On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 09:29:24PM -0700, Josh Triplett wrote:
> Brian Thomas Sniffen wrote:
> > Josh Triplett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >>Consider for a moment a license that said something like "You must
> >>either distribute under this license with source, or under a proprietary
> >>license
On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 03:37:05PM -0700, Don Armstrong wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Sven Luther wrote:
> > Protection against users not respecting the licence and reusing
> > GPLed code in proprietary software for example ?
>
> That's what organizations like the FSF are for. If you're concerned
On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 09:29:24PM -0700, Josh Triplett wrote:
> > I don't see how this makes it non-free. You are distributing under the
> > same license you received the software under, so DFSG 3 is satisfied,
But you're not. The license permissions you received don't permit using
the code und
On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 04:17:22PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 03:22:34PM +0200, Daniel Stenberg wrote:
> > Please forgive a new subscriber if this subject already has been debated to
> > death. In that case, just let me know and I'll quietly crawl away again.
>
> > Ok,
On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 03:28:16AM -0400, Glenn Maynard wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 09:29:24PM -0700, Josh Triplett wrote:
> > > I don't see how this makes it non-free. You are distributing under the
> > > same license you received the software under, so DFSG 3 is satisfied,
>
> But you're n
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On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 10:02:06AM +0200, Francesco P. Lovergine wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 04:17:22PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> > > I'm not a Debian guru, but I scanned through the list of apps depending
> > > on
> > > curl to see what licenses they use, and I stopped when I had coll
On 2004-08-19 08:06:27 +0100 Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
I still wonder what this means for europe, where assigning copyright
seems to
be illegal or something.
Measures with similar effect seem to be possible in other European
jurisdictions. See the FSFE's work on the FLA.
http:
On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 10:25:34AM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 03:28:16AM -0400, Glenn Maynard wrote:
> > But you're not. The license permissions you received don't permit using
> > the code under a completely difference license; for example, you can't
> > link the code wit
Steve Langasek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> If your understanding of the license exception requirements were
> correct, it would be a very easy loophole for people to exploit, using
> GPL-compatible library layers to "sanitize" the licenses of library
> dependencies.
>
> But in fact, the GPL's de
On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 10:25:34AM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 03:28:16AM -0400, Glenn Maynard wrote:
> > On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 09:29:24PM -0700, Josh Triplett wrote:
> > > > I don't see how this makes it non-free. You are distributing under the
> > > > same license you r
On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 04:56:02AM -0400, Glenn Maynard wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 10:25:34AM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 03:28:16AM -0400, Glenn Maynard wrote:
> > > But you're not. The license permissions you received don't permit using
> > > the code under a comp
On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 03:28:16AM -0400, Glenn Maynard wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 09:29:24PM -0700, Josh Triplett wrote:
> > > I don't see how this makes it non-free. You are distributing under the
> > > same license you received the software under, so DFSG 3 is satisfied,
> On Thu, Aug 19,
On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 01:56:07PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 04:56:02AM -0400, Glenn Maynard wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 10:25:34AM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> > > But if upstreqm incorporqtes your changes, thus creating a modification of
> > > your QPLed work, you
Sven Luther wrote:
But if upstreqm incorporqtes your changes, thus creating a modification of
your QPLed work, you have the same right as he has, don't you ?
To distribute the modified (combined) version of your QPL'd work under a
proprietaty license?
In other words, if I submit a patch to
Matthew Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> DFSG #5. Discrimination against a person or groups of persons. In this
> case, the group that contains !(initial developer). A common definition of
> discrimination in the sense of exclusion is that exclusion is discrimination
> when it makes the dist
On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 09:56:45PM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 01:56:07PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 04:56:02AM -0400, Glenn Maynard wrote:
> > > On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 10:25:34AM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> > > > But if upstreqm incorporqtes y
Sven Luther wrote:
Well, imagine the following case. I have contributed some code to the linux
kernel, if i want to sue SCO over it, i have to go to the US, and ruin myself
in lawyer and other such nonsense. This clearly mean that only the rich and
powerfull have the right to get their licence re
On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 02:45:11PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 09:56:45PM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 01:56:07PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> > > Now, you may claim that the patch may be more significant than the
> > > original
> > > code, or equ
On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 09:38:24PM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 10:25:34AM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 03:28:16AM -0400, Glenn Maynard wrote:
> > > On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 09:29:24PM -0700, Josh Triplett wrote:
> > > > > I don't see how this makes
Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Walter Landry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I would say that any license that compels modifications to be under
> > anything other than a copyleft is problematic. Copyleft is only
> > allowed because it is explicitly grandfathered in by DFSG #10.
>
On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 10:42:36PM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 02:45:11PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 09:56:45PM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
> > > On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 01:56:07PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> > > > Now, you may claim that the p
On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 08:19:19AM -0400, Joe Moore wrote:
> Sven Luther wrote:
> >
> >But if upstreqm incorporqtes your changes, thus creating a modification of
> >your QPLed work, you have the same right as he has, don't you ?
>
> To distribute the modified (combined) version of your QPL'd work
On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 08:41:57AM -0400, Joe Moore wrote:
> Sven Luther wrote:
> >Well, imagine the following case. I have contributed some code to the linux
> >kernel, if i want to sue SCO over it, i have to go to the US, and ruin
> >myself
> >in lawyer and other such nonsense. This clearly mean
Walter Landry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Oh, come on. Any argument that implies that we only consider the GPL
>> free because we explicitly say it is is insane.
>
> I am hardly the first person to bring this up [1] [2]. This comment
> from Raul Mill
On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 08:33:13AM -0400, Walter Landry wrote:
> I am hardly the first person to bring this up [1] [2]. This comment
> from Raul Miller is particularly illuminating [3]
>
> As I remember it, DFSG#10 was specifically added to the DFSG because
> some people were saying that ther
Sven Luther writes:
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 08:41:57AM -0400, Joe Moore wrote:
>
> > Similarly, did you follow the Microsoft vs. Lindo*s issue? Microsoft
> > sued in US courts, failed to get an injunction, then "venue shopped" for
> > a court that would give them the ruling they wanted, endi
Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Brian Thomas Sniffen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> This is not Free. It gives these grants:
>>
>> 1) Distribute with source, passing this license along.
>>
>> 2) or, if you're Bob, under a proprietary license without source.
>>
>> Now I have only
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Brian Thomas Sniffen wrote:
>
>> > Now consider a similar license with one change: only the original
>> > developer may release under a proprietary license. Such a change
>> > reduces the number of people who can take the software proprietary. It
Brian Thomas Sniffen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> Why is granting of extra freedoms non-free?
>
> It isn't. The part of my message that you snipped made clear that
> it's the requirement that I must grant extra permissions which is
> non-free.
What
Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Brian Thomas Sniffen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>> Why is granting of extra freedoms non-free?
>>
>> It isn't. The part of my message that you snipped made clear that
>> it's the requirement that I must
* David Schleef <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2004-08-17 15:23]:
> The Debian Open Use Logo License is generally considered to be
> non-DFSG free. However, it appears to be a widely held belief
> that Debian should have _some_ logo that is DFSG-free, and that
> the license of the open logo should be change
Brian Thomas Sniffen writes:
> Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > Brian Thomas Sniffen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >>> Why is granting of extra freedoms non-free?
> >>
> >> It isn't. The part of my message that you snipped made cl
On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 12:09:01PM -0400, Brian Thomas Sniffen wrote:
> Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > Brian Thomas Sniffen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >>> Why is granting of extra freedoms non-free?
> >>
> >> It isn't. The par
On Thu, 2004-08-19 at 17:09, Brian Thomas Sniffen wrote:
> Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >
> > What is the difference between granting of extra permissions and
> > granting of extra freedoms?
>
> Nothing. Therefore, I require you to grant me a permissive license to
> all code you
On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 05:21:16PM +0100, Martin Michlmayr - Debian Project
Leader wrote:
> * David Schleef <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2004-08-17 15:23]:
> > The Debian Open Use Logo License is generally considered to be
> > non-DFSG free. However, it appears to be a widely held belief
> > that Debian
Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> that's not Free. The QPL says "BSD to inria/cristal, copyleft/patch
>> to everyone else, and that pair must be passed along" -- that "must",
>> that added restriction, is the non-free part.
>
> I'm not sure about this.
>
> As stated, that "must" is inher
On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 11:09:11AM +0200, Måns Rullgård wrote:
> Steve Langasek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > If your understanding of the license exception requirements were
> > correct, it would be a very easy loophole for people to exploit, using
> > GPL-compatible library layers to "sanitize
Steve Langasek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 11:09:11AM +0200, Måns Rullgård wrote:
>> Steve Langasek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>> > If your understanding of the license exception requirements were
>> > correct, it would be a very easy loophole for people to exploit, us
On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 03:35:49PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 08:41:57AM -0400, Joe Moore wrote:
> > Sven Luther wrote:
> > >Well, imagine the following case. I have contributed some code to the linux
> > >kernel, if i want to sue SCO over it, i have to go to the US, and ru
Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Thu, 2004-08-19 at 17:09, Brian Thomas Sniffen wrote:
>> Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> >
>> > What is the difference between granting of extra permissions and
>> > granting of extra freedoms?
>>
>> Nothing. Therefore, I require yo
David Nusinow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 12:09:01PM -0400, Brian Thomas Sniffen wrote:
>> Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>
>> > Brian Thomas Sniffen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >> Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> >>> Why is granting of extr
Michael Poole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Brian Thomas Sniffen writes:
>
>> Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>
>> > Brian Thomas Sniffen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >> Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> >>> Why is granting of extra freedoms non-free?
>> >>
>> >> It is
On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 01:56:07PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> > Nope. Under QPL#3, I can only distribute my changes as patch files; I
> > can't distribute the work with my changes incorporated. However, the
> > original author can, since I'm required to give him special permission
> > to do so u
On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 03:30:13PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> Indeed, so by arguing that way, we could bring this clause to be modified by
> the upstream author, could we not ?
Yes, you could probably trick them into changing licenses by convincing
them that the license says something that it do
On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 09:47:42PM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
> > If not, for example, this would seem to imply that software under the GPL
> > with a special exception releasing John Smith from the requirement to
> > release
> > source would fail.
> >
> > I think that's clearly silly, because
On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 11:09:11AM +0200, Måns Rullgård wrote:
> When using dynamic linking that is not necessarily the case. Most
> dynamic linkers use lazy loading of libraries, such that the openssl
> libraries would not actually be mapped in to the process address space
> until one of its func
Here's the snarly bit:
Take a copy of curl, not built with ssl support. Build your GPLed
application, linking it to this curl. There should unarguably be no
problems here - everything involved is GPL-compatible.
Now, go and build a copy of curl that is linked to openssl. Install
that one instead,
On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 08:59:44PM +0200, Måns Rullgård wrote:
> > I didn't say anything about derived works. Neither does the GPL when
> > talking about source code.
> >
> > The GPL also doesn't define source code to include "all modules it
> > uses", it defines it to include "all modules it cont
David Schleef <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 08:59:44PM +0200, Måns Rullgård wrote:
>> > I didn't say anything about derived works. Neither does the GPL when
>> > talking about source code.
>> >
>> > The GPL also doesn't define source code to include "all modules it
>> > us
On Fri, Aug 20, 2004 at 12:26:43AM +0200, Måns Rullgård wrote:
> David Schleef <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > For one thing, it's absolutely not possible to run the binary in
> > such a way that openssl is not part of the process image.
>
> Since when is Debian distributing linked process images?
David Schleef <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 11:09:11AM +0200, Måns Rullgård wrote:
>> When using dynamic linking that is not necessarily the case. Most
>> dynamic linkers use lazy loading of libraries, such that the openssl
>> libraries would not actually be mapped in to t
Måns Rullgård wrote:
David Schleef <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Symbol references are not necessarily resolved at that time, unless
you define LD_BIND_NOW or are using prelinking. There's really no
method of doing "lazy linking" as you suggest with C, since it would
either fail (such as with gl
Brian Thomas Sniffen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In any case, a more direct answer is that your original question about
> the difference between grants of permissions and freedoms is
> irrelevant. I was and am talking about the difference between a grant
> of extra permissions and a compelled gr
* Andrew Suffield:
> Here's the snarly bit:
>
> Take a copy of curl, not built with ssl support. Build your GPLed
> application, linking it to this curl. There should unarguably be no
> problems here - everything involved is GPL-compatible.
>
> Now, go and build a copy of curl that is linked to op
Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Walter Landry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Oh, come on. Any argument that implies that we only consider the GPL
> >> free because we explicitly say it is is insane.
> >
> > I am hardly the first person t
Glenn Maynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 09:47:42PM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
> > > If not, for example, this would seem to imply that software under the GPL
> > > with a special exception releasing John Smith from the requirement to
> > > release
> > > source would fa
Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 10:02:01AM -0400, Brian Thomas Sniffen wrote:
> > Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > >> I fail to see how requiring modifiers to contribute to proprietary
> > >> software helps free software.
> > >
> > > Because the proprieta
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