Good judicious reply, Hari. The dividing line is or should be sectarian versus
non-sectarian, a line which cuts across both camps - ML-ist and Trotskyist. I
respect Hari and David as serious, open-minded Marxists, regardless of past and
perhaps present differences between us. I could happily be
Good a.m. David:
So on the (admittedly rather long) quotation from 'The Communist League' I gave
to discuss with Marv my take on Italian fascism. I always will have time for
Clara/Klara Zetkin - and I will look her comments out, in the text by Ridell
you suggest. Thank you. I have found Zetkin's
Charlie, why are all your posts full of invective for Marv? How does this ad hominem attitude move the discussion forward? Can you explain your need to disparage his position to make your points?On Mar 14, 2024, at 9:20 PM, Marv Gandall wrote:Those interested in pursuing this further can consult
Those interested in pursuing this further can consult my exchanges with Hari
and Michael for my fuller understanding of fascism.
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Marv: "Charlie may consider Xi's China a fascist state. I don't..." The problem
here is not China. It is Marv's definition of fascism by three essential
features. If China meets them - and you say it does - but it is not fascist,
then what counts are not the three "essential" features but one's
On Thu, Mar 14, 2024 at 05:01 PM, Charlie wrote:
>
> Does the PRC meet these three "essential features"?
Yes and so did the USSR, China under Mao, Albania under Hoxha, etc. Did that
make them fascist? Western commentators who looked solely at their political
systems concluded there was no diff
Another test for Marv's throwback, formalistic criteria: "... a one party
state which will outlaw ... mass organizations and eliminate freedom of
assembly and the right to vote - essential features of fascism..." Does the PRC
meet these three "essential features"? Does Marv use the fascist lab
On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 07:52 PM, Michael Meeropol wrote:
>
> In other words, I am PARTIALLY persuaded by Marv's points ...but not all
> the way.
How about we finally reach agreement that it doesn’t matter very much whether
we define Trump as a fascist or not so long as Americans mobilize again
Hari, there were no "Marxist-Leninist Parties" anywhere in 1922. That includes
the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. [it would be good if you could clean
this up so that it is understandable to list, unless in fact this is quote from
someone else. It is VERY hard to tell what is YOU writing a
On Thu, Mar 14, 2024 at 07:32 AM, hari kumar wrote:
>
> I think (maybe wrong and misunderstanding you here) that you were saying
> fascism is brought in by the bourgeoisie at a time that its' bourgeois
> 'normal' channel rule of bourgeois democracy is threatened imminently by a
> working class ri
Good am Marv:
I am not saying Mussolini was a 'good guy' - there may be a misunderstanding.
I think (maybe wrong and misunderstanding you here) that you were saying
fascism is brought in by the bourgeoisie at a time that its' bourgeois 'normal'
channel rule of bourgeois democracy is threatened i
I second Michael Meeropol's comments.
Who today doesn't think Trump's party is fascist? Even his own followers do,
but they like it that way.
See Jon Stewart's "Daily Show " clip about this from.last week for example...
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I do think that the ruling class has NO INTEREST in fascism because the
working class is so weak --- but Trump is "SUI GENERIS" --- he is an
individual grifter who sees the Presidency is the ultimate grift --- ON THE
WAY, however, he will empower the American "ORBANITES" who think they'll
protect w
I may be missing your point about Mussolini, Hari. You surely know that
independent unions and strikes were also banned in fascist Italy and that the
government-controlled unions were part of a corporatist industrial regime in
which the state managed relations between workers and capitalists. It
Marv:
Mussolini did *not* have a militant movement to crush - the Turin workers
movement was already crushed. The other two fascists are in a different
category in regards to that.
Of course it is more likely that a rising working class movement will induce
such a right-wing fascist turn, but i
I understood from Charlie's intervention in the brief exchange between me and
Michael that he inclined towards Michael's view, widely held on the left, that
Trump was a fascist who would work outside of rather than within the system of
bourgeois democracy to attack the working class. Charlie pro
Marv thinks I believe "the Trumpists will launch a full-fledged assault to
replace the existing Constitution with a one party state which will outlaw the
Democrats and the unions and other mass organizations and eliminate freedom of
assembly and the right to vote - essential features of fascism
Yes but with a significant difference. Ted was not a Communist Party
member when he did his spying. Kllaus Fuchs in contrast was not just a
member of the German CP as a young student, In Kiel, Germany, he was a
street fighter for the Party which engaged in pitched battles with both
Socialist Party
[Edited Message Follows]
[Reason: Editorial and spelling changes.]
On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 09:20 AM, Charlie (predictably) wrote:
>
> On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 12:21 AM, Marv Gandall wrote:
>
>> I doubt they will attempt to destroy the existing constitutional
>> structures.
>
> This time Marv gi
On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 09:20 AM, Charlie (predictably) wrote:
>
> On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 12:21 AM, Marv Gandall wrote:
>
>> I doubt they will attempt to destroy the existing constitutional
>> structures.
>
> This time Marv gives us well less than a half-truth.
Charlie quotes well less than h
Dave, let's not forget Fuchs made the same decision as TED ...
On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 12:39 PM Dave Lindorff wrote:
> My view is that Oppenheimer should have done what Ted Hall did, or used
> his considerable clout to convince Roosevelt to bring America's wartime,
> the Soviet Union in on the b
My view is that Oppenheimer should have done what Ted Hall did, or used his
considerable clout to convince Roosevelt to bring America's wartime, the
Soviet Union in on the bomb project, or at least to alert them to what it
was doing in secret. The film presents Oppenheimer as a tragic figure
fighti
Are we as Marxists defending the sacred document? Could a constitutional convention be a revolutionary moment?On Mar 13, 2024, at 9:20 AM, Charlie wrote:On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 12:21 AM, Marv Gandall wrote:
I doubt they will attempt to destroy the existing constitutional structures. In fact, they
On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 12:21 AM, Marv Gandall wrote:
>
> I doubt they will attempt to destroy the existing constitutional
> structures. In fact, they claim to be the best defenders of The
> Constitution and their base takes them at their word.
This time Marv gives us well less than a half-truth
On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 04:57 PM, Mark Baugher wrote:
>
> Are they the same people who complained that the makers of "Oppenheimer"
> completely ignored the Navajo, the first victims of the US atomic bomb?
I wouldn't know about that, but here is Walsh's review of Martin Scorsese’s
Killers of the
Thanks for the reference to A Compassionate Spy, Michael. I didn’t know about
it, and will check it out. I hope Dave Lindorff hasn’t quit the list and has
just taken a pause.
On Trump as a fascist, he might well aspire to exercising the dictatorial
powers of a Mussolini, Franco, or Hitler, but
Michael found the WSWS reference to identity politics fanaticism in Hollywood
"undecipherable." It's pretty simple. In 2020 the Oscars "academy" adopted
numerical checklist requirements of "representation and inclusion standards"
for a movie to be eligible for Best Picture. Read them here:
https
> On Mar 12, 2024, at 1:36 PM, Marv Gandall wrote:
>
>> that the identity politics fanatics were relatively quiet
Are they the same people who complained that the makers of "Oppenheimer"
completely ignored the Navajo, the first victims of the US atomic bomb?
Mark
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Much as I hate to disagree with Comrade Marv --- and I do , this is not a
gratuitous aside I would like to (everyone knows what's coming) agree
with the reviewer that Trump and Trumpism are a "fascism on the march" ---
I do --- however -- agree that the swipe at "identity politics fanatics"
wa
The WSWS”s David Walsh, whose reviews were much admired by his his fellow
left-wing film critic Louis Proyect, celebrates the best picture and other
Oscars awarded to ”Oppenheimer" and says its unexpected box office success
reflects the popular mood of "widespread anxiety and powerful
anti-esta
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