@Terren. I repeat: Define "to exist"! Otherwise, what are we even talking about ? Mumbo-jumbo ?
On Monday, 6 January 2025 at 17:47:49 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: > I'm not asking you to prove that nothing besides consciousness exists. I'm > waiting for you to admit that such a proof is impossible. > > On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 10:42 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> @Terren. Prove what if we didn't even define our terms ? Define "to >> exist" and then ask me to prove that nothing else besides consciousness >> exists! >> >> On Monday, 6 January 2025 at 16:48:23 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >> >>> I'm the one that raised this line of questioning about metaphysics and >>> proof, because you said you admit everything, and I'm challenging that. You >>> are changing the subject. >>> >>> On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 9:39 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> @Terren. Why do you avoid the question ? I asked you a simple question: >>>> Define "to exist"! Otherwise, what are we even talking about ? >>>> >>>> On Monday, 6 January 2025 at 16:27:06 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>> >>>>> If you're not aware of what you can and cannot prove, your logic is >>>>> going to be flawed, or worse, you will sound like a religious nut. >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 9:19 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> @Terren. Is not a matter of proving. Is a matter of you becoming >>>>>> conscious of consciousness. Is a matter of you properly understanding >>>>>> what >>>>>> the concepts involved mean. For example, in your understanding, what >>>>>> does >>>>>> "to exist" mean ? >>>>>> >>>>>> On Monday, 6 January 2025 at 16:17:57 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Believe it or not, I'm sympathetic to that kind of theory of >>>>>>> reality. It's not far from what I personally believe. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But at the end of the day, you cannot prove it. Can you admit that? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 9:13 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> @Terren. You don't understand what you are. You are God. Once you >>>>>>>> understand why you are God, you also understand why only you exists. >>>>>>>> It has >>>>>>>> to do with what "to exist" means. "To exists" means to have >>>>>>>> form/meaning/quality. As such, only qualia exist, because "qualia" is >>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>> a synonymous for "existence". And qualia are the way in which you as >>>>>>>> God >>>>>>>> understand yourself. That's what reality is: is the process through >>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>> God knows itself. As such, there can be nothing else. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Monday, 6 January 2025 at 16:06:45 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I exist, consciousness exists. There's no question about that, for >>>>>>>>> me. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What is unprovable is the claim "nothing else exists except >>>>>>>>> consciousness". >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 8:08 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> @Terren. So you're not sure if you exist ? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Monday, 6 January 2025 at 03:07:17 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The claim that "consciousness is all that exists" is >>>>>>>>>>> metaphysics. You cannot prove that, but that doesn't stop you from >>>>>>>>>>> saying >>>>>>>>>>> things like "energy doesn't exist" as if it were a fact. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The ultimate nature of reality is a mystery. I don't put much >>>>>>>>>>> stock in people who speak in certainties about such things. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 5, 2025 at 3:08 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything >>>>>>>>>>> List <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> @Terren. What metaphysics ? Your existence is metaphysics ? Or >>>>>>>>>>>> is a matter of obvious fact ? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, 5 January 2025 at 19:18:21 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Prove that you admit everything. Admit that your assertion >>>>>>>>>>>>> that *consciousness is all that exists* is metaphysical - it >>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot be proved. The same is true of the claim that matter and >>>>>>>>>>>>> energy are >>>>>>>>>>>>> all that exists. Both are metaphysical statements. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 5, 2025 at 12:08 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything >>>>>>>>>>>>> List <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I always admit everything. It seems to you that I don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> because I keep saying "Consciousness is all there is". While >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that sentence >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is true, so while that proves with 100% certainty that there is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> no matter, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it still doesn't give the full details of consciousness. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, 5 January 2025 at 18:21:13 UTC+2 Terren Suydam >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that's the first time you've ever admitted you don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understand something fully. I recommend you keep going in that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> direction. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 5, 2025 at 11:05 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everything List <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I also said: "if we were to understand consciousness fully, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then we will know for sure what to expect after death." As of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> today, we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't understand consciousness fully. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, 5 January 2025 at 16:54:49 UTC+2 Terren Suydam >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When you said this: "And in case we would expect >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happiness, then we will even stop finding any cure for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cancer. We will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> celebrate cancer." So instead of celebrating cancer, why not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skip the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> painful parts? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 4, 2025 at 3:29:59 PM UTC-5 Cosmin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where did I say that the next life will be better ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 22:09:01 UTC+2 Terren >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Suydam wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Serious question - what's stopping you from killing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself and speeding up the transition to happiness? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 4, 2025 at 3:04 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everything List <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm millionaire, why would I need a job ? Also, if we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were to understand consciousness fully, then we will know >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for sure what to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expect after death. And in case we would expect happiness, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then we will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even stop finding any cure for cancer. We will celebrate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cancer. All of our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current decisions are made based on incomplete knowledge >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the truth. As >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such, we make the decisions based on what we imagine >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reality to be, not on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what it actually is. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 21:37:03 UTC+2 Alan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Grayson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 4, 2025 at 12:30:07 PM UTC-7 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cosmin Visan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It depends what kind of person you are. If you are a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> depressed person, curing you of cancer will not do any >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good. On the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contrary, if you would have died you would havd gotten a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chance at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happiness in the next life. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *You have to be right. Stop your BS, assuming you know >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than you actually do, or get a job, or jerkoff, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no more of your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stupidity. AG * >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 21:06:51 UTC+2 Alan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Grayson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 4, 2025 at 11:27:28 AM UTC-7 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cosmin Visan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just opened a topic a while back about the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definition of the word "useful" that you keep abusing. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let's remind you: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Useful = whatever increases happiness. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Useless = whatever doesn't increase happiness. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My philosophy, I guarantee you 100%, increases >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happiness, so is useful. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Getting cured of cancer might still let you depressed, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so cancer cure is useless. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *You can't be very conscious and make such a hugely >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stupid comment. Don't ya think that being cured of cancer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is immensely >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happier than succumbing to it? AG* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 19:59:29 UTC+2 Alan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Grayson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 4, 2025 at 10:44:42 AM UTC-7 Alan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Grayson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 4, 2025 at 9:53:59 AM UTC-7 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cosmin Visan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How do you expect you can properly fix a car if you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't know how it function ? You just do guesswork, you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> give it a few kicks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and maybe it starts. This is how present-day science >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> works given that it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't work based on fundamentals, namely based on the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness. Sure, you can keep doing research this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way: kick it till it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> works. And you might save a few lives. But if you were >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> start from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fundamentals, then you would know exactly what you were >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing and you will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> save 8 billion lives. Not that it would matter at that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point, given that at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that level of development we will manipulate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness to such a degree >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that we will not even need bodies anymore. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *About 60 years ago I met a fellow with your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> philosophy, a Master of Yoga, an adept at "Traditional >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Science", author of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> several books, who claimed with great authority that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem of cancer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had been "solved". He never got cancer but died of a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> heart failure around >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> age 80 in 2008. AG* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *My point is that people with your philosophy often >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make huge claims, with rarely anything practical >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forthcoming. For example, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> during the Covid pandemic, a company named Moderna >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> produced a vaccine in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> record time, using knowledge of DNA, viruses, etc. They >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> couldn't have done >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that without the discovery of DNA, which no doubt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> required by the invention >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the Electron Microscope. Talk is cheap. We can do >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> great things in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absence of your vague philosophy. Can you actually DO >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something useful, or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is it all talk? AG * >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 17:17:26 UTC+2 Alan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Grayson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 4, 2025 at 8:11:38 AM UTC-7 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cosmin Visan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> @Alan. You can do cancer research. But since that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> research is not based on fundamental ideas about reality, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it will be just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guesswork: Just try 1000 different drugs and cross >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fingers that one might >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work. Instead, if people would actually understand >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness, they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would cure cancer in 1 week. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *I might believe that if you were able to contribute >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ANYTHING to ANY problem discussed here. All I read are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grandiose claims >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with nothing practical forthcoming. AG* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 17:08:48 UTC+2 Alan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Grayson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 4, 2025 at 8:01:18 AM UTC-7 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cosmin Visan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can continue cancer research. But is just like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> playing World of Warcraft in order to get the legendary >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gear. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *If you get cancer, which is not my wish, you can tell >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your doctor that the pain and suffering is purely >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imaginary, not to mention >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the possible early termination of your life. Now, do us >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all a favor and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cease posting like a fool. AG * >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 16:48:23 UTC+2 John >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Clark wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *You didn't answer my question. Should cancer research >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be stopped, and if not why not? * >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 4, 2025 at 9:35 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everything List <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You make the classical confusion between epistemology >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and ontology. Only because you can watch a movie with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Spider-Man >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (epistemology), it doesn't follow that Spider-Man exists >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (ontology). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 15:39:31 UTC+2 John >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Clark wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 4, 2025 at 8:04 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everything List <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *>>the question of list moderation would not be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> relevant at this time if one very recent list member >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't think page >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> after page of nothing but "(:>)" characters was an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intelligent rebuttal, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and ALL scientific questions of the form "what is the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nature of X?" can be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answered by simply saying "X does not exist".* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *> Of course, given that consciousness is all there >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is. Why would you waste time talking about things that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't exist ?* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *So there's no point in doing cancer research because >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cancer does not exist? Do I have that right? * >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * John K Clark See what's on my new list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at Extropolis <https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emails from it, send an email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/ce0f45cd-428a-4658-9611-8491375412dfn%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/ce0f45cd-428a-4658-9611-8491375412dfn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- 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