Well, every time I see “PMC” and it appears from the context that one person is meant, I’m confused, and I have doubts about whether the author knows what they mean. I applaud Greg for complaining. What’s wrong with “PMCM” for an individual?
David Jencks Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 7, 2024, at 8:47 PM, Joe Witt <joew...@apache.org> wrote: > > Greg > > It isnt wrong to correct improper usage particularly when there is a > specific case that caused actual confusion. > > That should be done by the person that was confused and with the person > that caused confusion. > > Joe > > >> On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at 10:31 PM Greg Stein <gst...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> I have witnessed actual confusion, approximately of the form "a PMC >> approved this request". Digging in, it turned out that it was a single >> person on a PMC, not the committee approving the request. >> >> So, no ... it isn't just being a pedant. And even if it was: why is it >> wrong to correct the use of terminology? Why is it okay to misuse the >> acronym "PMC"? >> >> I do not believe that this is cultural. The acronym "PMC" is not a word in >> *any* language. So we're talking about how people are *taught* what the >> acronym means. My point is to teach people it means "committee" and it >> never means "member". That is a simple fact that has zero cultural >> implications. >> >> Cheers, >> -g >> >> >>> On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 10:02 AM larry mccay <lmc...@apache.org> wrote: >>> >>> I'd be interested to know whether there is any real semantic danger here >> or >>> whether it is a flavor of Misophonia. >>> I've personally never misunderstood someone in the context of their >>> conversation. >>> >>> If there is a real danger like a decision being made for a whole >> community >>> based on someone calling themselves a PMC and it is misunderstood to mean >>> they are speaking as the entire PMC then perhaps we should rename it and >>> make it more explicit. Of course, no one will stop using PMC either >>> correctly or incorrectly - at least for a very long time. >>> >>> I'd also note that if a lot of folks are referring to themselves as an >>> inappropriate acronym that perhaps there is a missing acronym for what >> they >>> mean. >>> It seems folks are looking for something more precise and important >>> sounding. >>> >>> "Member" may be too generic and overloaded (even within Apache itself) to >>> express what they are trying to say. >>> ICM - Individual Committee Member? >>> PCM - Project Committee Member? Too close... >>> >>> Anyway, my opinion is that we either accept it and move on or add >> something >>> else. Trying to shove some semantic minutiae down everyone's throats >> isn't >>> likely worth the effort. >>> >>> >>>> On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 10:19 AM Dave Fisher <w...@apache.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jul 2, 2024, at 11:52 PM, Christofer Dutz < >>> christofer.d...@c-ware.de> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I mean … I think I have never really been confused if someone used >>> “PMC” >>>> or “PMC member” as from the context it was clear. >>>>> What however I really hate to see in emails is people using short >> forms >>>> LMAA, WTF, IANAL, STFU, … this list is long and obviously I listed the >>> ones >>>> I knew. >>>>> Quite often when people use these short forms, I feel a bit excluded >>> and >>>> have to search or ask what they mean, so if we freak out about people >>> using >>>> the short form PMC, then I would also argue to freak out on using other >>>> short forms ;-) >>>> >>>> No disrespect but doesn’t Deutsch combine words to make longer words so >>>> that PMC Member should according to Google Translate be "Mitglied des >>>> Projektmanagementausschusses”?! Acronyms nein! Composition ja! >> Verzeihen >>>> Sie mir meine kleine aber! >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> Von: Yuanbo Liu <liuyuanb...@gmail.com> >>>>> Datum: Mittwoch, 3. Juli 2024 um 05:24 >>>>> An: general@incubator.apache.org <general@incubator.apache.org> >>>>> Betreff: Re: PMC is a committee >>>>> Also it's driving me crazy to see native speakers saying "...not...no >>>>> more". Teachers tell me it is supposed to be "any more".. >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 11:03 AM tison <wander4...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> ... and yes. For non-native speakers, it's possible to feel less >>>>>> uncomfortable to use "PMC" as an abbr. to PMC members. Just .. as an >>>>>> opaque term. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> tison. >>>>>> >>>>>> Xuanwo <xua...@apache.org> 于2024年7月2日周二 19:56写道： >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This thread reminds me of tison's proposal that use "Maintainer" >>>> instead >>>>>> of "PMC Member". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/xsjojmksqtnsdjcg0yf4vz0xy82llhmw >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 3, 2024, at 10:04, Jiacai Liu wrote: >>>>>>>>> And, we can all be tired, overworked, or lazy and say the wrong >>>>>>>>> thing *or* >>>>>>>>> get into bad habits. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thank John for your kindly understanding. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Also as a non-native English speaker, when I see abbreviation like >>>>>>>> PMC, >>>>>>>> my first insight is this word could be used on its own, `PMC >>>>>>>> member` looks a little redundancy for me... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> on Wed, Jul 03, 2024 at 08:50:45 AM +0800, John Gemignani wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My 2 cents as being a PMC member and once part of incubation,... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To be honest, I've never really paid much attention when someone >>>>>>>>> stated >>>>>>>>> they're a PMC. I knew what was meant and just auto corrected it >>>>>>>>> in my head. >>>>>>>>> I have used, without fully thinking about it, PMC as, "I am a >>>>>>>>> PMC" as well. >>>>>>>>> When I meant, or should have meant, "I am a PMC member", and I'm >>>>>>>>> a native >>>>>>>>> English speaker. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As was mentioned, people from different cultures might have >>>>>>>>> different ways >>>>>>>>> of using a term like PMC. I just don't feel that getting upset >>>>>>>>> over, >>>>>>>>> arguably an innocuous misuse, engenders community. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And, we can all be tired, overworked, or lazy and say the wrong >>>>>>>>> thing *or* >>>>>>>>> get into bad habits. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Again, my 2 cents. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> john >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 5:33 PM Dave Fisher <w...@apache.org> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Tison, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I’m sympathetic as well. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 2024, at 5:11 PM, tison <wander4...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Greg, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I saw this kind of thread many times, and I also corrected it >>>>>>>>>>> dozens >>>>>>>>>>> of times. Actually, this is part of the reason for [1] >>>>>>>>>>> ("Maintainer" >>>>>>>>>>> as an alias of PMC Member?). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> [1] >>>>>>>>>>> >> https://lists.apache.org/thread/xsjojmksqtnsdjcg0yf4vz0xy82llhmw >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That quickly turned into a not very sympathetic response from >>>>>>>>>> most. An >>>>>>>>>> easy what to name the Bikeshed. I think that most of our group >>>>>>>>>> are people >>>>>>>>>> whose second language is python, java, or fortran and their >>>>>>>>>> first language >>>>>>>>>> is some version of English. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Somehow, I share the sympathy for non-native speakers to make >>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>> analogy between committer and "PMC" since they're all >>>>>>>>>>> one-word >>>>>>>>>>> phrases. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Maybe explain it from your perspective as a speaker of Mandarin >>>>>>>>>> (or >>>>>>>>>> Cantonese?). How does the phrase Committee Member translate >>>>>>>>>> compared to >>>>>>>>>> Committee. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>> tison. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Greg Stein <gst...@gmail.com> 于2024年7月2日周二 17:05写道： >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hello all, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I am getting really tired of seeing people refer to >>>>>>>>>>>> *MEMBERS* of a PMC >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>> "PMCs". >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> PMC stands for Project Management Committee. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> You have MEMBERS of that PMC. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> People are never to be called a PMC, nor a group of them as >>>>>>>>>>>> PMCs. People >>>>>>>>>>>> are not committees. The acronym "PMC" is short for a >>>>>>>>>>>> committee, not a >>>>>>>>>>>> person. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Please stop the confusion. Teach the community how to use >>>>>>>>>>>> the proper >>>>>>>>>> terms. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>> Greg >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: >>>>>>>>>>> general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >>>>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: >>>>>>>>>>> general-h...@incubator.apache.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: >>>>>>>>>> general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >>>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: >>>>>>>>>> general-h...@incubator.apache.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: >> general-h...@incubator.apache.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Xuanwo >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://xuanwo.io/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >>>> >>>> >>> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
