@Terren. Why do you avoid the question ? I asked you a simple question: Define "to exist"! Otherwise, what are we even talking about ?
On Monday, 6 January 2025 at 16:27:06 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: > If you're not aware of what you can and cannot prove, your logic is going > to be flawed, or worse, you will sound like a religious nut. > > On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 9:19 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> @Terren. Is not a matter of proving. Is a matter of you becoming >> conscious of consciousness. Is a matter of you properly understanding what >> the concepts involved mean. For example, in your understanding, what does >> "to exist" mean ? >> >> On Monday, 6 January 2025 at 16:17:57 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >> >>> Believe it or not, I'm sympathetic to that kind of theory of reality. >>> It's not far from what I personally believe. >>> >>> But at the end of the day, you cannot prove it. Can you admit that? >>> >>> On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 9:13 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> @Terren. You don't understand what you are. You are God. Once you >>>> understand why you are God, you also understand why only you exists. It >>>> has >>>> to do with what "to exist" means. "To exists" means to have >>>> form/meaning/quality. As such, only qualia exist, because "qualia" is just >>>> a synonymous for "existence". And qualia are the way in which you as God >>>> understand yourself. That's what reality is: is the process through which >>>> God knows itself. As such, there can be nothing else. >>>> >>>> On Monday, 6 January 2025 at 16:06:45 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>> >>>>> I exist, consciousness exists. There's no question about that, for me. >>>>> >>>>> What is unprovable is the claim "nothing else exists except >>>>> consciousness". >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 8:08 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> @Terren. So you're not sure if you exist ? >>>>>> >>>>>> On Monday, 6 January 2025 at 03:07:17 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> The claim that "consciousness is all that exists" is metaphysics. >>>>>>> You cannot prove that, but that doesn't stop you from saying things >>>>>>> like >>>>>>> "energy doesn't exist" as if it were a fact. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The ultimate nature of reality is a mystery. I don't put much stock >>>>>>> in people who speak in certainties about such things. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 5, 2025 at 3:08 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> @Terren. What metaphysics ? Your existence is metaphysics ? Or is a >>>>>>>> matter of obvious fact ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sunday, 5 January 2025 at 19:18:21 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Prove that you admit everything. Admit that your assertion that >>>>>>>>> *consciousness >>>>>>>>> is all that exists* is metaphysical - it cannot be proved. The >>>>>>>>> same is true of the claim that matter and energy are all that exists. >>>>>>>>> Both >>>>>>>>> are metaphysical statements. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 5, 2025 at 12:08 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List >>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I always admit everything. It seems to you that I don't because I >>>>>>>>>> keep saying "Consciousness is all there is". While that sentence is >>>>>>>>>> true, >>>>>>>>>> so while that proves with 100% certainty that there is no matter, it >>>>>>>>>> still >>>>>>>>>> doesn't give the full details of consciousness. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, 5 January 2025 at 18:21:13 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I think that's the first time you've ever admitted you don't >>>>>>>>>>> understand something fully. I recommend you keep going in that >>>>>>>>>>> direction. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 5, 2025 at 11:05 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything >>>>>>>>>>> List <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I also said: "if we were to understand consciousness fully, >>>>>>>>>>>> then we will know for sure what to expect after death." As of >>>>>>>>>>>> today, we >>>>>>>>>>>> don't understand consciousness fully. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, 5 January 2025 at 16:54:49 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> When you said this: "And in case we would expect happiness, >>>>>>>>>>>>> then we will even stop finding any cure for cancer. We will >>>>>>>>>>>>> celebrate >>>>>>>>>>>>> cancer." So instead of celebrating cancer, why not skip the >>>>>>>>>>>>> painful parts? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 4, 2025 at 3:29:59 PM UTC-5 Cosmin Visan >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where did I say that the next life will be better ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 22:09:01 UTC+2 Terren Suydam >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Serious question - what's stopping you from killing yourself >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and speeding up the transition to happiness? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 4, 2025 at 3:04 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> List <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm millionaire, why would I need a job ? Also, if we were >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to understand consciousness fully, then we will know for sure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expect after death. And in case we would expect happiness, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then we will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even stop finding any cure for cancer. We will celebrate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cancer. All of our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current decisions are made based on incomplete knowledge of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the truth. As >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such, we make the decisions based on what we imagine reality >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be, not on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what it actually is. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 21:37:03 UTC+2 Alan Grayson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 4, 2025 at 12:30:07 PM UTC-7 Cosmin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It depends what kind of person you are. If you are a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> depressed person, curing you of cancer will not do any good. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contrary, if you would have died you would havd gotten a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chance at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happiness in the next life. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *You have to be right. Stop your BS, assuming you know >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than you actually do, or get a job, or jerkoff, but no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more of your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stupidity. AG * >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 21:06:51 UTC+2 Alan Grayson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 4, 2025 at 11:27:28 AM UTC-7 Cosmin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just opened a topic a while back about the definition of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the word "useful" that you keep abusing. Let's remind you: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Useful = whatever increases happiness. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Useless = whatever doesn't increase happiness. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My philosophy, I guarantee you 100%, increases happiness, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so is useful. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Getting cured of cancer might still let you depressed, so >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cancer cure is useless. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *You can't be very conscious and make such a hugely stupid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> comment. Don't ya think that being cured of cancer is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> immensely happier >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than succumbing to it? AG* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 19:59:29 UTC+2 Alan Grayson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 4, 2025 at 10:44:42 AM UTC-7 Alan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Grayson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 4, 2025 at 9:53:59 AM UTC-7 Cosmin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How do you expect you can properly fix a car if you don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know how it function ? You just do guesswork, you give it a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> few kicks and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maybe it starts. This is how present-day science works given >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't work based on fundamentals, namely based on the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness. Sure, you can keep doing research this way: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kick it till it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> works. And you might save a few lives. But if you were start >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fundamentals, then you would know exactly what you were doing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and you will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> save 8 billion lives. Not that it would matter at that point, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> given that at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that level of development we will manipulate consciousness to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such a degree >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that we will not even need bodies anymore. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *About 60 years ago I met a fellow with your philosophy, a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Master of Yoga, an adept at "Traditional Science", author of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> several books, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who claimed with great authority that the problem of cancer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had been >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "solved". He never got cancer but died of a heart failure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around age 80 in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2008. AG* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *My point is that people with your philosophy often make >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> huge claims, with rarely anything practical forthcoming. For >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> example, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> during the Covid pandemic, a company named Moderna produced a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vaccine in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> record time, using knowledge of DNA, viruses, etc. They >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> couldn't have done >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that without the discovery of DNA, which no doubt required by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the invention >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the Electron Microscope. Talk is cheap. We can do great >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absence of your vague philosophy. Can you actually DO >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something useful, or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is it all talk? AG * >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 17:17:26 UTC+2 Alan Grayson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 4, 2025 at 8:11:38 AM UTC-7 Cosmin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> @Alan. You can do cancer research. But since that research >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not based on fundamental ideas about reality, it will be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just guesswork: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just try 1000 different drugs and cross fingers that one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might work. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Instead, if people would actually understand consciousness, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they would cure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cancer in 1 week. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *I might believe that if you were able to contribute >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ANYTHING to ANY problem discussed here. All I read are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grandiose claims >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with nothing practical forthcoming. AG* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 17:08:48 UTC+2 Alan Grayson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 4, 2025 at 8:01:18 AM UTC-7 Cosmin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can continue cancer research. But is just like playing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> World of Warcraft in order to get the legendary gear. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *If you get cancer, which is not my wish, you can tell >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your doctor that the pain and suffering is purely imaginary, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not to mention >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the possible early termination of your life. Now, do us all a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> favor and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cease posting like a fool. AG * >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 16:48:23 UTC+2 John Clark >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *You didn't answer my question. Should cancer research be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stopped, and if not why not? * >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 4, 2025 at 9:35 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everything List <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You make the classical confusion between epistemology and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ontology. Only because you can watch a movie with Spider-Man >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (epistemology), it doesn't follow that Spider-Man exists >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (ontology). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 15:39:31 UTC+2 John Clark >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 4, 2025 at 8:04 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everything List <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *>>the question of list moderation would not be relevant >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at this time if one very recent list member didn't think page >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> after page of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nothing but "(:>)" characters was an intelligent rebuttal, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and ALL scientific questions of the form "what is the nature >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of X?" can be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answered by simply saying "X does not exist".* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *> Of course, given that consciousness is all there is. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why would you waste time talking about things that don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exist ?* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *So there's no point in doing cancer research because >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cancer does not exist? Do I have that right? * >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * John K Clark See what's on my new list at Extropolis >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from it, send an email to [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/ce0f45cd-428a-4658-9611-8491375412dfn%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/ce0f45cd-428a-4658-9611-8491375412dfn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/f319c6fd-59c0-474d-a489-14eb3361024en%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/f319c6fd-59c0-474d-a489-14eb3361024en%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/b8898e6a-2803-42c6-9a2b-dfdc537b5d0en%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/b8898e6a-2803-42c6-9a2b-dfdc537b5d0en%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a8b9c897-3fd8-4840-9420-628ee48e7bacn%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a8b9c897-3fd8-4840-9420-628ee48e7bacn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> >>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/eca484a1-d703-470a-a6b0-ac7edca5b396n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>> >>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/eca484a1-d703-470a-a6b0-ac7edca5b396n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> >>> To view this discussion visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/44642e49-a3e8-4e6c-8964-cb28acb77435n%40googlegroups.com >>>> >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/44642e49-a3e8-4e6c-8964-cb28acb77435n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> > To view this discussion visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/9b7fbeea-913b-49fc-82be-bda8a4aa448bn%40googlegroups.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/9b7fbeea-913b-49fc-82be-bda8a4aa448bn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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