Re: gfreeamp playlist inquiry
On Sun, Oct 24, 2004 at 11:35:19AM +0200, Ulrich Eckhardt wrote: > On Saturday 23 October 2004 05:42, Kevin Mark wrote: > > Your ability to > > ask for features in the software programs that you use is one of the > > advantages of libre/free software. > > Errm, can't you do so with any piece of software out there? The advantage of > free software is that you can do it yourself (or hire someone), not just the > original author. > > I agree that it's more fun with free software though. :) > > Uli > Hi Uli, when was the last time adobe or M$ listen to a users request? how does a user add a feature to photoshop? I said 'asking for a feature' was ONE advantage. another is fixing it yourself, as you said. -Kev -- (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
what is /var/backup for?
Hi DD folks, just a simple question. Is there a policy for /var/backup and what is it for or how should it be used? If there is a URL, google didnt show anything. TIA -Kev -- (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
any comments on diagram?
Hi DD folks, i made a diagram in xfig of what I think is the debian development model. Could folks give me a few comments on what's not correct. http://kmark.home.pipeline.com/debian.png TIA -Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: any comments on diagram?
On Tue, Nov 09, 2004 at 09:55:45PM +0100, Sven Mueller wrote: > Kevin Mark [u] wrote on 09/11/2004 18:29: > > >i made a diagram in xfig of what I think is the debian development > >model. Could folks give me a few comments on what's not correct. > >http://kmark.home.pipeline.com/debian.png > > AFAICT from my limited debian expertise ;-), there is at least one > mistake in that diagram: thanks Sven, I've added your suggetions. Hope it is closer to the 'real' debian! -Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 07:57:56PM +0100, Milan P. Stanic wrote: > On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 06:17:37PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: > > However, I'd be *highly* agitated if someone gave my daughter a > > CD-ROM with *any* nudy cartoons. > > I'd rather live with this risk than with less freedom. only in a free society can we have this debate. If there exists societies that limit peoples freedom, why should we strive to limit peoples freedom. If the Debian project contains things are forbidden in other societies because they are less free, then we should be the example. -Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 10:04:15PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: > Russell Coker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > I think that the best solution to many of the worlds problems would be to > > provide really cheap laptops and good net access (including satellite net > > access). The idea is that everyone in the world should be able to download > > whatever they like (with a few exceptions such as child porn). > > It's a great idea, and I hope it would work. But I'm wary of such > technological determinism. In Europe, cheap printing led to a million > presses printing sheets of whatever, with the result that there was a > sudden huge broadening in thought, bringing in its wake the > Refomation, the Enlightenment, and all kinds of good things to follow. > > In China, the result of the very same technology was the exact > opposite; it provided the ability to mass-produce official versions of > classic texts, to centralize the imperial bureaucracy more > effectively, and so forth. > > Thomas Hi Thomas, the freedom of the press means that the people control the press. if the goverment control the press, then there is no such freedom. -Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 01:45:25AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 07:53:41 +0100, Christian Perrier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > said: > > > Quoting Fernanda Giroleti Weiden ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): > >> Hi all, I read all the thread and I noted you are forgeting a main > >> problem about this package. In my point of view: > >> > >> First of all, it's a sexist package, sure. Putting a program on > >> Debian in which you have pictures of nude women is VERY agressive > >> to the most women. Yes, it's agressive to me. > > > As already written in -women, this is the point which saddens me the > > most in this thread. I'm really disappointed by seeing most > > contributors just not realize why this package, as proposed, is > > likely to hurt the feelings of several women (probably not all, I > > don't know) as well as, indirectly or not, some men. > > Packages can hurt feelings, yes. vi hurts mine. The bible > hurts other peoples. purity-off also hurt a lot of peoples > feelings. Can't please everyone. There are over 15k packages in > debian. Some of them surely hurt the sensibilities of a lot of > people. > > Get over it. I have had to. Hi Manoj, How would a bug report about 'this packages offends me because of $SOME_REASON' be handled?' about say vi? - -Kev - -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBruSYRp+kG4Nu//URAse4AJ92DQOYKAwD8gs9spFqpj6YLw+0dgCgjaqW r4ttI1CkaurrDqt1VMvhrTc= =njei -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 02:36:56AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: > On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 01:54 -0500, Kevin Mark wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 07:57:56PM +0100, Milan P. Stanic wrote: > > > On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 06:17:37PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: > > > > However, I'd be *highly* agitated if someone gave my daughter a > > > > CD-ROM with *any* nudy cartoons. > > > > > > I'd rather live with this risk than with less freedom. > > > > only in a free society can we have this debate. If there exists > > societies that limit peoples freedom, why should we strive to limit > > peoples freedom. If the Debian project contains things are forbidden > > in other societies because they are less free, then we should be the > > example. > > Yes, but Debian can't be an example to them if they don't have > it in the 1st place. > Hi Ron, I have no objection to yet another CDD ... debian-buddist,debian-islamic,... All someone has to do is create the appropriate meta-package or jigdo text. Something like this would take little effort by the folks involved. kind of remnds me of something I heard about walmart on PBS. They have 'clean' versions of pop music created for their monoply^H^H^H^H^HStores. - -Kev - -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBrucURp+kG4Nu//URAqR6AJ9BBNpWVP9k2RDuDVl9n8i645If+ACdF7Lu YxdMs+M5YIKk6kVm+Qh4a6E= =gARc -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 12:04:06PM +0100, Adrian 'Dagurashibanipal' von Bidder wrote: > On Thursday 02 December 2004 10.36, Kevin Mark wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 10:04:15PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: > > > > In Europe, cheap printing led to [...] a > > > sudden huge broadening in thought [...] > > > > > > In China, the result of the very same technology was the exact > > > opposite; [...] centralize the imperial bureaucracy more > > > effectively, and so forth. > > > the freedom of the press means that the people control the press. > > if the goverment control the press, then there is no such freedom. > > Your point being? > -- vbi > Hi vbi, TB said that cheap technology was used to promote democracy in Europe but was used to the opposite effect in China. But the point I was making was that price of the technology makes no difference if it is solely in the hands of the government. - -Kev - -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBrvlFRp+kG4Nu//URAmfjAJ9Dd23XzYXSvi8ZrX7frPfW0byUHwCglOE5 uJZM/XKWfXmEstlkXnhbdeY= =cqoW -END PGP SIGNATURE-
package rejection
Hi fellow debianista, the package in question has not yet been accepted. For a pacakge to be accepted, here is conditions some have mentioned: 1) dfsg-free 2) can not be sexist 3) has to be able to be mirrored by all mirrors based on the laws of the location of the server 4) can not offend someone's religion 5) must be able to be installed by minors 6) can not be off-color sexually or culturally 7) must be able to be included on cd#1 8) must be able to be included on dvd#1 9) must be able to be included on any cd/dvd does it have to pass all of these, all the time? does it have to pass different condition for the cd's that people distribute? ie. would it be ok to force its exclusion on cd#1 but include it on one/all debian mirrors? what about different mirror and cd creation rules? also, does anyone know of any other packages that never got in and the reasons? -kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Questionable image process. Was: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- (abusive?) erotic images in Debian
On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 05:19:44PM -0800, Bruce Perens wrote: > Ron Johnson wrote: > > >Would country/region-specific jigdo files be a reasonable > >solution? > > > > > I don't think we've enumerated all of the data paths that can generate > problems. I guess jigdo means the general category of CDs. To that I > would add the package list presented by the various apt frontends. One > should have to take some deliberate action before seeing those files. > This might be choosing an appropriately marked Jigdo file, or adding a > package repository. > >Thanks > >Bruce > I had suggested that each mirror make a list of packages to exclude and that list would be maintainted by each mirror operator. And also make a jigdo file (which is used to make cd's for installation), so that when people want to make distributable cd's of debian, that they have a setup file for each country ( or jurisdiction ??). if it is excluded on (say) cd#1 but is on all mirrors, is this a better situation? Either 'software' (new SC) goes into debian, no special fanfaire, or it is excluded because of current/proposed policy. If GDFL software is being removed, post-sarge, why not make this situation clear and do the same for purity,bible-kjv or anything else. We cant exclude an erotic image in this package and keep other ones that contain worse just because of historical reasons. -Kev -- (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 10:07:59PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: > Bruce Perens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > It shows that sexual harassment in the workplace is one of their big > > concerns. And rightly so. Awards have been as large as $30 > > Million. And it embarasses the institution, which creates all sorts of > > havoc by driving people and even financial donors away. > > Yes, but the question is what is the *environment*; it is not clear > that idle bits on a disk change the *environment*. > > Good grief, this is one of the murkiest areas of American law, and you > think that anyone should be convinced of your FUD this way? > > I'm hardly impressed. If you really believe this is a concern, or > others do, you are welcome to get competent legal advice, though at > this point I would be inclined to doubt any advice from a lawyer you > selected. Still, your amateur's guess at what would or would not run > afoul of this extremely complex area of law is no help whatsoever. > > > The U. would err on the side of caution given the potential danger. > > This is hardly true; most American universities (lamentably not all) > for example have decided that censoring students is not in their job > description, and that university employees cannot claim a hostile > working environment on the basis of what students have said or done. > > Likewise, if a given image, residing in the Debian archive, is nearly > unknown to members of the university, and the only people who know > about it have deliberately sought it out, then it is extremely > unlikely that anyone would find it to be creating a hostile > environment. It is analogous to a copy of Playboy hidden in a drawer > somewhere, which is not actionable in the least. Oh, except that > Playboy contains actual photographs, which hot-babe does not. Hi all, from another mailing list, someone noted that playboy.com mirrors some FLOSS as they use it. They would have no problem hosting debian.playboy.com. And why not see if they could assist us in our quest to determine what legal issues are involved? If they have no stake in 'debian (now with porn)' (just joking!--really), who would? =Kev > > And this isn't even Debian's concern; each mirror must decide its own > policies, and we cannot hope to decide that Debian must conform to > whatever self-censorship private entities choose to apply to > themselves. > > Nor is *any* of this relevant to debian-devel. Please take it to an > appropriate forum. > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] - -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBtAJ8Rp+kG4Nu//URApvRAJ9Uk0Bt4rzwqlTn8WN4GdIoqbKMmACdFelG QAkdj7SginGGF4tI7ap2RgM= =+OFA -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 12:24:19AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: > On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 22:08 -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: > > Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > > > A legal opinion on this matter would be a good idea... > > > > Keep in mind that Debian is not the U in question; Debian has no > > obligation to conform to some U's self-censorship policies. > > That's true. Debian doesn't *have* to be mirrored *anywhere*. > Hi all. if someone in $VERY_RESTRICTED_COUNTRY downloads it from $FREE_COUNTRY, is debian still liable? If this is the case, then any 'problem' packages can not be in anyway associated with debian. - -kev - -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBtASGRp+kG4Nu//URArrcAJ4wyPn6OkQ3g5s4ZFWFIxSDz5LKkwCdE7K1 b1FtwmcqAj9Zo20CBfPn21s= =p130 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: package rejection
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 06:51:23PM +1100, Russell Coker wrote: > On Friday 03 December 2004 16:19, Kevin Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > 2) can not be sexist > > Bad idea. We should avoid subjective criteria. > > > 3) has to be able to be mirrored by all mirrors based on the laws of the > > location of the server > > Bad idea. Some countries have stupid laws and we should not pander to them. > There are laws against encryption and against reverse engineering (which > could get strace, ltrace, and gdb). > > > 4) can not offend someone's religion > > Even if they are of the church of emacs? > > > 5) must be able to be installed by minors > > What age is a "minor"? What things is a minor not permitted to see? That > seems more of an issue for their parents to determine rather than Debian. > > > 6) can not be off-color sexually or culturally > > Again it's a subjective criteria. > > > does it have to pass all of these, all the time? > > How about you go off and create a distribution that panders to all the silly > ideas. The rest of us will keep making Debian usable. > > A distribution with no crypto, no debugging tools, and nothing that might > possibly offend (think about "killing child processes", the "mount" command, > etc) is not going to be of much use to anyone. > Hi Russell, /I/ have no objection to the package. I was wondering if anything in policy dictates anything. Someone said 'ask the ftp masters'. Well do they follow any policy? Does Debian --in anyway-- try to help people from being sued? Should it? Like 'approved' mirror lists maintaied by mirror and or the related hosting co's -- so they cant be sued? All that needs to is SOME process to clear the air of all the FUD and ultra-liberal or ultra-conservative talk. - -kev - -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBtB0LRp+kG4Nu//URAnu6AJ0VpZ1fEHtj8/e92ZNpximDc7TKRQCfS3EZ +LZzfNTGfjB2heLXl15zXxA= =Jnjr -END PGP SIGNATURE-
updated debian development diagram -- comments?
Hi Folks, I have updated my diagram on the debian developement model. Any comments appreciated! Also, the source is *.fig. Can anyone point to a similar .deb of a graphic document so that I can see what documents a graphics file needs so that I can make a GPL & DFSG compliant package. I exported it to png from fig. So the binary file (png) is derived from a source file(fig). Would it be differnt to make a .deb of the png vs the fig? Or would I be expected to include the binary image and source in a single package? The new pic: http://kmark.home.pipeline.com/debian.png The old pic: http://kmark.home.pipeline.com/debian.1.png -Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: updated debian development diagram -- comments?
On Mon, Jan 03, 2005 at 08:47:02AM +0100, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote: > * Kevin Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > Hi Folks, > > I have updated my diagram on the debian developement model. Any comments > > appreciated! > > It's "volatile", not "volitile" > -- > Ralf Hildebrandt (i.A. des IT-Zentrum) [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Charite - Universitätsmedizin BerlinTel. +49 (0)30-450 570-155 > Gemeinsame Einrichtung von FU- und HU-BerlinFax. +49 (0)30-450 570-962 > IT-Zentrum Standort CBF send no mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Ralf, thanks. forgot that non-binary file formats allow you to use ispell! -Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: RFS tag?
On Wed, Jan 05, 2005 at 01:30:21PM +0100, Nico Golde wrote: > hi, > * Frederik Dannemare <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005-01-05 12:43]: > > On Wednesday 05 January 2005 09:50, Nico Golde wrote: > > > Hi, > > > what about an RFS tag for ITPs or and RFS bug report for > > > wnpp. So debian developers who like to sponsor a package > > > don't have to read debian-mentors. > > > I think it would be a good idea. > > > > As a person looking for sponsors from time to time, I second this. > > thats the best reason i think. there are many people who > sponsor packages which they find accidental because they > don't read -mentors. that would be a good solution. > who is responsible for such things? > regards nico Hi debiandeveloperfolken, this has insired a 'mako'esque idea: Debian package personals: AD#1 says "I have a new VIM extension that does cool new tricks with Clippy(tm), I'm looking for a special someone to sponser VIM-CLIPPYS-RETURN. Email me at [EMAIL PROTECTED]" AD#2 says "I'm a DD looking for some extra packages to add to the VIM collection. If you have the project that sparks my interest, email me at [EMAIL PROTECTED]" Taglike: We get new packages into Debian by bringing people together! -Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: RunDinstallHourly
On Tue, Jan 04, 2005 at 11:16:44PM -0800, Ken Bloom wrote: > On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 18:04:37 -0800, Steve Langasek wrote: > > > On Tue, Jan 04, 2005 at 08:08:47PM -0500, Joey Hess wrote: > >> Ken Bloom wrote: > >> > http://wiki.debian.net/?RunDinstallHourly (part of the > >> > ReleaseProposals topic on wiki.debian.net) discusses the concept of > >> > speeding up the release process by running dinstall hourly instead of > >> > once per day. This seems (to my amateur eyes) like a technically > >> > simple change to make even before we release Sarge (barring any > >> > unforseen consequences). Would it be possible to start testing this > >> > proposal out now by increasing the frequency of dinstall, perhaps to > >> > once every 6 hours until release? > > > >> I've talked about this with James Troup before. He seemed pretty > >> receptive to speeding it up to something like twice a day, didn't seem > >> to feel it would hit the mirrors much worse. It's possible he may still > >> be waiting on SCC splitting up the base set of arches or the like before > >> revisiting this. > > Who's SCC? > > If there's no technical *requirement* for this to happen first, we should > go ahead with speeding up this up, precisely because it's such a good time > to test its effects, both positive and negative. (Positive effects > won't be so noticable right after Sarge releases) I'm assuming it would be > a really easy change to revert if it has negative effects. > > >> (BTW, please note that when I or this proposal talks about the "dinstall > >> run", we're using the circa 1998 definition that includes "mirror sync". > >> The dinstall program itself aready runs every 15 minutes.) > > > > Twice daily seems more reasonable to me than hourly; > > Why? If you run it only twice daily, then the developers who are awake at > one run will probably be asleep at the next, so there's still essentially > a whole day's lapse before a developer can fix anything. I'd say a minimum > of 4 times a day lets a developer see the result of his changes before the > next time he goes to sleep. But the attraction of hourly is that a > developer can see feedback from his changes within a couple of hours, and > a developer may be able to clean up any bugs people noticed in the same > sitting that he introduced them. > Hi folks, just a question from john q. hacker: is the files associated with a project have not been changed since the last run, why is the process repeated? Could someone make the process run when the files are changed? I'm thinking of an event-based approach. -Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: updated debian development diagram -- comments?
On Thu, Jan 06, 2005 at 01:56:13AM +0100, Alexander Schmehl wrote: > Hi Kevin! > > * Kevin Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [050103 07:08]: > > > I have updated my diagram on the debian developement model. Any comments > > appreciated! > > What is the target group of your diagramm? Hi Alexander, I wanted to visualize the deb lifecycle for my understanding of 'the debian way'. So I was the 'target'. I asked for comments here and there to fill in missing bits. And once I did it, I thought others may want to see it to see if it helped them see how Debian works. > Since I don't think people > without deeper knowledge of Debian will find your diagram easy to > understand because, partly because of the akronyms, partly because you > try to explain everything at once. Should I make a 2nd page of explanations? Should I include a small key for a few acronyms? > > It's much information on a small page, you know? A picture is worth a 1K words. no? > > I know, this critic lags of any hints howto do it better, but I don't > have any, sorry. > > > Yours sincerely, > Alexander Thanks, Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: updated debian development diagram -- comments?
On Wed, Jan 05, 2005 at 01:38:46PM -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote: > Kevin Mark dijo [Mon, Jan 03, 2005 at 01:08:49AM -0500]: > > Hi Folks, > > I have updated my diagram on the debian developement model. Any comments > > appreciated! > > Very nice! I expect to use it at some conferences (BTW: Looks like a > nice addition to Debian Eyecatcher[1], I'll add it :) ) > > I'd suggest you (although I don't know .fig, so...) to try to make the > labels on the arrows be horizontal - Specially the ones on the left, > going from "Security team .deb" to testing and stable "security > updates", as it's easy to mis-read "upload" as "paoidn". > > Greetings! > Hi Gunnar, Gracias por las palabras! -Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: updated debian development diagram -- comments?
On Fri, Jan 07, 2005 at 07:52:22PM +0100, Alexander Schmehl wrote: > * Alexander Schmehl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [050107 19:46]: > > > Yes, a legend for the acronyms would be fine. > > Oh, I just saw, that your diagramm has a legend. I'm wondering, why I > didn't noticed it the other day.. > > > Yours sincerely, > Alexander > Hi Alexander, ... I read your suggestion and added one! -Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: updated debian development diagram -- comments?
On Fri, Jan 07, 2005 at 05:14:56PM -0200, Otavio Salvador wrote: > || On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 01:08:49 -0500 > || Kevin Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > km> Hi Folks, > km> I have updated my diagram on the debian developement model. Any comments > km> appreciated! > > IMHO have one wrong information on that. When the package go to > experimental, it comes from DD .deb like when it go to unstable and > not from debian source. One of interpretions are wrong. The unstable > interpretion (Debian source -> DD .deb -> unstable ) looks ok to me. I > propse to change (Debian source -> DD .deb -> (experimental || unstable)) > > -- > O T A V I OS A L V A D O R Grasias Otavio. -Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: updated debian development diagram -- comments?
On Sun, Jan 09, 2005 at 10:47:50AM -0200, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote: > On Sun, 09 Jan 2005, Holger Levsen wrote: > > unstable is described as suited for "...laptops and desktops on > > non-critical > > systems..." > > testing is described as "... can be used for desktop systems that need more > > stability..." > > > > I think this both is wrong. Unstable and testing should not be described as > > suited for desktops - they are development branches of debian, which are > > likely to break, which break and... so on. Most of you know :) > > Agreed. Unstable is recommended only for people that "know what they are > doing". Certainly not for desktop usage, or anything like that. > > As for "testing", well, that one can be recommended to users that need a > very up-to-date system but who can tolerate the lack of speedy security > updates... AND who know how to deal with ocasional breakage (yes, sometimes > it happens even in testing). > > > good ol' "debian releases to seldom" argument...) - but as said I don't > > think > > Debian should propagate this misconcepts. > > Agreed. > Hi Henrique and Holger, thanks for pointing out those points in the wording. I have removed those because they are not in agreement with Debian's position. I added (hopefully) more informative comments. -Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: scripts to download porn in Debian?
On Wed, Feb 02, 2005 at 06:46:03PM -0700, Joel Aelwyn wrote: > On Wed, Feb 02, 2005 at 10:17:07PM +0100, Michelle Konzack wrote: > > Am 2005-02-03 03:15:41, schrieb Sam Watkins: > > > > > 1. People (including children) will get a nasty surprise when they > > >choose to download all the comics to see what is available. > > > > My daughter had this problem several times... > > *looks innocent* > > Say, whatever happened to debian-junior? Isn't that the sub-project that > was for exactly this sort of concern? > -- > Joel Aelwyn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ,''`. > : :' : > `. `' >`- Hi Joel, there is also something being worked on called debtags. debian-junior is conglomerate of packages to install but does not address the desire to install stuff after 'debian-junior' is installed. This is where debtags might come in. Maybe dpkg could be made debtags aware. with an /etc/dpkg-debtags.conf with an option like 'DONTINSTALL=religious,adult,offensive' just a thought. -Kev Ps. besides debian-junior, I and others thought of debian-muslim, debian-christian,debian-german,debian-italian as other meta-packages to address similar ideas. -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: RFC: graph of Debian package cycle
Hi Martin, On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 04:47:27PM +0100, martin f krafft wrote: > Based on the work of Kevin Mark (URL not available, sorry), I have http://kmark.home.pipeline.com/debian.png http://kmark.home.pipeline.com/debian.fig > made a graph of the life cycle of a Debian package for inclusion in > my forthcoming book (http://debianbook.info). You can find the > sources and generated files at > > http://people.debian.org/~madduck/graphs/package-cycle/en/ > > Additional information is available at > > http://people.debian.org/~madduck/graphs/package-cycle/ABOUT > > The graph is herewith released under the Artistic Licence. Thanks > to Goswin Brederlow, Bernhard Link, and Kenshi Muto, as well as > Kevin Mark, Sven Müller, and Martin Schulze for the original work. > > Please send any comments or corrections my way. hmm! I think I will try to update mine! cheers, -Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: RFC: graph of Debian package cycle
On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 07:08:49PM +0100, Florian Weimer wrote: > * martin f. krafft: > > > Based on the work of Kevin Mark (URL not available, sorry), I have > > made a graph of the life cycle of a Debian package for inclusion in > > my forthcoming book (http://debianbook.info). You can find the > > sources and generated files at > > > > http://people.debian.org/~madduck/graphs/package-cycle/en/ > > Interesting, thanks. I believe the --->O arrays are confusingly > labled. "package installation" is probably a better choice. The > difference between "package propagation" and "package upload" is not > clear, at least to me. Hi Florian, I think 'package propagation' is machine initiated (via tags) and 'package upload' is human initiated. > > I suppose you should split the diagram in two because the > before-incoming part and the after-incoming part are not too strongly > connected, and the result would be more readable. > This is something about which I will think. -Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
all new Debian diagram - now with less chaos!
Hi debianista, after my initial work on a diagram, and the comments and the work of madduck, I had some time to redo my diagram to produce a totally new concept. any comment appreciated. http://kmark.home.pipeline.com/newdebian.png http://kmark.home.pipeline.com/newdebian.dia cherio, Kev ps. at this point I left out any mention of the security infrastructure as I dont have a complete picture of it, yet. pps. thanks madduck for your diagram as it gave me something with which to compare. -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: all new Debian diagram - now with less chaos!
On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 10:29:37AM +0100, David Schmitt wrote: > Hi Kev, list! > > On Tuesday 15 February 2005 08:27, Kevin Mark wrote: > > after my initial work on a diagram, and the comments and the work of > > madduck, I had some time to redo my diagram to produce a totally new > > concept. any comment appreciated. > > Really nice and clean. Great to see such fundamental processes documented > properly! Some things though, perhaps someone can help me out here: Thanks! > > * buildd: there is more than one of them and I always thought the results are > checked (and signed) manually by the buildd admins? someone just emailed me about this. > > * propagation from experimental to unstable: I always thought that required a > re-upload? see above. > > * "testing packages propagate to stable" is perhaps better called "release: > testing becomes new-stable"? see above. cheers, Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: all new Debian diagram - now with less chaos!
On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 11:24:18AM +0100, martin f krafft wrote: > Hi Kevin, > > Great work! I am glad to see you got down with dia; I love that > tool. Here are some comments: Its cool that it exports to xfig as a way to use both tools. > > a. I am not sure what the "process realm" is. ACK. renamed it. > b. Developers do not tag bugs, they sign packages. Is that what you >meant? Also, note that at the moment, most only sign source >packages and binary uploads, not the binary packages themselves. NACK. you lost me. this is a gap in my knowlege. differentiate source package, binary upload, and binary package. where do they go? what do developers do? who creates source package, binary uploads and binary pacakges? > c. Upstream is not really a repository, is it? ACK. changed it. > d. I am missing the link between buildd and unstable. They get the >orig.tar.gz from unstable for any uploads in incoming that do >not include the tarball. > e. I think it's "M. Schulze", not Shultze. ACK. > f. Sven's name has an Umlaut; here, to cut-n-paste: Müller ACK. I still dont know how to fiddle with keymaps, input methods or such things to get these! > g. "users processes" should be "users' processes", though I think >you may want to use another word. Like plain "users" or "user >systems" may be better. ACK. > h. There are more rules as to when packages migrate from unstable to >testing. ACK. I'm not familar with all possibilities and also not sure how much space it would take to include it. maybe a 'subprocess' box? > i. You use both meanings of "priority" (changelog and control) >without making it clear which one is meant. NACK. I only used this word once in referense to high, medium, low migration of packages from unstable to testing. > j. "updates propagate", not "updates propagates". I know you are >talking about the collection, but it sounds weird. ACK. > > That's it for now. > > To get our graphs onto www.debian.org, I assume we file bugs against > that pseudo-package. there is an existing package that could include these? or to make an ITP? Someone in the 'eyecatcher' project said these may be helpful. > Let me know when you are ready, then we can > submit one bug report together. > Cool! Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: all new Debian diagram - now with less chaos!
On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 01:11:33PM +0100, Frank Küster wrote: > martin f krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > h. There are more rules as to when packages migrate from unstable to > >testing. > > i. You use both meanings of "priority" (changelog and control) > >without making it clear which one is meant. > > Furthermore, for testing propagation i'ts "urgency" that matters, isn't > it? Hi Frank, isnt that addressed by the tag "Urgency: Low|Medium|High"? > > And I've never read "ITO" as a tag for orphaning bug. Either one mails > to -devel (or wherever) saying that they intend to give away or orphan > some packages, but this isn't a bug, just conversation. In the BTS, I > think the tag is simply "O". > so, there is no 'bug' to the bts to orphan a package, simply a note to debian-devel? So folks are expected to troll it to pickup packages? ok. I will change the ITO to 'read about orphanded package on debian-devel'. -Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: all new Debian diagram - now with less chaos!
On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 05:34:38PM -0500, Greg Folkert wrote: > On Tue, 2005-02-15 at 02:27 -0500, Kevin Mark wrote: > > Hi debianista, > > > > after my initial work on a diagram, and the comments and the work of > > madduck, I had some time to redo my diagram to produce a totally new > > concept. any comment appreciated. > > > > http://kmark.home.pipeline.com/newdebian.png > > http://kmark.home.pipeline.com/newdebian.dia > > Not to find fault with something that will clear up much confusion in > the Debian Sphere of Being, but I am wonder where the contributions back > to upstream are in this picture? Hi Greg, in my original diagram (http://kmark.home.pipeline.com/debian.png), I included an indication of that. I will be including it in this one, but have not done so yet. > > Where should it go? I don't know. Debian is one of the largest > contributors to upstream(s), with bug-fixes, feature adds and > improvements in code cleanliness. As well as being upstream for many > things. > > Also, shouldn't it also be noted the distributions that are based on > Debian that give-back to upstream (like Ubuntu and the plugin-dev and > pmount thing). woun't that be out of the scope of my diagram? > Given I don't know if it warrants, as it would be a user > submission with patch to the DBTS. > > Other than that, I think its very good looking, I don't have the > knowledge to judge whether it is accurate of not. > -- thanks for the input. cheers, Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: all new Debian diagram - now with less chaos!
On Wed, Feb 16, 2005 at 07:34:27AM +0100, Adeodato Simó wrote: > * Kevin Mark [Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:09:03 -0500]: > > > > And I've never read "ITO" as a tag for orphaning bug. Either one mails > > > to -devel (or wherever) saying that they intend to give away or orphan > > > some packages, but this isn't a bug, just conversation. In the BTS, I > > > think the tag is simply "O". > > > so, there is no 'bug' to the bts to orphan a package, simply a note to > > debian-devel? So folks are expected to troll it to pickup packages? > > ok. I will change the ITO to 'read about orphanded package on > > debian-devel'. > > Please compare [1], [2], and [3]. Basically: > > 1. maintainer writes -devel > 2. maintainer writes -devel and files RFAs > 3. maintainer submits O: bug against wnnp and CC's -devel > > [1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2005/02/msg00346.html > [2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2005/02/msg00534.html > [3] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2005/02/msg00676.html > > But orphaning bugs can be filed without sending mail to -devel, though > this makes them less effective. > Hi Adeodato, thanks for the info. I tried to add it. although, now I am getting confused about the difference between a debian developer and a debian maintainer. I labeled most items with 'DD' thinking that's who did stuff. More things to research. see you in the funny pages, Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: all new Debian diagram - now with less chaos!
On Wed, Feb 16, 2005 at 08:04:21AM +0100, martin f krafft wrote: Hi Martin, > > source package: dsc + (diff) + orig.tar.gz > binary package: deb > source upload: changes + list of files therein I added some of this to my diagram. not 100% yet. > nah, we turn software into debian packages by debianising them, and > then using dpkg-genchanges to create the changes file. Please read > its manpage, in particular about the -sa, -sd, and -si options to > see which files the changes file will list. > > the upload consists of the source package and the binary package, > unless the debian revision is greater than 1, in which case the > orig.tar.gz file is not included. I added some of this, too. > > > h. There are more rules as to when packages migrate from unstable to > > >testing. > > > > ACK. I'm not familar with all possibilities and also not sure how much > > space it would take to include it. maybe a 'subprocess' box? > > you could just say "meets requirements for testing" > > > To get our graphs onto www.debian.org, I assume we file bugs against > > > that pseudo-package. > > > > there is an existing package that could include these? or to make an > > ITP? > > www.debian.org is a pseudo package: > > http://www.debian.org/Bugs/pseudo-packages I saw this[1]. So the bug would be something like: "www.debian.org: needs development diagram from package life cycle (and oh BTW, I have one here[2] and here[3]!)" [1] http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?pkg=www.debian.org [2] http://kmark.pipeline.com/newdebian.png [2] http://kmark.pipeline.com/newdebian.dia -Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: all new Debian diagram - now with less chaos!
On Wed, Feb 16, 2005 at 10:53:28AM +0100, Frank Küster wrote: > Kevin Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > although, now I am getting confused about the difference between a > > debian developer and a debian maintainer. I labeled most items with 'DD' > > thinking that's who did stuff. More things to research. > > The maintainer is the guy (or entity) who is listed in the Maintainer: > field of debian/control, and who gets all the mail for the package¹. > > A debian developer is anybody with an account @debian.org, who can do > uploads to the archive. A Debian developer need not be the maintainer > of any package (doing mainly QA work, or buildd administration, or > whatever), and a package maintainer need not be a Debian developer: They > can have their packages uploaded by a developer who reviewed the > package, but doesn't want to do all the work. > > Regards, Frank > > > ¹others can subscribe to this, too, via the package tracking system > > -- Hi Frank, I have incorparated your info. In my diagram, most of the tasks are done by maintainers and the buildd stuff would be done by developers. I have not yet added QA, ftpmaster or security stuff. -Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Let's remove mips, mipsel, s390, ...
On Mon, Feb 21, 2005 at 12:33:24AM +0100, Goswin von Brederlow wrote: > Matthew Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > On Sun, Feb 20, 2005 at 10:57:47PM +, Dirk Eddelbuettel wrote: > >> Clint Byrum spamaps.org> writes: > >> > Now, can someone please tell me how messages like the one below, and > >> > others, aren't indicative that debian should drop s390, mipsel, and > >> > maybe hppa from the list of architectures? How about we release for > >> > i386, sparc, and powerpc, and let the others release on their own > >> > schedule? This business of supporting 11 architectures and making sure > >> > they're all 100% right before releasing is just about the worst idea > >> > ever. > >> > >> Still, the hours we maste on fixing, building, maintaining, ... code on > >> unused platforms is hysterical waste of resources. Resources we don't > >> really have. > > > > I'd like to see your numbers on how many manhours have been wasted in the > > past, say, 6 months on fixing code on unused platforms which would have gone > > into other things had those architectures not been in Debian. > > > > - Matt > > Not to mention that i386 is the most non working architecture of them > all when it comes to the buildd and m68k probably the one with the > fastest responce time. > > And how does having gtk not being blocked for a few days by a buildd > get ftp-master to implement t-p-u and testing-security any faster, > which is what we've all been waiting for the last 6+ month. > > Not to mention the number of arm, mips, mipsel, m68k, hppa, alpha, > ia64, s390 developers that would drop away starting their own > distribution depriving Debian of manpower. A lot of bugs are found by > those extra architectures Debian supports and also fixed by their > porters. Nothing better to find bugs than a large variety. Isn't that what ESR said about the bazaar: the more eyes, the faster bugs get squished! In this case, the more arch differences, the more bugs that will be found, too! -Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Let's remove mips, mipsel, s390, ...
On Mon, Feb 21, 2005 at 04:30:27PM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote: > On Mon, Feb 21, 2005 at 03:53:44PM +0100, Goswin von Brederlow wrote: > > Bernd Eckenfels <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > > > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> you wrote: > > >> Hypothetical daily KDE builds would also insanely increase the amount of > > >> network traffic being used by the mirror pulse and people upgrading > > >> their home boxes, so it isn't just a buildd problem. > > > > > > Perhaps it helps, if the buildds for slow systems introduce some delay > > > before startng the build, and not building if another architecture failed > > > at > > > all. That way if a package is often uploaded or hase obvious errors, the > > > build for that is skipped. > > > > What would help save many hours on slow systems is having a script > > automatically set "Dep-Wait: libbfoo (>> 1.2-3)" for all new sources > > according to Build-Depends to prevent useless buildd attempts and > > failures and manual work to retry them. > > > > An attempt to build something big can take 3-4 hours to install > > Build-Depends, see they aren't sufficient and to purge them again. > > s/something big/something with lots of build-dependencies/ > > There are small KDE applications that require most of the KDE dependency > chain to be installed, while on the other hand XFree86's build > dependency list is (relatively) small. would it make sense to examine the queue to see if any packages have similar build dependencies and then move them to the top of the queue so they build immediately after the current one? or to re-sequence the queue to group package with similar build dependencies. -Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: the ongoing xfree86 buildd saga
On Wed, Feb 23, 2005 at 12:35:50PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: > Ingo Juergensmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > On Wed, Feb 23, 2005 at 12:13:42PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: > > > > > Do the buildd people read this list? How do we get this cleaned up? > > > > As far as I can tell you: the m68k buildd people will have noticed that > > problem much earlier than you. > > > > Furthermore, I don't know if that's a problem of the m68k folks, but of that > > XF86 build... there are messages out there that this build (at least on > > i386) is not stripped. No wonder it is way larger than the normal build. > > > > But yes, it's "in" these days to public shout about those slow archs... > > *SIGH* > > I'm not complaining about the slow archs, and the m68k buildd failure > will surely be noticed. It has not, however, been retried. Why? > > I'm asking for *information*. How do I find out what the plans are? > > What about the mips and sparc failures? The buildd logs look like > FTBFS, even though that's not right; do they read this list? How does > one find out? How does one say: "this is blocking my package, can you > give me an estimate on how long it will take?" > > I'm not trying to grind an axe or complain, I'm seeking information > and to move the process along expeditiously because it's blocking a > lot more than just an xfree86 upgrade. > Hi Thomas, it seems odd that the machines that build the packages for the countless hordes have no current way to reach them. If a compromise occured on one of these, how would anyone know? How could they be reached? If all buildd's are now DD, shouldn't they be reachable? cordially, Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
updated package development diagram w/new spanish translation
Hi tired and overworked folks, I recently got some help from a fellow in cuba(Maykel Moya) to translate my diagram into spanish. I have added some bits about the autobuild network but have not reconciled it with my original bits. On the far right is the unincorperated bits. Its now at: http://debian.home.pipeline.com/ newdebian.png,newdebian.dia for english newdebian.es.png,newdebian.es.dia for spanish the spanish version is currently a little less 'aligned' see ya' in the funny pages, Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Sparc build failure analysis (was Re: StrongARM tactics)
On Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 06:53:47AM -0800, Blars Blarson wrote: > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > >On Tue, Dec 06, 2005 at 05:21:46PM -0800, Blars Blarson wrote: > >> I can do the analyzing, but what should I do with the results? > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] seems to be a black hole. You'll need to find > >> someone willing to communicate with access to the buildd queues before > >> the porters can do anything. > > > >I said that deciding which packages should belong in P-a-s is porter work; > >as is filing bugs on failed packages that shouldn't, providing patches, and > >doing porter NMUs if necessary. > > Again: what can I do with such a list? See the list below. > > >If the porters do this effectively, there's really not much need at all for > >telling the buildd maintainers about transient build failures, because > >they'll be pretty obvious (and account for the majority of failures, as it > >should be). > > Just because it is obvious does not mean that the buildd adminstrator > does the correct thing. kq was "uploaded" 51 days ago, trustedqsl was > "uploaded" 25 days ago, neither is in the archive. > > openoffice.org has been "building" for 8 days, it only took 57 hours > on my slower than any current sparc buildd pbuilder. kexi has been > "building" for 6 days, it took less than 2 hours. Hi Blars et al., has anyone every considered a check in the buildd infrastructure to alert someone (buildd admin and/or others) if a build is taking too long (eg openoffice usually takes between 2-3 hours to build and the current build has been building for 10 hours+). Something like a database entry or a database of either previous build times or last build time. As a way to not have a buildd tied up with an obvious build issue and thus allow the issue to be address sooner thus alowing more buildd throughput. I'd help but I have neither the skill nor the access to buildd infrastrure (as I'm not a DD or a buildd admin) but try to give ideas that I feel are helpful. Anyway, hope those buildd (and thier admins) are humming along smoothly! Cheers, Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! `$' $' $ $ _ ,d$$$g$ ,d$$$b. $,d$$$b`$' g$b $,d$$b ,$P' `$ ,$P' `Y$ $$' `$ $ "' `$ $$' `$ $$ $ $$g$ $ $ $ ,$P"" $ $$ `$g. ,$$ `$$._ _. $ _,g$P $ `$b. ,$$ $$ `Y$$P'$. `YP $$$P"' ,$. `Y$$P'$ $. ,$. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Thoughts on Debian quality, including automated testing
On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 03:07:10PM +0100, Adrian von Bidder wrote: > On Wednesday 21 December 2005 12.23, Thomas Hood wrote: > > > I don't think that it is ridiculous to require that every package have a > > team behind it---i.e., at least two maintainers. First, if someone can't > > find ONE other person willing to be named as a co-maintainer of a given > > package then I would seriously doubt that that package (or that person) > > is an asset to Debian. > > The problem is: do you honestly want to force people who don't want to have > comaintainers on their packages to leave Debian? Hi vbi, Packages, not being sentient, don't mind being comaintained, its people who have objections to comaintaining packages. So its a social problem, not a technical one. In most cases the comaintainers will not be equal in technical skill, social skills, etc. Working together SHOULD benefit both people and Debian. Does Debian need less/anti social folks? Is it beneficial to Debian/the packages/the users? The lesser skilled person(LSP) could gain skill. The more skilled person(MSP) should be able to give the LSP some directed task (like I read about in the NM proposal from 'HE'), thus providing a type of apprenticeship. The other person does not have to know everything about the package, but could offload some of the effort of the MSP. This allow the LSP to gain technical as well as Debian skills(debian workflow and social norms). So the LSP could be in the NM queue or be a less experience DD or someone less skill in a certain language/specialized Debian task, this would provide some way to bring folks in who want to expand their skills/role but dont want to takeover a package like in certain one-point-of-failure tasks. > > Or do you want people who really don't want to have comaintainers for their > packages to put somebody in just so they are following the rules, while > they regard anything done by this comaintainer on his own like they would > regard an intrusive NMU? Well if someone would treat another maintainer in that way or would think an NMU intrusive, is that person being as social as Debian expects? Is being able to working with someone (even if they may be less skilled) something uncommon to Debian? > > Don't misunderstand me: team maintenance is great, and I think it makes > sense even for small and trivial packages. But trying to force anybody to > do anything is no productive in Debian (and we'd have to modify the > constitution for this, anyway :-) I guess there could be expections like there are for other things in Debian (like p-a-s) but like openness, the more [comaintained] , the better. pax vobiscum, Kev ps. happy $HOLIDAYS and $YEAR++ -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! `$' $' $ $ _ ,d$$$g$ ,d$$$b. $,d$$$b`$' g$b $,d$$b ,$P' `$ ,$P' `Y$ $$' `$ $ "' `$ $$' `$ $$ $ $$g$ $ $ $ ,$P"" $ $$ `$g. ,$$ `$$._ _. $ _,g$P $ `$b. ,$$ $$ `Y$$P'$. `YP $$$P"' ,$. `Y$$P'$ $. ,$. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: bug tracking for non-RC architectures
On Tue, Dec 27, 2005 at 03:26:10PM -0800, Steve Langasek wrote: > Hi folks, > > For architectures that are not release candidates, we are going to need > another way to track "release critical" bugs. The whole point of having > architecture criteria is so the project can give higher priority to issues > affecting release architectures (or all architectures) than to issues that > are specific to an architecture that isn't meeting our standards for > releasability; and we're not doing that very effectively if we leave such > architecture-specific bugs at RC severity. OTOH, we don't want to lose > sight of them by just downgrading the severities, as this would make it > awkward to reintroduce the architecture as a release candidate without also > silently reintroducing RC bugs. Hi release manager on high, my impression is to create a simple data file to hold release canidate archs (or a script that would dynamicly create this based on rc goals [I think I saw this on Ingo's site]). Then mod the tools/scripts that display/count RC bugs thus not touching bug reporting tools or the BTS, thus if the canidate list changes, the bugs will simply be added to the views/counts without needing to touch the BTS. happy $holiday and $year++ to your and yours and the four-legged one, Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! `$' $' $ $ _ ,d$$$g$ ,d$$$b. $,d$$$b`$' g$b $,d$$b ,$P' `$ ,$P' `Y$ $$' `$ $ "' `$ $$' `$ $$ $ $$g$ $ $ $ ,$P"" $ $$ `$g. ,$$ `$$._ _. $ _,g$P $ `$b. ,$$ $$ `Y$$P'$. `YP $$$P"' ,$. `Y$$P'$ $. ,$. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Thoughts on Debian quality, including automated testing
On Mon, Dec 26, 2005 at 01:03:21AM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote: > On Sat, Dec 24, 2005 at 10:11:57AM +0100, Frank Küster wrote: > > > The difference is who does the work. > > I a well-team-maintained package, the work is actually done by "the > > team", and decisions are made after finding a consensus solution in the > > team. > > It's nice to know who the team actually *is* though; having a > team.debian.org webpage or something where such things could be listed > would be lovely. Hi AJ, since there are not a very large number of groups(10 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Maintaining a debian package
On Tue, Jan 03, 2006 at 10:59:12PM +0100, Andi Drebes wrote: > Hi there! > I'm currently developing an application for library management (real books, > CDs, etc). I'd like to distribute it over the internet, because I think it > could be useful to other users. As I'm using debian and like it pretty > much, I'd like to add it to the list of packages that debian oficially > provides. The first problem is, that I don't know how to create > debian-packages. I even have a lot of problems when creating a distribution > with automake and autoconf. Well, I'm going to learn it (at least, I hope > so :)). I'd like to know more about the process of how packages are added > to the official debian package list. > > Thanks in advance, > Andi Drebes > > P.S.: Sorry for my bad english - it's not my native language... Hi Andi, you may notice that Debian has many programs to catalog thing. Some for cd/dvd's, some for books, etc. When you make an ITP you will need to make an argument as to why this packages should be added. Debian developers will want to know what differentiates your package from other similar ones in Debian already. This is not to say that you will be unable to add your package to debian, but on rare occasions it has been decided that some packages would not benefit being added. An ITP also know as an "intent to package" is a request that is sent to the Debian BTS (bug tracking system) to announce a request to add a package to Debian. Your next step should be to get familar with Debian by visiting the debian mentor website and join the debian-mentors mailing list. There you will be helped to develop your package so that it can be made into a '.deb' aka debian package. Once you do this, you will need someone to sponsor your package. This will allow someone who is a debian developer to look at your work and if ok, will upload it into Debian. You IIRC can request a sponsor here. Cheers, Kev ps. If you want some beta tester for your work, you should include a URL so that folks like me can try your work, assuming you feel it is in a shape to be tested. -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! `$' $' $ $ _ ,d$$$g$ ,d$$$b. $,d$$$b`$' g$b $,d$$b ,$P' `$ ,$P' `Y$ $$' `$ $ "' `$ $$' `$ $$ $ $$g$ $ $ $ ,$P"" $ $$ `$g. ,$$ `$$._ _. $ _,g$P $ `$b. ,$$ $$ `Y$$P'$. `YP $$$P"' ,$. `Y$$P'$ $. ,$. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: How to Increase Contributions from Volunteers
On Wed, Jan 04, 2006 at 12:20:07PM +0100, Thomas Hood wrote: > Andreas Schuldei wrote: > > we need to promote the easy entry points to contributing to debian > > more prominently and should hide the "how to become a DD" in > > comparison. > > Manoj Srivastava wrote: > > What on earth for? > > Andreas Schuldei wrote: > > [...] people who want to help/contribute seem to be > > turned away by the burecratic nature of the NM process with its > > long waiting periods. People who want to contribute without that > > process need to find a way to do that easily and effectively, > > without spending too much time to find where they can do that. > > [...] > > Manoj, i think you are trying to polarize the discussion. > > > I think that the discussion is already polarized; there is obviously a sharp > difference of view. The disagreement is reflected in the inconsistency > between > the existence of "easy entry points", which you favor. and the whole > philosophy > behind the NM process, which was presumably favored by those who set up that > process. > > You seem to be assuming that Debian should encourage people to contribute, > whereas the NM process was deliberately set up to discourage applicants. > You assume that applicants are scarce, but the assumption behind NM is that > there are more than enough. You assume that newcomers can be given the benefit > of the doubt, whereas the assumption behind NM is that newcomers should not be > trusted until they have endured trials. You assume that contributors are > different, but the assumption behind NM is that developers all need to learn > the same skills. You assume that people can learn as they go, but NM insists > that applicants learn everything up front. > > If there are "easy entry points" in Debian which allow non-DDs to do the same > work as DDs then I can see why a defender of the current NM process would > regard those points as weaknesses in Debian's defenses, which should be closed > rather than advertized. > -- > Thomas Hood Hi Thomas, almost all of the discussion about 'contributing' seems to focus on doing development work on packages. So Debian wants it to be a weeding-out process-thus the NM process. But are there any other types of contribution that can be encouraged by making a clear list and howto? translators, bandwith hosts, sponsors for debian events, supporting debian-user and irc, LUGs that hold 'debian day' and pass out cd's, creating forum for users to encourage/support local business/governemt to move to debian. Selling lance armstrong-type red swirl bracelets? These are but a few ideas, of which I think some are already on the website. To contribute to debian while primarlly involves MAKING it, there are other less technical and/or social things that may bring people/interest/money to our efforts like support and fandom. One area where less technical folks can surely help is Documentations(Osamu Aoki yea!), proofreading debian documents in all of our various languages, some of which require translations.(Christian Perrier yea!) And for people who want to learn the step/skills to become DD's, maybe a DD can create a work book/pdf that would list important skills, websites to visit and exercises that should be attempted to be better prepared for NM. Would it be better if NM's were given a study guide before the NM process? Why not use some of the older DD NM test material for this. And prehaps a seperate guide for folks intending to be translators as Debian thinks they need NM skills of some degree. Again, these may all be in the debian-devel or -mentor site. anyway, Debian should make SOME area easier, not ones involving code. pax vobiscum, Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! `$' $' $ $ _ ,d$$$g$ ,d$$$b. $,d$$$b`$' g$b $,d$$b ,$P' `$ ,$P' `Y$ $$' `$ $ "' `$ $$' `$ $$ $ $$g$ $ $ $ ,$P"" $ $$ `$g. ,$$ `$$._ _. $ _,g$P $ `$b. ,$$ $$ `Y$$P'$. `YP $$$P"' ,$. `Y$$P'$ $. ,$. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Canonical's business model
On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 09:03:24PM -0200, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote: > Having said that, I'd also like to have non-ubuntu-specific patches be > fed to our BTS; that would really make me feel there's a strong policy > of giving back. While my relationship with people at ubuntu working on > gksu is quite good, I still have to look for patches manually sometimes, > like David Nusinow mentioned, and I have found patches that improved > debian's gksu this way at least twice. It would have been much better to > have them filed to the BTS. > > See ya, Hi Gustavo, would it be good for ubuntu to have a user-defined tag, like the BTS has, for 'ubuntu-specific' or conversly 'non-ubuntu-specific'? cheers, Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! `$' $' $ $ _ ,d$$$g$ ,d$$$b. $,d$$$b`$' g$b $,d$$b ,$P' `$ ,$P' `Y$ $$' `$ $ "' `$ $$' `$ $$ $ $$g$ $ $ $ ,$P"" $ $$ `$g. ,$$ `$$._ _. $ _,g$P $ `$b. ,$$ $$ `Y$$P'$. `YP $$$P"' ,$. `Y$$P'$ $. ,$. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Dissection of an Ubuntu PR message
On Fri, Jan 13, 2006 at 03:03:14PM -0200, Gustavo Franco wrote: > On 1/13/06, Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > David Nusinow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Please stop trying to twist my words around. Canonical didn't contribute > > > back. An individual who happened to work for Canonical did. If someone > > > employed by the US government contributes to Debian of his own volition do > > > we say that the US government gives back to Debian? Do we say that your > > > employer gives back to Debian? > > > > If it's an authorised use of company time, sure. Whether or not it is in > > this case, I don't know. > > > > Exactly my point Matthew, and calm down David, i wrote: "e.g.: David > said that Daniel helped him, but if he did that in his workhours it's > under Canonical bless.". Do you see ? I just pointed out that there's > a possibility that he was helping you in his workhours, but i won't > cite you as a reference anymore. > > -- > Gustavo Franco Hi Gustavo, Is it within the scope of Canonical employees to contribute code to Debian that is under the his copyright and not Canonical's? And especially since it is in the exact same area that he was employed by Canonical to do? Would this apply to Progeny and Debian, Progeny and Canonical, Linspire and ... Cheers, Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! `$' $' $ $ _ ,d$$$g$ ,d$$$b. $,d$$$b`$' g$b $,d$$b ,$P' `$ ,$P' `Y$ $$' `$ $ "' `$ $$' `$ $$ $ $$g$ $ $ $ ,$P"" $ $$ `$g. ,$$ `$$._ _. $ _,g$P $ `$b. ,$$ $$ `Y$$P'$. `YP $$$P"' ,$. `Y$$P'$ $. ,$. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Need for launchpad
On Fri, Jan 13, 2006 at 08:34:33PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: > Matt Zimmerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > I can't agree. From the sound of this and other threads, there are a number > > of folks who are unlikely to be satisfied with any behavior on the part of > > the Ubuntu project or its members. Fortunately, there are others who are > > actively cooperating to the mutual benefit of the two projects. > > Really, it's very easy. I would be satisfied if both of the following > were done: > > Every time you find a bug in an Ubuntu package, make some effort to > determine if it is Ubuntu-specific or might rather affect all Debian > users. If it is not Ubuntu-specific, then file a bug report, and > optionally, a patch, in the Debian BTS. Hi Thomas, would it be usefull if the Ubuntu Maintainer would add a 'ubuntu-specific' usertag to those bugs in the Ubuntu BTS as a way of telling Debian folks (as well as others) that they should not address this bugs. Cheers, Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! `$' $' $ $ _ ,d$$$g$ ,d$$$b. $,d$$$b`$' g$b $,d$$b ,$P' `$ ,$P' `Y$ $$' `$ $ "' `$ $$' `$ $$ $ $$g$ $ $ $ ,$P"" $ $$ `$g. ,$$ `$$._ _. $ _,g$P $ `$b. ,$$ $$ `Y$$P'$. `YP $$$P"' ,$. `Y$$P'$ $. ,$. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Need for launchpad
On Sat, Jan 14, 2006 at 09:42:22AM +0100, Raphael Hertzog wrote: > On Fri, 13 Jan 2006, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: > > Um, I have said nothing against crediting maintainers in the > > packages. I have only said that I would like Ubuntu to clearly label > > which is the Debian maintainer and which is the Ubuntu maintainer. > > There's no "Ubuntu maintainer" for a specific package... packages in > Universe are sometimes uploaded by several different person. Hi Rapael, So WHO exactly would you expect Ubuntu folks to think to email with requests? The result by experience is Debian maintainers who for various reasons don't wan't/expect/are confused by this. Maybe create an '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' for the Maintainer: and have a similar mailing list for bugs and then have any Ubuntu person monitor and help on that list? > Packages in > Ubuntu main usually have the same set of maintainer however. > Maybe create an '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' for the Maintainer: and have a similar mailing list for bugs and then have any Ubuntu person monitor and help on that list? Cheers, Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! `$' $' $ $ _ ,d$$$g$ ,d$$$b. $,d$$$b`$' g$b $,d$$b ,$P' `$ ,$P' `Y$ $$' `$ $ "' `$ $$' `$ $$ $ $$g$ $ $ $ ,$P"" $ $$ `$g. ,$$ `$$._ _. $ _,g$P $ `$b. ,$$ $$ `Y$$P'$. `YP $$$P"' ,$. `Y$$P'$ $. ,$. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Need for launchpad
On Sun, Jan 15, 2006 at 01:36:43PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: > Kevin Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > would it be usefull if the Ubuntu Maintainer would add a > > 'ubuntu-specific' usertag to those bugs in the Ubuntu BTS as a way of > > telling Debian folks (as well as others) that they should not address > > this bugs. > > You aren't listening. Do not submit irrelevant bugs to the BTS. > > DO submit all known bugs to the BTS which *are* relevant. Hi Thomas, I think you mis-read my mail, I was asking Ubuntu folks to label the Ubuntu-specific bugs in the Ubuntu BTS, not in the Debian BTS. Cheers, Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! `$' $' $ $ _ ,d$$$g$ ,d$$$b. $,d$$$b`$' g$b $,d$$b ,$P' `$ ,$P' `Y$ $$' `$ $ "' `$ $$' `$ $$ $ $$g$ $ $ $ ,$P"" $ $$ `$g. ,$$ `$$._ _. $ _,g$P $ `$b. ,$$ $$ `Y$$P'$. `YP $$$P"' ,$. `Y$$P'$ $. ,$. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Need for launchpad
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Jan 18, 2006 at 03:47:15PM +0100, Reinhard Tartler wrote: > On 1/17/06, Wouter Verhelst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > As it is, to me, Ubuntu is just a group of people, some of which might > > have names[1]. I find it hard to work with such a thing; while I would > > love to work more closely with Ubuntu, the lack of personality is what's > > holding me back---and I'm afraid that telling me "contact me, I'll > > forward it" isn't going to change that. > > If you want a fast answer to a quick question, we are at #ubuntu-motu > in freenode. Usually there is someone with an archive of > dapper-changes who can look quickly who touched the package last, or > you could check changelogs.ubuntu.com which holds changelog and > copyright files of the packages. Hi Reinhard, are the changelogs on changelogs.ubuntu.com only from stable releases or do they include testing/dapper? Also, I was checking packages.ubuntu.com - -> dapper -> base utils->bash->view Debian changelog and it was a dead link. If the entries on changelogs.ubuntu.com contain the info that the 'view Debian changelog' should contain, why not set up a programatic way to have the links made. The 'view Debian changelog' entries for stable (and presumable stable - 1) seem to work. Cheers, Kev - -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! `$' $' $ $ _ ,d$$$g$ ,d$$$b. $,d$$$b`$' g$b $,d$$b ,$P' `$ ,$P' `Y$ $$' `$ $ "' `$ $$' `$ $$ $ $$g$ $ $ $ ,$P"" $ $$ `$g. ,$$ `$$._ _. $ _,g$P $ `$b. ,$$ $$ `Y$$P'$. `YP $$$P"' ,$. `Y$$P'$ $. ,$. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDz0VLv8UcC1qRZVMRAitEAJ9diMGJj7R3tarjGGN3YfFS+tBGaACfQhqQ qTlhC5yw7TJ0c8rDlhp++iw= =6/fj -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ad-hominem construct deleted]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Jan 18, 2006 at 10:26:05AM +0100, Thijs Kinkhorst wrote: > On Wed, 2006-01-18 at 10:01 +0100, Gerfried Fuchs wrote: > > * Matt Zimmerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-01-17 11:36]: > > > Kennedy wasn't a citizen of Berlin, either, not literally. The world > > > understood what he meant, though, when he said (somewhat awkwardly) that > > > he > > > was. > > > > Again my question: Do you seriously consider calling Linus and RMS > > Debian Developers? > > Shuttleworth is using a *figure of speech*. A figure of speech is > something not to be taken literally. Figures of speech are used all the > time and they make language more interesting. > > Mr Zimmerman's reference to Kennedy is an excellent example of such a > metaphorical construct. When Kennedy said that, there will undoubtedly > have been people who uttered "Hey, he's not German! He's lying!". But > luckily most people will have understood what he meant. Hi Thijs, I was unable to locate the quote, but it seems that the quote is/could be taken liteally. Why not modify the quote to state that it is metaphorical by using something like 'Every Debian developer is an Ubuntu developer in the same vein as the quote from JFK when he was in Berlin' or 'Every Debian developer is an Ubuntu developer in the sense that all of the Debian developers work is used as a basis for the work of Ubuntu developer' Cheers, Kev - -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! `$' $' $ $ _ ,d$$$g$ ,d$$$b. $,d$$$b`$' g$b $,d$$b ,$P' `$ ,$P' `Y$ $$' `$ $ "' `$ $$' `$ $$ $ $$g$ $ $ $ ,$P"" $ $$ `$g. ,$$ `$$._ _. $ _,g$P $ `$b. ,$$ $$ `Y$$P'$. `YP $$$P"' ,$. `Y$$P'$ $. ,$. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDz00Iv8UcC1qRZVMRAjpGAJoCJkC2PoCIpXW8/7JiN0XDPy8lLgCfb6UR wb5Y/dqdkkqDZUUbujEZb/A= =mIW+ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: when and why did python(-minimal) become essential?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, Jan 19, 2006 at 05:58:20PM -0500, David Nusinow wrote: > On Thu, Jan 19, 2006 at 01:47:18PM -0800, Matt Zimmerman wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 19, 2006 at 09:23:30PM +, Martin Michlmayr wrote: > > > * Matt Zimmerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-01-19 12:45]: > > > > Please don't do this; it implies that python-minimal would be part > > > > of base, but not full python, and this is something that python > > > > upstream explicitly objects to. > > > > > > Why? Surely having a sub-set of python is better than nothing at all, no? > > > > One of the appealing things about the Python language is their "batteries > > included" philosophy: users can assume that the standard library is > > available, documentation and examples are written to the full API, etc. > > When it's broken into pieces, they get complaints and support requests from > > their user community when things don't work the way they should. > > For what it's worth, we've caught hell from the ruby community for breaking > the standard library in to its component parts and not installing it all by > default. This problem has been largely abrogated as of late, but I'd rather > not see us piss off the python community for making a similar mistake. > > That said, I don't really understand why it's Ok for Ubuntu to do this but > not us. > > - David Nusinow Hi Debian folks, Debian seems to like to support embedded devices and allow folks to install as little as possible in/for a base install. And in that vein, the discussion is on 'essential' packages. I can understand if a whole language community got pissed if when you install a standard-level packages like 'perl' and then it was missing pieces, but aren't Debian devs allowed to design packages for our philosophical/project goals in regards to a 'mininal' install when we design an 'essential' packages? If Ubuntu's goals are to heavily use/promote Python and feel its 'essential' to include the whole shebang and not part, then that's their goals and its fine by me. Giving away code (GPL or otherwise) to the world is done for many reasons. Aparently some folks are more concerned about how their work is used. As with the attribution in .debs, folks want the users to not associate possible (as judged by them) 'bad'/'unofficial'/'off project'/'different' work with their projects. But the perl folks don't seem to have that objection! x-) (at least none have spoken yet!) cheers, Kev - -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! `$' $' $ $ _ ,d$$$g$ ,d$$$b. $,d$$$b`$' g$b $,d$$b ,$P' `$ ,$P' `Y$ $$' `$ $ "' `$ $$' `$ $$ $ $$g$ $ $ $ ,$P"" $ $$ `$g. ,$$ `$$._ _. $ _,g$P $ `$b. ,$$ $$ `Y$$P'$. `YP $$$P"' ,$. `Y$$P'$ $. ,$. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFD0JFJv8UcC1qRZVMRAmvJAJ9AVNJDhdpKRYO2bcCj80u084hPVQCfXnn3 qCUzzKlIHj8v4eieYXR1JvE= =lEuL -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A great weekend for Debian
On Mon, Jan 23, 2006 at 06:56:56PM +0100, Amaya wrote: #include and thanks for your time to write such a useful note about how you and others are keeping Debian great! > > It leads me to think Debian accounts should expire in a year of no > activity and packages be automatically orphaned, but it is just a side > effect of RC over-dose, and I really need to go back to my own packages > when this is over. I was thinking of an analogy of a car rental store. A company (Debian) owns a car (a package) and 'hires' a mechanic (maintainer) to look after it. Folks come in from time to time and rent the car (use the package). From time to time folks who rent the car notice problems with the car and tell the mechanic about them. So, when the car is brought back, night after night, he/she fixes the car. And then folks come in again and rent the car and notice the improvements. But after sometime, the car starts to fall apart and then the mechanic is no where to be found. It seem like the company owners should ask where the mechanic went and the mechanic should either leave a note (out to lunch, on vacation, on personal leave) or before leaving, should tell the company to find a fill-in mechanic, add a mechanic to the mechanic team or if no notice is given, start looking for a new mechanic who reports back when he/she will be out. It seems various people have sought to address some of the issue of lack of package maintanership: low threshold NMU policy. This is to combat the 'fiefdom' idea which is a non-technical issue. And the idea of a one year term on @debian.org accounts and official maintainer status for their packages is a techincal solution to the problem of 'fiefdom's. Folks are away for legitimate reasons: paid-work, family obligations, sickness, lack of /bin/sleep ;-). If folks said: "I want to continue to work on package X but will be away for " where was not large enought to warrant concern for the package upkeep, then fine. Otherwise the person should seek to have someone fill-in for their time or they could choose to hand it over to someone else. That could be done with a list for all packages where DD,NM and others could signup for wanting to work on the package. Otherwise the list could be used as a way for others to seek a person to address an issue raised by new upstream, an RC bug or security issue. Unfortunatley it does't address all issues for package upkeep when the maintainer is MIA and no one is to be found to continue the work. Again, thanks to all who do great work and contribute much to world domination^H^H^H^H^Debian! Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! `$' $' $ $ _ ,d$$$g$ ,d$$$b. $,d$$$b`$' g$b $,d$$b ,$P' `$ ,$P' `Y$ $$' `$ $ "' `$ $$' `$ $$ $ $$g$ $ $ $ ,$P"" $ $$ `$g. ,$$ `$$._ _. $ _,g$P $ `$b. ,$$ $$ `Y$$P'$. `YP $$$P"' ,$. `Y$$P'$ $. ,$. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: emacs 21.4, Chinese and utf-8
On Mon, Jan 23, 2006 at 08:28:40PM +0100, Stefan Müller wrote: > Hi, > > I am a grammar developer and I started to work on Chinese. We use a > development system that needs utf-8 input. I managed to set up > everything for emacs 21.3. All I had to say was: > > (setq default-input-method \"chinese-py\") > (set-default-coding-systems 'utf-8) > > And storing the files with Chinese characters in utf-8 and telling emacs > about it with the line: > > % -*- coding:utf-8 mode:trale-prolog-*- > > was sufficient. > > I put together a CD rom that is based on Knoppix, which is a debian > distribution. Debian uses emacs 21.4 and all I found out does not work > any longer: > > I can set the input-method to chinese-py by hand and type chinese > characters, but I cannot save them in utf-8. I can set this option for > saving the buffer, but if I try to safe the file emacs asks again and > utf-8 is not offered as an option. > > Do you have any ideas what I could do about this? > > Thanks and best wishes > > > Stefan > Hi Stefan, To solve your immediate problem, I'd suggest searching the lists.debian.org for emacs related mailing lists or possible #debian or an emacs channel on irc.freenode.net. I have chatted on #debian with people who use chinese input methods and may also have familiarity with mule. And additionaly, there maybe hints or bugs in bugs.debian.org related to mule/emacs. The reason for my reply follows. There is currently a debate on the debian-devel mailing list that relates to the issue that you are experiencing: you are using a Debian-derivative and then try a similar procedure on Debian expecting a reproducible behavior and are confused as to why this is. Debian and Ubuntu, a unique Debian-derivative, are trying to devise a system that clearly states to Debian-derivative users that difference in application behavior and/or bugs should be expected. One idea is to change the attribution of the software package info to reflect who actually changed the software package as some derivatives leave the info unchanged which leads to people: 1. complaining to Debian developers instead of the derivative maintainers. 2. contributing bug reports to the Debian bug tracking system, which then the developer is unable to reproduce because of the differences between a derivative and Debian 3. complaining in #debian when they should be asking on an irc channel of the derivative (eg. #knoppix) At some point in the future Debian may have similar discussion with other derivitavies like Knoppix. Cheers, Kevin Mark ps. I hope you dont mind me CC the debian-devel list as I think your post is a data point in the issue being addressed. -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! `$' $' $ $ _ ,d$$$g$ ,d$$$b. $,d$$$b`$' g$b $,d$$b ,$P' `$ ,$P' `Y$ $$' `$ $ "' `$ $$' `$ $$ $ $$g$ $ $ $ ,$P"" $ $$ `$g. ,$$ `$$._ _. $ _,g$P $ `$b. ,$$ $$ `Y$$P'$. `YP $$$P"' ,$. `Y$$P'$ $. ,$. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Offline use of apt-cacher
On Mon, Jan 23, 2006 at 09:23:55PM +0100, Eduard Bloch wrote: > #include > As said bvefore, if you activate this mode manually, this should be an > easy feature to add on. How do you want to configure it? > > Eduard. Hi Eduard, I was just struck by your choice of phrase. It, in a way, expresses one of the ideas behind Free software. The 'Where do you want to go today?' phrase came to mind as one phrase that does't quite express Free software because it says nothing about the user but his/her choice to use a piece of software. But 'How do you want to configure it?' shows the idea of the collaborative nature of Free software where user and developer jointly decide the future and work together on it. Cheers, Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! `$' $' $ $ _ ,d$$$g$ ,d$$$b. $,d$$$b`$' g$b $,d$$b ,$P' `$ ,$P' `Y$ $$' `$ $ "' `$ $$' `$ $$ $ $$g$ $ $ $ ,$P"" $ $$ `$g. ,$$ `$$._ _. $ _,g$P $ `$b. ,$$ $$ `Y$$P'$. `YP $$$P"' ,$. `Y$$P'$ $. ,$. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: A great weekend for Debian
On Mon, Jan 23, 2006 at 11:08:57AM +0100, Amaya wrote: > Steinar H. Gunderson wrote: > > I think you're overly optimistic :-) Most of the simple RC bugs > > (related to the xlibs-dev transition) have been fixed; there aren't 90 > > more like those. Those left are: > > > > http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/[EMAIL > > PROTECTED]:transition-xlibs-dev&repeatmerged=no > > You are right, the most simple ones are fixed now, only the ugly ones > remain. > > We could use some help, so fellow Developers, smash an ugly bug today! Hi Amaya, to paraphrase your recent blog quote: make (NMU) love, not (flame) war! cheers, Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! `$' $' $ $ _ ,d$$$g$ ,d$$$b. $,d$$$b`$' g$b $,d$$b ,$P' `$ ,$P' `Y$ $$' `$ $ "' `$ $$' `$ $$ $ $$g$ $ $ $ ,$P"" $ $$ `$g. ,$$ `$$._ _. $ _,g$P $ `$b. ,$$ $$ `Y$$P'$. `YP $$$P"' ,$. `Y$$P'$ $. ,$. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#350982: ITP: slimscrobbler -- SlimServer plugin that submits listening data to Last.FM
On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 05:58:54PM +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote: > Le jeudi 02 février 2006 à 09:10 -0700, dann frazier a écrit : > > On Thu, 2006-02-02 at 03:05 -0600, Peter Samuelson wrote: > > > [dann frazier] > > > > * Package name: slimscrobbler > > > > Description : SlimServer plugin that submits listening data to > > > > Last.FM > > > > > > OK... > > > > > > > Version : x.y.z > > > > Upstream Author : Name <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > * URL : http://www.example.org/ > > > > * License : (GPL, LGPL, BSD, MIT/X, etc.) > > > > > > > > (Include the long description here.) > > > > I couldn't really come up with anything longer - the short description > > says it all... > > Are you joking? > > What is SlimServer? > What "listening data" do you refer to? > What is Last.FM? Hi Josselin, I have read many descriptions that made no sense to me and it was mentioned that you either know what the jargon/terms are because they are in your area of expertise or else if you dont know the terms/jargon, you probably wouldn't be interested in the package. So I guess either you know what last.fm is, or you don't. If you don't, no one seem to want to explain it to you. This is but one example from many in the archive. Should I file some kind of minor bug with a certain usertag for each of these and will it be labeled wontfix? Cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#350982: ITP: slimscrobbler -- SlimServer plugin that submits listening data to Last.FM
On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 06:16:29AM +0100, Mike Hommey wrote: > On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 09:41:55PM -0500, Kevin Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > Hi Josselin, > > I have read many descriptions that made no sense to me and it was > > mentioned that you either know what the jargon/terms are because they > > are in your area of expertise or else if you dont know the terms/jargon, > > you probably wouldn't be interested in the package. So I guess either > > you know what last.fm is, or you don't. If you don't, no one seem to want > > to explain it to you. This is but one example from many in the archive. > > Should I file some kind of minor bug with a certain usertag for each of > > these and will it be labeled wontfix? > > Actually, you may not know what last.fm is, and still get interested in > it if someone gives you an explanation of what it is... > > Mike Hi Mike, of course someone can learn about a package or term used in a package from a source other than the short or long description and then choose to use a package but doing an 'apt-cache search & show' is supposed to be useful. And if it requires a person or google search to explain why I may want to use a package, the person may not be available and google could take time and may never lead to a sufficient explanation which leads to joe user who may not have net access or sufficient human resources ever using a package. So basically some descriptions need to be edited to define some terms more but not to an encyclopedic degree. And thus you need to find the balance between terseness and verbosity. The debtags may address this issue, but they are at times cryptic and thus need a definition. I was just looking at 'molphy' and found tags for 'culture::bosnia' and 'admin::logging'. What am I supposed to infer? This was written by a bosnian, it is in the bosnia language, the app is about bosnia? (not to criticize, this is just a random sample to illustrate, hi E.Z.) And does this produce a log in /var/log? Is this just to say that app produces a error/user log? These are tags that lack a definition so that folks know for what they are short hand. cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: How to contribute
On Mon, Feb 13, 2006 at 01:58:09PM +, Michael Rasmussen wrote: > Hi all, > > How to I contribute an application to Debian? > > I am the developer of the application and it is released under GPL > > Regards, > Michael Rasmussen > Hi Michael, there is documentation on the debian.org website for developers under the developers sections. The basic thing is to read about the 'ITP' (intent to package) ,'RFS' request for sponsorship, and possibly the 'NM'(new maintainers) process. To get software included in Debian, you can be a developer or you can get a developer to sponsor software. This means that he/she will inspect your software and if its found to be free of reasonably bad things (trojans, major bugs, licensing, etc.) it will be uploaded by him/her. This is because if you are not a member of Debian, you are not 'trusted' yet to upload to our secure infrastructure. If you become a Developer, then you are given the permission and you can upload your stuff. Also, to get help on packageing (eg. making a .deb archive) there is the debian-mentors sub-site on the debian.org site and an accompaning mail list. Cheers, Kev PS. releasing under the GPL is a good first step because licensing is very important to Debian and the GPL is one of its most used license. -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: How to contribute
On Mon, Feb 13, 2006 at 07:14:04PM +0100, Michael Rasmussen wrote: > Hi Kevin, > > On 13-02-2006 15:38:16, Kevin Mark wrote: > >there is documentation on the debian.org website for developers under > >the developers sections. The basic thing is to read about the 'ITP' > >(intent to package) ,'RFS' request for sponsorship, and possibly the > >'NM'(new maintainers) process. To get software included in Debian, > >you > >can be a developer or you can get a developer to sponsor software. > >This > >means that he/she will inspect your software and if its found to be > >free > >of reasonably bad things (trojans, major bugs, licensing, etc.) it > >will > >be uploaded by him/her. This is because if you are not a member of > >Debian, you are not 'trusted' yet to upload to our secure > I have been reading it for the last 1 or 2 hours. From what I > understand one should use wnpp to file an RFA and ITP request and in > that request give a short and a long description of the application. If > one is able it is also prefered to include a URL to *.orig.tar.gz, > *.diff, *.dsc and *.deb. Also it is recommended that one should > register on http://sponsors.debian.net > > >infrastructure. If you become a Developer, then you are given the > >permission and you can upload your stuff. Also, to get help on > >packageing (eg. making a .deb archive) there is the debian-mentors > >sub-site on the debian.org site and an accompaning mail list. > This is not a problem since I have package several source.tar.gz or > ported *BSD, Redhat and Slackware before for my own purposes:-) > > >PS. releasing under the GPL is a good first step because licensing is > >very important to Debian and the GPL is one of its most used license. > > Check. There can be only one license:-) > > -- > Hilsen/Regards > Michael Rasmussen Hi Michael, you seem to forging ahead! check out my diagram at http://debian.home.pipeline.com for a BIG overview of Debian. Hope to 'apt-get install' your application soon! Cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#352912: general: Reduce network load using zip packaging and VFS
On Wed, Feb 15, 2006 at 08:25:07PM +0300, =?UTF-8?Q? =D0=9F=D0=BE=D1=80=D1=82=D0=BE=D0=BD_?= =?UTF-8?Q?=D0=9B=D1=8C=D0=B2=D0=BE=D0=B2=D0=B8=D1=87 ?= wrote: > First, I suggested .zip just for an example. There are other similar > archivers with bigger compression ratio. > > > One more additional thought: We can make Debian server to serve files like > apache2_2.0.55.zip/README and/or apache2_2.0.55-4.zip/README (patched) > delivering to clients (compressed) entries from the .zip archive. (Which > protocol to use? Not HTTP due too big overhead. Or maybe HTTP is OK with > pipelining? At least HTTP well supports tranferring archived data. File modes > can be specified by an extension HTTP header.) > > Then clients would be able to mount these (source) archives as filesystems. > > -- > Victor Porton ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > Hi Victor, Debian seems to like folks to do stuff as well as make suggestions. Could you implement any of your ideas in a small scale and provide a report of benefits. And if possible allow other folks access to this system. I would use the excellent example of Ingo J. who provides the buildd.net service. Even if all of his ideas have not been integrated into debian, it still provides a useful service and is an example of possible improvements that debian could utilize. The benefit Ingo's service provide are apparent only after having seen it in action and not merely from reading his proposal. Cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Honesty in Debian (was Re: Amendment to GR on GFDL, and the changes to the Social Contract
On Sat, Feb 18, 2006 at 12:13:04AM -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote: > Xavier Roche dijo [Mon, Feb 13, 2006 at 10:55:57AM +0100]: > > > > Fonts or documentations are not softwares, for god's sake! > > > everything that is not hardware is software > > > > So a cat is a software, or a hardware ? Do I have to provide the sources > > (the DNA full sequence) if I want to give a kitten to someone, following > > the "free" spirit ? :p > > A cat is not licensed under a viral license ;-) And, more important, > is not covered by copyright law (at least, I have not heard of a > breeder copyrighting the colors and/or design in the back of his > carefully-bred kittens) > Hi Gunnar, Monsanto has copyrighted GM rice. And as of late, a company has been selling a allergy-free cat which I'm sure they have either a patent and/or a copyright. IP seem to be including more and more of the world we live in and is consuming the past and possibly the future. Cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: ITP: freebsd-manpages -- Manual pages for a GNU/kFreeBSD system
On Sat, Feb 18, 2006 at 09:02:57AM +0100, Javier Fern?ndez-Sanguino Pe?a wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 17, 2006 at 11:55:22PM +0100, Guerkan Senguen wrote:
> > Package: wnpp
> > Severity: wishlist
> >
> > * Package name: freebsd-manpages
> > Version : 6.0
> Wouldn't this package conflict with the 'manpages' package (which provides
> them for GNU/Linux) and with the manpages provided by other (core) packages?
> Or are all manpages going to be renamed so that there is no filename conflict
> under /usr/share/man/man{2,4}?
>
> Regards
>
> Javier
Hi,
if 'manpages' are GFDL and freebsd-manpages is under a bsd license, then
if freebsd-manpages CAN replace manpages and GFDL docs are removed, then there
will be no conflict.
cheers,
Kev
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Re: ITP: freebsd-manpages -- Manual pages for a GNU/kFreeBSD system
On Sat, Feb 18, 2006 at 09:42:19AM +0100, David Weinehall wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 18, 2006 at 03:30:38AM -0500, Kevin Mark wrote:
> > On Sat, Feb 18, 2006 at 09:02:57AM +0100, Javier Fern?ndez-Sanguino Pe?a
> > wrote:
> > > On Fri, Feb 17, 2006 at 11:55:22PM +0100, Guerkan Senguen wrote:
> > > > Package: wnpp
> > > > Severity: wishlist
> > > >
> > > > * Package name: freebsd-manpages
> > > > Version : 6.0
> > > Wouldn't this package conflict with the 'manpages' package (which
> > > provides them for GNU/Linux) and with the manpages provided by other
> > > (core) packages? Or are all manpages going to be renamed so that
> > > there is no filename conflict under /usr/share/man/man{2,4}?
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Javier
> >
> > Hi,
> > if 'manpages' are GFDL and freebsd-manpages is under a bsd license,
> > then if freebsd-manpages CAN replace manpages and GFDL docs are
> > removed, then there will be no conflict.
>
> a.) The manpages packages does not (AFAIK) contain any GFDL docs;
> it's not provided by FSF, since they have a strange aversion
> against manpages, and an even stranger predilection for info
> pages...
>
> b.) The package itself does not *need* to conflict with the manpages
> package, since it provides manpages for 4, 5, and 7,
> (and manpages-dev provides 2, and 3).
>
> Replaces: manpages, manpages-dev
>
> is needed though.
>
> HOWEVER, since manpages-dev presumably contains documentations for
> interfaces that are Linux specific, it might make sense to have a
> Conflicts: manpages, manpages-dev
> anyway. This would mean that users of Debian GNU/FreeBSD would lose
> the manual-pages for glibc though (since they are also in manpages-dev).
> Maybe the manpages source package should be split into more binary
> packages? manpages (generic stuff for all Debian systems),
> manpages-linux (Linux specific things, like sysfs), manpages-linux-dev
> (Linux specific programming interfaces).
>
Hi David,
after a brief inspection, it seem 'manpages' are under various and
sundry licenses (none are GFDL) which is good. But with the change from
kernel-image to linux-image as one recognition of Debians' intent to be
more inclusive of non-linux thingy, should there be a change in the
installation path and notation inside man pages as to their kernel
origin? (like .../man/linux/ and .../man/bsd/) This would allow
simultaneous installtion and would allow someone on either system to be
able to read man pages from other systems. I doubt there was ever a *nix
system that envisioned bsd and linux stuff being installed on the same
system x-)
Cheers,
Kev
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Re: Change .rm to mp3 or wav file
On Sat, Feb 18, 2006 at 09:29:52AM -0800, Peter Khwatenge wrote: > Do you have a program that can change .rm to mp3 or wave files? If yes, how > can I get one? > > Thanks > > Peter > [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Peter, there is software to do this but your questions should be asked on the debian-user list where questions like these are answered. This list is not used to answer question about using Debian but about making the Debian distribution. Cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#353277: ndiswrapper in main (was: Bug#353277: should be in contrib)
On Sun, Feb 19, 2006 at 02:11:30AM -0600, Peter Samuelson wrote: > No, the point of Java is to allow users to run Java software, which > they may or may not have written themselves, and which may or may not > be free software. Examples of all permutations of the above are really > easy to find. Can you say the same of ndiswrapper? Please be prepared > to present the testimonials of all the Windows driver developers you > know who really wish they could conveniently test their Windows drivers > on Debian, because I find it hard to believe there are any. We've > already established that nobody can find any free Windows drivers for > use with ndiswrapper, except one which is pointless as it's a port of a > driver Debian already has as native code. Hi Peter, if a piece of software was initially created to enable the use of non-dfsg software with a dfsg system it is classified as '?contri', but then someone creates dfsg-software to use this software, now its classified as 'main'. Would this follow? And then once in main, if the dfsg-use is abondoned, would it be reclassified as 'contrib'? But it also seems that the dfsg-use is not an absolute condition, it has to be deem non-toy and useful which is not an easily agreed upon idea. Cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#353277: ndiswrapper in main
On Sun, Feb 19, 2006 at 11:42:55PM +0100, Goswin von Brederlow wrote: > Mike Hommey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > On Sat, Feb 18, 2006 at 05:04:54PM +0100, Goswin von Brederlow > >> The availability to do this is enough even if there are other > >> (possibly better) ways to do the same. One free driver _in_ Debian and > >> the package should stay in main. > >> > >> But does the cipe-source build or ship the windows driver for use with > >> ndiswraper? I doubt that. > >> > >> Which means you need some software (even if it is free) from outside > >> Debian for ndiswraper. That makes it contrib imho. > > > > Are there any free MSWord files in main ? No ? Then please move > > antiword and similar tools to contrib. > > > > Mike > > The difference is that antiword is a tool for the user. The user will > have doc files to use with antiword, e.g. send by mail. The antiword > program on its own provides the user with the ability to view his/her > word files. It does not depend on the existance of such a file on the > system to provide that service. > > But users don't get drivers send to them for use with ndiswraper. That > is strictly a system/kernel thing. A driver MUST be provided for > ndiswraper to create a network interface for use in the system. As > such I feel that its need for a driver constitutes a dependency. > > But that is just me. Do what you want as long as ndiswraper stays out > of non-free. > > MfG > Goswin Hi Devs, it seems that even before the SC, folks had different catagories for stuff. I'd love to spend some time classifying the wildlife in Debian and devise rules based upon how they are classified. Some of the wildlife include: license text, non-sourcecode documentation, kernel utilites, user utilites Cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#353277: ndiswrapper in main
On Sun, Feb 19, 2006 at 05:54:59PM -0500, Kevin Mark wrote: > it seems that even before the SC, folks had different catagories for Sorry, that should be: ...even before the GR to change the SC, Cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: PROPOSAL: debian/control file to include new License: field
On Mon, Feb 20, 2006 at 11:12:46PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: > Jari Aalto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > To my understanding the only way to obtain the license information for a > > package is to actually download it (or install it) and the study the > > content of > > > /usr/share/doc//copyright > > > It would be better if user could use the packaging search commands, like > > > grep-dctrl -F License ... --and -F package ... > > Out of curiosity, why? What problem are you trying to solve? > > > PROPOSAL: > > > Add new field to the debian/control (which would be generated by > > dh-make): > > > License: > > > It would contain a canonicalized word to describe the license in > > questions, like: > > > GPL, GPL2, GPL3, LGPL, BSD, Perl Artistic, MIT/X . Custom > > This has been proposed before. One of the problems with this idea is that > many packages have more complex licenses than that, ones that cannot be > easily encapsulated into a single term. Many packages contain files under > various different licenses and many packages are covered under minor > modifications to standard licenses, so coming up with these terms becomes > a bit complicated, can't be fully accurate, and seems likely to spawn a > complicated set of rules that are hard to verify. > > In other words, it seems like a lot of work, and it's not clear what > problem it would really solve. Hi, would it provide any automation or easier processing for the NEW queue(ftpmasters)? would it allow for reducing package size by removing license text from all packages and having them installed in a seperate essential package stored in a canonical location (/usr/share/doc/dfsg-license-texts/) (dfsg-license-texts.deb) and have a file-license.txt to list which files are licensed under which license? Cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: PROPOSAL: debian/control file to include new License: field
On Tue, Feb 21, 2006 at 02:35:52AM -0600, Peter Samuelson wrote: > > [Kevin Mark] > > would it provide any automation or easier processing for the NEW > > queue(ftpmasters)? > > I doubt it. They don't take the maintainer's word for stuff like that, > as I understand it - they double-check the copyright and license > declarations in the source code. You mean they check ever single time $RANDOM_PACKAGE enter NEW and don't assume its correct until someone raises an objections? I'd at least think you could create a sub-queue in NEW so that already tagged standard licenses would get processed faster and others would be in a location to allow for special license processing. Cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: PROPOSAL: debian/control file to include new License: field
On Tue, Feb 21, 2006 at 10:40:33AM +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote: > On 10572 March 1977, Kevin Mark wrote: > > > You mean they check ever single time $RANDOM_PACKAGE enter NEW and don't > > assume its correct until someone raises an objections? > > Yes. And the big number of rejects due to incorrect debian/copyright > files (more than for technical reasons) shows that it is neccessary. > > If we wouldnt check the packages we would have stuff in debian that > contains statements like "YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO GIVE THAT CODE TO > ANYONE", has license incompatibilities, talks about legal actions > against you if you modify code, etc. pp. Hi Joerg, I understand the general idea of a DFSG-free license but, for example, if Clint uploads yet another zsh package bugfix, I'm not expecting him to have it under a different license then the last 99 uploads. And if there was a license change, you could detect it by checking the current package license 'tag' against some 'oldtag' stored by some random method. This assumes that the developer classified it correctly in the initial setup, and then this was verified by the ftpmasters and the developer doesnt have some malicious intent to not notify ftpmaster of a new license change via these said 'tag's. Cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: PROPOSAL: debian/control file to include new License: field
On Tue, Feb 21, 2006 at 10:48:30AM +0100, Thomas Viehmann wrote: > Kevin Mark wrote: > > You mean they check ever single time $RANDOM_PACKAGE enter NEW and don't > > assume its correct until someone raises an objections? I'd at least > > think you could create a sub-queue in NEW so that already tagged > > standard licenses would get processed faster and others would be in a > > location to allow for special license processing. > Well, de facto a package that only has a soname bump will likely not be > license-reexamined. > For truly new packages, though, there is no way to get around a thorough > examination by someone paying careful attention and the ftpmasters are > really doing a good job at this. > Unfortunately there are enough maintainers that are sloppy in the > fulfillment/ignorant of the requirements of the debian/copyright file[1] > to lessen the ftpmasters' burden. dh-make's brokenness[2] doesn't help. > In fact, a random new package mentioned on debian-mentors will likely > not have a correct copyright file. At the time of writing this, the last > open RFS for a new package is stegosnow[3]. It does display this problem. > > Kind regards Hi Thomas, as I just wrote to Joerge, I am not refering to the initial upload of a brand-new package which warrants such attention, but the upload for bug fixes and new upstream. If someone uploads Bash, its a pretty safe bet that the license is not going to change but if it did, all that would be required is to change this 'tag' and then have an automated check compare 'tag' with 'oldtag' and flag this upload as requireing a license re-cert. Cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: PROPOSAL: debian/control file to include new License: field
On Tue, Feb 21, 2006 at 11:01:07AM +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote: > On 10572 March 1977, Kevin Mark wrote: > > > I understand the general idea of a DFSG-free license but, for example, > > if Clint uploads yet another zsh package bugfix, I'm not expecting him to > > have > > it under a different license then the last 99 uploads. And if there was > > a license change, you could detect it by checking the current package > > license 'tag' against some 'oldtag' stored by some random method. > > This assumes that the developer classified it correctly in the initial > > setup, and then this was verified by the ftpmasters and the developer > > doesnt have some malicious intent to not notify ftpmaster of a new > > license change via these said 'tag's. > > Only packages in NEW are checked, not every little bugfix upload. :) Hi Joerg, I probably need one of these two at the moment: 1) sleep 2) caffine so I mis-stated what NEW entails. It deals with initial uploads and other situations(at least new upstream and other cases). I understand the initial upload needing attention but the subsequent uploads should not need license checking unless this 'tag' value was changed. cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: PROPOSAL: debian/control file to include new License: field
On Tue, Feb 21, 2006 at 12:10:27PM +0100, Michael Koch wrote: > On Tue, Feb 21, 2006 at 04:58:07AM -0500, Kevin Mark wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2006 at 10:48:30AM +0100, Thomas Viehmann wrote: > > Hi Thomas, > > as I just wrote to Joerge, I am not refering to the initial upload of a > > brand-new package which warrants such attention, but the upload for bug > > fixes and new upstream. If someone uploads Bash, its a pretty safe bet > > that the license is not going to change but if it did, all that would be > > required is to change this 'tag' and then have an automated check > > compare 'tag' with 'oldtag' and flag this upload as requireing a license > > re-cert. > > In your example the package doesnt even hit the NEW queue as long as no > binary package name changes. Hi Michael, as I just emailed, my brain is addled at the moment so I did not represent an accurate senario involving NEW. There are 2 cases: a brand new packages and any subsequent upload to NEW. I expect the brand new package to get a through inspection, but once it would be 'tag'ed, it should not need a re-examination until the 'tag' value was different from previous uploads to NEW. Cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: PROPOSAL: debian/control file to include new License: field
On Tue, Feb 21, 2006 at 08:34:22AM +, Ross Burton wrote: > On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 02:45 -0500, Kevin Mark wrote: > > would it provide any automation or easier processing for the NEW > > queue(ftpmasters)? > > I'd assume part of the FTP masters checking is actually verifying the > license specified in debian/copyright is the license actually used by > the source, and that there are no other licenses. This wouldn't change > that. > > > would it allow for reducing package size by removing > > license text from all packages and having them installed in a seperate > > essential package stored in a canonical location > > (/usr/share/doc/dfsg-license-texts/) (dfsg-license-texts.deb) and have a > > file-license.txt to list which files are licensed under which license? > > We already have this, debian/copyright generally only contains a > paragraph or so of common licenses, and then points to the complete > license in /usr/share/common-licenses/. > Hi Ross, after enough subliminal hinting, I re-examined this [0], I came to the conclusion, that my intension of finding a labour-saving idea would in all likelyhood not save any labour as there are n tests and 1 more test is not going to impact the time or effort required to process a NEW queue entry. I guess some things are bound to resist optimization ?! Cheers, Kev [0] http://ftp-master.debian.org/REJECT-FAQ.html ps. did you once wear an orange jumpsuit x-) -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Marking BTS spam
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, Feb 21, 2006 at 01:07:39PM -0700, Shaun Jackman wrote: > Is it possible to mark a particular message to the BTS (as in > [EMAIL PROTECTED]) as spam? This information could be used for > filtering the web page reports, or possibly training the spam filter. > > Thanks! > Shaun Hi Shaun, there was added a 'button' on all bug-number pages to 'mark as spam' on near the bottom but IIRC it was marked as an experimental project to only collect data for future use. If this has been implemented and affect filtering, I guess the list-master would know. I guess some script-foo could be used to 'click' the spam 'button' on the web page but not my me x-) Cheers, Kev - -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFD+3kXv8UcC1qRZVMRAqXsAKCaAwqlev7n+s+dtTSVHRGGPpIVMQCgklDs SEmnWZy2Yfxxc0eerTl5VzE= =++YD -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Marking BTS spam
On Wed, Feb 22, 2006 at 08:20:45AM +0100, Nico Golde wrote: > Hi, > * Kevin Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-02-22 07:51]: > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2006 at 01:07:39PM -0700, Shaun Jackman wrote: > > > Is it possible to mark a particular message to the BTS (as in > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]) as spam? This information could be used for > > > filtering the web page reports, or possibly training the spam filter. > > > > > there was added a 'button' on all bug-number pages to 'mark as spam' on > > near the bottom but IIRC it was marked as an experimental project to > > only collect data for future use. If this has been implemented and > > affect filtering, I guess the list-master would know. I guess some > > script-foo could be used to 'click' the spam 'button' on the web page > > but not my me x-) > > I also had the idea of making it available via mail so I can > make a shortcut for mutt/ng and a little shell script. Don't > know what happened in the meantime. > Regards Nico Hi Nico, as a mutt user, I'd happily look for a mutt addition to click a few keys to help kill evil spam ! Cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Marking BTS spam
On Wed, Feb 22, 2006 at 08:20:45AM +0100, Nico Golde wrote: > Hi, > * Kevin Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-02-22 07:51]: > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2006 at 01:07:39PM -0700, Shaun Jackman wrote: > > > Is it possible to mark a particular message to the BTS (as in > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]) as spam? This information could be used for > > > filtering the web page reports, or possibly training the spam filter. > > > > > there was added a 'button' on all bug-number pages to 'mark as spam' on > > near the bottom but IIRC it was marked as an experimental project to > > only collect data for future use. If this has been implemented and > > affect filtering, I guess the list-master would know. I guess some > > script-foo could be used to 'click' the spam 'button' on the web page > > but not my me x-) > > I also had the idea of making it available via mail so I can > make a shortcut for mutt/ng and a little shell script. Don't > know what happened in the meantime. > Regards Nico Hi Nico, I just had an interesting idea to implement a way to get spam deleted from @debian.org. Create an email address say [EMAIL PROTECTED] You simply bounce/forward a debian.org email address to this address. A script associated with [EMAIL PROTECTED] parses the email and determines which mailing list it came from and then it will delete this mail from the archives and add the email to a 'spam' queue for spamassassin to learn. It requires interested humans to patrol their email and send in 'bug reports' on their @debian.org mailing lists. Cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: More polls and social pressure
On Wed, Feb 22, 2006 at 09:43:23AM +0100, Raphael Hertzog wrote: > [ Reply-to debian-project ] > > Hi everybody, > > given the size of the project, it's very difficult for any of us to > evaluate the popularity of random ideas/opinions in a short time frame. > Jeroen (jvw) recently conducted two informal polls (vi-tiny vs elvis, and > maintainer field for ubuntu) and I liked those. > > My idea would be to officialize a "weekly consultation" of the developers. > Devotee (the voting software) may need to be modified to allow for several > votes in a single mail. Each week a mail to d-d-a would contain the > results of the vote of the previous week together with the new set of > polls for the current week. Hi Raphael, Ohh. a weekly pool! just like /.! ;-) Where is the Cmdr Taco option? Or maybe the Manoj or Aj Option! Didn't Aj impliment a poll on his blog already? Can't wait to see to what great Flam^H^H^HDiscussions this will initiate! Cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: the latest gnome
Hi TB, On Thu, Mar 02, 2006 at 01:07:03PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: > > The latest gnome (2.12.2 according to Desktop>About GNOME) has, like > all previous "up"grades, disabled my preference for emacs-style > editing in forms, etc. It used to be in the Keyboard Preferences > dialog, but as I have become accustomed to seeing, the latest version > has removed more features, including this one. > > I feel a little like that Star Trek episode where Dr. Crusher keeps > finding that people are vanishing, until she's left in a little bubble > of a universe all by herself. hehe. > > In any case, since the latest gnome has also disabled the help system > (or rather, the most up-to-date manual is the accessibility guide for > 2.8 and the user's guide for 2.6), where has the feature moved to this > week? I am a Gnome user(shutter) and I always thought that 'upgrade' meant getting more goodies(featureitis) but with Gnome the opposite is true. If I was writing a program and someone reduced the api, I'd want a warning so as to know how to workaround or change how I do stuff. If 'upgrades' in Gnome are going to remove something, I think there should be something obvious like a document placed on the desktop saying 'gnome_2.12.2.removed.features' and explaining what was removed and how to work around it based upon the functionality in the last version. Users should also read stuff in /usr/share/doc/ but many users dont as users just expect upgrade more or less to fix stuff, not remove features. Cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: ITP: ldtp -- LDTP is the Linux Desktop Testing Project
On Sun, Mar 05, 2006 at 03:45:19PM +0530, Soumyadip Modak wrote: > Package: wnpp > Severity: wishlist > > * Package name: ldtp > Version : x.y.z > Upstream Author : Name <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > * URL : http://www.example.org/ > * License : (GPL, LGPL, BSD, MIT/X, etc.) > Description : LDTP is the Linux Desktop Testing Project Hi Soumyadip, version, upstream author,url and license info is missing. Cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Unidentified subject!
On Wed, Mar 08, 2006 at 06:35:59AM -0800, John Gee wrote: > marc writes: > If nothing else "Joseph Smidt" at least you seem to be someone who > cares enough about Debian to spend your time contemplating about it. But > this is a meritacrosy, and you are not a developer. I refer you to your > January post, no develpor, no merit. > Cheers, Hi John, free software uses/provides freedom. You do not have to be a developer to get an idea put into action. Look at Ubuntu: one guy with a vision + some cash + developers = new distro. Getting this done with out the cash is harder but not impossible. If you have a good enought idea and the freedom to use and modify existing code and can convince folks to follow it, who knows where it can lead... Cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: For those who care about stable updates
On Fri, Mar 10, 2006 at 09:43:22PM +0100, Adrian von Bidder wrote: > It's sad, yes, but I think it's just the way people work. Debian is a city > now, not a village anymore - lots of people know lots of other people not > very well or not at all. This probably includes people in important > functions, although the various face to face meetings have improved this in > some areas. Right now we're trying to cope with city problems using > village methods - has not worked in the Real World, won't work in an online > community. Hi Adrian, if there is technical committee for arbitrating technical difference, I'd suggest a duty added to the DPL position: social mediator. Someone would email [EMAIL PROTECTED] which would be a special address forwarded to the DPL([EMAIL PROTECTED]) that would be encrypted with a DPL public key as to provide privacy. One party would email the problem and the mediator would send an encrypted email to (a leader of a group or the particular person) asking for a conference on a private irc channel with no logging and such. Each party would represent their side and the DPL would try to workout something. After the meeting everyone would agree to not discuss anything in public and only redress furthur problems by arranging another private irc session. Cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: For those who care about stable updates
On Sat, Mar 11, 2006 at 08:52:53AM +0100, Adrian von Bidder wrote: > On Saturday 11 March 2006 03:27, Kevin Mark wrote: > [DPL as mediator] > > The DPL already could do that. The DPL probably in the past *did* step in > in some cases behind the scenes. There's no reason for the technical > overhead of a mediator@ email alias - there's leader, and people who trust > the DPL to be able to mediate conflicts can reach him there. > > Mediation can only work if all parties accept the mediator as a person of > respect/authority who is capabable of working out a fair solution and > accept that a mediator will help. Otherwise, it'll be just an additional > party in the debate - no win. > > > After the meeting everyone would agree to not discuss anything in public > > and only redress further problems by arranging another private irc > > session. > > Hmm. I agree with you that solving these problems is behind the scenes > work. But I think a solution worked out by a mediator ought to be > published, because often enough the problem is also the subject of frequent > discussions and flamewars, often also between people not actually involved > in the problem (and thus the mediation.) Mediation is about finding a > solution, not about blaming anybody, so publication of the mediation's > result should be constructive instead of 'he was guilty'. Hi Adrian, I would agree as long as the statement is worded to both parties agreement. Would it also be useful to start a parallel document to 'Debian [technical] Policy' to address possible future situations or would it make sense to have one policy document and add a section? cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: NEW queue backing up again -- ftpmasters, any explanation or comment?
On Mon, Mar 13, 2006 at 10:49:39PM -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote: > Petter Reinholdtsen dijo [Mon, Mar 13, 2006 at 11:00:47AM +0100]: > > > The mirror split is a complicated endeavour. From what I understood, > > > the NEW queue was put on hold on purpose until the split is > > > complete. > > > > Ouch. If that is true, I hope ftpmasters will announce it to the > > developers, as a blocked NEW hinders development of Debian and should > > not we a surprise. An announcement would at least give us some idea > > on when the NEW holding will end, and let us plan ahead. > > > > It blocks my development at least, as I normally want to make sure one > > level of dependencies are in the archive and doing well before I move > > on and upload the next level of dependencies. Blocked NEW stops all > > progress in this case, and I spend time on other things while I wait. > > Of course, I don't know your exact case or situation... But I think > you are overreacting. It blocks your development? While the FTPmasters > have their systems ready, why don't you set up a local apt repository > with all of your new stuff, so it doesn't block you anymore? Yes, > waiting and pinging them is annoying and robs some precious > time... But not much more than that. Specially once you know they are > not out there just to make you more miserable ;-) Hi Gunnar, I think that alot of this issue is over communication and status. Like those ---Mark-- messages in the messages log. If someone differentiated it into a simple triaged state: unseen, seem and expect to process soon and seen and requires more processing, it may alleviate some anxiety -- or maybe not. But you bring up an intersting issue: that of blocking developement and the intent of developers to get stuff in debian proper. The intent of the new queue and ftpmaster is to get stuff into the debian unstable queue and to make progress in getting issues resolved towards making a stable release. But your idea sparked a differnet idea: What if you make a tiny repository of currently available unstable debian package based upon dependencies AND the unofficial package in the new queue that would be used to allow people to experiment with these package in a way like an unoffical experimental branch. This would not stop the packages in the new queue from being examined but would allow experimenatal users to test your work and give you feedback before the processing is done. This would be probably closest to the marillat repo. The ftpmasters job is to get a package in Debian but make sure it is dfsg-free and not laden with various bug: run-time,compile-time, arch-dependant... among other things. But while it is in the new queue, time is wasting not having it getting debuged with other needed bits based upon depends that are already in debian and if there was an unoffical testing ground it may help. I'd call it people.debian.net/~$username/ because it would be keyed to each devs own packages that is the new queue and the .net because it would unoffical (as in possibly not dfsg or ftpmaster checked). As an example: package 'one' is in the new queue but depends on two, three and four. if two, three and four are in unstable, then you mirror those to people.debian.net/~joe/ and also have 'one' from new. Now someone can add this repo to their source list and install and test stuff while it is being examined in new. The only thing I dont know about are all the details of package numbering and versioning, possible upgradability to unstable, and build-dep and dependency issue in the Packages and Sources files. But I'm sure folks can figure out that stuff. This is not reinventing the wheel, but just making it more convient for users and devs to get stuff tested before it gets processed by new. Cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: NEW queue backing up again -- ftpmasters, any explanation or comment?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Simon, On Tue, Mar 14, 2006 at 02:48:18PM +0100, Simon Richter wrote: > Hi, > > Kevin Mark wrote: > > >If someone differentiated > >it into a simple triaged state: unseen, seem and expect to process soon > >and seen and requires more processing, it may alleviate some anxiety -- > >or maybe not. > > Hm, I am wondering how the internal communication between the ftpmasters > works (i.e. "I am checking this package now", or "Functionality check > complete, needs license check"), and if that is sufficiently formalized > such that a "current status" column in the summary page could be > generated easily from that. > > I would suspect there to be some standardized, if not formalized, > workflow that can be applied to 95% of all packages at least. only a small percentage of packages stay in the new queue for a long time (like stuff that is in the marillat repo). that would leave the rest, as you say are the 95% that are only sojourning there for some short stay. That would mean that 5% of them are in the 'checked, need further processing' catagory which would need a note specificy what need to be checked. then the <10% that are added on a montly basis as new and the 85% which would require 'basic processing'. If any of these are done, it just help communication between ftpmaster and devs. > > >But your idea sparked a differnet idea: What if you make a tiny > >repository of currently available unstable debian package based upon > >dependencies AND the unofficial package in the new queue that would be > >used to allow people to experiment with these package in a way like an > >unoffical experimental branch. > > The main reason for the NEW queue is the US export legislation. If it > were legal to make packages immediately downloadable, it would be done. huh? the packages have an upsteam which must be accessible as per policy, so I guess they are open to legal issue as well. And there have been, iirc, packages in debian that were removed becuase of issues witout legal incident (thankfully) once it was determined. > > >This would not stop the packages in the > >new queue from being examined but would allow experimenatal users to > >test your work and give you feedback before the processing is done. > > Sure, that's why I also upload my packages to my people.d.o page when I > upload to Debian. But then I am responsible for following the US law, > given that people.d.o is located in the US AFAIK, not the ftpmasters. is there a host that would allow this? maybe set it up with marillat or ? how does ubuntu do it, as they support non-free stuff? and, so is it normall to but possibly, buggy, but not-us-export-problem packages in new also in p.d.o/~USER? cheers, Kev - -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEF4S1v8UcC1qRZVMRAp3yAJ421hGZPATRib62HnsBU/JClVMADwCePEBi axTnrMSJb9MQba6x5fnf8Wc= =3WTj -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [desktop] ¿Dead?
On Thu, Mar 16, 2006 at 06:14:26PM -0400, Janez Rabzelj Zappone wrote: > Hi, the project is dead? > No, this is not an ex-project. It is sleeping! Not unlike the Norwegian blue parrot! Cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: NEW queue and ftp-master approval
On Mon, Jan 24, 2005 at 10:28:25PM +0100, Goswin von Brederlow wrote: > Bartosz Fenski aka fEnIo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > Hello. > > > > Our NEW queue is quite big and time needed to get package into unstable is > > rather long. Nothing wrong with that for me, I know that ftp-masters are > > busy and that approving these packages is very important and responsible > > task. > > > > But there are two kind of packages in NEW queue. > > > > "Totally" new packages and old one that only incorporate new binary > > package(s). These old packages has already source package in archive. > > > > I think the latter should be handled first, and then if ftp-master has > > some spare time he/she could handle totally new packages. > > I think ftp-master already has a more complex prioritizing than > that. Adding a new kernel images deb tends to be real fast (with > exceptions), adding a new deb to old source reasonable fast and > completly new source can take forever if questionable (e.g. mplyer). > > > Any comments on that? > > Why is manual intervention needed at all? > > On a recent discussion about this on irc several things were said that > have to be done for NEW packages, e.g. inform some U.S. government > agency about the new deb, add an override entry into the db. The only > thing that wasn't easily scriptable was: > > ftp-master might reject the new package name > > > Someone said ftp-master might want to check the source for the NEW deb > but that would apply to any source upload just as well IMHO. Debian > already trusts DDs to not mess up existing debs so it should be simple > to trust them not to mess up when splitting debs or adding more to an > existing source. > > > Overall, in my eyes, the question becomes: Does Debian trust DDs not > to add debs with silly names to existing sources? I think we should add a deparment of silly walks and a department of silly names for packages! Hopefully Mr. Cleese could head it! Vim is now called vim-vim-voo-voo-vee. -Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ "Have you mooed today?"... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
debian development diagram: major rework!
Hi all you folks who have exercised your fingers and eyes because of 'vancouvor', In my quest to see how things work, I have made some major revision to my diagram. http://debian.home.pipeline.com/ the new diagram is newdebian2.png any comment appreciated (before the whole shebang is outdated) Also, in lieu of the recent events, I have my own 2 yen. *reducing mirroring of archs reduces cost and load on mirrors but this does not remove load on debian ftpmasters,security or release teams: arch support decisions can not be based upon downloads or availability: *there are few s390 built compared to x86 by many orders of magnitude. This goes for m68k,sparc,alpha and other. *some folks use apt-proxy and such which makes non-i386 counts far less accurate beside the fact of woody popcon. *there is stuff to get on ebay or things like the trenton computer fair that will be available for many years *people in NPO,school, or the 3rd world will have i386,i486,P I,P II, P III, P IV while IBM or HP will buy/lease 64 engines. so do we drop x86-32bit? Most of the x86 packages are i386 based but we could bump it up to i686 for etch or 64bit for etch+1 making many folks happy. but then what about the other folks? *embedded arch - # packages in each arch is not the same. e.g. silo will never be built for x86,lilo will not be build for sparc: This is part of the release process! ways to reduce load on release team: all archs do not have 100% of the packages for i386, so why can't we make some less used packages not be RC for the slower arch maybe not build some resource-problematic packages for slower arch. Also, if an arch is mostly server or embedded, why build all non-(server|embedded) packages for it (gnome-arm,kino-mips). And for my last piece de resistance: communication improvement through email and documentation: add virtual packages in the BTS for: maintainer, teams, developers, buildd people USE CASES: a maintainer notice a buildd is down, makes a bug report on 'arm-buildd' which is sent to that person and maybe other folks - release manager, dpl, etc maintainer is not responding to patches, so user files bug on $MAINTAINER and is forwarded to DPL or DAMs arch needs buildd and no response from release team, so add a bug on RELASE-team and forward to DPL maintainer is not responding to security announcement or the package is not keeping up with upstream and a NMU is needed, a bug is filed because of the non-responiveness. many NUM bug's should lead to a maintainer being asked why s/he can't keep up. which may lead to packakge being abandoned, removed, co-maintained. a packages is stuck in NEW, the maintainer is not getting any answers, so files a bug against FTPmaster and this is forwarded to DPL etc. anyway. I cant wait for sarge, thanks to everyone who made it possible! may Debian live long and prosper! (funny trekie hand expression here) -Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! _, _, ,'`. `$$' `$$' `. ,' $$ $$`' $$ $$ _, _ ,d$$$g$$ ,d$$$b. $$,d$$$b.`$$' g$b.`$$,d$$b. ,$P' `$$ ,$P' `Y$. $$$' `$$ $$ "' `$$ $$$' `$$ $$'$$ $$' `$$ $$'$$ $$ ,g$$ $$' $$ $$ $$ $$g$$ $$ $$ $$ ,$P" $$ $$$$ $$,$$ $$. $$,$P $$ $$' ,$$ $$$$ `$g. ,$$$ `$$._ _., $$ _,g$P' $$ `$b. ,$$$ $$$$ `Y$$P'$$. `YP',P"' ,$$. `Y$$P'$$.$$. ,$$. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
ubuntu!
Hi tired and weary folks, after such long and heated dicussions, I, ironically, think Debian needs UBUNTU (at least the african concept of humanity towards others and reconciliation)! Lets work towards a solution together and help all of our users and all of our porters and all of our maintainers, etc. find common ground and have a round of virtual beer! Cheers, Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! _, _, ,'`. `$$' `$$' `. ,' $$ $$`' $$ $$ _, _ ,d$$$g$$ ,d$$$b. $$,d$$$b.`$$' g$b.`$$,d$$b. ,$P' `$$ ,$P' `Y$. $$$' `$$ $$ "' `$$ $$$' `$$ $$'$$ $$' `$$ $$'$$ $$ ,g$$ $$' $$ $$ $$ $$g$$ $$ $$ $$ ,$P" $$ $$$$ $$,$$ $$. $$,$P $$ $$' ,$$ $$$$ `$g. ,$$$ `$$._ _., $$ _,g$P' $$ `$b. ,$$$ $$$$ `Y$$P'$$. `YP',P"' ,$$. `Y$$P'$$.$$. ,$$. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: HOWTO Help (was: Debian DPL Debate Comments)
On Wed, Mar 23, 2005 at 01:24:49AM +0100, Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña wrote: > On Tue, Mar 22, 2005 at 10:25:51PM +0100, Frans Pop wrote: > > On Tuesday 22 March 2005 22:08, Alexander Schmehl wrote: > (...) > > > AFAIK we don't have a good "What you can do to help us" documentation > > > (please correct me, if I am wrong). > > No, we don't have one. > > > > > How about http://www.debian.org/devel/join/ ? > > Which is linked from the main debian.org page (bottom left: "Help Debian") > > That is probably too terse. I think that Alexander is talking about an > expanded document directed towards end users that would like a step-by-step > guide of what can they do to help the Debian project. > > I would certainly find proper a good document on: > > - how to contribute help in fixing bugs > - how to help in the different translation efforts > - how to get involved with local Debian organisations in your country > (listing those that do exist, like Debian UK or Debian Spain) > etc.. Hi, I think that [1] and [2] are good examples. -Kev [1] http://www.gnu.org/projects/help-wanted.html [2] http://www.gnu.org/help/help.html -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! _, _, ,'`. `$$' `$$' `. ,' $$ $$`' $$ $$ _, _ ,d$$$g$$ ,d$$$b. $$,d$$$b.`$$' g$b.`$$,d$$b. ,$P' `$$ ,$P' `Y$. $$$' `$$ $$ "' `$$ $$$' `$$ $$'$$ $$' `$$ $$'$$ $$ ,g$$ $$' $$ $$ $$ $$g$$ $$ $$ $$ ,$P" $$ $$$$ $$,$$ $$. $$,$P $$ $$' ,$$ $$$$ `$g. ,$$$ `$$._ _., $$ _,g$P' $$ `$b. ,$$$ $$$$ `Y$$P'$$. `YP',P"' ,$$. `Y$$P'$$.$$. ,$$. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: debian development diagram: major rework!
On Wed, Mar 23, 2005 at 09:05:28PM +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote: > Le dimanche 20 mars 2005 à 08:48 -0500, Kevin Mark a écrit : > > Hi all you folks who have exercised your fingers and eyes because of > > 'vancouvor', > > In my quest to see how things work, I have made some major revision to > > my diagram. > > http://debian.home.pipeline.com/ > > the new diagram is newdebian2.png > > any comment appreciated (before the whole shebang is outdated) > > Just a comment: the ACCEPTED mail is sent once the package is accepted; > your diagram leads to thinking it is sent by the maintainer himself. ACK. cheers, Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: etch release target: SELinux?? (was: Re: Bits (Nybbles?) from the Vancouver release team meeting)
On Mon, Apr 11, 2005 at 09:46:37PM +0200, Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña wrote: > On Mon, Apr 11, 2005 at 11:50:23PM +1000, Russell Coker wrote: > > > > For people who don't use SE Linux the support in those programs will only > > take > > a few K of disk space and will not give a performance overhead. > > Given the fact that the current standard installation installs both gcc, > gdb and other development packages weighting more than that (see #301138, > which nobody wants to fix) Sorry to interupt, just got a stupid idea, if as Javier suggests, there are bugs that no one wants to fix, why not try an idea called a 'bounty' (these have been floating around by 'certain' groups x-) ). The idea is to either make these: a Debian 'bug' check ala Knuth, actaully dinero, a mention on a webpage, an invite to a local gathering of the debian tribe in your area, a gift certificate from ThinkGeek, a beer-of-the-month club subscription or something to get the cat accross the great tundra. now back to your regularly schedule programming Cheers, Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! _, _, ,'`. `$$' `$$' `. ,' $$ $$`' $$ $$ _, _ ,d$$$g$$ ,d$$$b. $$,d$$$b.`$$' g$b.`$$,d$$b. ,$P' `$$ ,$P' `Y$. $$$' `$$ $$ "' `$$ $$$' `$$ $$'$$ $$' `$$ $$'$$ $$ ,g$$ $$' $$ $$ $$ $$g$$ $$ $$ $$ ,$P" $$ $$$$ $$,$$ $$. $$,$P $$ $$' ,$$ $$$$ `$g. ,$$$ `$$._ _., $$ _,g$P' $$ `$b. ,$$$ $$$$ `Y$$P'$$. `YP',P"' ,$$. `Y$$P'$$.$$. ,$$. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: lintian & linda (was: Automatic testing of Debian packages)
On Tue, Apr 12, 2005 at 09:20:28AM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote: > Le mardi 12 avril 2005 à 08:31 +0200, Andreas Tille a écrit : > > The reason: "I just rewrite an application because the language it is > > written in." sounds a very stupid reason to me. > > Why? When you don't know Perl, and you feel like improving a software in > Perl is like eating oysters with skiing gloves, rewriting the software > in Python so that you can work on it seems like the best solution. Hi those who breathe life into code, could the 'test' that linda and lintian use be written in a 'common' format -- heaven forfend something like xml x-) just a thought, Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! _, _, ,'`. `$$' `$$' `. ,' $$ $$`' $$ $$ _, _ ,d$$$g$$ ,d$$$b. $$,d$$$b.`$$' g$b.`$$,d$$b. ,$P' `$$ ,$P' `Y$. $$$' `$$ $$ "' `$$ $$$' `$$ $$'$$ $$' `$$ $$'$$ $$ ,g$$ $$' $$ $$ $$ $$g$$ $$ $$ $$ ,$P" $$ $$$$ $$,$$ $$. $$,$P $$ $$' ,$$ $$$$ `$g. ,$$$ `$$._ _., $$ _,g$P' $$ `$b. ,$$$ $$$$ `Y$$P'$$. `YP',P"' ,$$. `Y$$P'$$.$$. ,$$. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: etch release target: SELinux?? (was: Re: Bits (Nybbles?) from the Vancouver release team meeting)
On Tue, Apr 12, 2005 at 03:24:48AM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: > Kevin Mark wrote: > > > Given the fact that the current standard installation installs both gcc, > > > gdb and other development packages weighting more than that (see #301138, > > > which nobody wants to fix) > > Sorry to interupt, just got a stupid idea, if as Javier suggests, there > > are bugs that no one wants to fix, why not try an idea called a 'bounty' > > If you'll read the log to #301138, you'll see not much evidence of not > wanting to fix it now, and a lot of evidence of people who want to fix > it, but do not care to make such a large change and destabilise what > sarge installs this close to a release. > > -- > see shy jo Hi Joey, I did not delve into the details of what you suggests is a change that would seriously affect Sarge and its release schedule. I was just thinking about possible other means to get years old bugs or other release stoppers from getting some looking at. If a tee-shirt with 'I fixed the oldest bug in Debian, and all I got was this lousey tee-shirt' helps to motivate folks -- great by me! And great for our users and Debian! Cheers, Kev signature.asc Description: Digital signature
www.debian.org and users information
Hi DD folks, Sarge is now approaching zero kelvin and folks are scrambing to get the last few bugs squashed. I was recently thinking about why the non-clued folks bash Debian with incomplete or inaccurate facts and a way to address that. I think there should be a section on the main page that contains links to cluefull faq to clear the FUD and to shed light on these issues. Here is a short list of some things that I would include on the front page: * what's the difference between stable, testing and unstable and who should use them * Why was past releases took so long and how these issues are being addressed * the plan for the next Debian release: etch * What are the FAQs about Xorg in debian * a guide to the new debian installer * the faqs about CDD (custom debian distributions) * Important Debian news: Sarge is frozen -- what it means to new and current users Upgrade notes for woody users * a guide to sidegrading rpm based distro to Debian * What is Ubuntu and how does it relate to Debian * What is Knoppix and how does it relate to Debian * What is Mephis and how does it relate to Debian * SATA FAQs * the future of documentation that is under the GFDL in Debian * the future of binary firmware in Debian * Ways to install Debian My reasoning is that while some of there are addressed somewhere on the website, people tend to be lazy. We should put this info front and center so a quick look will immediately lead them to good informed facts. -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! `$' $' $ $ _ ,d$$$g$ ,d$$$b. $,d$$$b`$' g$b $,d$$b ,$P' `$ ,$P' `Y$ $$' `$ $ "' `$ $$' `$ $$ $ $$g$ $ $ $ ,$P"" $ $$ `$g. ,$$ `$$._ _. $ _,g$P $ `$b. ,$$ $$ `Y$$P'$. `YP $$$P"' ,$. `Y$$P'$ $. ,$. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: debian sarge is 3.2 or 4 ?
On Sun, May 08, 2005 at 01:10:41AM -0500, Peter Samuelson wrote: > > [Andrea Mennucc] > > me, I do my part of the work in Debian > > > > and nobody ever contacted me regarding the choice of the number > > What that...? Why on earth would you think you should be contacted > before this sort of decision is made? Is there any formal policy as to how and when these release issues are decided? (regarding codename or release version numbers)? I found this email snippet[1] on -release (which seems the logical 'where') "Debian is not a democracy. Debian is a volounteer organisation. The essential difference is: in a democracy, everybody can directly influence the decision. In Debian, the person who does something can tell how he does it (in most cases - and within the limit of the Social Contract, the DFSG and similar documents). ajt is release manager, he does the release, so he decides how he calls it." -vbi that would suggest that its the RM who has decided such issues in the past unilaterilly. cheers, -Kev [1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-release/2004/01/msg00029.html -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! `$' $' $ $ _ ,d$$$g$ ,d$$$b. $,d$$$b`$' g$b $,d$$b ,$P' `$ ,$P' `Y$ $$' `$ $ "' `$ $$' `$ $$ $ $$g$ $ $ $ ,$P"" $ $$ `$g. ,$$ `$$._ _. $ _,g$P $ `$b. ,$$ $$ `Y$$P'$. `YP $$$P"' ,$. `Y$$P'$ $. ,$. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: debian sarge is 3.2 or 4 ?
On Mon, May 09, 2005 at 03:02:32AM -0500, Peter Samuelson wrote: > > [Kevin Mark] > > that would suggest that its the RM who has decided such issues in the > > past unilaterilly. > > Conventional wisdom is that release management involves so much > drudgery and so little recognition that the *least* we can do is let > the release manager decide on codenames and version numbers. Hi Peter, I have no difficulty with a decision being made unilaterially. I'd just prefer to have it stated <> so that people wont debate something like this near the end of the release cycle and so that folks who are creating dead-tree media would not have worry that things wont be in sync, which would be somewhat detrimental to Debian as not being organized and professional. cheers, Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! `$' $' $ $ _ ,d$$$g$ ,d$$$b. $,d$$$b`$' g$b $,d$$b ,$P' `$ ,$P' `Y$ $$' `$ $ "' `$ $$' `$ $$ $ $$g$ $ $ $ ,$P"" $ $$ `$g. ,$$ `$$._ _. $ _,g$P $ `$b. ,$$ $$ `Y$$P'$. `YP $$$P"' ,$. `Y$$P'$ $. ,$. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Regarding unresponsive Debian maintainers
On Tue, May 24, 2005 at 01:46:43AM +0300, Cesar Martinez Izquierdo wrote: > El Martes 24 Mayo 2005 01:42, Cesar Martinez Izquierdo escribió: > > El Martes 24 Mayo 2005 01:27, Thomas Bushnell BSG escribió: > > > Cesar Martinez Izquierdo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > > For example, the maintainer asked for more info, the user submitted the > > > > requested info, and then there was no activity in the BTS for a year. > > > > > > What exactly do you want the maintainer to do in this case? > > > > To solve the bug? > > Clarifying the sentence: > > IMHO, after a year, the bug should have been fixed, otherwise it should be > tagged "help", and ideally the maintainer should write a short explanation > about why he is unable to fix the bug (so that other people can really help > him). > > Cesar Hi Dev folks, Just a thought. How about setting up an aging system for who can fix the bugs. Give the maintainer N time period to act on the bug and then if the maintainer can not fix it or will not fix it, other folks who have a patch should be able to apply to fix it. if the maintainer feels that the patch should not be applyed, there should some authority to hear the pros and cons of the issue and arbitrate the result--would that be the tech commity, app. manag., RM or ? It seems that folks go MIA for legitimate reasons but the package suffers. it seems like allowing someone to come in to fix a package or takeover a packages has to deal with the ego of the maintainer. Folks should be able to let a person who is currently not otherwise involved, take over a package for as long as someone is MIA and if the person say that they want to take it back, then they can ask or maybe suggest that they co-maintain, as both persons should allowed to work on something that they have a passion for. I think that there should be something in the DEV REF that says that the maintaince of a PACKAGE should be #1 and that all maintainers should encouraged to work on any package of an (percieved) MIA programmer. And that when the person is FOUND, that they can hand back the packages with no ego bruises because each person's goal should be the best software, not the fiefdom of a packages. Cheers, Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! `$' $' $ $ _ ,d$$$g$ ,d$$$b. $,d$$$b`$' g$b $,d$$b ,$P' `$ ,$P' `Y$ $$' `$ $ "' `$ $$' `$ $$ $ $$g$ $ $ $ ,$P"" $ $$ `$g. ,$$ `$$._ _. $ _,g$P $ `$b. ,$$ $$ `Y$$P'$. `YP $$$P"' ,$. `Y$$P'$ $. ,$. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Proper use of Replaces
On Sat, May 28, 2005 at 08:35:22AM -0400, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: > On Fri, May 27, 2005 at 06:59:10PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote: > > On Fri, May 27, 2005 at 09:43:26PM -0400, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: > > > I am working on taking over toshutils. One of the things I would like > > > to do is incorporate a patch that updates it from GTK+ to GTK2. The > > > patch came from ALT Linux. > > > > > 1) Setup toshutils-gtk2 to compile binaries to have different names and > > > maybe not have them Conflict. > > > 2) Have both packages use the same binary names, remove the Conflict and > > > set them up to use alternatives. > > > 3) Forget about a GTK+ version and press ahead with a GTK2 only package. > > > 4) Forget about a GTK2 version and press ahead with a GTK+ only package. > > > > > I would like to know what everyone thinks. > > > > Forget about the GTK+ 1.2 version, so we can let that library die? > > > > Good. That is what I wanted to do, but I wasn't sure how it would go > over. Second question, how do handle the version numbering? Increment > only the Debian part of the version and include the GTK2 patch as a > Debian patch? Patch the original source and sort of make my own "new > upstream release" and increment that main version number? > > Also, should I plan this bing uploaded to unstable or experimental? > > -Roberto Hi Steve and Roberto, I noticed that Roberto as a new contributer was unsure as to wheather to keep using gtk 1.x or to move his app to 2.x. Is there any refernce for say RELEASES as to what libraries are to be transitioned to a certain version? I recall seeing RC issues about libmysql being mentioned. Was there somewhere someone could have gone to read about what version was expected to be used in SARGE and thus would have been able to better plan a tranistion for his/her app? Is this just 'general knowledge' in Debian, to any app developer or would this be good to have listsed as a design goal for a release (on the website)? Just curious. Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! `$' $' $ $ _ ,d$$$g$ ,d$$$b. $,d$$$b`$' g$b $,d$$b ,$P' `$ ,$P' `Y$ $$' `$ $ "' `$ $$' `$ $$ $ $$g$ $ $ $ ,$P"" $ $$ `$g. ,$$ `$$._ _. $ _,g$P $ `$b. ,$$ $$ `Y$$P'$. `YP $$$P"' ,$. `Y$$P'$ $. ,$. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
