new_guy wrote:
>
>
>
> Marco S Hyman wrote:
>>
>> "Brad Tilley" writes:
>> > performed from the OpenBSD 4.2 install CD. I'll send it to the one
>> > 'ISO Certified' company that agreed to examine it. If they cannot
>>
>> You keep throwing around the 'ISO Certified' tag as if it had some
>> s
2008/1/6, scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Notwithstanding the mentioned 5% issue, in context and for the purposes
> of secure wipes, is it not better to use
>
> /dev/arandom (or /dev/srandom) vs. /dev/zero
>
> as in
>
> dd if=/dev/arandom ...
>
> /S
Well rm -P is going to overwrite the file 3 times a
: Eric Furman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: Jon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, OpenBSD Misc
Subject: Re: delete deleted data
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 21:13:42 +1100
Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2008/1/6, Eric Furman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Sat, 5 Jan 2008 14:25:37 +1100, "Sunnz" &
2008/1/6, Eric Furman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Sat, 5 Jan 2008 14:25:37 +1100, "Sunnz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> >
> > Just create a file and filling it with /dev/zero until it takes up all
> > the free spaces, then rm -P that file.
>
> But from his original post he wants to make sure everything
On Sat, 5 Jan 2008 14:25:37 +1100, "Sunnz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> 2008/1/5, Jon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > rm -P wont work... I looking to clean up deleted data ... not securely
> > delete a file.
> >
> >
>
> Just create a file and filling it with /dev/zero until it takes up all
> the free spac
On Sat, Jan 05, 2008 at 12:09:08PM -0700, Diana Eichert wrote:
> On Sun, 6 Jan 2008, Shane J Pearson wrote:
> SNIP
> >Where a mix of humans, transistors, valves, gears and three-phase
> >motors/sensors, got the job done.;-)
> >
> >Shane
>
> No coal and steam?
>
> I had to say it.
What do yo
L wrote:
Unix Fan wrote:
But either way, no such utility exists to restore data that has been
overwritten.. regardless of the "algorithms" used.
Unless there was a magnetic offline hardware utility of some sort that
scanned magnetic fields?
http://www.actionfront.com/ts_dataremova
Unix Fan wrote:
L wrote:
Restoring files from FAT partitions is easy.. I use fatback(http://sf.net/projects/fatback)...
I will check that one out..
But either way, no such utility exists to restore data that has been overwritten..
regardless of the "algorithms" used.
Unless
On Saturday 05 January 2008 09:57:54 Diana Eichert wrote:
> Okay, someone touched on this so I'll follow it a little further.
>
> Say you pull the platter(s) out of the drive and now start analysing the
> data as analog voltage levels and not highs/lows with threshold. Also,
> get the data off the
On Jan 5, 2008, at 8:06 AM, Shane J Pearson wrote:
I think the first computers I witnessed in a work place, were
actually analog computers (Navy).
Where a mix of humans, transistors, valves, gears and three-phase
motors/sensors, got the job done.;-)
They're still in use as of the lat
On Sun, 6 Jan 2008, Shane J Pearson wrote:
SNIP
Where a mix of humans, transistors, valves, gears and three-phase
motors/sensors, got the job done.;-)
Shane
No coal and steam?
I had to say it.
diana
It was shareware/trialware and I am looking for the name of it...
usually it is right on my Wiki when I make notes.. but I can't find it
there yet.
L505
Kasper Revsbech wrote:
Are you willing to share the names of those programs ?
Kind regards
Kasper
L wrote:
One thing I found was that
On 06/01/2008, at 1:57 AM, Diana Eichert wrote:
Any EE worth their weight in salt understands signal processing. I
do believe a lot of younger engineers have grown up in the 1 & 0
digital world and forget about analog.
I think the first computers I witnessed in a work place, were actually
Okay, someone touched on this so I'll follow it a little further.
Say you pull the platter(s) out of the drive and now start analysing the
data as analog voltage levels and not highs/lows with threshold. Also,
get the data off the platter(s) by driving a head across it in different
directions
On 04/01/2008, at 12:21 PM, Harpalus a Como wrote:
Myth? Why are you so upset about this? It's not myth.
The techniques involved in recovering data in the manner Marco and
the NSA,
DoD, and many others describe isn't a matter of running a simple
software
tool. It's a long, slow, annoying pr
On 04/01/2008, at 8:19 AM, Brad Tilley wrote:
One pass from /dev/zero is more than enough for all cases.
I agree that after a single pass of zeroes, getting anything but
zeroes from a fully working, unaltered drive is not going to happen.
But if you remove the digital logic which masks res
Are you willing to share the names of those programs ?
Kind regards
Kasper
L wrote:
Just FYI about security of deleted data..
I purchase used computers for parts every so often. Many of them have
working hard drives in them.
For fun, I analyze the hard drive out and see what I can find.. ju
On 1/4/08, Jon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> rm -P wont work... I looking to clean up deleted data ... not securely
> delete a file.
i was curious how they do this, but it's nothing fancier than creating
a big file and filling it up. i notice that they are using the magic
guttman incantation. i a
2008/1/5, Jon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> rm -P wont work... I looking to clean up deleted data ... not securely
> delete a file.
>
>
Just create a file and filling it with /dev/zero until it takes up all
the free spaces, then rm -P that file.
Or just use an encrypted file system next time you set up
rm -P wont work... I looking to clean up deleted data ... not securely
delete a file.
On Jan 4, 2008 5:45 PM, Ted Unangst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Jan 4, 2008 3:55 PM, Jon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Ok.. well seeing how I got 2 usefull responses after some 30 emails
> > with most other
On Jan 4, 2008 3:55 PM, Jon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ok.. well seeing how I got 2 usefull responses after some 30 emails
> with most others just randomly emailing _crap_ I decided to search the
> web based on the suggestions from Hannah. (the first responder)
>
> I think I am going to try worki
On Fri, Jan 04, 2008 at 03:55:41PM -0800, Jon wrote:
> Ok.. well seeing how I got 2 usefull responses after some 30 emails
> with most others just randomly emailing _crap_ I decided to search the
> web based on the suggestions from Hannah. (the first responder)
>
> I think I am going to try workin
Ok.. well seeing how I got 2 usefull responses after some 30 emails
with most others just randomly emailing _crap_ I decided to search the
web based on the suggestions from Hannah. (the first responder)
I think I am going to try working with THC-SecureDelete
(http://freeworld.thc.org/releases.php?
Just FYI about security of deleted data..
I purchase used computers for parts every so often. Many of them have
working hard drives in them.
For fun, I analyze the hard drive out and see what I can find.. just as
a little game of mine.
When I run my undelete/recovery tools on them I can see
If you never write cleartext, there is nothing to recover.
http://dlock.com.tw/
Kevin
(P.S. I might be a satisfied dLock customer, if only they'd make it
easier to buy their product!)
On Fri, Jan 04, 2008 at 11:22:16AM +0100, Otto Moerbeek wrote:
>
> I can do two more: . and ..
Damn. Split it with you 3 ways... :)
-Toby.
--
[100~Plax]sb16i0A2172656B63616820636420726568746F6E61207473754A[dZ1!=b]salax
Greg Thomas wrote:
Myth?
Have you read this:
http://www.nber.org/sys-admin/overwritten-data-guttman.html?
You still haven't convinced me as to why I should believe a tax
analyst's rebuttal to a data security analyst's paper. Feenberg has no
expertise in this area, and Gutmann does. You're
On 1/4/08 3:03 AM, Greg Thomas wrote:
On Jan 3, 2008 5:21 PM, Harpalus a Como <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Myth?
Have you read this:
http://www.nber.org/sys-admin/overwritten-data-guttman.html?
Why are you so upset about this?
Myth's that compel people to waste time and energy should be dest
Just a little point. Sometimes precautions are taken
not so much for the sake of what can be done today but
what someone might figure out how to do in the future.
I am not an engineer, but the explanation that I have
heard of how data is read from a wiped drive sounds
plausable (if not possible) g
On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 20:21:27 -0500, "Harpalus a Como"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> Myth? Why are you so upset about this? It's not myth.
>
> The techniques involved in recovering data in the manner Marco and the
> NSA,
> DoD, and many others describe isn't a matter of running a simple software
> too
On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 20:35:11 -0500, "Douglas A. Tutty"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 04:08:08PM -0800, Marco S Hyman wrote:
>
> > As for disk destruction... I don't know nor pretend to know what can
> > and can not be recovered. Take a look at
> >
> > https://www.dss.mil/p
On Fri, Jan 04, 2008 at 02:56:12AM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> In gmane.os.openbsd.misc, you wrote:
> >
> > I'll put up a website with all the details and pictures... I'll call
> > it 'Put Up Or Shut Up' Anyone who wants a crack at recovering data
> > from the drive may do so (as long as
In gmane.os.openbsd.misc, you wrote:
>
> I'll put up a website with all the details and pictures... I'll call
> it 'Put Up Or Shut Up' Anyone who wants a crack at recovering data
> from the drive may do so (as long as they pay the shipping charges
> both ways). If they can name one file that e
On 1/3/08, new_guy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm working on putting a website up now where I'll fully disclose the
> details. Lots of pictures and details. I will attribute the dd used to
> OpenBSD (the best OS on the planet bar none... although the dd on the
> install CD did not support the con
Eric Furman wrote:
It can't be done. it's an urban legend, AFAICT.
http://www.nber.org/sys-admin/overwritten-data-guttman.html
Which references Gutmann's paper which started all this...
Of course I'm sure a tax analyst (http://www.nber.org/vitae/vita184.htm)
knows more about data recovery than
On Thu, 3 Jan 2008, Mark Rolen wrote:
Diana Eichert wrote:
You can locate data from formatted and "wiped" hard drive, if you have the
resources behind you.
Can you point to an actual instance you know of where this has happened? I
don't mean that in an aggressive or challenging way, I'm sin
On 3 Jan 2008 18:55:14 -0800, Unix Fan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> (I like the "Put Up or Shut Up" slogan as well!!)
The problem is that none of us have the funds that the NSA has to
aquire an answer that will actually silence this thread.
The reality is: Who are you trying to protect it against?
new_guy wrote:
> I'm working on putting a website up now where I'll fully disclose the
> details. Lots of pictures and details. I will attribute the dd used to
> OpenBSD (the best OS on the planet bar none... although the dd on the
> install CD did not support the conv option... I would have li
On Jan 3, 2008 5:21 PM, Harpalus a Como <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Myth?
Have you read this:
http://www.nber.org/sys-admin/overwritten-data-guttman.html?
> Why are you so upset about this?
Myth's that compel people to waste time and energy should be destroyed.
> It's not myth.
Have you read
On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 04:08:08PM -0800, Marco S Hyman wrote:
> As for disk destruction... I don't know nor pretend to know what can
> and can not be recovered. Take a look at
>
> https://www.dss.mil/portal/ShowBinary/BEA%20Repository/new_dss_internet/isp/odaa/documents/clear_n_san_matrix_062
Myth? Why are you so upset about this? It's not myth.
The techniques involved in recovering data in the manner Marco and the NSA,
DoD, and many others describe isn't a matter of running a simple software
tool. It's a long, slow, annoying process that is also costly. But it is
possible. Not every c
Marco S Hyman wrote:
>
> "Brad Tilley" writes:
> > performed from the OpenBSD 4.2 install CD. I'll send it to the one
> > 'ISO Certified' company that agreed to examine it. If they cannot
>
> You keep throwing around the 'ISO Certified' tag as if it had some
> special meaning. Certified to wha
"Brad Tilley" writes:
> performed from the OpenBSD 4.2 install CD. I'll send it to the one
> 'ISO Certified' company that agreed to examine it. If they cannot
You keep throwing around the 'ISO Certified' tag as if it had some
special meaning. Certified to what standard? It makes a difference.
Diana Eichert wrote:
You can locate data from formatted and "wiped" hard drive, if you have
the resources behind you.
Can you point to an actual instance you know of where this has
happened? I don't mean that in an aggressive or challenging way, I'm
sincerely interested after reading that re
On Jan 3, 2008 4:52 PM, Marco Peereboom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Really man don't waste your money. You are talking to a single vendor.
> I have dealt with this in the past.
As have I... on multiple occasions. I am dealing with 3 vendors. 2 of
which declined to review the drive because of the
On Thu, 3 Jan 2008, Brad Tilley wrote:
SNIP
and nuking drives is *required*... it's silly and wasteful. One pass
from /dev/zero is more than enough for all cases.
HaHaHa, I wish my day job employer would let me take the drugs you're on.
diana
You can locate data from formatted and "wiped" hard drive, if you have the
resources behind you.
A place I knows has a large capacity degausser, which a number of drives
get thrown into for a rinse cycle, then they get tossed into a pile. When
the pile gets big enough the industrial metal shr
On Jan 3, 2008 3:35 PM, Marco Peereboom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Great. The companies I worked with charged $500 per megabyte. I am
> sure you'll spend that to prove whatever point you are trying to make.
Free analysis. I pay shipping. The drive cost 60 bucks. I'll probably
have a total of 1
> It can't be done. it's an urban legend, AFAICT.
Yes I know. That's the whole point of this. It would have been better
to donate a 100 bucks to OpenBSD. I'm just fed-up with the stupid
drivel about needing to burn, grind, overwrite, and nuke drives... and
even after all of that there's still a ch
I'm sorry Marco, but I think what you've said is "bullshit", as well contacted
several "so called" data recovery organizations, after admitting to have
"zeroed" the drive contents - They said recovery wasn't possible..
While it "might" be possible to get miscellaneous data off of a drive, it w
Great. The companies I worked with charged $500 per megabyte. I am
sure you'll spend that to prove whatever point you are trying to make.
Let me repeat this one more time; I have worked with several of these
companies in the past who have recovered data from flooded and burnt
hard disks. I also
On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 11:55:16 -0800 (PST), "new_guy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
said:
> Marco Peereboom wrote:
> >
> > bullshit.
> >
>
> I decided to put my money where my mouth is :)
>
> I bought a 80GB, Western Digital IDE hard drive. $60 USD. Attached it to
> a
> Windows XP laptop (usb-ide bridge), i
Marco Peereboom wrote:
>
> bullshit.
>
I decided to put my money where my mouth is :)
I bought a 80GB, Western Digital IDE hard drive. $60 USD. Attached it to a
Windows XP laptop (usb-ide bridge), initialized it, created one (1) primary
partition, formatted it NTFS and copied an older subversio
Hi!
On Tue, Jan 01, 2008 at 05:27:59PM -0600, Marco Peereboom wrote:
>Still recoverable. I have dealt with pretty badly burnt disks that we
>recovered data off. Really the grinder is the way to go.
Thermite should do the work too. Hot enough to bring the material out of
the ferromagnetic temper
Still recoverable. I have dealt with pretty badly burnt disks that we
recovered data off. Really the grinder is the way to go.
On Tue, Jan 01, 2008 at 02:14:53PM -0500, Christopher Linn wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 31, 2007 at 12:25:02PM -0600, Marco Peereboom wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 31, 2007 at 10:25:25
On Tue, Jan 01, 2008 at 02:14:53PM -0500, Christopher Linn wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 31, 2007 at 12:25:02PM -0600, Marco Peereboom wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 31, 2007 at 10:25:25AM -0800, Jon wrote:
> > >
> > > I see a lot of programs that are available to clean up the disks for
> > > Windows OS. Not wipe
On Mon, Dec 31, 2007 at 12:25:02PM -0600, Marco Peereboom wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 31, 2007 at 10:25:25AM -0800, Jon wrote:
> > hi
> >
> > I see a lot of programs that are available to clean up the disks for
> > Windows OS. Not wipe a disk but clean up deleted files so they cannot be
> > recovered.
>
On Dec 31, 2007, at 11:19 PM, Jon wrote:
hi
the problem is to clean up the un-used storage locations. When I
delete
files / logs/ etc... I don't want any one to recover them. I am not
asking
how to securly discard my disks...
The answers are (from the threads)
1. rm -P
2. fill u
hi
the problem is to clean up the un-used storage locations. When I delete
files / logs/ etc... I don't want any one to recover them. I am not asking
how to securly discard my disks...
The answers are (from the threads)
1. rm -P
2. fill up the disks with 0 and delete them when the disk
To expand on "bullshit" a little...
The longer you leave a 0 or 1 in a given place on a platter the more of
an "impression" it makes there. Writing over it with with random bits,
even several times, will not totally erase the deep magnetic impression
of the former bit. Forensics are more than good
bullshit.
On Mon, Dec 31, 2007 at 12:56:54PM -0800, new_guy wrote:
> xSAPPYx wrote:
> >
> > Someone linked me this article a couple calling into question the
> > ability to actually read overwritten data:
> > http://www.nber.org/sys-admin/overwritten-data-guttman.html
> >
> > I'de love to read s
On Mon, Dec 31, 2007 at 04:32:08PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Some geeks have had hard drive roast featuring thermite placed on top of hard
> drives to melt them.
>
> That sounds like a fun way to securely delete data given enough thermite.
nah, use one of these http://www.glasstorchtech.
00
From: Marco Peereboom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Jon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: misc@openbsd.org
Subject: Re: delete deleted data
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROT
"rm -P" would be what you're looking for..
But is it even required? It's not exactly an easy task to "undelete" a file
anyway... the process alone is an effecitve deterrent.
-Nix Fan.
Marco Peereboom wrote:
>
> Grind them up. There is nothing else you can do to "permanently" wipe
> disks. Residual magnetism is always there provided good enough
> equipment. If your data is that sensitive there is nothing else but the
> grinder.
>
Be sure that you do this yourself or persona
xSAPPYx wrote:
>
> Someone linked me this article a couple calling into question the
> ability to actually read overwritten data:
> http://www.nber.org/sys-admin/overwritten-data-guttman.html
>
> I'de love to read something from the other side, showing real examples
> of getting usable data off o
On Dec 31, 2007 10:25 AM, Marco Peereboom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Grind them up. There is nothing else you can do to "permanently" wipe
> disks. Residual magnetism is always there provided good enough
> equipment. If your data is that sensitive there is nothing else but the
> grinder.
Some
Jon-113 wrote:
>
> Is there any program for OpenBSD that will clean up the disks so that
> deleted files cannot be recovered.
>
/dev/zero or /dev/urandom either will work fine (the first being quicker
than the last)
--
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/delete-deleted-data-tp1
But as a stopgap, look into rm -P (on OpenBSD). Linux has "shred" too.
On Dec 31, 2007 1:25 PM, Marco Peereboom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Grind them up. There is nothing else you can do to "permanently" wipe
> disks. Residual magnetism is always there provided good enough
> equipment. If you
Grind them up. There is nothing else you can do to "permanently" wipe
disks. Residual magnetism is always there provided good enough
equipment. If your data is that sensitive there is nothing else but the
grinder.
On Mon, Dec 31, 2007 at 10:25:25AM -0800, Jon wrote:
> hi
>
> I see a lot of pr
Hi!
On Mon, Dec 31, 2007 at 10:25:25AM -0800, Jon wrote:
> I see a lot of programs that are available to clean up the disks for
>Windows OS. Not wipe a disk but clean up deleted files so they cannot be
>recovered.
> Is there any program for OpenBSD that will clean up the disks so that
>deleted fil
Jon wrote:
(not looking to delete a file securly - but to wipe the disk clean of
deleted file with out affecting the OS)
What problem are you trying to solve?
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