On Mon, 7 Aug 2000, Deirdre Saoirse wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Aug 2000, Alice wrote:
> > I disagree. We are brought up, educated, socialised in a sexist
> > environment. It pisses me off no end how socialised I have been.
>
> Yes, however, the differences between single and married are pretty
> conclusive. Never-married women are not at the same quality of
> wage gap as married women. This is self-penalization.
How do you mean conclusive? I'm not sure what you are referring to.
There is always going to be a difference between a generic type of woman
who marries and sprogs, and one who doesn't. Figures will always be
skewed because the married woman set includes all the woman who never
wanted a career in the first place. (Without meaning to sound really
down on their choices just because I have difficulty comprehending them).
> > Boys are taught to value themselves, to put themselves forward, to ask
> > high and be negotiated downwards. Girls are taught to listen first, to
> > encourage others, to be modest and that others will look after their
> > interests for them. (Which type is of more value and more productive in a
> > team structure is open for a different debate)
>
> You know, so was I, but I *do* earn as much as men do. I absolutely do not
> believe that nurture (vs. nature) reigns supreme. I do believe that we can
> overcome the handicaps of how we were raised.
Yup. But a slice of the population doesn't have to overcome that
particular obstacle. Course boys are socialised in a totally different
and equally constraining way...but again this is off the thread and
covered in a billion other places.
> > I agree that women are often the ones that do themselves out of the
> > oppurtunities, when they have them, but often this is as a result of the
> > sexist society we were born into.
>
> You know, one of the things that has always bothered me about this: women
> create sexism as much, if not more, than men do. Most of the sexism I've
> encountered has been *from women* telling me that my profession isn't
> feminine. Or that I'll never get married if I wear jeans all the time and
> no makeup. Or how I could be "pretty" if I did thus and so. Crap, all of
> it.
Totally. Not that they necessarily create it in the first place - I don't
know where it came from, and its a bit like that Dilbert cartoon last week
where the interviewee invented ecommerce...
But as for maintaining sexism, and initiating their children into it, and
the peer pressure we face from other girls as we grow up, then yes.
Reminds me of a couple of weekends ago on a hot day during a music
festival. I was sweating away and the idea of whipping my top off came
up. Thing is, I was analysing my response to the idea, and the discomfort
was due to what other women would think of my belly (which betrays my
sedentary job)...I mean I do feel discomfort with my body when its just
guys around (partner etc) but much more so at what my peers would think -
how dumb is that. Stuff to work through on my own methinks.
I am pretty sure that when referring to my own socialisation I included
girls as well as boys in the offender list. However there is most
definitely pressure from men, espec as they are mostly all charmed by a
certain wide-eyed, sweet girlie type, or a rough-n-tumble boy. :(
> I've heard lots of people say that women were forced into roles of caring
> for children for many generations. And they taught the children. And so,
> one has to ask, if the women taught the children, why is it that things
> stayed the same? Because the women taught their children to be sexist.
Sorry, but I think you are excluding a lot that happens outside the home
environment. My parents were pretty cool - both worked and my Mum, for
her generation, was pretty clued up. Don't forget about popular culture
and the education system.
> When women lobby so that men will have a shot of getting custody as often
> or to send women to the sanctions they'd gladly send men to for failure to
> pay child support (here that means stuff like suspending their license or
> going to jail), THEN I will believe that women are NOT for sexism or
> sexist roles.
Yep, and I argue for these things as well. I don't believe women should
get lighter or non custodial sentences for the same crimes as men. I
think men should have rights to paternity leave, and that child custody
should be based on individuals not gender, with no defaults as all. Male
victims of rape should be recognised. What else is there...I dunno. I
agree with you (dull debate huh? ;->) that a lot of "feminists" seem to
want it all one way, but definitely not the majority. I don't think you
should confuse me not specifically mentioning injustices as not caring
about them.
I do however think that more shitty stuff comes in a femalewards
direction.
Women are not angels, but are the biggest victims of are current gender
setup.
> > However there is also a male culture that offers blokes promotions and
> > high salaries rather than women, espec the more feminine ones.
>
> When men are treated as more than just paychecks, this can start changing.
> See paragraph above.
Please expand. Do you mean that women expect men to earn more to support
them? Or that society treats men as though they have nothing to offer
outside the workplace?
> > And women can be the worst for maintaining the status quo, by treating the
> > go-get-em-gals (TM) as scrape-off-shoe material.
>
> This is only a part concession to the sexism inherent in much feminist
> rhetoric.
Poppycock. I just don't feel the need to go on about it. I concede
nothing for the sake of it. What I say is what I truly think. I really
do think that women can be part of the problem. I really do think that
men can be victims of sexism too. But we are talking about a society
where women really do earn less and have less power and get shat on for
trying to be themselves more than men. And where men do make assumptions,
and where there is a place for a "linuxchix" community because women
really do get tired of the abuse that they get in irc/slashdot/workplaces
etc and want to discuss geeky stuff without worrying about whether they
should either pretend to be a guy, or constantly fend off unwelcome
attention and jibes about what does a girl know anyway.
Best wishes,
æ
--
"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage."
Anais Nin
Public Key : http://www.sei.ukshells.co.uk/pubkey.txt
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