@Terren. Prove what if we didn't even define our terms ? Define "to exist" and then ask me to prove that nothing else besides consciousness exists!
On Monday, 6 January 2025 at 16:48:23 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: > I'm the one that raised this line of questioning about metaphysics and > proof, because you said you admit everything, and I'm challenging that. You > are changing the subject. > > On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 9:39 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < > everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote: > >> @Terren. Why do you avoid the question ? I asked you a simple question: >> Define "to exist"! Otherwise, what are we even talking about ? >> >> On Monday, 6 January 2025 at 16:27:06 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >> >>> If you're not aware of what you can and cannot prove, your logic is >>> going to be flawed, or worse, you will sound like a religious nut. >>> >>> On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 9:19 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>> >>>> @Terren. Is not a matter of proving. Is a matter of you becoming >>>> conscious of consciousness. Is a matter of you properly understanding what >>>> the concepts involved mean. For example, in your understanding, what does >>>> "to exist" mean ? >>>> >>>> On Monday, 6 January 2025 at 16:17:57 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>> >>>>> Believe it or not, I'm sympathetic to that kind of theory of reality. >>>>> It's not far from what I personally believe. >>>>> >>>>> But at the end of the day, you cannot prove it. Can you admit that? >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 9:13 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> @Terren. You don't understand what you are. You are God. Once you >>>>>> understand why you are God, you also understand why only you exists. It >>>>>> has >>>>>> to do with what "to exist" means. "To exists" means to have >>>>>> form/meaning/quality. As such, only qualia exist, because "qualia" is >>>>>> just >>>>>> a synonymous for "existence". And qualia are the way in which you as God >>>>>> understand yourself. That's what reality is: is the process through >>>>>> which >>>>>> God knows itself. As such, there can be nothing else. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Monday, 6 January 2025 at 16:06:45 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I exist, consciousness exists. There's no question about that, for >>>>>>> me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What is unprovable is the claim "nothing else exists except >>>>>>> consciousness". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 8:08 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>>>>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> @Terren. So you're not sure if you exist ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Monday, 6 January 2025 at 03:07:17 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The claim that "consciousness is all that exists" is metaphysics. >>>>>>>>> You cannot prove that, but that doesn't stop you from saying things >>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>> "energy doesn't exist" as if it were a fact. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The ultimate nature of reality is a mystery. I don't put much >>>>>>>>> stock in people who speak in certainties about such things. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 5, 2025 at 3:08 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>>>>>>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> @Terren. What metaphysics ? Your existence is metaphysics ? Or is >>>>>>>>>> a matter of obvious fact ? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, 5 January 2025 at 19:18:21 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Prove that you admit everything. Admit that your assertion that >>>>>>>>>>> *consciousness >>>>>>>>>>> is all that exists* is metaphysical - it cannot be proved. The >>>>>>>>>>> same is true of the claim that matter and energy are all that >>>>>>>>>>> exists. Both >>>>>>>>>>> are metaphysical statements. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 5, 2025 at 12:08 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything >>>>>>>>>>> List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I always admit everything. It seems to you that I don't because >>>>>>>>>>>> I keep saying "Consciousness is all there is". While that sentence >>>>>>>>>>>> is true, >>>>>>>>>>>> so while that proves with 100% certainty that there is no matter, >>>>>>>>>>>> it still >>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't give the full details of consciousness. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, 5 January 2025 at 18:21:13 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that's the first time you've ever admitted you don't >>>>>>>>>>>>> understand something fully. I recommend you keep going in that >>>>>>>>>>>>> direction. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 5, 2025 at 11:05 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything >>>>>>>>>>>>> List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I also said: "if we were to understand consciousness fully, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> then we will know for sure what to expect after death." As of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> today, we >>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't understand consciousness fully. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, 5 January 2025 at 16:54:49 UTC+2 Terren Suydam >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When you said this: "And in case we would expect happiness, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then we will even stop finding any cure for cancer. We will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> celebrate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cancer." So instead of celebrating cancer, why not skip the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> painful parts? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 4, 2025 at 3:29:59 PM UTC-5 Cosmin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where did I say that the next life will be better ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 22:09:01 UTC+2 Terren Suydam >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Serious question - what's stopping you from killing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself and speeding up the transition to happiness? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 4, 2025 at 3:04 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm millionaire, why would I need a job ? Also, if we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were to understand consciousness fully, then we will know >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for sure what to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expect after death. And in case we would expect happiness, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then we will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even stop finding any cure for cancer. We will celebrate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cancer. All of our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current decisions are made based on incomplete knowledge of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the truth. As >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such, we make the decisions based on what we imagine reality >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be, not on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what it actually is. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 21:37:03 UTC+2 Alan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Grayson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 4, 2025 at 12:30:07 PM UTC-7 Cosmin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It depends what kind of person you are. If you are a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> depressed person, curing you of cancer will not do any >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good. On the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contrary, if you would have died you would havd gotten a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chance at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happiness in the next life. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *You have to be right. Stop your BS, assuming you know >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than you actually do, or get a job, or jerkoff, but no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more of your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stupidity. AG * >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 21:06:51 UTC+2 Alan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Grayson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 4, 2025 at 11:27:28 AM UTC-7 Cosmin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just opened a topic a while back about the definition >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the word "useful" that you keep abusing. Let's remind >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Useful = whatever increases happiness. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Useless = whatever doesn't increase happiness. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My philosophy, I guarantee you 100%, increases >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happiness, so is useful. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Getting cured of cancer might still let you depressed, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so cancer cure is useless. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *You can't be very conscious and make such a hugely >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stupid comment. Don't ya think that being cured of cancer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is immensely >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happier than succumbing to it? AG* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 19:59:29 UTC+2 Alan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Grayson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 4, 2025 at 10:44:42 AM UTC-7 Alan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Grayson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 4, 2025 at 9:53:59 AM UTC-7 Cosmin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How do you expect you can properly fix a car if you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't know how it function ? You just do guesswork, you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> give it a few kicks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and maybe it starts. This is how present-day science works >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> given that it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't work based on fundamentals, namely based on the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness. Sure, you can keep doing research this way: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kick it till it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> works. And you might save a few lives. But if you were >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> start from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fundamentals, then you would know exactly what you were >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing and you will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> save 8 billion lives. Not that it would matter at that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point, given that at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that level of development we will manipulate consciousness >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to such a degree >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that we will not even need bodies anymore. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *About 60 years ago I met a fellow with your philosophy, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a Master of Yoga, an adept at "Traditional Science", author >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of several >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books, who claimed with great authority that the problem of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cancer had been >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "solved". He never got cancer but died of a heart failure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around age 80 in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2008. AG* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *My point is that people with your philosophy often make >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> huge claims, with rarely anything practical forthcoming. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For example, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> during the Covid pandemic, a company named Moderna produced >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a vaccine in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> record time, using knowledge of DNA, viruses, etc. They >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> couldn't have done >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that without the discovery of DNA, which no doubt required >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by the invention >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the Electron Microscope. Talk is cheap. We can do great >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absence of your vague philosophy. Can you actually DO >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something useful, or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is it all talk? AG * >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 17:17:26 UTC+2 Alan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Grayson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 4, 2025 at 8:11:38 AM UTC-7 Cosmin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> @Alan. You can do cancer research. But since that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> research is not based on fundamental ideas about reality, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it will be just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guesswork: Just try 1000 different drugs and cross fingers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that one might >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work. Instead, if people would actually understand >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness, they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would cure cancer in 1 week. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *I might believe that if you were able to contribute >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ANYTHING to ANY problem discussed here. All I read are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grandiose claims >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with nothing practical forthcoming. AG* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 17:08:48 UTC+2 Alan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Grayson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 4, 2025 at 8:01:18 AM UTC-7 Cosmin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can continue cancer research. But is just like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> playing World of Warcraft in order to get the legendary >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gear. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *If you get cancer, which is not my wish, you can tell >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your doctor that the pain and suffering is purely >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imaginary, not to mention >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the possible early termination of your life. Now, do us all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a favor and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cease posting like a fool. AG * >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 16:48:23 UTC+2 John Clark >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *You didn't answer my question. Should cancer research >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be stopped, and if not why not? * >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 4, 2025 at 9:35 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You make the classical confusion between epistemology >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and ontology. Only because you can watch a movie with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Spider-Man >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (epistemology), it doesn't follow that Spider-Man exists >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (ontology). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 4 January 2025 at 15:39:31 UTC+2 John Clark >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 4, 2025 at 8:04 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *>>the question of list moderation would not be relevant >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at this time if one very recent list member didn't think >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> page after page of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nothing but "(:>)" characters was an intelligent rebuttal, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and ALL scientific questions of the form "what is the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nature of X?" can be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answered by simply saying "X does not exist".* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *> Of course, given that consciousness is all there is. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why would you waste time talking about things that don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exist ?* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *So there's no point in doing cancer research because >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cancer does not exist? Do I have that right? * >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * John K Clark See what's on my new list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at Extropolis <https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from it, send an email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything-li...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/ce0f45cd-428a-4658-9611-8491375412dfn%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/ce0f45cd-428a-4658-9611-8491375412dfn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received 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