On Mon, 7 Aug 2000, Alice wrote:
>
> On Mon, 7 Aug 2000, Deirdre Saoirse wrote:
> > The fact is that women PENALIZE THEMSELVES and that it is, to a large
> > degree, a choice.
>
> I disagree. We are brought up, educated, socialised in a sexist
> environment. It pisses me off no end how socialised I have been.
Yes, however, the differences between single and married are pretty
conclusive. Never-married women are not at the same quality of
wage gap as married women. This is self-penalization.
> Boys are taught to value themselves, to put themselves forward, to ask
> high and be negotiated downwards. Girls are taught to listen first, to
> encourage others, to be modest and that others will look after their
> interests for them. (Which type is of more value and more productive in a
> team structure is open for a different debate)
You know, so was I, but I *do* earn as much as men do. I absolutely do not
believe that nurture (vs. nature) reigns supreme. I do believe that we can
overcome the handicaps of how we were raised.
> I agree that women are often the ones that do themselves out of the
> oppurtunities, when they have them, but often this is as a result of the
> sexist society we were born into.
You know, one of the things that has always bothered me about this: women
create sexism as much, if not more, than men do. Most of the sexism I've
encountered has been *from women* telling me that my profession isn't
feminine. Or that I'll never get married if I wear jeans all the time and
no makeup. Or how I could be "pretty" if I did thus and so. Crap, all of
it.
I've heard lots of people say that women were forced into roles of caring
for children for many generations. And they taught the children. And so,
one has to ask, if the women taught the children, why is it that things
stayed the same? Because the women taught their children to be sexist.
When women lobby so that men will have a shot of getting custody as often
or to send women to the sanctions they'd gladly send men to for failure to
pay child support (here that means stuff like suspending their license or
going to jail), THEN I will believe that women are NOT for sexism or
sexist roles.
> However there is also a male culture that offers blokes promotions and
> high salaries rather than women, espec the more feminine ones.
When men are treated as more than just paychecks, this can start changing.
See paragraph above.
> And women can be the worst for maintaining the status quo, by treating the
> go-get-em-gals (TM) as scrape-off-shoe material.
This is only a part concession to the sexism inherent in much feminist
rhetoric.
> I have found that when at my bravest and most demanding I have
> received what I wanted. At one pay review my boss (a wonderful man
> who berated me for my humility during a project early in my career,
> and sat me down for a couple of hours during a very hectic and late
> stage in the release schedule because I had apologised for failing.
> He recognised that I felt out of my depth and told me why they had
> hired me, and lots of hard to describe things about self development
> and pushing myself forward, and being proactive etc. Stuff that helps
> me still now.), where was I, oh yes, so he asked me what I was
> expecting. This freaked me out - my inclination being to accept what
> I was offered, so I pondered for a while, and decided what the hell,
> and said a lot more than I had expected to get. To my amazement he
> agreed with me, and I received the raise. This is partly why men get
> more - they ask for more - and this is a product of how we are brought
> up, which is gender dependent.
Good for you.
In part, yes. But who DOES that bringing up? A lot of times it is the
women who teach what the roles should be.
> In England (which is all I have to go on) there is such a difference
> between women educated single-sex and mixed. I went to a mixed
> school, and the way I was treated during Maths classes (which I was
> good at) still scares me. That was 10 years ago, and I still feel the
> effects. It was both girls and boys who ostrasised me, who only spoke
> to me when they wanted to copy my homework, who made me feel nerdy,
> and produced this awkward, nervous, stumbling, pathetic figure of a
> woman who is only now learning how to make suggestions and be forward
> during team meetings. I was not like this before I went to high
> school, and a certain environment suggestive of high school can turn
> back the years and knock the wind out of me still today.
In the US, almost all schooling is mixed, thus women go through that all
the time here. And yes, there is a difference in attitude about math and
science in single-sex vs. mixed schools. No question. There shouldn't be,
but there is.
> In summary (because I have rambled) the quantitative, meterable
> differences between women and men in the professional world can be
> attributed to the sexist society we were raised in.
All these differences *can* be overcome, at least by the woman. There may
be jobs she can't excel in due to the sexism of others.
> Lets never stop fighting for a better world for our daughters.
As my fiance says, "so, should we start reading Honor Harrington to our
daughter in the crib?" But with our luck, we'd have a girly girl whose
career goal was to get married and have children. ;)
--
_Deirdre * http://www.sfknit.org * http://www.deirdre.net
"We can always count on the British. Except for the Revolutionary War
they've been perfect." -- Mel Brooks, on the first Concorde flight since
the Paris crash.
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