWS 11.
>> 
>> Maybe I'm slamming the NFB a bit, but really, they need a kick in the ass. 
>> I'm just happy the Danish blindness organizations are not this corrupt and 
>> twisted, and they actually review fairly and take a proper look at what a 
>> company offers before suing them. I'll always be negative about the NFB, 
>> though I am actually being neutral when talking about the actual lawsuit 
>> itself.
>> 
>> Say what you want to, it won't change my mind. Even if it is someone from 
>> NFB saying it. Some NFB people are great. Some do incredibly good reviews. 
>> Some don't. And in whole, I think the organization just sucks for filing 
>> unnecessary lawsuits for nothing. Maybe I'm going on a childish tantrum 
>> here, perhaps. But once in a while, you need to. A company is trying to 
>> provide great accessibility for their products, and they are sued because of 
>> one problem. iTunes is actually still useful on the Windows side, people. 
>> Quit 

Re: What do you think?

[olivia norman]

This was a suitregarding iTunes, and I am sure that apple will keep up with 
accessibility, because they truly are committed to making products work for 
everyone!  I'd also, personally, take anything the NFB says with a "grain of 
salt" and agree with others that they feel threatened by apple because apple 
represents a potential threat to venders like freedom scientific.
Olivia
On Apr 15, 2010, at 2:08 AM, Rob Lambert wrote:

> I just got wind, from a friend of mine, that the only reason Apple is 
> accessible to us is because of a lawsuit by the NFB. The term of the 
> agreement was for accessibility improvements for three years. Here's a 
> question. First, what's your side of this ordeal? Second, who thinks Apple 
> will keep up with the accessibility improvements after this three year term 
> is up? I apologize for making smooth waters mirky, I just wanted to know what 
> your take on this was. 
> 
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Re: What do you think?

[marie Howarth]

I  know exactly what you mean Olivia. Luckily for me, I never was really 
exposed to any of the blindness organisations and only dealing with one now to 
get support for housing. I do have an employment advisor with them but if she 
keeps telling me I should use windows, I will conveniently not listen. I always 
have and always will play by my own rules. I know what works for me and I know 
what doesn't. I won't be told what works for me as a blind individual by any 
organisation who thinks they know what is best. Since being an apple person as 
you put it, :) I have found other VI people I can relate too. People who seem 
driven and innovative and have a thirst and determination about life. It's 
refreshing. My only "blind" experience I have had in the UK was not a pleasant 
one and it made me grateful I had always gone to mainstream education. Harsh as 
that may sound, it's my opinion. :) but on these various lists, its awesome to 
meet VI people with the same thirst and determination to be far away from the 
stereotype most out there would love to fit us into.

On 15 Apr 2010, at 13:32, olivia norman wrote:

> I completely agree, and on these various mac lists, I have found a population 
> of blind people all over the world that I truly feel at home with, apple 
> people. :) Many of us don't belong to the conventional organizations, play by 
> our own rules to get things done, and just have a love for these wonderful 
> products.  This is really a great group of people, and is something I haven't 
> really found until now, a segment of the blindness community where I fit.
> Olivia
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 3:36 AM, Cody wrote:
> 
>> Takes a deep breath.
>> 
>> Oh yeah, like the damn nfb cares. if they cared so much, then why don't 
>> training centers demo macs.
>> 
>> It's call money. I hate the * nfb.
>> - Original Message - From: "Anne Robertson" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 3:30 AM
>> Subject: Re: What do you think?
>> 
>> 
>> Hello Nic,
>> 
>> Thank you for this post. You've just saved me from going on a major rant 
>> along the same lines.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Anne
>> 
>> On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been around for 
>>> six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to do with it. Apple is 
>>> going to keep it up because they are committed. The article about the 
>>> lawsuit doesn't actually mention Apple much.
>>> 
>>> There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a threat to the 
>>> NFB of taking over the technical market. This is why NFB did not sue Skype, 
>>> but Apple. Agreement or not, I'm pretty sure they listened to users using 
>>> Outspoken and such, rather than an organization that can't even review the 
>>> product properly when it is out. Apple has done far more than anyone for 
>>> accessibility improvements. Apple said they had something in store, and 
>>> they sure did. I of course realize that it is a pretty serious statement. 
>>> Of course, I am not particularly a fan of the NFB at all. Saying that, NFB 
>>> has made some seriously inaccurate statements as well, far outweighing 
>>> mine. NFB actually has no reason to sue Apple. What would they sue them 
>>> for, exactly? Because their products are accessible, and they want everyone 
>>> to pay more than what a Macbook costs for assistive technology? That 
>>> wouldn't actually surprise me much. It's all about competition. If they 
>>> think they're about to be kicked out, of course they would consider Apple a 
>>> threat. Because Apple has done something Microsoft has not. All these 
>>> things sound really twisted and disgusting to me.
>>> 
>>> Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to do with 
>>> iTunes on the Windows side. Fair enough, but that is a pretty ridiculous 
>>> suit if it really is based on accessibility. That is not the case, however, 
>>> as there are plenty of other useful programs for PCs that are not anywhere 
>>> near as accessible as iTunes 9. And NFB doesn't care about that. Which, 
>>> again, leads me to believe that, because NFB is scared of being kicked out, 
>>> they do everything they can to stop people buying their product. That would 
>>> make sense.
>>> 
>>> Windows users rely on scripts all the time to use any application. I 
>>> suggest you look through your jAWS folder to see what I mean. Have you even 
>>> seen just the download size of a JAWS installation? It's outrageous. People 
>>> who moan about iTunes not being accessible just because the interface 
>>> accidentally broke, just need to use scripts like they do for everything 
>>> else. I'm surprised that wasn't their first complaint. JAWS, or just 
>>> Windows in general, isn't even that stable. If JAWS crashes, it's stupidly 
>>> difficult most of the time to reload the product. Even if you manage to do 
>>> so, you will probably run into the screen not being read correc

I'm stuck, Please help

[Carolyn]

Ok, I think this will get the dumbest question of the year award but here goes. 
 I start my macBook Pro, and finder comes up.  No matter what I do next, I 
can't open the apps folder.  I have tried choosing it with item chooser, typing 
apps in, even bring up the doc with VO D.  Sometimes it just says "you are in a 
rich text format.", or some such thing.  I'm sure this is simple, but 
apparently, so am I.
TIA for any help to get back on the Mac.

Carolyn

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Re: I'm stuck, Please help

[Ricardo Walker]

Hi,

Have you tried pressing command w and command q?  After that try pressing 
command shift A to open the applications window.

hth
On Apr 15, 2010, at 8:48 AM, Carolyn wrote:

> Ok, I think this will get the dumbest question of the year award but here 
> goes.  I start my macBook Pro, and finder comes up.  No matter what I do 
> next, I can't open the apps folder.  I have tried choosing it with item 
> chooser, typing apps in, even bring up the doc with VO D.  Sometimes it just 
> says "you are in a rich text format.", or some such thing.  I'm sure this is 
> simple, but apparently, so am I.
> TIA for any help to get back on the Mac.
>  
> Carolyn
> 
> -- 
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> "MacVisionaries" group.
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Re: new member

[Nicolai Svendsen]

Hi,

Actually, if you take the price of a pretty decent, professional desktop or 
laptop, then throw in a JAWS pro license which is $1095, you've got two 
Macbooks, mostly, and then some.

I know a couple of agencies in Denmark that are experimenting with the Mac, and 
they got an iPhone a little wile ago, to.

Regards,
Nic
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On Apr 15, 2010, at 11:57 AM, Rob Lambert wrote:

> I think the same is true here in the states, though it seems to be changing, 
> I think. 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:55 AM, Ricardo Walker  wrote:
> I think it's happening slowly already.  It is just a more cost effective 
> solution than windows computers with the price of a screenreader  thrown in.  
> The transition will take a while because contracts need to be fulfilled and 
> such other things.  Then we will see thee Mac more in schools, government 
> agencies and the like. 
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 5:46 AM, Rob Lambert wrote:
> 
>> Who here thinks we'll see the Mac replacing PCs in AT training offices? 
>> 
>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Joe Plummer  wrote:
>> For other A T you can run boot camp or virtual windows to use them.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sign,
>> Joe Plummer ( JP )
>> joeplum...@tds.net
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:46 PM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: new member
>> 
>> Hello Denise,
>> 
>> I hope the word processor you are thinking of getting is iWork09, since MS
>> Office for Mac is not accessible.
>> 
>> As for Word documents of almost any level, TextEdit or Pages will read these
>> just fine.
>> 
>> I can't answer any of your other questions having never been a Windows user.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Anne
>> 
>> On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:27 PM, denise avant wrote:
>> 
>> > hello,
>> > after having my iphone for six months now, i have really enjoyed my
>> experience with apple. To that end, i am looking into purchasing a mac book
>> pro. In fact, i called for some specs today and have set one with 4 gig of
>> ram, and a 320 hard drive, 13 in screen. again this is just a possiblity.
>> > i will also have the word processor included. i will also have the
>> one-to-one training as there is a nearby apple store in chicago.
>> > i am curious as to what those of you who own macs have done about your
>> other windows based adatpive equipment, duxbury, openbook or k1000 and hw
>> stream companion? how easy is it to move ms word 2003 2007 docs over to
>> apple macs, still keep the formatting or move them back again?
>> > I thought of just keeping my netbook or sony  machine for these purposes.
>> there was also the idea given to me that i could have windows on one side
>> and the mac on the other side. any thoughts on these questions would be
>> apprciated.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>> >
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Re: new member

[Nicolai Svendsen]

Hi,

Not only that, but you are actually getting trainers from Apple. Well, trainers 
who have trained themselves, then offer to train people in VoiceOver. Not 
necessarily for Apple, but just as another viable option for the blind or 
visually impaired.

I'm certain that, as agencies realize the shift in technology, things will 
change. In fact, they are already. Agencies getting Apple products for 
experimentation alone shows that even they are willing to throw out what they 
are used to. Or, at least, try something else. It really is a pain to have so 
many screen readers in one place. So many are using so many of them. And, the 
thing, really, is that despite the short time Apple has actually been at the 
party, Apple is making remarkable progress. Now agencies can actually save 
money.

They don't have to prepare your laptop or desktop. They can just give it to 
you, without any necessary installation procedures. You can set it all up 
yourself, even if you are not familiar with VoiceOver. Even if it is your first 
computer, or if you come from the Windows side. Because, conveniently, Apple 
allows you to try the tutorial during the setup process.

Does it get better than that?

Regards,
Nic
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On Apr 15, 2010, at 12:30 PM, marie Howarth wrote:

> I know in my local store, there are two designated VO trainers and other 
> staff constantly tell me they have played with VO on varying products. I 
> think where there is a demand for it it will happen. Apple is extremely 
> flexible. :)
> 
> On 15 Apr 2010, at 11:27, Rob Lambert wrote:
> 
>> I agree. Only time will tell, of course. Who better to train people on their 
>> products than Apple themselves? I haven't used it, but I do like their 
>> one-to-one service, and my hope is they've set aside some staff that have 
>> been trained in VoiceOver for us. If not, they should. 
>> 
>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:24 AM, marie Howarth  
>> wrote:
>> I think it all depends on the user and their attitude too. An individual may 
>> hear about macs on a podcast or know of another user with a mac who is also 
>> VI, and take themselves off to the Apple store. In manchester, I know due to 
>> myself and a few other VI customers, most of the staff in the store are 
>> highly familiar with voice over. As for training, I think its coming from 
>> Apple in the near future. 
>> 
>> On 15 Apr 2010, at 10:54, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote:
>> 
>>> I'd very much doubt it Rob.  I don't know what it's like in other 
>>> countries, but here in Ireland most of the trainers are actually sighted.  
>>> Macs haven't penetrated the mainstream userbase to the same extent as 
>>> windows-based Pcs.  Consequently the level of knowledge among the trainers 
>>> on the actual OS itself (not including VO) is virtually non existent.  The 
>>> fact that the trainers would have to go and learn an entirely new platform, 
>>> and then educate themselves in a new style of assistive technology makes it 
>>> pretty certain that the majority of blind users will be stuck with Jaws and 
>>> other badly implemented screenreaders for the foreseeable future.
>>>  
>>> It's sad, but in my opinion true that this is the case.
>>>  
>>> Dónal
>>> 
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob Lambert
>>> Sent: 15 April 2010 10:47
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: new member
>>> 
>>> Who here thinks we'll see the Mac replacing PCs in AT training offices? 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Joe Plummer  wrote:
>>> For other A T you can run boot camp or virtual windows to use them.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sign,
>>> Joe Plummer ( JP )
>>> joeplum...@tds.net
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:46 PM
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: new member
>>> 
>>> Hello Denise,
>>> 
>>> I hope the word processor you are thinking of getting is iWork09, since MS
>>> Office for Mac is not accessible.
>>> 
>>> As for Word documents of almost any level, TextEdit or Pages will read these
>>> just fine.
>>> 
>>> I can't answer any of your other questions having never been a Windows user.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> Anne
>>> 
>>> On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:27 PM, denise avant wrote:
>>> 
>>> > hello,
>>> > after having my iphone for six months now, i have really enjoyed my
>>> experience with apple. To that end, i am looking into purchasing a mac book
>>> pro. In fact, i called for some specs today and have set one with 4 gig of
>>> ram, and a 320 hard drive, 13 in screen. again this is just a possiblity.
>>> > i will also have the word processor included. i will also have the
>>> one-to-one training as there is a nearby apple store in chicago.
>>> > i am curious as to wh

Re: Non-US people buying a Mac in the US: Warning.

[Nicolai Svendsen]

Hi,

Man, I was thinking of doing the same thing. The exchange rate is excellent, 
and we pay a fortune just to get the Macbooks. Not the Pro ones, but just the 
regular ones. I guess that plan is out of the question.

Regards,
Nic
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On Apr 15, 2010, at 1:20 PM, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> I intended to post this months ago and forgot.  On a trip to the States back
> in January I decided to take advantage of the excellent exchange rate and
> buy a 13" MBP.  I saved a fortune I assure you.
> 
> However, on returning home I discovered something I wasn't previously aware
> of.  The wireless card in the US models is actually configured differently
> from those sold in Europe.  The reason is this.  FCC regulations in the
> States means that wireless routers only broadcast on channels 1-11.  In
> Europe, we can broadcast on channels 1-13.  So, wireless cards on Mac
> machines purchased in the US are only set up to operate on channels 1-11.
> All of my routers were configured to broadcast on channel 13, so my nice
> shiny new machine purchased in the US didn't see any of my routers.
> 
> It was a very simple fix to adjust the channels downwards, and all is now
> fine.  However if you go to, say a public WIFI area, or are using your
> machine on a network where you can't control the channel on which the
> wireless signal is broadcast, it might, just might, be a problem for you to
> purchase your machine in the US.  As an aside, for anyone travelling to
> Europe (or Japan) with a US machine, if you can't pick up a wireless signal
> that others can, this could be a reason.
> 
> This may, and probably will, affect only a few people but I pass it on for
> what it's worth.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dónal
> 
> -- 
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Re: Who else has seen the iPad?

[Buddy Brannan]

I just ordered one for Melanie yesterday. She saw an unboxing video and got 
really excited. Looking forward to seeing it. I also ordered the keyboard dock, 
case, and camera connection kit.
--
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Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY



On Apr 15, 2010, at 5:32 AM, marie Howarth wrote:

> I know, I know. in the same situation across the pond. I just can't wait to 
> touch one and bring one home to live with the mac, the nano and the IPhone. 
> :) what a happy little Apple family :)
> 
> On 15 Apr 2010, at 10:30, May McDonald wrote:
> 
>> Man, I am so jealous. Canada won't get the IPad until the end of next month, 
>> cry cry.
>> 
>> May and Wyn
>> On 2010-04-15, at 1:21 AM, Rob wrote:
>> 
>>> I played with it for an hour and a half. I was hooked. I just can't get 
>>> over the large screen. I also can't decide if I should get the first 
>>> generation, or wait. Engadget found a group of folk who tore down the iPad, 
>>> and revealed the inner holdings for a webcam, the same as the iSight on the 
>>> iMac & MacBooks.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPod
>>> 
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>> 
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Re: itunes and option key

[Donna Goodin]

Yeah, I do to.  That's why I was kind of bummed when I thought I couldn't use 
that shortcut anymore. :)
Take care,
Donna
On Apr 15, 2010, at 1:34 AM, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> I love the keyboard commander. it is way too cool and sometimes is faster 
> then the doc.
> 
> Take care.
> On Apr 14, 2010, at 8:00 PM, Donna Goodin wrote:
> 
>> I just tried launching itunes with the keypad commander, but made sure to 
>> release the option key.  It launched without a problem.  Thanks so much for 
>> pointing out the option key thing.
>> Best,
>> Donna
>> 
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Re: What do you think?

[Buddy Brannan]

Not true. Voiceover went down long before the iTunes lawsuit settlement. 
Moreover, the iTunes accessibility was probably in the works before said 
settlement. 
--
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Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY



On Apr 15, 2010, at 2:08 AM, Rob Lambert wrote:

> I just got wind, from a friend of mine, that the only reason Apple is 
> accessible to us is because of a lawsuit by the NFB. The term of the 
> agreement was for accessibility improvements for three years. Here's a 
> question. First, what's your side of this ordeal? Second, who thinks Apple 
> will keep up with the accessibility improvements after this three year term 
> is up? I apologize for making smooth waters mirky, I just wanted to know what 
> your take on this was. 
> 
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RE: Non-US people buying a Mac in the US: Warning.

[Dónal Fitzpatrick]

Ah no Nick purchasing over there is not out of the question.  I have to say
I've been using my US-purchased machine since January with no problems.
However, I can envisage a situation where I'm on a network which I don't
control and where I can't change the broadcast channel.  Raising it is
probably me just being picky but I'd prefer if there was some kind of
setting I could adjust to change the locale of the card or something. 

Cheers

Dónal
-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nicolai Svendsen
Sent: 15 April 2010 14:14
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Non-US people buying a Mac in the US: Warning.

Hi,

Man, I was thinking of doing the same thing. The exchange rate is excellent,
and we pay a fortune just to get the Macbooks. Not the Pro ones, but just
the regular ones. I guess that plan is out of the question.

Regards,
Nic
Skype: Kvalme
MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
AIM: cincinster
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On Apr 15, 2010, at 1:20 PM, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> I intended to post this months ago and forgot.  On a trip to the 
> States back in January I decided to take advantage of the excellent 
> exchange rate and buy a 13" MBP.  I saved a fortune I assure you.
> 
> However, on returning home I discovered something I wasn't previously 
> aware of.  The wireless card in the US models is actually configured 
> differently from those sold in Europe.  The reason is this.  FCC 
> regulations in the States means that wireless routers only broadcast 
> on channels 1-11.  In Europe, we can broadcast on channels 1-13.  So, 
> wireless cards on Mac machines purchased in the US are only set up to
operate on channels 1-11.
> All of my routers were configured to broadcast on channel 13, so my 
> nice shiny new machine purchased in the US didn't see any of my routers.
> 
> It was a very simple fix to adjust the channels downwards, and all is 
> now fine.  However if you go to, say a public WIFI area, or are using 
> your machine on a network where you can't control the channel on which 
> the wireless signal is broadcast, it might, just might, be a problem 
> for you to purchase your machine in the US.  As an aside, for anyone 
> travelling to Europe (or Japan) with a US machine, if you can't pick 
> up a wireless signal that others can, this could be a reason.
> 
> This may, and probably will, affect only a few people but I pass it on 
> for what it's worth.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dónal
> 
> --
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Re: What do you think?

[Nicolai Svendsen]

Hi,

The lawsuit was not in 2004, but 2008 I believe. Perhaps 2009. The lawsuit had 
nothing to do with it. That was only because they wanted to complain about 
iTunes, just because they wanted to pretend that people shouldn't pay £41 for 
jTunes. Which, personally, I think is an outrageous price considering iTunes 
itself is free.

Anyway.

I am not quite sure of Danish agencies. By the sound of it, they're definitely 
open to a breath of fresh air. They got themselves iPhones and Macs now, and a 
lot of the time when I'm acquiring new equipment, I am getting asked as to 
whether I use JAWS on Windows, or VoiceOver on a Mac.

It's kind of strange, though. I've never actually heard anyone mention 
Window-Eyes over here, which makes me wonder if it is even localized.

Regards,
Nic
Skype: Kvalme
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On Apr 15, 2010, at 12:11 PM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:

> Nic, just out of curiosity, what is the danish organisation for the blinds 
> view on Apple products?
> I have a feeling, though i could be wrong, that the swedish blindness 
> organisation is a bit on the conservative side when it comes to the Apple 
> products, however i could be wrong.
> /Krister
> 
> 
> 15 apr 2010 kl. 09.14 skrev Nicolai Svendsen:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been around for 
>> six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to do with it. Apple is 
>> going to keep it up because they are committed. The article about the 
>> lawsuit doesn't actually mention Apple much.
>> 
>> There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a threat to the NFB 
>> of taking over the technical market. This is why NFB did not sue Skype, but 
>> Apple. Agreement or not, I'm pretty sure they listened to users using 
>> Outspoken and such, rather than an organization that can't even review the 
>> product properly when it is out. Apple has done far more than anyone for 
>> accessibility improvements. Apple said they had something in store, and they 
>> sure did. I of course realize that it is a pretty serious statement. Of 
>> course, I am not particularly a fan of the NFB at all. Saying that, NFB has 
>> made some seriously inaccurate statements as well, far outweighing mine. NFB 
>> actually has no reason to sue Apple. What would they sue them for, exactly? 
>> Because their products are accessible, and they want everyone to pay more 
>> than what a Macbook costs for assistive technology? That wouldn't actually 
>> surprise me much. It's all about competition. If they think they're about to 
>> be kicked out, of course they would consider Apple a threat. Because Apple 
>> has done something Microsoft has not. All these things sound really twisted 
>> and disgusting to me.
>> 
>> Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to do with 
>> iTunes on the Windows side. Fair enough, but that is a pretty ridiculous 
>> suit if it really is based on accessibility. That is not the case, however, 
>> as there are plenty of other useful programs for PCs that are not anywhere 
>> near as accessible as iTunes 9. And NFB doesn't care about that. Which, 
>> again, leads me to believe that, because NFB is scared of being kicked out, 
>> they do everything they can to stop people buying their product. That would 
>> make sense.
>> 
>> Windows users rely on scripts all the time to use any application. I suggest 
>> you look through your jAWS folder to see what I mean. Have you even seen 
>> just the download size of a JAWS installation? It's outrageous. People who 
>> moan about iTunes not being accessible just because the interface 
>> accidentally broke, just need to use scripts like they do for everything 
>> else. I'm surprised that wasn't their first complaint. JAWS, or just Windows 
>> in general, isn't even that stable. If JAWS crashes, it's stupidly difficult 
>> most of the time to reload the product. Even if you manage to do so, you 
>> will probably run into the screen not being read correctly when reading list 
>> boxes or with the cursor. Or, the worst-case scenario. You have to uninstall 
>> JAWS 11 after attempting to install Video Intercept, reinstall JAWS 10, 
>> install VIdeo Intercept, uninstall JAWS 10 then reinstall JAWS 11.
>> 
>> Maybe I'm slamming the NFB a bit, but really, they need a kick in the ass. 
>> I'm just happy the Danish blindness organizations are not this corrupt and 
>> twisted, and they actually review fairly and take a proper look at what a 
>> company offers before suing them. I'll always be negative about the NFB, 
>> though I am actually being neutral when talking about the actual lawsuit 
>> itself.
>> 
>> Say what you want to, it won't change my mind. Even if it is someone from 
>> NFB saying it. Some NFB people are great. Some do incredibly good reviews. 
>> Some don't. And in whole, I think the organization just sucks for filing 
>> unnecessary lawsu

Re: Who else has seen the iPad?

[Nicolai Svendsen]

Hi,

Yes, you can already get iPads in the UK, actually. They can be imported. There 
is a store over there that will take care of that.

Regards,
Nic
Skype: Kvalme
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On Apr 15, 2010, at 11:38 AM, marie Howarth wrote:

> Not sure about Canada, but it's looking like the UK will get both 3G and wifi 
> at the same times. Three of our major networks stated yesterday that they 
> will be offering "dedicated plans" for the IPads at the end of May. *rubs 
> hands together* :) 
> It was the only good news I got yesterday lol :(
> 
> On 15 Apr 2010, at 10:33, Rob Lambert wrote:
> 
>> You'd think that, since Canada & the U.S. are so close, that Apple would 
>> treat them the same, regarding shipping schedules. It's possible you guys 
>> will get the WiFi & 3G models at the same time though, because we already 
>> have the WiFi model in the states. We'll be getting the 3G model at the end 
>> of the month. 
>> 
>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:30 AM, May McDonald  wrote:
>> Man, I am so jealous. Canada won't get the IPad until the end of next month, 
>> cry cry.
>> 
>> May and Wyn
>> On 2010-04-15, at 1:21 AM, Rob wrote:
>> 
>> > I played with it for an hour and a half. I was hooked. I just can't get 
>> > over the large screen. I also can't decide if I should get the first 
>> > generation, or wait. Engadget found a group of folk who tore down the 
>> > iPad, and revealed the inner holdings for a webcam, the same as the iSight 
>> > on the iMac & MacBooks.
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPod
>> >
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> 
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Re: What do you think?

[Carolyn]

I would agree with those taking issue with the NFB.  It scares me that so many 
organizations in the US take the NFB's word as speaking for the whole "blind" 
population, (which the NFB loves to refer to as "the blind."  Unfortunately, 
they are taking credit in some cases for their lawsuit "making apple address 
accessibility."  Then they turn around and kick Apple in the teeth with 
inaccurate reviews knocking Apple's effort.  Quite frankly, they scare me.

Sorry for my soapbox addition to this.  But it's hard for me to stay out of a 
discussion regarding a group that tries to take credit for everything good that 
happens and sometimes tries to "save the world" for the population they 
lovingly call  "the blind."
This is just one more reason for me to champion for Apple who isn't doing 
anything but leveling the playing field for all.

Thank you Mr. Jobbs, and all of you brilliant engineers at Apple.
 
Carolyn
  - Original Message - 
  From: Kaare Dehard 
  To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 5:40 AM
  Subject: Re: What do you think?


  Rob, we like worms. because of the shift in availability of screen readers, 
and a lot of them coming at no charge in the apple product line, this sort of 
thing comes up more often than would be liked. Some of the people that would 
like to keep their special status feel it necessary to make the waters mirky. 
We really don't mind providing our thoughts and perspectives on these sort of 
things.

  On 2010-04-15, at 3:31 AM, Rob Lambert wrote:


I apologize if I opened a can of worms.


On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 12:30 AM, Anne Robertson  
wrote:

  Hello Nic,

  Thank you for this post. You've just saved me from going on a major rant 
along the same lines.

  Cheers,

  Anne


  On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:

  > Hi,
  >
  > I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been around 
for six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to do with it. Apple is 
going to keep it up because they are committed. The article about the lawsuit 
doesn't actually mention Apple much.
  >
  > There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a threat to 
the NFB of taking over the technical market. This is why NFB did not sue Skype, 
but Apple. Agreement or not, I'm pretty sure they listened to users using 
Outspoken and such, rather than an organization that can't even review the 
product properly when it is out. Apple has done far more than anyone for 
accessibility improvements. Apple said they had something in store, and they 
sure did. I of course realize that it is a pretty serious statement. Of course, 
I am not particularly a fan of the NFB at all. Saying that, NFB has made some 
seriously inaccurate statements as well, far outweighing mine. NFB actually has 
no reason to sue Apple. What would they sue them for, exactly? Because their 
products are accessible, and they want everyone to pay more than what a Macbook 
costs for assistive technology? That wouldn't actually surprise me much. It's 
all about competition. If they think they're about to be kicked out, of course 
they would consider Apple a threat. Because Apple has done something Microsoft 
has not. All these things sound really twisted and disgusting to me.
  >
  > Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to do with 
iTunes on the Windows side. Fair enough, but that is a pretty ridiculous suit 
if it really is based on accessibility. That is not the case, however, as there 
are plenty of other useful programs for PCs that are not anywhere near as 
accessible as iTunes 9. And NFB doesn't care about that. Which, again, leads me 
to believe that, because NFB is scared of being kicked out, they do everything 
they can to stop people buying their product. That would make sense.
  >
  > Windows users rely on scripts all the time to use any application. I 
suggest you look through your jAWS folder to see what I mean. Have you even 
seen just the download size of a JAWS installation? It's outrageous. People who 
moan about iTunes not being accessible just because the interface accidentally 
broke, just need to use scripts like they do for everything else. I'm surprised 
that wasn't their first complaint. JAWS, or just Windows in general, isn't even 
that stable. If JAWS crashes, it's stupidly difficult most of the time to 
reload the product. Even if you manage to do so, you will probably run into the 
screen not being read correctly when reading list boxes or with the cursor. Or, 
the worst-case scenario. You have to uninstall JAWS 11 after attempting to 
install Video Intercept, reinstall JAWS 10, install VIdeo Intercept, uninstall 
JAWS 10 then reinstall JAWS 11.
  >
  > Maybe I'm slamming the NFB a bit, but really, they need a kick in the 
ass. I'm just happy the Danish blindness organizations are not this corrupt and 
twisted, and they actual

Re: I'm stuck, Please help

[Carolyn]

Thanks Ricardo:  I'll do this.  Honestly, sometimes I fear I won't make sense 
out of this mac which I sort of admire from afar until my little Dell dies and 
forces me to learn.
Again, I thank you.

Carolyn
  - Original Message - 
  From: Ricardo Walker 
  To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 7:05 AM
  Subject: Re: I'm stuck, Please help


  Hi,


  Have you tried pressing command w and command q?  After that try pressing 
command shift A to open the applications window.


  hth

  On Apr 15, 2010, at 8:48 AM, Carolyn wrote:


Ok, I think this will get the dumbest question of the year award but here 
goes.  I start my macBook Pro, and finder comes up.  No matter what I do next, 
I can't open the apps folder.  I have tried choosing it with item chooser, 
typing apps in, even bring up the doc with VO D.  Sometimes it just says "you 
are in a rich text format.", or some such thing.  I'm sure this is simple, but 
apparently, so am I.
TIA for any help to get back on the Mac.

Carolyn


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Re: new member

[erik burggraaf]

Not I,  As an access technology trainer I get to teach an increasing amount of 
mac, and I know that there's a trend happening among educated consumeers.  I 
also know that most blind people aren't educated consumers.  They are shut in 
old people with no way to get information for themselves until their windows pc 
shows up.

Unfortunately theres too much money rapped up in selling $1200 screen reader 
packages to old people who want to email the grand kids and no one wants to 
hear about lower costs and built in accessibility.  

Here in Ontario there is certainly an awareness and some more room for it to 
grow, but I think we're going to see mac use peek out here in the next couple 
of years and then stay sort'a level around the %5 to %10 mark.

Best,

Erik Burggraaf
APlus certified technician and user support consultant
Call toll-free: 1-888-255-5194
Visit my all new website: http://www.erik-burggraaf.com
Email: e...@erik-burggraaf.com

On 2010-04-15, at 5:46 AM, Rob Lambert wrote:

> Who here thinks we'll see the Mac replacing PCs in AT training offices? 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Joe Plummer  wrote:
> For other A T you can run boot camp or virtual windows to use them.
> 
> 
> 
> Sign,
> Joe Plummer ( JP )
> joeplum...@tds.net
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:46 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: new member
> 
> Hello Denise,
> 
> I hope the word processor you are thinking of getting is iWork09, since MS
> Office for Mac is not accessible.
> 
> As for Word documents of almost any level, TextEdit or Pages will read these
> just fine.
> 
> I can't answer any of your other questions having never been a Windows user.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Anne
> 
> On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:27 PM, denise avant wrote:
> 
> > hello,
> > after having my iphone for six months now, i have really enjoyed my
> experience with apple. To that end, i am looking into purchasing a mac book
> pro. In fact, i called for some specs today and have set one with 4 gig of
> ram, and a 320 hard drive, 13 in screen. again this is just a possiblity.
> > i will also have the word processor included. i will also have the
> one-to-one training as there is a nearby apple store in chicago.
> > i am curious as to what those of you who own macs have done about your
> other windows based adatpive equipment, duxbury, openbook or k1000 and hw
> stream companion? how easy is it to move ms word 2003 2007 docs over to
> apple macs, still keep the formatting or move them back again?
> > I thought of just keeping my netbook or sony  machine for these purposes.
> there was also the idea given to me that i could have windows on one side
> and the mac on the other side. any thoughts on these questions would be
> apprciated.
> >
> >
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Reading the status bar with voiceover

[Doug Lawlor]

Hello all:
I am relatively new to the mac and have a quick question. I notice in several 
applications, Safari being one of these, there is a command in the view menu to 
show and hide the status bar. However, when I show the status bar I cannot seem 
to read this using any of the Voiceover commands. How does one go about reading 
the status bar? Am I missing a command?  

Thanks in advance, 

Doug

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Re: Who else has seen the iPad?

[marie Howarth]

Really? That's interesting. However, I'm looking for a 3G model so will have to 
wait until end of May anyway and I doubt the price is as cheap as what the 
retail price will be here in the UK. 

On 15 Apr 2010, at 14:23, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Yes, you can already get iPads in the UK, actually. They can be imported. 
> There is a store over there that will take care of that.
> 
> Regards,
> Nic
> Skype: Kvalme
> MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
> AIM: cincinster
> yahoo Messenger: cin368
> Facebook Profile
> My Twitter
> 
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 11:38 AM, marie Howarth wrote:
> 
>> Not sure about Canada, but it's looking like the UK will get both 3G and 
>> wifi at the same times. Three of our major networks stated yesterday that 
>> they will be offering "dedicated plans" for the IPads at the end of May. 
>> *rubs hands together* :) 
>> It was the only good news I got yesterday lol :(
>> 
>> On 15 Apr 2010, at 10:33, Rob Lambert wrote:
>> 
>>> You'd think that, since Canada & the U.S. are so close, that Apple would 
>>> treat them the same, regarding shipping schedules. It's possible you guys 
>>> will get the WiFi & 3G models at the same time though, because we already 
>>> have the WiFi model in the states. We'll be getting the 3G model at the end 
>>> of the month. 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:30 AM, May McDonald  
>>> wrote:
>>> Man, I am so jealous. Canada won't get the IPad until the end of next 
>>> month, cry cry.
>>> 
>>> May and Wyn
>>> On 2010-04-15, at 1:21 AM, Rob wrote:
>>> 
>>> > I played with it for an hour and a half. I was hooked. I just can't get 
>>> > over the large screen. I also can't decide if I should get the first 
>>> > generation, or wait. Engadget found a group of folk who tore down the 
>>> > iPad, and revealed the inner holdings for a webcam, the same as the 
>>> > iSight on the iMac & MacBooks.
>>> >
>>> > Sent from my iPod
>>> >
>>> > --
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> 
> 
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Re: Reading the status bar with voiceover

[marie Howarth]

Hi Doug,
vo--shift--M twice will bring up the status bar. 
It holds such items as your clock, battery status if you are using a mac, and 
for several apps such as time machine and bluetooth,
hth

On 15 Apr 2010, at 14:44, Doug Lawlor wrote:

> Hello all:
> I am relatively new to the mac and have a quick question. I notice in several 
> applications, Safari being one of these, there is a command in the view menu 
> to show and hide the status bar. However, when I show the status bar I cannot 
> seem to read this using any of the Voiceover commands. How does one go about 
> reading the status bar? Am I missing a command?  
> 
> Thanks in advance, 
> 
> Doug
> 
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Re: What do you think?

[Søren Jensen]

Hi.

I'm sorry if I go a bit off-topic here, but here goes:

Denmark is a extremely small country, with only something like 5 million 
people, which means we are only something like 3 blind or visualy impaired 
people. That means we don't have something like NFB or other big organisasions 
for blind and visually impaired who are always up-to-date with the latest 
technology for blind and visually impaired. However, we do have some really 
great organisations for blind people, but they are pretty small.
That means if we wanna follow the news regarding the latest technology, we have 
to do it on our own. Not said that the danish organisations doesn't do their 
job very well. I'm just trying to say that here in Denmark, there aren't many 
people who work on full-time to write reviews about the latest accessibility 
for blind and visually impaired.
That's one of the reasons for there aren't many blind Mac-users here in 
Denmark. Because the country is very small, it takes a while to spred the word 
out to all people, because there aren't many people to do it. Things just takes 
a while in small countries.
I'm one of the first blind people here in Denmark who bought my Mac with 
Voiceover. I remember myself just sitting there with my Mac for a half year, 
trying to explain to people what Mac and VOiceover is, and they didn't believed 
me. I was really happy about my choice. I constantly hurd about other blind 
people, talking about their issues with Jaws and other screenreaders. I was 
just sitting there with my Mac, and thought to myself: "What could I do to make 
people listen?" I got more and more frustrated cause people just said Mac sucks 
and Voiceover sucks, but then I told them about how VOiceover works, and they 
shot up. Lol. :)
Then I created my own danish mailinglist for blind and visually impaired 
Mac-users, and people got more and more interested. Now, that's two years ago, 
and now I think we are more than 10 blind Mac-users. It's not much, but I think 
it's great if you think about how small country Denmark is.
More and more blind people here in Denmark are interested in Mac computers and 
Voiceover, and many blind people are considering buying a Mac computer. I'm 
really happy to see that things are going to change after much hard work. Now 
we are a lot of blind Mac-users to tell about how it works, which makes things 
going faster.

I'm sorry to go off-topic. I just wanna tell about Denmark, where Nic and I 
live.
Best regards
Søren Jensen
Mail & MSN:
s...@coolfortheblind.dk
Website:
http://www.coolfortheblind.dk/

Den Apr 15, 2010 kl. 3:19 PM skrev Nicolai Svendsen:

> Hi,
> 
> The lawsuit was not in 2004, but 2008 I believe. Perhaps 2009. The lawsuit 
> had nothing to do with it. That was only because they wanted to complain 
> about iTunes, just because they wanted to pretend that people shouldn't pay 
> £41 for jTunes. Which, personally, I think is an outrageous price considering 
> iTunes itself is free.
> 
> Anyway.
> 
> I am not quite sure of Danish agencies. By the sound of it, they're 
> definitely open to a breath of fresh air. They got themselves iPhones and 
> Macs now, and a lot of the time when I'm acquiring new equipment, I am 
> getting asked as to whether I use JAWS on Windows, or VoiceOver on a Mac.
> 
> It's kind of strange, though. I've never actually heard anyone mention 
> Window-Eyes over here, which makes me wonder if it is even localized.
> 
> Regards,
> Nic
> Skype: Kvalme
> MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
> AIM: cincinster
> yahoo Messenger: cin368
> Facebook Profile
> My Twitter
> 
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 12:11 PM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:
> 
>> Nic, just out of curiosity, what is the danish organisation for the blinds 
>> view on Apple products?
>> I have a feeling, though i could be wrong, that the swedish blindness 
>> organisation is a bit on the conservative side when it comes to the Apple 
>> products, however i could be wrong.
>> /Krister
>> 
>> 
>> 15 apr 2010 kl. 09.14 skrev Nicolai Svendsen:
>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been around for 
>>> six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to do with it. Apple is 
>>> going to keep it up because they are committed. The article about the 
>>> lawsuit doesn't actually mention Apple much.
>>> 
>>> There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a threat to the 
>>> NFB of taking over the technical market. This is why NFB did not sue Skype, 
>>> but Apple. Agreement or not, I'm pretty sure they listened to users using 
>>> Outspoken and such, rather than an organization that can't even review the 
>>> product properly when it is out. Apple has done far more than anyone for 
>>> accessibility improvements. Apple said they had something in store, and 
>>> they sure did. I of course realize that it is a pretty serious statement. 
>>> Of course, I am not particularly a fan of the NFB at all. Saying that, NFB 
>>> has made some seriously inaccur

Re: Reading the status bar with voiceover

[Doug Lawlor]

Hi Marie,
I know about the vo-shift-m twice command to read the status menu. I am talking 
about something different here. To get an example of this go into Safari and 
type command-slash and you should hear Vo either say "Show status bar" or "Hide 
status bar" depending on it's current state. I am trying to figure out how to 
read this particular status bar. 

Thanks, 

Doug

On 2010-04-15, at 11:31 AM, marie Howarth wrote:

> Hi Doug,
> vo--shift--M twice will bring up the status bar. 
> It holds such items as your clock, battery status if you are using a mac, and 
> for several apps such as time machine and bluetooth,
> hth
> 
> On 15 Apr 2010, at 14:44, Doug Lawlor wrote:
> 
>> Hello all:
>> I am relatively new to the mac and have a quick question. I notice in 
>> several applications, Safari being one of these, there is a command in the 
>> view menu to show and hide the status bar. However, when I show the status 
>> bar I cannot seem to read this using any of the Voiceover commands. How does 
>> one go about reading the status bar? Am I missing a command?  
>> 
>> Thanks in advance, 
>> 
>> Doug
>> 
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Re: new member

[Carolyn]

I'm such a regular at my Apple store, (mostly while my twelve-year-old shops 
elsewhere), that they apple team usually offers me a chair when I get in front 
of one of their Macs.  
Carolyn
  - Original Message - 
  From: marie Howarth 
  To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 5:19 AM
  Subject: Re: new member


  They are my local apple store and I love the guys in there! Just last Monday 
I popped into play with a mac. I'm planning on getting a new macbook later this 
year and was playing with the track pad in the store. Always so helpful and 
friendly. :)


  On 15 Apr 2010, at 12:12, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote:


Very interesting that RNIB are offering those training days.  I don't think 
the NCBI (Irish equivalent) do.  Referring back to a previous note on this 
thread, you're quite correct that the guys at the Applestore in Manchester are 
superb.  I'm over there rather a lot for religious (sorry soccer!) reasons and 
I pop in there pretty much every trip to play with the toys and look at the 
accessories I shouldn't buy but would love to have.  On each occasion I've 
encountered people who knew the assistive products on macs and iPhones.  Ah, 
wouldn't it be nice to have a local Apple store 

Cheers

Dónal




From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of marie Howarth
Sent: 15 April 2010 12:03
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: new member


I've just done a little scouting around. And I was wrong. RNIB actually 
have offered training days for agencies, people with a VI and parents of 
children who are have VI children. They also list the IPhone on their 
accessible phones list. I guess the information has not filtered across to 
their organisation who carries out the support. 
So I guess they acknowledge the fact but don't shout about it. 


On 15 Apr 2010, at 11:46, Rob Lambert wrote:


  Very valid point, Ricardo. I agree whole heartedly. 


  On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Ricardo Walker  
wrote:

Hi, 


I think it has to start with agencies for the blind and the educational 
system.  As an adult it's easy enough to just get up and go to an apple store, 
or have the money to pay for 1 on 1 training at said apple store.  But a 12 
year old not so much.  I think younger people must be exposed to other options. 
 It doesn't even have anything to do with how great Apple is.  It's just 
creating a market where people can obtain access to the technology they need 
without selling their first born.  lol.  If anything, I think Apple has started 
to make makers of adaptive technology squirm a bit.  It becomes harder for them 
to justified the cost of their products. 


On Apr 15, 2010, at 6:30 AM, marie Howarth wrote:


  I know in my local store, there are two designated VO trainers and 
other staff constantly tell me they have played with VO on varying products. I 
think where there is a demand for it it will happen. Apple is extremely 
flexible. :) 


  On 15 Apr 2010, at 11:27, Rob Lambert wrote:


I agree. Only time will tell, of course. Who better to train people 
on their products than Apple themselves? I haven't used it, but I do like their 
one-to-one service, and my hope is they've set aside some staff that have been 
trained in VoiceOver for us. If not, they should. 


On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:24 AM, marie Howarth 
 wrote:

  I think it all depends on the user and their attitude too. An 
individual may hear about macs on a podcast or know of another user with a mac 
who is also VI, and take themselves off to the Apple store. In manchester, I 
know due to myself and a few other VI customers, most of the staff in the store 
are highly familiar with voice over. As for training, I think its coming from 
Apple in the near future.  


  On 15 Apr 2010, at 10:54, Dónal Fitzpatrick wrote:


I'd very much doubt it Rob.  I don't know what it's like in 
other countries, but here in Ireland most of the trainers are actually sighted. 
 Macs haven't penetrated the mainstream userbase to the same extent as 
windows-based Pcs.  Consequently the level of knowledge among the trainers on 
the actual OS itself (not including VO) is virtually non existent.  The fact 
that the trainers would have to go and learn an entirely new platform, and then 
educate themselves in a new style of assistive technology makes it pretty 
certain that the majority of blind users will be stuck with Jaws and other 
badly implemented screenreaders for the foreseeable future.

It's sad, but in my opinion true that this is the case.

Dónal




From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:macvisionar.

Re: What do you think?

[Carolyn]

Hey I just gotta chime in here.  I live in Denver.  I'm having difficulty 
making the jump to my Mac.  I've called everywhere I can in Denver, looking for 
someone, anyone to give me the jump start/kick in the rear to really make this 
move from PC to Mac happen.  Guess who has offered the tutoring I need? ... no, 
not the NFB, Not Rehab, but Apple itself with a voice-over trained staffer.  
I'm starting next week!

Carolyn
  - Original Message - 
  From: Cody 
  To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 1:36 AM
  Subject: Re: What do you think?


  Takes a deep breath.

  Oh yeah, like the damn nfb cares. if they cared so much, then why don't 
  training centers demo macs.

  It's call money. I hate the * nfb.
  - Original Message - 
  From: "Anne Robertson" 
  To: 
  Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 3:30 AM
  Subject: Re: What do you think?


  Hello Nic,

  Thank you for this post. You've just saved me from going on a major rant 
  along the same lines.

  Cheers,

  Anne

  On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:

  > Hi,
  >
  > I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been around 
  > for six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to do with it. 
  > Apple is going to keep it up because they are committed. The article about 
  > the lawsuit doesn't actually mention Apple much.
  >
  > There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a threat to the 
  > NFB of taking over the technical market. This is why NFB did not sue 
  > Skype, but Apple. Agreement or not, I'm pretty sure they listened to users 
  > using Outspoken and such, rather than an organization that can't even 
  > review the product properly when it is out. Apple has done far more than 
  > anyone for accessibility improvements. Apple said they had something in 
  > store, and they sure did. I of course realize that it is a pretty serious 
  > statement. Of course, I am not particularly a fan of the NFB at all. 
  > Saying that, NFB has made some seriously inaccurate statements as well, 
  > far outweighing mine. NFB actually has no reason to sue Apple. What would 
  > they sue them for, exactly? Because their products are accessible, and 
  > they want everyone to pay more than what a Macbook costs for assistive 
  > technology? That wouldn't actually surprise me much. It's all about 
  > competition. If they think they're about to be kicked out, of course they 
  > would consider Apple a threat. Because Apple has done something Microsoft 
  > has not. All these things sound really twisted and disgusting to me.
  >
  > Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to do with 
  > iTunes on the Windows side. Fair enough, but that is a pretty ridiculous 
  > suit if it really is based on accessibility. That is not the case, 
  > however, as there are plenty of other useful programs for PCs that are not 
  > anywhere near as accessible as iTunes 9. And NFB doesn't care about that. 
  > Which, again, leads me to believe that, because NFB is scared of being 
  > kicked out, they do everything they can to stop people buying their 
  > product. That would make sense.
  >
  > Windows users rely on scripts all the time to use any application. I 
  > suggest you look through your jAWS folder to see what I mean. Have you 
  > even seen just the download size of a JAWS installation? It's outrageous. 
  > People who moan about iTunes not being accessible just because the 
  > interface accidentally broke, just need to use scripts like they do for 
  > everything else. I'm surprised that wasn't their first complaint. JAWS, or 
  > just Windows in general, isn't even that stable. If JAWS crashes, it's 
  > stupidly difficult most of the time to reload the product. Even if you 
  > manage to do so, you will probably run into the screen not being read 
  > correctly when reading list boxes or with the cursor. Or, the worst-case 
  > scenario. You have to uninstall JAWS 11 after attempting to install Video 
  > Intercept, reinstall JAWS 10, install VIdeo Intercept, uninstall JAWS 10 
  > then reinstall JAWS 11.
  >
  > Maybe I'm slamming the NFB a bit, but really, they need a kick in the ass. 
  > I'm just happy the Danish blindness organizations are not this corrupt and 
  > twisted, and they actually review fairly and take a proper look at what a 
  > company offers before suing them. I'll always be negative about the NFB, 
  > though I am actually being neutral when talking about the actual lawsuit 
  > itself.
  >
  > Say what you want to, it won't change my mind. Even if it is someone from 
  > NFB saying it. Some NFB people are great. Some do incredibly good reviews. 
  > Some don't. And in whole, I think the organization just sucks for filing 
  > unnecessary lawsuits for nothing. Maybe I'm going on a childish tantrum 
  > here, perhaps. But once in a while, you need to. A company is trying to 
  > provide great accessibility for their pro

Re: What do you think?

[marie Howarth]

That's great news Carolyn. Let us know how it goes for you. :)

On 15 Apr 2010, at 15:15, Carolyn wrote:

> Hey I just gotta chime in here.  I live in Denver.  I'm having difficulty 
> making the jump to my Mac.  I've called everywhere I can in Denver, looking 
> for someone, anyone to give me the jump start/kick in the rear to really make 
> this move from PC to Mac happen.  Guess who has offered the tutoring I need? 
> ... no, not the NFB, Not Rehab, but Apple itself with a voice-over trained 
> staffer.  I'm starting next week!
>  
> Carolyn
> - Original Message -
> From: Cody
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 1:36 AM
> Subject: Re: What do you think?
> 
> Takes a deep breath.
> 
> Oh yeah, like the damn nfb cares. if they cared so much, then why don't 
> training centers demo macs.
> 
> It's call money. I hate the * nfb.
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Anne Robertson" 
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 3:30 AM
> Subject: Re: What do you think?
> 
> 
> Hello Nic,
> 
> Thank you for this post. You've just saved me from going on a major rant 
> along the same lines.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Anne
> 
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> > I seriously doubt that is the case. Apple accessibility has been around 
> > for six years now, not three. I doubt NFB had anything to do with it. 
> > Apple is going to keep it up because they are committed. The article about 
> > the lawsuit doesn't actually mention Apple much.
> >
> > There is actually a very good point of view. Apple poses a threat to the 
> > NFB of taking over the technical market. This is why NFB did not sue 
> > Skype, but Apple. Agreement or not, I'm pretty sure they listened to users 
> > using Outspoken and such, rather than an organization that can't even 
> > review the product properly when it is out. Apple has done far more than 
> > anyone for accessibility improvements. Apple said they had something in 
> > store, and they sure did. I of course realize that it is a pretty serious 
> > statement. Of course, I am not particularly a fan of the NFB at all. 
> > Saying that, NFB has made some seriously inaccurate statements as well, 
> > far outweighing mine. NFB actually has no reason to sue Apple. What would 
> > they sue them for, exactly? Because their products are accessible, and 
> > they want everyone to pay more than what a Macbook costs for assistive 
> > technology? That wouldn't actually surprise me much. It's all about 
> > competition. If they think they're about to be kicked out, of course they 
> > would consider Apple a threat. Because Apple has done something Microsoft 
> > has not. All these things sound really twisted and disgusting to me.
> >
> > Apple can hardly be sued for their effort. Their lawsuit had to do with 
> > iTunes on the Windows side. Fair enough, but that is a pretty ridiculous 
> > suit if it really is based on accessibility. That is not the case, 
> > however, as there are plenty of other useful programs for PCs that are not 
> > anywhere near as accessible as iTunes 9. And NFB doesn't care about that. 
> > Which, again, leads me to believe that, because NFB is scared of being 
> > kicked out, they do everything they can to stop people buying their 
> > product. That would make sense.
> >
> > Windows users rely on scripts all the time to use any application. I 
> > suggest you look through your jAWS folder to see what I mean. Have you 
> > even seen just the download size of a JAWS installation? It's outrageous. 
> > People who moan about iTunes not being accessible just because the 
> > interface accidentally broke, just need to use scripts like they do for 
> > everything else. I'm surprised that wasn't their first complaint. JAWS, or 
> > just Windows in general, isn't even that stable. If JAWS crashes, it's 
> > stupidly difficult most of the time to reload the product. Even if you 
> > manage to do so, you will probably run into the screen not being read 
> > correctly when reading list boxes or with the cursor. Or, the worst-case 
> > scenario. You have to uninstall JAWS 11 after attempting to install Video 
> > Intercept, reinstall JAWS 10, install VIdeo Intercept, uninstall JAWS 10 
> > then reinstall JAWS 11.
> >
> > Maybe I'm slamming the NFB a bit, but really, they need a kick in the ass. 
> > I'm just happy the Danish blindness organizations are not this corrupt and 
> > twisted, and they actually review fairly and take a proper look at what a 
> > company offers before suing them. I'll always be negative about the NFB, 
> > though I am actually being neutral when talking about the actual lawsuit 
> > itself.
> >
> > Say what you want to, it won't change my mind. Even if it is someone from 
> > NFB saying it. Some NFB people are great. Some do incredibly good reviews. 
> > Some don't. And in whole, I think the organization just sucks for filing 
> > unnecessary lawsuits for nothing. Maybe I'm going on a c

Re: What do you think?

[Chantel Cuddemi]

I think Apple will keep up with the accessibility after the three year term is 
up. 

NFB is all about suing companies just because they're not meeting up to their 
standard of accessibility for the blind fast enough. 

Sorry, but that's how I am feeling. 
On Apr 15, 2010, at 2:08 AM, Rob Lambert wrote:

> I just got wind, from a friend of mine, that the only reason Apple is 
> accessible to us is because of a lawsuit by the NFB. The term of the 
> agreement was for accessibility improvements for three years. Here's a 
> question. First, what's your side of this ordeal? Second, who thinks Apple 
> will keep up with the accessibility improvements after this three year term 
> is up? I apologize for making smooth waters mirky, I just wanted to know what 
> your take on this was. 
> 
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burning iso files

[chad baker]

Hi how do you burn iso files?
Can i use disk utility to do it?
I see a button that says burn image.
Not sure i am new at the mac.

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what I think

[Ray Foret jr]

  While I don't blame people here for criticizing the NFB for its initially bad 
review of Apple's Voice OVer, (a criticism with which I myself agree), I must 
say quite frankly that I do not appreciate continued criticism of the NFB after 
they've made a good effort in the December 2009 "Braille, monitor" to correct 
many of their initially incorrect statements.  Besides, that's not why I joined 
this list.  It appears that some of you want to criticize the NFB for an 
initially bad review of Voice Over; but, not acknowledge when they admit they 
made quite a few substantial mistakes and openly apologized for them in the 
Monitor.  IF you make a mistake, you've got to be willing to own up that you've 
made it and try to make good what corrections you need to.  No.  The NFB is not 
perfect; but then again, who is?  Apple?  No.  Microsoft?  No.  Me?  No.  You?  
no.  Look y'all, they made a very big set of mistakes in their June review.  
Only a fool would deny that.  but, let me remind all of y'all here that in the 
December update, they did correct many of their earlier statements.  Okay.  
Maybe not all of them, but, enough of them so that I think they deserve credit 
for having owned up to when they were wrong.  But, seems to me like some of 
y'all can't stand to acknowledge that they did make an effort to clean up the 
mess they made.  If that's what this list is going to turn in to, I'm out o' 
here!!!  But, I'd rather think, (at least for the moment), that most of the 
people on this list are better than that.  I'm not saying y'all all have to 
become fans of the NFB.  All I'm saying is lay off.  They did wrong, and, they 
apologized for and made an effort to correct that wrong.  To me, when you 
commit a wrong very publicly, (as in the June "Braille Monitor"), and then you 
just as publicly apologize for it and make efforts to correct it, (as in the 
December "Braille Monitor"), you've got to frankly acknowledge that fact; and, 
whether you like it or not, they did!!!  Let's remember that shall we?

Sincerely,
The Constantly Barefooted Ray!

Now A Proud Mac User!!!

E-Mail:
rforetjr at comcast dot net

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changing bit rate when extracting with i-tunes

[Lyn & Twinny]

Hi everyone,

I have a quick question if anyone could clear things up for me here.  I am 
having problems changing the bit rate in I-tunes.  I would like to rip my CD's 
at 320 KBPS but whenever I set that option i n I-tunes, the settings never take 
effect after applying the changes.  What am I doing wrong here?  I managed to 
set i-tunes to rip at 192 KBPS but why can-t I rip at 320?  There must be 
something that I am doing wrong here and for the life of me can't figure out 
what it is.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Lyn & Twinny

***
MSN and Email=
lyn.bordeau...@gmail.com
skype=
keanemaniac
klango :
keanemaniac
facebook
www.facebook.com/Lyn.bordeaux33
(Please say who you are and where you got my info if asking to share details, 
thank you)

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Re: what I think

[Nicolai Svendsen]

Hi,

I'm not trying to attack the NFB. But to me, I absolutely hate inaccuracy.

At least they let the rebuttal be posted. Hopefully, that has changed quite a 
few things. That does not make me like that organization any better, though at 
least, they finally, despite it taking half a year, stood up and took 
responsibility for it. Which I suppose is a good thing.

Regards,
Nic
Skype: Kvalme
MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk
AIM: cincinster
yahoo Messenger: cin368
Facebook Profile
My Twitter

On Apr 15, 2010, at 4:47 PM, Ray Foret jr wrote:

> 
>  While I don't blame people here for criticizing the NFB for its initially 
> bad review of Apple's Voice OVer, (a criticism with which I myself agree), I 
> must say quite frankly that I do not appreciate continued criticism of the 
> NFB after they've made a good effort in the December 2009 "Braille, monitor" 
> to correct many of their initially incorrect statements.  Besides, that's not 
> why I joined this list.  It appears that some of you want to criticize the 
> NFB for an initially bad review of Voice Over; but, not acknowledge when they 
> admit they made quite a few substantial mistakes and openly apologized for 
> them in the Monitor.  IF you make a mistake, you've got to be willing to own 
> up that you've made it and try to make good what corrections you need to.  
> No.  The NFB is not perfect; but then again, who is?  Apple?  No.  Microsoft? 
>  No.  Me?  No.  You?  no.  Look y'all, they made a very big set of mistakes 
> in their June review.  Only a fool would deny that.  but, let me remind all 
> of y'all here that in the December update, they did correct many of their 
> earlier statements.  Okay.  Maybe not all of them, but, enough of them so 
> that I think they deserve credit for having owned up to when they were wrong. 
>  But, seems to me like some of y'all can't stand to acknowledge that they did 
> make an effort to clean up the mess they made.  If that's what this list is 
> going to turn in to, I'm out o' here!!!  But, I'd rather think, (at least for 
> the moment), that most of the people on this list are better than that.  I'm 
> not saying y'all all have to become fans of the NFB.  All I'm saying is lay 
> off.  They did wrong, and, they apologized for and made an effort to correct 
> that wrong.  To me, when you commit a wrong very publicly, (as in the June 
> "Braille Monitor"), and then you just as publicly apologize for it and make 
> efforts to correct it, (as in the December "Braille Monitor"), you've got to 
> frankly acknowledge that fact; and, whether you like it or not, they did!!!  
> Let's remember that shall we?
> 
> Sincerely,
> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!
> 
> Now A Proud Mac User!!!
> 
> E-Mail:
> rforetjr at comcast dot net
> 
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> 

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