Thank you Craig – yes, considered alternative design options. Building is brand new, fitted with ESFR K25. I am going to pursue the “plastics to 9’-6” is an EH2 and I can use ESFR for EH2” approach. The standard is a little confusing and one could say it’s even self-contradictory to a certain extent, but it says what it says unconditionally about applying ESFR to LH, OH and EH occupancy hazard classes…
SL From: Prahl, Craig <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, May 22, 2023 8:08 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Plastics in Bin Box storage I’ll also add to Ken’s comment in that much of what FM produces has dependencies on other requirements as well. Building construction, ventilation, etc. can also be part of the specific requirements related to a fire protection data sheet. Read the whole data sheet to be sure there aren’t other requirements outside of your scope that can influence the FP design. Additionally, make sure your local AHJ will accept the design criteria in the FM data sheet if it varies from NFPA. I deal with one jurisdiction that will not accept any FM Data sheet criteria, only NFPA due to NFPA being the only referenced standards in their adopted codes. Have you looked at Chapter 21, specifically 21.3.2 and 21.3.3? Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> | www.jacobs.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.jacobs.com/__;!!KZTdOCjhgt4hgw!-_khxU8gU0_6jc895I7kRbnU8JghRDsWgqOblZ4jr7Qp2IVbR30VYw_hWvNFtphnl0uWpB9KIvbYi1pvZz4$> 1041 East Butler Road Greenville, South Carolina 29606 CONTACT BY: Phone 1-864-676-5252, Email or MS TEAMS From: Ken Wagoner <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Friday, May 19, 2023 11:43 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; BRUCE VERHEI <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; å... .... <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Sprinklerforum] Re: Plastics in Bin Box storage Bruce, And your comment prompts this caveat from me regarding the application of 8-9. Quite some time ago I learned from FM Global, that to appropriately use 8-9 as establishing the criteria for protection of storage that the entire fire sprinkler system has to meet FM Global guide documents. It isn't a matter of designing/installing a system per -13 and selecting the protection criteria for storage from 8-9. The system has to conform to all of the FM Global data sheets, beginning with 2-0. sincerely, Ken Wagoner, SET Parsley Consulting 500 West Mechanic Street Harrisonville, Missouri 64701-2235 Phone: (760) 745-6181 Visit the website<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2fwww.parsleyconsulting.com*2f&c=E,1,Y5zKJKPEh1mBEBqSR-VE9cUKl5y-eyP8BpvmE_5j9ZqW2eJbNphYzrCMBZ-2YuX6d-RRkHI4gQ1FV-cvOeCfRC58uZS9NiToZv2mx7909oCqLvCW_n5hDHeK&typo=1__;JSUlJQ!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!DJeai_sUJalxW9YJDfMcmooADU2d3Gm6qqAmmrs7jSnGgO8VggeW61iDcTkfZ9EkBUf6jCSlA-84MBkjZ6qSgg$> On 5/19/2023 10:31 AM, BRUCE VERHEI wrote: For the AHJ types skulking out there, I would back up Scot’s comments, and add the late Joe Hankins to list of highly respected FM P.E.’s. The one comment I do have is that’s #13 is intended to be used as a standard, and 8-9 et al as guidance to FM’s engineers and insured. It much more expects good intent, and is not to be applied for those who go looking for what-if loopholes. We accepted 8-9 all the time, while still applying the seismic etc standards from #13. Best. Bruce Verhei On 05/18/2023 3:34 PM PDT å... .... <[email protected]><mailto:[email protected]> wrote: If the client resticts their bin-box (open-top) containers to only the lowest level of storage, there are onerous work-arounds. I would take my design directions from FM, as most of their high-piled plastic storage advice becomes NFPA 13. Simply FM Global has been leader sin qua non, in sprinkler protection of industrial rack storage for scores-and-more of years. FM Global invokes the Bayesian far more often and far faster than NFPA 13 (i.e. FM Global changes their mind to update their guess when presented with new evidence). While it would appear that FM Global procurement of evidence is biased, because they literally record their own fire test data, I have found the integrity and the personal effort offered by their personnel as a paramount case study in information sharing for the fire safety community. At the risk of tainting their reputations by association with this writer, I can not recommend enough the personal contributions Prateep Chatterjee and Weston Baker of FM Global, have made to our industry. Section 2.2.4.3 of FM Global's Data Sheet 8-9 talks to us on your subject. You are in good care with their share. Collusion exposure statement: Scot Deal has no financial links to FM Global either through payments or client procurement collaborations. Scot Deal is financially linked to NFPA through subscription fees. Scot Deal Excelsior Risk and Fire Engineering gms: +420 606 872 129<tel:+420606872129> Si vis pacem, para vinum On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 11:47 PM Steve Leyton <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: I want to be sure that I’ve got this right: A client is moving into a brand-new ESFR protected warehouse space and they want to build a two level bin-box system. I explained that they would have to fire protect below the walkways and they’ve come back to me asking whether or not building just the lower level of the system would alleviate the need to make sprinkler system improvements. The CMSA and ESFR protection tables in Chapter 14 (2016 edition) don’t include bin-box or plastics in the application range, Only palletized and solid pile, Classes 1-4. If they want to use a bin-box system, do they have to change roof sprinklers out for CMDA? Or can the ESFR remain and CMDA sprinklers would be installed under walkways when they’re built? I miss the little bitty book and pipe scheduled systems… [cid:[email protected]] Steve Leyton, President T | 619.255.8964<tel:619.255.8964> x 102 | www.protectiondesign.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.protectiondesign.com/__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!DJeai_sUJalxW9YJDfMcmooADU2d3Gm6qqAmmrs7jSnGgO8VggeW61iDcTkfZ9EkBUf6jCSlA-84MBkCbZ5NbQ$> 2851 Camino Del Rio South | Suite 210 | San Diego, CA 92108 Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!DJeai_sUJalxW9YJDfMcmooADU2d3Gm6qqAmmrs7jSnGgO8VggeW61iDcTkfZ9EkBUf6jCSlA-84MBkbglz0ww$> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!DJeai_sUJalxW9YJDfMcmooADU2d3Gm6qqAmmrs7jSnGgO8VggeW61iDcTkfZ9EkBUf6jCSlA-84MBkbglz0ww$> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!DJeai_sUJalxW9YJDfMcmooADU2d3Gm6qqAmmrs7jSnGgO8VggeW61iDcTkfZ9EkBUf6jCSlA-84MBkbglz0ww$> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> ________________________________ NOTICE - This communication may contain confidential and privileged information that is for the sole use of the intended recipient. 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