Re: [RE-wrenches] Lead placment and length on new PV Panels

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi william 

The technic I use is to build or buy custom lengths of jumpers. Then I can 
mount the MLPE exactly as I want with the wire routing to my preference. 

Yes it’s the most expensive route: more wire,  more clips, but also the 
cleanest. 
And often the MLPE don’t have the same connectors as the panels which require 
adapters anyway. 

Jay



> On Mar 25, 2022, at 4:56 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Friends:
>  
> I have been designing a large-ish off-grid system over the last few weeks.  
> This will be our first off-grid system to require MLRSS.  We chose the Tigo 
> TS4-A-F system.
>  
> In order to make certain the Tigo will work with modules that we can get our 
> hands on, we brought in a few samples to try and connect with the Tigos.  
> What we found is that with many of the new PV panels, the leads connect to 
> the two long sides of the panels and are often too short to practically route 
> to the frame-mounted Tigos.
>  
> This got me to thinking:  Many panels are now configured with leads connected 
> to the two long sides.  Many new panels are coming out with shorter leads.  
> Virtually all new roof-mounted installation will need some form of MLPE.  
> These new panels will be ill-suited to connect to those MLPE devices.
>  
> This has to do with the fact that instead of in the old days, when each panel 
> connected to a neighbor on either side, each panel now connects to a single 
> device, the MLPE.  The leads must able to reach that MLPE without being 
> pulled, banjo-string-tight across a void.  If PV leads cannot be supported, 
> they will end of laying on the roof.  Can we agree that is a bad thing?
>  
> Have any of you consider this situation?  It is kind of complicated and hard 
> to explain.  I attempted to do so by writing a web page dedicated to the 
> subject.  I finished the site today but I am not sure it communicates the 
> dilemma adequately.  You can find it here.
>  
> I would be most grateful if some of you more experienced installers could 
> look this over and let me know if this problem has come across your radar and 
> what you are doing about this issue.
>  
> Thanks in advance.
>  
> William Miller
>  
> Miller Solar
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
> 805-438-5600
> www.millersolar.com
> CA Lic. 773985
>  
>  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire short?

[jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi Chris,

Does this happen with all 4 sets of 2 in series modules?

jay

> On Apr 4, 2022, at 10:12 AM, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hey folks:
>  
> We have a problem we just can’t figure out.  We have a customer in OK with a 
> simple array of eight Trina TSM 310-DD05H(II) modules, four stings of two 
> modules into the combiner (Midnite MNPV6).  Simple, right?  He connects two 
> modules, gets his 73.2VDC and lands his PV output leads on the circuit 
> breaker and discovers he only has 39VDC.  So, what are the possibilities?  
> Loose connections at the MC4 connectors?  Bad blocking diode?  Ideas anyone?
>  
> He’s in Henryetta, OK, and we cannot seem to find anyone local to help him.  
> All ideas appreciated!
>  
> Best,
>  
> Chris Daum
> Oasis Montana Inc.
> 406-777- 4321
> 406-777-4309 fax
> www.oasismontana.com 
>  
>  
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[RE-wrenches] Fronius primo grid settings

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

I wonder if anyone can tell me which is the correct setting for 240v 60hz 
w/neutral on a fronius primo. 
The manual doesn’t have the same options as the inverter. 

I don’t need California or Hawaii settings. 

Thanks
Jay

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[RE-wrenches] Enphase

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

I’ve been following the enphase thread. 

I’ve used AP systems before and so far reliable and much less expensive. 

Their new DS3 inverters are much less expensive and larger capacity

But to the point of starting voltage MPPT range and watts 
DS3 voltage range:
DS3 S/L 16-60v,
DS3 26-60v

MPPT range: 
DS3 -S 22-48v   
DS3-L   25-55v
DS3.   32-55

Wattage
-S 640 va
-L  768 va
DS3  880 va

I’ve got a system for micros coming up and probably leaning this way. 
Curious what others think

Jay





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[RE-wrenches] Schneider XW MPPT 80/600 rapid shut down

[jay via RE-wrenches]

HI All

I’ve got a project coming up that has specified a Schneider XW 80/600 
controller.

Its going to need RS.

Is the only product still the Tigo TS4-A-F?

thanks

jay

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Re: [RE-wrenches] OB Radian question

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Get a section of 8” gutter. 
It will fit nicely under the inverter. 
Obviously cutting holes in the top for all the wire, inverter connections. 

I haven’t tried the vfx covers but it’s the same plastic insulated connectors, 
should fit. 
Jay

> On May 7, 2022, at 6:12 PM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Further Clarification, Overcurrent protection etc. already exists, i’m not 
> about to spend another $1k or more to replace it. 
> 
>> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 7:56 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches 
>>  wrote:
>> Just get an empty GSLC, at least it has the breakers
>> Jerry
>> 
>>> On Sat, May 7, 2022, 1:44 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches 
>>>  wrote:
>>> Ok, time to break wrenches radio silence over the last week.
>>> 
>>> My question concerns the Radian battery terminal connections. I don't need 
>>> nor want to use the expensive GSLC box in a 23-y.o. off-grid upgrade to a 
>>> Radian. That means the battery-to-inverter connections will be exposed, 
>>> unless I find another way to enclose them.
>>> 
>>> Do those OB snap-on terminal covers used with the FX series work with the 
>>> Radian? Any other ideas? 
>>> 
>>> Thanks. Over and out.
>>> --
>>> Kirk Herander / kirkh@vermont.solar
>>> Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC
>>> Celebrating our 31st Anniversary 1991-2022!!
>>> www.vermont.solar
>>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>>> 802.863.1202
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> Celebrating our 31st Anniversary 1991-2022!!
> www.vermont.solar
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
> 802.863.1202
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi Chris,

Can’t you increase the size of the KO’s?

Jay

> On May 7, 2022, at 7:17 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Jason,
> 
> I think I agree with your interpretation of the wiring diagram. My hesitation 
> is, with a 1-1/4” KO for AC inputs, only choice seems to be a >24” stub 
> conduit for 2/0 conductores to a fused disconnect. Not a fun pipe to bend…and 
> extra BOS seems like a less than ideal solution. 
> 
> Is this your conclusion as well? 
> 
>> On Sun, Apr 17, 2022 at 10:38 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches 
>>  wrote:
>> Yes and no, I think this is a tap, "a tap shall be permitted anywhere along 
>> a feeder"  ' as long as it is less than a 10-foot rule or 25-foot rule 
>> ending in a listed OCPD with a rating sufficient to handle the maximum 
>> overcurrent'.  Service equipment residential is rated for fault currents of 
>> up to 10,000 amps withstand.Refer to 240.4.B and 240.21 (B) (1 & 2) 
>> 
>>> On Sun, Apr 17, 2022 at 10:39 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
>>>  wrote:
>>> But this isn't a tap. It's a feeder conductor connected to an OCPD. 
>>> 
>>> I guess if you don't have a grid in or generator in or AC Coupled PV, you 
>>> could just call it an inverter output circuit and it could be sized 
>>> accordingly. But it would still need to be protected at it's source by an 
>>> appropriately rated OCPD. Don't get me wrong... I don't think there is a 
>>> real safety issue here, but I also don't see how the NEC allows the 
>>> conductor to be sized for anything less than 200A.
>>> 
>>> Jason 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 11:29 AM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches 
  wrote:
 The tap rule says you can reduce to 10% of the nominal size for 10 feet 
 and protect at the downstream OCPD or 25% for 25 feet for solar with 
 multiple sources see 705
 
> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 9:16 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> That's what I'm thinking. You would need to use a 200A conductor to a 
> separate load out OCPD before downsizing the wire. I guess there are pros 
> and cons, but it seems this is geared toward whole house backup for 200A 
> services. I'm eager to get an opportunity to use it in that scenario. 
> 
> Jason
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 10:06 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches 
>>  wrote:
>> Jason,
>> 
>> Any additional OCPD downstream of the 200A load output breaker could 
>> allow for a smaller wire size to be used at these terminals. For 
>> example, load output conductors run to a 100A main breaker panel board.  
>> Obviously depending on circumstances, a #4 copper could fit the bill. 
>> 
>> What I’m not extremely  excited about with the new design is that in an 
>> off-grid scenario with a generator and smart load, we would now need to 
>> integrate an AC disconnect for generator input (grid)  and either a 
>> fused disconnect or loads panel for any smart load output. With the 12K 
>> unit, the integrated breakers help cut down on BOS and install time. 
>> 
>> -Chris 
>> 
>>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 5:35 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches 
>>>  wrote:
>>> Hello, The overcurrent device is to protect the conductors.  you can 
>>> put any size wire, but you must protect with the overcurrent device.  
>>> REmember in solar equipment; you may have more than one supply source.  
>>> The DC best example is solar modules connected in parallel,  on
>>> 
 On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 8:26 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches 
  wrote:
 You must meet all expected source output potentials within the design 
 and operating limits, as long as the distribution panel and connected 
 wiring is rated for the max output of the protected source then you 
 are good. A 200 ATS connected to a 10 kW genny does not require 2/0 as 
 it will never meet that rating. Just remember its whatever the max 
 output can be plus your margin.
 
> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 5:44 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> Hi Jason,
> 
> You bring up a valid point….in an off-grid scenario with the 15k do 
> you size the conductors to the continuous capacity, surge capacity or 
> the OCPD of the unit? 
> 
> -Chris 
> 
>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 4:01 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
>>  wrote:
>> P.S. ICYMI, this inverter has a massive combined AC coupled and DC 
>> coupled capacity. They allow 15kWdc plus 19.2kWac!!! Impressive.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 10:59 AM Jason Szumlanski 
>>>  wrote:
>>> I'm not following the wiring diagrams for this new inverter. It has 
>>> 200A pass-through capability with an integrated 200A

Re: [RE-wrenches] dual channel charge controllers?

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi Kirk

You didn’t give a lot of info but I don’t think there is a product that meets 
your requirements. 

I’m guessing its either 24v or 48v system with with a  C40 controller. 

Personally I’d leave the old system as 20 year old modules are not cost 
effectively worth messing with. 
And if you did, you’d get what a couple hundred watts more at max maybe?

And then use the CC that best fits your system for the 5kw new. 100 amp, 
midnite or OB or Schneider 

My 2 cents 
Jay

> On Jun 1, 2022, at 3:31 PM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> All,
> I have an off-grid customer adding more PV to their 20 yr old array. It would 
> be s convenient to find a dual channel controller to keep each array 
> separate, instead of sourcing separate new controllers for each array. . The 
> original controller is not mppt. Arrays are 2kw(old Astropowers on roof) and 
> 5kw( bifacials on ground), respectively. Mixing and matching old and new will 
> not work and is bad practice anyway. Thanks.
> -- 
> Kirk Herander / kirkh@vermont.solar
> Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC
> Celebrating our 31st Anniversary 1991-2022!!
> www.vermont.solar
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
> 802.863.1202
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Re: [RE-wrenches] wire management on Qcell AC module

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

These modules are designed for  racking w/o MLPE and the rest of the world that 
doesn’t use MLPE. 

And code in both 300.11 and 330 ish say that wires need to be supported between 
6” and 12” ( I’m not sure which is the correct one to use, I’ve always been 
told to use 12”) from any box or termination. Which means to me that wire 
extensions are required. 
Adapters might be needed anyway If the modules and MLPE don’t have same ends to 
meet both OEM, UL, and NEC requirements. 



Just the way it is, but boy did I wish they made those Junction boxes with wire 
mounting clips on them so we could easily go across the module in the middle 
and be supported. 

Jay






> On Jun 2, 2022, at 9:39 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Regarding the tape on the back sheet
> I have seen Novis installers keep the tape to secure the modules and I have 
> also seen it with the tape stll attached to the wires laying on the roof so 
> in my humble opinion the tape is for shipping only and is not to be used as a 
> wire management system. 
> Jerry 
> NABCEP PV Inspector
> 
>> On Thu, Jun 2, 2022 at 6:37 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches 
>>  wrote:
>> Hi All, 
>> 
>> I just got some of the Qcell 360w AC modules that have the Enphase 
>> microinverter factory applied to the back. The module is the half cut cell 
>> type with the DC leads coming from either side of the middle of the module. 
>> The modules come with the wires taped to the back of the module. If you 
>> remove that tape, there appears to be almost no way to properly manage those 
>> wires. Is that tape meant to just keep the wire on the back of the module 
>> forever? Would that even last more than a year? I am curious what other 
>> people have done for these if they have used them or something similar. 
>> Maybe if you get the rail in the right spot, the wires will just sit on the 
>> rail...
>> 
>> I realize that we have had a thread on wire management with half cut cell 
>> modules before, but this is a little different, as I am specifically asking 
>> about that tape and if anyone knows if it holds up over time.
>> 
>> Cheers, 
>> Dave
>> 
>> -- 
>>  
>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E.
>> Owner | Sungineer Solar
>> p: he | him | his
>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850
>> w: www.sungineersolar.com
>> c: (607) 288-2898
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[RE-wrenches] Best peal and stick zip tie anchor

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

I’m wondering if anyone has ever used a high quality VHB zip tie attachment 
base on the center “ junction” box of a mid junction box panel. 

I’m just looking for options to anchor the wire on that perfect location, which 
has no attachment. 

And if you have what are the best parts to get. 

Wiring for MLPE on Unirac RM10 

Thx

Jay






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Re: [RE-wrenches] Li Replacements for Lead-acid Bank

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

I agree with John

A pretty simple fix is to install a relay on the AC side controlled by the AUX 
of the inverter. 

Jay

> On Jun 10, 2022, at 6:17 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Matt,  I have several systems with the same mix working ok except that the 
> low battery cutoff can’t be set high enough to shut down the inverter before 
> the BMS shuts off the battery.  Have had to manually restart the batteries.  
> Problem only occurs if generator doesn’t start as programmed or manually 
> started.  I install an iota 48v charger wired into the dc bus to jump start 
> the system in worst case scenario where charge controllers are also shut down 
> and generator can feed in bypass mode to provide a hot outlet for the IOTA.  
> The IOTA charger also serves as a small backup generator input pathway 
> without having to change any charger settings in the inverter.
> 
> John B 
> 
>> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 7:08 AM Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches 
>>  wrote:
>> Hello Wrenches,
>> 
>> I've got customers with an ailing battery bank and I'm working to sketch out 
>> a replacement plan.  I'd like to offer them a Li option, but they have a 
>> suite of older electronics and I'm writing to ask the list if anyone feels 
>> like they've settled on a Li brand that works well with pre-Li electronics.  
>> Glad for any suggestions.  Thanks in advance!  
>> 
>> The bank size is currently 1,110Ah/48V.  The following electronics are 
>> installed:
>> 2008 OB VFX
>> 2012 OB VFX
>> 2008 OB MX60
>> 2012 MS Classic X2
>> 
>> 2008 OB Mate
>> 2010 Trimetric
>> 
>> -Matt
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sherald
>> PIMBY Energy, LLC
>> 304-704-5943
>> 
>> www.getpimby.blogspot.com
>> www.getpimby.com
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Li Replacements for Lead-acid Bank

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

I would add that there is a big range in LVD in lithium batteries. 

Simpliphi has a really high one, others much lower which do work with older 
equipment and their LBCO settings. 

Jay

> On Jun 10, 2022, at 9:15 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Matt
> Look at the fortress Evault Max 18.5  BMS, display, battery enclosure all 
> together and they work well better than the simplify parts and pieces,
> Jerry
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 4:08 AM Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches 
>>  wrote:
>> Hello Wrenches,
>> 
>> I've got customers with an ailing battery bank and I'm working to sketch out 
>> a replacement plan.  I'd like to offer them a Li option, but they have a 
>> suite of older electronics and I'm writing to ask the list if anyone feels 
>> like they've settled on a Li brand that works well with pre-Li electronics.  
>> Glad for any suggestions.  Thanks in advance!  
>> 
>> The bank size is currently 1,110Ah/48V.  The following electronics are 
>> installed:
>> 2008 OB VFX
>> 2012 OB VFX
>> 2008 OB MX60
>> 2012 MS Classic X2
>> 
>> 2008 OB Mate
>> 2010 Trimetric
>> 
>> -Matt
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sherald
>> PIMBY Energy, LLC
>> 304-704-5943
>> 
>> www.getpimby.blogspot.com
>> www.getpimby.com
>> 
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[RE-wrenches] wireless water tank level monitor

[jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi All,

Does anyone have recommendations  for a wireless water tank level monitor

Looking for multiple levels, not just empty.
It is strictly for monitoring, not control

Could be cell service or internet ( which would be connected via wireless 
radio) and its offgrid 

Thanks in advance,

jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] GT inverter for SWWP turbine

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi Jeremy,

Sol ark and Outback skybox. 
Might be others. 

It might be tricky dealing with the wind machine w/o batteries. 

Jay

> On Jun 28, 2022, at 4:12 PM, Jeremy Coxon via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> We have a customer who has a legacy off grid system which includes a SWWP 
> whisper 200.  They now have utility power to the property and so they want to 
> go straight grid tie and ditch the batteries and off grid system (even though 
> it’s all in perfect working order).  Anyone know of an inverter that we could 
> use to accomplish this goal?
> 
> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP 
> Certified MWBE
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Small Industrial Propane Generators

[jay via RE-wrenches]

Most of the other brands:

Cummins/onan
Kohler

Seem to now start at 24kw for liquid cooled/1800 RPM, but really nice units, 
many options:

To me the biggest reason to chose one is which has the closest/best 
service/warranty company.

Jay




> On Jun 29, 2022, at 8:54 AM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> Wrico International Eugene,Or
> Expensive but top tier
> 
> On Wed, Jun 29, 2022 at 7:39 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches 
>  > wrote:
> Hello Wrenches,
> 
> Does anyone have a recommendation for a small, industrial propane generator? 
> Something rated for prime power with reliable starting.  I need it in the 
> 12-20kW range.  Hard to find them this small.
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac Lewis
> 
> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates
> 
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> 
> -- 
> 
> Michael Morningstar
> 
> Morningstar Electric
> PO Box 1494
> Mount Shasta, CA 96067
> 530-921-0560
> mjmornings...@gmail.com 
> 
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[RE-wrenches] Schneider XW+

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi all

A buddy called me with the following problem. 

He was given a 5548 XW manufactured in 2019 that doesn’t work. As best as we 
can figure it never worked. Still trying to get that info. 
In trying to diagnose, he noticed the transformer is rated at 0-28v and 
0-120vac per leg out. I have photos. 

When he feeds the transformer with 48vac it produces 480vac out. 240vac per 
leg. 

But it’s a 48v unit?

Anyone have a thought on this?  Is it possible that the wrong transformer got 
put in it?  
I know they used to make 24v units?

Thanks

Jay


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Leakage of current

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi Ron

I would check via clamp on meter to see if/which string of modules has current 
on it. 

Jay

> On Jul 10, 2022, at 3:10 PM, Ron Young via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have a customer that has self installed an array on a metal roof using APS 
> Rapid shutdown devices. The roof rack is standard rails and L-feet. It is a 
> high voltage system that will be connected to a Sol-Ark but it has yet to be 
> connected, just MC cables from each set of 8 panels (3 altogether) run back 
> to the location where the Sol-Ark will be installed. He raised a concern 
> about what he described as leakage of current to the metal roof:
> 
> "I did experience noticeable “leakage” of current to our roof prior to 
> installation of the ground cable...Working around the metal roof one could 
> definitely feel the tingle of the current, and it persisted until I had the 
> ground cable connected.”
> 
> My only guess is that possibly the APS devices are leaking at connection 
> point but not sure how to check or he had an unprotected end of the MC cable 
> touching the roof but that wouldn’t leak with the APS shutoff installed as it 
> would need a signal from the transmitter that is not yet installed in the 
> Sol-Ark. The panels are LG375’s.
> 
> Ron
> earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ7 versus IQ8

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi Jason

And if you don’t have the smart controller/battery system then you do not need 
this proprietary rapid shut down switch correct?

Jay



> On Jul 12, 2022, at 3:25 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Yes, they require a proprietary rapid shutdown switch that connects to the 
> smart controller. This would be in addition to a visible load break 
> disconnect if the utility requires it. You cannot fulfill both requirements 
> with one switch, and it requires a line voltage circuit be run from the smart 
> controller to the rapid shutdown switch. 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Tue, Jul 12, 2022, 5:15 PM Mark Frye via RE-wrenches 
>>  wrote:
>> Do you need the additional switch if you use the Enphase battery?
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
>> Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2022 11:38 AM
>> To: RE-wrenches 
>> Cc: Jason Szumlanski 
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ7 versus IQ8
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> I am trying to figure out why it is a good idea we use the IQ8 in anything 
>> other than a solar only backup scenario. If there are Enphase batteries 
>> involved, wouldn't the IQ7 do the same job on the roof? In a straight grid 
>> tied scenario, again the IQ7 would do the exact same thing. You would not 
>> have an upgrade path to solar only backup, of course.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> I'm just having a hard time understanding the value proposition of the IQ8 
>> in most of the situations I encounter. They cost significantly more, and you 
>> need an additional rapid shutdown switch when using batteries that can be 
>> quite a pain in some scenarios.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Am I missing something about the switching speed, energy harvest capability, 
>> or the way they interact with batteries that makes them better?
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> P.S. I am aware of the very small power output differences by model number 
>> and I am referring exclusively to 240 volt applications. I understand the 
>> 208 volt advantages of the IQ8. 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> 
>> Florida Solar Design Group 
>> 
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[RE-wrenches] lithium in cold weather/heating

[jay via RE-wrenches]

HI All,

As I get more calls for offgrid designs with lithium batteries I”m wondering 
what you all are doing to keep the batteries warm when it gets cold.  For some 
of you 0 F will seem mild, others super cold.  

Doing a battery box and heating that or heating the whole inverter/battery shed?

I’m definitely not looking at batteries like battle born with the built in 
heaters. 

Simpliphi, Discover, some of the newer server rack ones ( UL listed), etc. 


Thanks in advance

Jay


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Re: [RE-wrenches] lithium in cold weather/heating

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi Michael 

Do you know if Discover is coming out with larger Helios batteries?  30 amp hrs 
is pretty small. 

And thanks everyone for the answers. 


As to the blue planet, I don’t think they need heaters. I was working on a 
system with one and the battery housing was darn warm, much warmer than 
anything else in the inverter room. Surprising actually. 

Jay



> On Jul 21, 2022, at 10:18 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 1st line of defense: Agricultural seed tray heat mats w/ integral T-stat
> 2nd  LOD: Empire wall heater (no electronics) w/ industrial temperature 
> controlled relay (TCR) (similar to a thermostat) set to 38 degrees
> 3rd LOD: Battery side of charge controller circuits have TCR controlled 
> contactors to break circuit if 1 and 2 fail
> 
> Redundancy is key here. We learned the hard way when a system we designed 
> relied on a common battery powered T-stat that controlled a propane wall 
> heater. Brand new Energizer Lithium AA didn't last a winter. Ouch
> 
> All of this will be moot soon. We are about to build a half dozen systems 
> with Discover's Helios in the next few months. Internal heaters like 
> Battleborns but with Discover's superior architecture and components. This is 
> the future.
> 
> This is for NorCal >6K elevation installations. In colder climates I'd insist 
> on conditioned and supervised spaces
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 8:56 PM frenergy via RE-wrenches 
>>  wrote:
>> Jay,
>> 
>>  With the SimpliPhi's we've been installing we require a 
>> shed on slab, walls R-21, roof, R-38 and then the smallest propane wall 
>> heater (they use zero power to operate) we can find and set it at 55
>> degrees.  No need for the insulated box or fretting about toasting $20K+ 
>> in batteries.  It would be nice to find one with a thermostat that goes 
>> down to 45 degrees.
>> 
>> Bill
>> 
>> Feather River Solar Electric
>> Bill Battagin, Owner
>> 4291 Nelson St.
>> Taylorsville, CA 95983
>> 530.284.7849
>> CA Lic 874049
>> 
>> On 7/21/2022 2:30 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote:
>> > HI All,
>> >
>> > As I get more calls for offgrid designs with lithium batteries I”m 
>> > wondering what you all are doing to keep the batteries warm when it gets 
>> > cold.  For some of you 0 F will seem mild, others super cold.
>> >
>> > Doing a battery box and heating that or heating the whole inverter/battery 
>> > shed?
>> >
>> > I’m definitely not looking at batteries like battle born with the built in 
>> > heaters.
>> >
>> > Simpliphi, Discover, some of the newer server rack ones ( UL listed), etc.
>> >
>> >
>> > Thanks in advance
>> >
>> > Jay
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback FXR: Battery voltage exceeds settings

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Outback controllers have a tendency to be a bit slow. 

So they can definitely get higher than the set points but only for a second or 
two which is not going do damage anything. I’ve seen them do this. 

Especially if it’s a larger array, sealed batteries and when the batteries are 
full and a load turns on and then off. 

At the load off the CC is dumping watts, and the sudden loss means a short 
voltage spike. 

Jay




> On Jul 23, 2022, at 9:43 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Most AGM's don't like voltage that high and it swells the battery and 
> destroys its storage capability alot of the time
> Jerry
> 
>> On Fri, Jul 22, 2022, 7:50 PM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches 
>>  wrote:
>> William, 
>> 
>> If the battery cases swelled, they saw over 52 degrees C temps for quite 
>> some time.   
>> 
>> While the swelling is usually only cosmetic, what's happening inside is the 
>> negative plates are starting to burn. This is where you will start to lose 
>> capacity and life cycle...  Extended temps of just 35C will half the overall 
>> battery life. 
>> 
>> One of the issues with the Outback gear is they only temp compensate at 
>> 5mv/Degree/cell. For all the AGM batteries I know of, you need to temp 
>> compensate at 4mv.   In hot temps, this should help, but cold temps could 
>> result in an overcharge.   Did you check the BTS and make sure it was 
>> operating properly? 
>> 
>> Another issue is that BTSs are often placed on the top or lug of the 
>> battery,   The top of the battery is about 5-10 deg C cooler than 1/2 way 
>> down the side of the battery, Which will also cause problems with proper 
>> temperature compensation, especially with warmer/colder extremes.  
>> 
>> Any kind of sulfation will cause an imbalance when you mix old and new 
>> batteries.   I'm not a fan of mixing any age AGM batteries as there is no 
>> way to tell what the SOC of the old bank vs. the new bank is.   They are not 
>> like flooded batteries; you can check SGs and dissipate heat much better 
>> than AGM or GEL batteries.   I discourage doing this if you can.   I 
>> probably wouldn't have mixed the old and new in the same strings. This way, 
>> you keep the higher resistance batteries in a single string,  
>> 
>> Lastly, bunching them together with no spacing between them is very bad. 
>> Batteries should be in a cool, dry environment.  Most battery companies want 
>> to see 1-3 inches in between each battery to allow for effective cooling. 
>> When they are all bunched up together, that is a lot of thermal mass that 
>> doesn't have much chance of cooling.   I have seen two parallel strings of 
>> AGMs take 24-36 hours with no charging or load to drop from 45c to 25C! 
>> 
>> Hope this helps!  Have a good weekend. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
>> t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
>> f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the 
>> addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged 
>> material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the 
>> taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you 
>> receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy 
>> this message and all copies.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 6:48 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches 
>>>  wrote:
>>> Friends:
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> I maintain a system with 16 AGM L-16 batteries.  Eight were installed in 
>>> September of 2021 and 8 were added in March of 2022.  This is 5 months 
>>> apart.  I have understood that when you install a string of batteries you 
>>> have one year in which to add another string before the first string ages 
>>> to the point it is contraindicated.  When I added the second 8 I put 4 new 
>>> batteries and 4 old batteries in each string.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> About a third of the batteries are discovered to bulging on top.  I assume 
>>> this means the batteries are damaged.  I checked the FXR and Outback 
>>> Extreme Charge controller settings and all were set to absorb at 58.8, and 
>>> float at 55.2, as the manufacturer recommends. 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> I downloaded the charge controller log and got 129 days of data.  In that 
>>> log I see 68 days where the batteries exceeded 60 VDC. This is over half 
>>> the days.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> I wonder this:
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 1.   Why did the voltage go up above 58.8 on so many days even though it 
>>> was set at 58.8. (I set the EQ voltage at 58.8 just in case, but EQ was 
>>> never engaged.)
>>> 
>>> 2.   Did the excess voltage damage the batteries?
>>> 
>>> Any input is appreciated.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Sincerely,
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> William Miller
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Miller Solar
>>> 
>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>> 
>>> 805-438-5600
>>> 
>>> www.millersolar.com
>>> 
>>> CA Lic. 773985
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> _

Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum inverter/generator integration problems

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi Chris. 

I’m a bit confused about the breaker on the BMK. That’s the battery monitor?  
No breakers. 

If you mean the inverter, then check that both legs are working. I’ve had a 
similar issue in the past that turned out to be a bad 240v breaker. 1 side 
didn’t work, but because of how the magnum works if you check volts it will 
read right. 
Have to check with clamp on for current
The inverter overloads with 120v input, and yeah takes about 10-15 minutes.  
Might give it a check. 

Jay



> On Jul 25, 2022, at 12:08 PM, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi folks, I’m trying to help a fellow with two Magnum Systems; one of them 
> will accept his Honda EG5000CL gen set, the other will not.
> After running for a bout 10~15 minutes the circuit breaker pops on the BMK.  
> He will be rebooting his BMK this evening in the first attempt at getting his 
> system back up.   He has been powering this system with a Predator 3500w Gen 
> set, along with his solar array.
> The system will not accept the Honda.  Any ideas of clues to check out?
>  
> Sincerely,
>  
> Chris Daum
> Oasis Montana Inc.
> 406-777-4321
> www.oasismontana.com
>  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] off-grid AC coupling feasibility

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

I also worry about getting the system 
to 64 hz. 

That is hard on motors and might be the cause of the Light pulsing you’re 
seeing drake. 

Jay


> On Jul 31, 2022, at 10:08 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Yes, we have a system with AC and DC coupled arrays on an off-grid system. 
> Having DC coupled capacity is important for reasons given in other posts.
> 
> We used AC coupling due to shade issues, so we could use Enphase inverters.
> 
> In your case, if the house really is going to go on grid, I would think AC 
> coupling makes sense. If not, I'd use high voltage DC charge controllers 
> (like the Schneider 600 V units) and keep it DC.
> 
> The main complaint I have with AC coupling off grid is that some lights tent 
> to strobe in certain charging conditions. Another complaint  is the 5 minute 
> delay period after the micro-inverters shut down. The micros are phased, 
> based on battery voltage, so they don't all shut down at once.
> 
> 
> 
> Drake Chamberlin
> 
> Athens Electric LLC
> 
> Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810
> 
> CO Master Electrician’s License 4526
> 
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---
>  
> 
> 
>> On 2022-07-30 12:30, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches wrote:
>> 
>> All,
>> Anyone out there successfully AC-coupled inverters in an off-grid system? 
>> Advantages vs. pitfalls?
>>  
>> In my case I'm thinking of its practicality with a Solaredge inverter 
>> AC-coupled to an OB Radian inverter. OB firmware makes this pretty easy now. 
>> So effectively the Radian is always operating in a grid-backup mode.
>>  
>> I already upgraded the system to the Radian, and soon to add 5kw of 
>> pole-mounted PV(currently only 1.8kw of 22-year old PV on the roof). This 
>> system also just got 16kwh of Blue Ion LFP batteries.
>>  
>> This is a last-minute thought I have instead of investing in additional DC 
>> charge controllers for the new array.
>> Cost-wise there's not much of a difference between several high-quality 
>> charge controllers and a smaller SE inverter w/optimisers. Thanks.
>>  
>> -- 
>> Kirk Herander / kirkh@vermont.solar
>> Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC
>> Celebrating our 31st Anniversary 1991-2022!!
>> www.vermont.solar
>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>> 802.863.1202
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase String Breaker Heating Up

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Seems to me this has come up before. 
With bad breakers as probable cause. 
I don’t know if the heat has caused buss damage
Might go for CH or QO breakers instead BR style. 

Jay 

> On Aug 4, 2022, at 8:08 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Jason
> Is the installation designed for 208 as you have greater limitations then 
> 240, so now replace the buss and all the breakers, after that run currents 
> tests and see what you have. I had a 3 phase that the tin cam off the buss 
> and looked like a plazma cutter due to the exposed aluminum 
> Fun times
> 
>> On Thu, Aug 4, 2022, 11:12 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
>>  wrote:
>> I have a commercial 208 volt job where four of 11 fully populated strings of 
>> IQ7A had breakers that were tripped as reported by the client. They were 
>> able to reset two of them. They also reported that the two they were not 
>> able to reset we're very hot. The other two were warm.  By the time I got to 
>> the site, all four breakers had permanently failed. 
>> 
>> Once I got replacements, I was able to install them and they turned on 
>> without any faults. I gave it about 15 minutes and then put my infrared 
>> camera on it. To my surprise, the breaker immediately above two of the 
>> failed breakers and across from the other two failed breakers was clearly 
>> hot. I'm thinking this might have been the bad breaker all along causing the 
>> heat issue on the bus bar which made adjacent breakers fail. But this hot 
>> breaker did not fail.
>> 
>> Does this seem like a plausible scenario, and if so, any ideas on what might 
>> have caused it? All of the breaker bolts were tight, but a couple were not 
>> torqued to spec. I just find it strange that one breaker that didn't fail 
>> would cause other adjacent breakers to heat up enough to fail.
>> 
>> Flir image attached. This was after I replaced the four failed breakers.
>> 
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Florida Solar Design Group 
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[RE-wrenches] Abandoned equipment

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi All 

A question. 
Panels were shipped to me, and literally dropped off the truck, 6’. 
About 1/2 broken, others with probable unknown future issues. 

Company I bought from sent me another pallet no charge. 

It’s been 3 months and the stack of broken/damaged panels is still in my yard 
and no updates or expected closure to this even after many phone calls. 

My question is, at what point are they considered abandoned? Or there might be 
some other legal name. 
For me to dispose of and or give away the probably damaged but unbroken ones?

Thanks

Jay




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[RE-wrenches] solar panel recycling

[jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi All,

Some asked me a question about recycling of panels and I can’t exactly find out 
the answer.

The companies here in the US that “recycle”.  
If I understand it right, they are:

1. removing the aluminum frames

2. grinding up the panels

3. removing the wires

Then I don’t know what happens, do they go to China for melting down or?

thanks in advance

Jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 phase off-grid UL listed

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi Mac

Sol ark does, Schneider XWpro does,
Outback vfxr does but only 9 which is 32kw

That’s all I can think of

Jay

> On Sep 8, 2022, at 5:42 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hello Wrenches,
> 
> What inverter options are there for 3 phase, UL listed, off-grid inverter 
> systems in the 30kW+ category?  
> It's been quite a while since I dove into this...
> Thanks!
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac Lewis
> 
> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates
> 
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[RE-wrenches] sol ark 12kw question

[jay via RE-wrenches]

HI All

I”m trying to figure out exactly how much PV/CC there is for off grid on the 
sol ark 12kw or 9kw off grid


The manual says 6,500 and 6,500 watts but that is grid connected.  
It looks like its 6,500 max for offgrid?

Is that correct?

thanks in advance 
jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark phase imbalances

[jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi Howie

Here is an interesting youtube video about testing the sol ark vs XW pro.

They use all sorts of loads and the sol ark does not come out well in my view, 
but I’ll let you decide. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ez4cbuy7IQ 




jay



> On Sep 10, 2022, at 12:57 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> Is there a white paper or a thorough explanation of the issue Sol-Ark had 
> with large imbalances between phases. I am looking at a large residential 
> off-grid system using potentially (2)15 kw Sol-Arks. What are the concerns 
> specifically around unbalanced inductive loads. 
> Also, I have not installed multiple Sol-Arks before. Any suggestions or 
> issues it would be good to be aware of?
> Thanks,
> Howie
> Sun Catcher
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rebuild/Replacement for Harris Hydro

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

I’d recommend contacting derik from high power hydro. 

707-923-3507

He might have a replacement brass or SS runners and definitely has brushless 
motors 

Jay


> On Sep 15, 2022, at 5:15 PM, David Palumbo via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Wrenches,
>  
> I have one of my old high head micro-hydro sites that has worked well with a 
> Harris Turbine for many years now needing a rebuilt alternator and a new 
> pelton wheel, or, possibly a new PM turbine.
> I tried contacting  Dennis Ledbetter who gave me a number of years of good 
> service after Don Harris retired. Dennis is now also retired (as am I, except 
> for work in my off-grid neighborhood).
> Dennis’s email bounced over to Jerry Ostermeier at APM Hydro, Grants Pass, OR
> I have a couple of questions for the group.
> If I was to go with purchasing a new APM turbine it looks like a Model 1400PM 
> would be a possibility for the 185’ net head at 25 GPM site. The APM Hydro 
> web site mentions a pelton runner called DELRIN. Does anybody have any 
> experience with this?
> Anyone with experience with APM’s products and servicers I would appreciate 
> your comments with an email to me at palumbo1...@gmail.com
>  
> Thanks,
>  
> David Palumbo
> Formerly operating as “Independent Power”
> Hyde Park, VT
> (802) 888-4917
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rebuild/Replacement for Harris Hydro

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

His website is

https://www.homehydro.com/

Jay

> On Sep 15, 2022, at 5:28 PM, Jay  wrote:
> 
> 
> I’d recommend contacting derik from high power hydro. 
> 
> 707-923-3507
> 
> He might have a replacement brass or SS runners and definitely has brushless 
> motors 
> 
> Jay
> 
> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2022, at 5:15 PM, David Palumbo via RE-wrenches 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>> 
>> Wrenches,
>>  
>> I have one of my old high head micro-hydro sites that has worked well with a 
>> Harris Turbine for many years now needing a rebuilt alternator and a new 
>> pelton wheel, or, possibly a new PM turbine.
>> I tried contacting  Dennis Ledbetter who gave me a number of years of good 
>> service after Don Harris retired. Dennis is now also retired (as am I, 
>> except for work in my off-grid neighborhood).
>> Dennis’s email bounced over to Jerry Ostermeier at APM Hydro, Grants Pass, OR
>> I have a couple of questions for the group.
>> If I was to go with purchasing a new APM turbine it looks like a Model 
>> 1400PM would be a possibility for the 185’ net head at 25 GPM site. The APM 
>> Hydro web site mentions a pelton runner called DELRIN. Does anybody have any 
>> experience with this?
>> Anyone with experience with APM’s products and servicers I would appreciate 
>> your comments with an email to me at palumbo1...@gmail.com
>>  
>> Thanks,
>>  
>> David Palumbo
>> Formerly operating as “Independent Power”
>> Hyde Park, VT
>> (802) 888-4917
>> ___
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[RE-wrenches] Sun selector omni meter manual

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Anyone have a manual for an ancient 
Sun Selector Omni Meter?

I’ve got to go visit a site with one and it’s been about 20 years since I’ve 
worked on one and don’t have a manual, nor could I find on online 

Thanks in advance 

Jay
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[RE-wrenches] sol ark reliability question

[jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi All,

I’ve got a question about how many folks are having issues with sol-ark 
products?

the reason i ask is that i’ve got a friend, a good competent installer ( well 
versed in OB, Schneider, magnum)  who’s had continuing nightmares with them.

he’s got 2 systems each on is a stacked pair of 12kw units, both offgrid.

each system was designed by sol-ark, meaning the design was approved by them 
for the loads/solar etc.

He’s been through 7 MCU swaps. 
He’s been through a field call required because the over the air firmware 
update caused the inverters to go into 50hz and for some reason that isn’t 
fixable via the web.
He had an inverter that didn’t work correctly out of the box.  They charged him 
$2500 deposit for a replacement.

Then they charged him $1500 to fix the inverter he sent back under warranty.  
Thats right $1500 to fix a warranty which they agreed was a warranty issue.
Hes not going to pay but this $1500 has been going on a while.  

The inverter they sent to replace the broken one had a older MCU firmware so 
wouldn’t stack and it took tech support way to long to figure that out then 
they had to send him a new MCU…...

And the list goes on.

But Im asking, is this poor guy just an anomaly or will anyone else chime in 
about issues?,

Because at this point I have no desire to install one given his experiences

Jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] sol ark reliability question

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi all and thanks for the input. 

I guess he’s just been unlucky with the problems ( firmware upgrade switching 
to 50hz) and possibly just some random bad hardware. 

In regards to your thoughts of a install issue, he has spent a lot of time with 
sol ark reviewing everything. Loads, wiring, they have been monitoring all the 
data, photos, video etc with everything coming up correctly installed, wired, 
and loads. 

this system is an upgrade for an older XW ( 6kw units) system which worked 
fine. The customer wanted better monitoring, more kw, expansion capabilities 
and newer tech. 

Weird








> On Sep 29, 2022, at 9:50 PM, pieter offgridenterprises.org via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> We have dozens of Solark based installs and have had excellent results. All 
> of our system have multiple parallel Solark inverters and have operated with 
> out issues. On the rare occasion that we had commissioning questions our 
> experience with Solark technical support has been outstanding, they have by 
> far the best technical support in the industry. Although Solark helped design 
> the system in question I suspect that there must be some finer points that 
> were not shared with Solark, a load side wiring problem or perhaps an 
> installation error that is causing the repeated failures. I suggest that your 
> friend gets a fresh set of eyes on the system and look for that oversite we 
> have all made and just can’t seem to see it on our own.
> Pieter Huebner
> Off Grid Enterprises
>  
> From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
> Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches
> Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2022 10:25 AM
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Cc: Jerry Shafer 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] sol ark reliability question
>  
> Wrenches
> Solark issues, I have them living off grid, 3 phase and grid tied back up, 
> both AC and DC coupled with only one intermittent comms issue, does not seem 
> to have any more issues than OB and less than Schnieder, all are connected to 
> Fortress 18.5's or Blue Planet BMS interface seems hardy, 
> Would be good to know what issues he is having to accurately help
> Jerry
>  
> On Thu, Sep 29, 2022 at 7:01 AM jay via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I’ve got a question about how many folks are having issues with sol-ark 
> products?
> 
> the reason i ask is that i’ve got a friend, a good competent installer ( well 
> versed in OB, Schneider, magnum)  who’s had continuing nightmares with them.
> 
> he’s got 2 systems each on is a stacked pair of 12kw units, both offgrid.
> 
> each system was designed by sol-ark, meaning the design was approved by them 
> for the loads/solar etc.
> 
> He’s been through 7 MCU swaps. 
> He’s been through a field call required because the over the air firmware 
> update caused the inverters to go into 50hz and for some reason that isn’t 
> fixable via the web.
> He had an inverter that didn’t work correctly out of the box.  They charged 
> him $2500 deposit for a replacement.
> 
> Then they charged him $1500 to fix the inverter he sent back under warranty.  
> Thats right $1500 to fix a warranty which they agreed was a warranty issue.
> Hes not going to pay but this $1500 has been going on a while.  
> 
> The inverter they sent to replace the broken one had a older MCU firmware so 
> wouldn’t stack and it took tech support way to long to figure that out then 
> they had to send him a new MCU…...
> 
> And the list goes on.
> 
> But Im asking, is this poor guy just an anomaly or will anyone else chime in 
> about issues?,
> 
> Because at this point I have no desire to install one given his experiences
> 
> Jay
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] heating pads for batteries

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

I’m looking at agricultural seedling mats. 
They are super tough,come in many sizes many come with thermostats. 
Reasonable flexible. 

Jay

> On Sep 30, 2022, at 2:45 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> Reptile heater pads?
> 
> Dana Orzel
> C: 208.721.7003
> E- d...@solarwork.com
> 
>>> On Sep 30, 2022, at 1:35 PM, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>> 
>> Hello all you brilliant people:
>>  
>> Does anyone have something new for lightly heating a battery bank in a cold 
>> climate?  Something reliable and reasonably efficient?  We’ve been selling 
>> LFP batteries for a while, but few to our northern customers who cannot keep 
>> them from freezing.  I can give advise about insulated battery boxes (and 
>> have one myself), but surely there must be something new out there. 
>>  
>> Here we see low temps of -20F below – sometimes -40…..
>>  
>> I recently spoke with a fellow who offers heaters for gutters to prevent ice 
>> creep that can ruin your shingles or roof, but there must be something more 
>> adaptable than that.  Any suggestions?
>>  
>> Chris Daum
>> Oasis Montana Inc.
>> 406-777-4309 or 4321
>> 406-777-4309 fax
>> www.oasismontana.com
>>  
>>  
>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] sol ark reliability question

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi Chris 

The 1.1 MCU issue might have been known but they did a horrible job with my 
buddy.

7 x MCU 1.1 boards 
1 replacement inverter to fix a failed inverter turned out to be a warranty 
unit that wasnt fixed and of course didn’t work. 
And again this system was designed with their approval, and the loads are 
exactly as he told them and web connected 

After months they finally coped to the issue with 1.1 and got him 2 new units 
with 1.2 boards after trying 1.2 boards in the older units which didn’t work 
probably due to other damage. 

They are still trying to get him to pay $1500  for the inverter failure which 
was under warranty, it’s been 2 months and still not resolved. 

Total time of the project and issues 6+ months. 
Number of field trips 15+
Hours per trip 5+
Payment for those trips 0

While it’s been good to hear all the positive reviews here, what my buddy has 
gone through gives me huge concern to give them my money. 

Jay





> On Oct 4, 2022, at 5:05 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Jay,
> 
> We have 50+ Sol Ark’s deployed and have just recently RMA’d our first unit 
> for a failed grid input relay. Only failure so far and tech support was 
> awesome throughout the process. 
> 
> I have been very impressed with the 15K unit. We have dropped some serious 
> inductive motor loads on it with no issue. 
> 
> My understanding is that the MCU glitch with paralleled units was a known 
> issue with the 12K, and has since been resolved. 
> 
> Kindly,
> 
> Chris 
> 
>> On Fri, Sep 30, 2022 at 12:10 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches 
>>  wrote:
>> Ray. Understand but loose connections can be any product and troubleshooting 
>> loose intermittent issues are the hardest to correct
>> J
>> Funtimes
>> 
>>> On Fri, Sep 30, 2022, 9:03 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches 
>>>  wrote:
>>> One thing I can say:  trouble shooting problems over the phone has its 
>>> limitations.  I had a customer issue with a system we hadn't installed that 
>>> was quite vexing.  Turned out to be a loose main DC connection to the 
>>> inverter.  Bizarre behavior as the connection heated up and the resistance 
>>> varied.
>>> 
>>> Ray Walters
>>> 
>>>> On 9/30/2022 6:57 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>>> Hi all and thanks for the input. 
>>>> 
>>>> I guess he’s just been unlucky with the problems ( firmware upgrade 
>>>> switching to 50hz) and possibly just some random bad hardware. 
>>>> 
>>>> In regards to your thoughts of a install issue, he has spent a lot of time 
>>>> with sol ark reviewing everything. Loads, wiring, they have been 
>>>> monitoring all the data, photos, video etc with everything coming up 
>>>> correctly installed, wired, and loads. 
>>>> 
>>>> this system is an upgrade for an older XW ( 6kw units) system which worked 
>>>> fine. The customer wanted better monitoring, more kw, expansion 
>>>> capabilities and newer tech. 
>>>> 
>>>> Weird
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sep 29, 2022, at 9:50 PM, pieter offgridenterprises.org via 
>>>>> RE-wrenches  wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> We have dozens of Solark based installs and have had excellent results. 
>>>>> All of our system have multiple parallel Solark inverters and have 
>>>>> operated with out issues. On the rare occasion that we had commissioning 
>>>>> questions our experience with Solark technical support has been 
>>>>> outstanding, they have by far the best technical support in the industry. 
>>>>> Although Solark helped design the system in question I suspect that there 
>>>>> must be some finer points that were not shared with Solark, a load side 
>>>>> wiring problem or perhaps an installation error that is causing the 
>>>>> repeated failures. I suggest that your friend gets a fresh set of eyes on 
>>>>> the system and look for that oversite we have all made and just can’t 
>>>>> seem to see it on our own.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Pieter Huebner
>>>>> 
>>>>> Off Grid Enterprises
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf 
>>>>> Of Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2022 10:25 AM
>>>>> To: RE-wrenche

Re: [RE-wrenches] Onboard PV Charging Kit for Electric Vehicle

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi Cory

What a beautiful truck. Would like to see the video of the solar extending 

My question, is it possible to go direct to the EV battery? 
he/she just wants to charge the ev right directly off the panels?

And what voltage is the main battery. 

Jay

> On Oct 5, 2022, at 1:01 AM, Corey Shalanski via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Wrenches,
> 
> One of my friends converted his 1955 Ford F100 pickup truck into an electric 
> vehicle. He also had a nifty (mechanized) racking assembly installed in the 
> bed that can deploy a fold-out 3-module PV array at the push of a button. If 
> you aren't yet salivating, please see the attached image.
> 
> He would like to add an 'onboard off-grid' battery + inverter kit that would 
> essentially allow the truck to *plug into itself* (or, more correctly, into 
> the sun). My first question is if anyone has ever attempted anything like 
> this? or knows of a similar project?
> 
> I'm taking suggestions for your favorite off-grid kit components 
> (make/model)—system specs as follows:
> Inverter: preferably around 3–4 kW output rating, can be either 120 or 
> 120/240 Vac output since the EV charger is rated for both
> Batteries: we're thinking LFP for the chemistry, around 3–4 kWh @ 80% DOD, 
> bank voltage would depend on inverter model (or the other way around, if you 
> prefer)
> Charge Controller: wiring the modules in series would give 900 W / 118 Voc / 
> 10 A Isc
> Battery SOC Meter: ideally can be mounted on dashboard
> Thanks in advance for any electrifying ideas the group can offer!
> 
> --
> Corey Shalanski
> Jah Light Solar
> Portland, Jamaica
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Butt End Connector Warning

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi drake

Can you give us a part number or picture?

Thx
Jay

> On Oct 6, 2022, at 7:33 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> Our electrical supplier seamlessly transitioned from crimp on butt end 
> connectors, that were listed for CU and AL, to unmarked ones that were 
> approved for copper only.
> 
> I became concerned since there was no marking. Calling two electrical 
> suppliers, the guys at the counter had to look up the device to learn that 
> they were listed for copper only. Talking to one of the counter guys, he 
> agreed that electricians were probably using these for aluminum.
> 
> Since the barrels will be insulated, it is not likely that inspectors will 
> see them. The connectors are made of coated copper. I wonder how much of a 
> problem this will be.
> 
> Drake
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC coupled grid tie only inverter

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi Drake 

I remembered that they make this product or they did. 

https://www.magnum-dimensions.com/sites/default/files/MagDocs/64-00062%20Rev%20A%20%28ACLD-40%29_web.pdf

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Simpliphi with SW inverters

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

I think we might have a naming issue 

I’m thinking William is talking about the Trace SW
And I think Dave is talking about the Schneider SW

Very different critters

To Williams question you should be able to program it
to meet their specifications. 

Jay

> On Oct 13, 2022, at 9:49 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>  
> Webinar tomorrow on SW inverters.  
>  
> Subscribe to our news
> View this email in your browser
> 
>  
> At Schneider Electric, we support you in your business. Read below our 
> upcoming in-person and online events, as well as a new product we just 
> launched.
> 
> Webinar: SW Inverter Advanced Features
> 
> Our SW hybrid inverters are packed with features, which provide reliable 
> backup and PV energy management for relatively small residences. Learn how 
> the SW inverter might be a great fit for your next project, whether grid-tied 
> or off-grid. For NABCEP-certified installers, this webinar will be eligible 
> for NABCEP continuing education credits.
> 
> Date: Thursday, October 13, 2022
> Time: 11 a.m. PDT
> Presenter: Eric Bentsen
> 
> 
>  
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
> text 209 813 0060
> 
> 
>>  
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[RE-wrenches] utility scale BESS

[jay via RE-wrenches]

HI All,

I”m wondering if anyone has any direct information or can steer me towards 
actual information on 40’

BESS container systems.
specifically the HVAC systems, number, size and sound from there.

Thanks in advance.

Jay




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage lithiums

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi KrisCan you share what equipment is being used, watts of solar etc. ThxJayOn Nov 19, 2022, at 5:32 AM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches  wrote:Greetings all,I have seen an issue on two different systems that I am hoping someone can shed some light on for me.  One was a 48 volt pack of 12 volt Battle Bornes and the other was a 24 volt pack of SOKs.  What happens is when reaching the end of the bulk charging stage, the battery voltage spikes and sends the inverter into an overvoltage error.  Can anyone explain what is happening and a solution?Thanks,KrisShine On!Kris SchmidLegacy Solar, LLC137 West 1st AvenueLuck, WI 54853www.legacysolar.com715-653-4295NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalLicensed Wisconsin Master ElectricianBSEE
___List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org___
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[RE-wrenches] solar lease questions

[jay via RE-wrenches]

HI All,

I”ve got a friend in hawaii, big island near Kona  that is looking at a sun run 
lease and she’s asking me questions.

I’m not that familiar with the electric rates nor the games that Sun Run is 
doing. 

They are pushing a 20 yr lease with the following system:
38 x 400 watt panels
2 x SE 3.8kw
2 x power wall
it will offset 120% of her load
loan is $398 month/ 20 yrs which is $95,000

My first really big question is thats 15.2kw on 7.6kw of inverter?  That 
doesn’t sound right, 2 x DC/AC ratio?
Does it make sense to have the batteries?

And if you paid for the system outright, what would that be in Hawaii?


Any and all help and advice is welcome,
or if there any installers near there, that would also be helpful.


thx
jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Old Trace SW inverter connected to the grid.

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

The older versions of the SW didnt have the GTI plug or need it. What I find curious is what was said about the lineman that they measured current. If the lines were off, no way that inverter could power it up or even the transformer. I’d recommend checking current just to confirm what’s going on. JayOn Dec 19, 2022, at 9:18 AM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches  wrote:Great Point, Todd... Todd is correct. Wire the Utility to the AC2 Input (Generator), and it won't be able to sell at all. Steve Higgins. On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 8:14 AM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches  wrote:If the grid is wired to AC2, then the inverter can charge off off that source but not sell to it.Todd
 
 

On Monday, December 19, 2022 7:50am, "Tump via RE-wrenches"  said:
I have neve heard that but I would connect the utility to the AC1 input as the window is quite narrow then the grid. The GTI was a piss poor way for trace to regulate “sell” current would ramp up & back down all day long. NOT necessary. BUT then again that old duffer; SH  probably has more brain cells left then I do.  


On Dec 19, 2022, at 10:27 AM, Chad Waits via RE-wrenches  wrote:







I thought the SW needed a Grid Tie Interface (GTI) to keep current from leaking out to the grid even if you didn;t want to sell to them...
Chad WaitsPresident - Net Zero Solar
945 W. Silverlake, Tucson, AZ 85713
Cell: (520) 270-4873









On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 8:21 AM David Palumbo via RE-wrenches  wrote:




Wrenches,
 
I have been retired from doing solar installs for 10 years now and I am reaching out for help as to recommending a solution to an old do-it-yourself customers question.
His solar system that was formerly off-grid and is now using grid power instead of a back up generator. 
He had/has no intention of doing a net-metered system. Just trying to reduce dependance on a fossil fuel genset during our mostly sunless Vermont winters. 
 
He says that he brought in power a few years ago to run their expanding maple sugaring operation located next to their house. At that time they ran a 115Vac circuit (grid power) over to their house and connected grid power into AC Hot In terminal #! in their Trace SW 2512. This is correct as I see terminal #2 is labeled for generator power. 
He has the Trace programmed for float mode  not sell mode.
 
Their local utility was working on the line nearby on the main road and noticed a small amount of current flowing into the grid and figured out where it was coming from. The utility did not immediately shut him down. Just told him to correct the problem. He is asking me for advice.
 
My first inclination is to separate the grid power completely from the inverter power and to feed both power sources into a double pole double throw transfer switch. What other options should be considered. 
 
Thanks in advance and happy holidays,
 
Dave Palumbo
Formerly > Independent Power & Light
Hyde Park, VT
802-371-8678 voice or text
 
 


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___List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org









Tump3...@gmail.com       www.SWNL.net



            Solarwinds Northernlights   
       Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California                         207-832-7574   Cl. 610-517-8401  
                              Blair "TUMP" May
                 MAINE'S CHARTER       NABCEP    "Certified PV Installer"        MAINE'S CHARTER   Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"










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Re: [RE-wrenches] Utility transformer limitations

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

If the utility is PG&E in my experience here is what happens They say yes or no to the interconnection. If no you have the option to request an engineering study to determine how much solar. That study is at your expense, paid in advance and the exact cost isn’t known until the study is done. Could be $500 to $15,000 or more. I’ll be curious to know what happens JayOn Dec 26, 2022, at 9:07 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches  wrote:

William, 
I ran into this once on an old transformer, which fortunately they changed at no cost. It was a 10 kW transformer on a 200 A (48 kW) service. They had some dimming of lights on heavy loads, and the transformer was changed out on that basis, at no charge. 
My questions for the utility would be?

Are there any other PV systems feeding the transformer?

If so, what is their maximum production.


What size is the transformer?
What percentage of transformer capacity is allowed to be back-fed.

If the math comes out in your favor, you will have a good case to escalate to the next level. 

Good Luck,
Drake

Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810
CO Master Electrician’s License 4526
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
---
On 2022-12-25 13:58, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote:





Wrenched:
 
Merry Christmas to those of you that observe such traditions, or substitute the winter festivity of your choice.
 
I helped a previous employee install an Enphase IQ8 system on his home.  He applied for the utility approval concurrently with his building permit  The day he got his final inspection the utility contacted him and claimed "The aggregate generation exceeds the identified transformer rating" and refused him a Permission to Operate letter.
 
Adding up the service ratings of the homes on his secondary we get about 336 kW of potential consumption.  Adding the grid-tied systems on his secondary we get about 16.5 kW.  How is it that the back-feed exceeds the transformer rating?
 
I would appreciate any insight on how to consider this situation and how to fight it.
 
Sincerely,
 
William Miller
 
Miller Solar
17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
CA Lic. 773985
 
 




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Utility transformer limitations

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Yes often the study says, yes it’s ok to do the original design and you still have to pay. Remember it’s pay in advance of getting the report. If no then usually they give a cost estimate to upgrade what ever needs to be replaced or a downgraded solar  design that will work with existing equipment. JayOn Dec 26, 2022, at 10:12 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches  wrote:
  

  
  
What happens if the study shows yes, that their no
was wrong. Or does that never happen?😕
On 12/26/2022 12:48 PM, Jay via
  RE-wrenches wrote:


  
  If the utility is PG&E in my experience here is
what happens 
  
  
  They say yes or no to the interconnection. 
  If no you have the option to request an engineering
study to determine how much solar. That study is at your
expense, paid in advance and the exact cost isn’t known until
the study is done. Could be $500 to $15,000 or more. 
  
  
  I’ll be curious to know what happens 
  
  
  Jay
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
On Dec 26, 2022, at 9:07 AM, Drake
  Chamberlin via RE-wrenches
   wrote:
  

  
  

  
  
  
  William, 
  I ran into this once on an
  old transformer, which fortunately they changed at no
  cost. It was a 10 kW transformer on a 200 A (48 kW)
  service. They had some dimming of lights on heavy loads,
  and the transformer was changed out on that basis, at no
  charge. 
  My questions for the utility
  would be?
  
Are there any other PV
systems feeding the transformer?
  
If so, what is their
maximum production.
  

What size is the
transformer?
What percentage of
transformer capacity is allowed to be back-fed.
  
  If the math comes out in
  your favor, you will have a good case to escalate to the
  next level. 
  
  
  Good Luck,
  Drake
  
  
  Drake Chamberlin
  Athens Electric LLC
  Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810
  CO Master Electrician’s License 4526
  NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
  ---
  On 2022-12-25 13:58, William Miller via
RE-wrenches wrote:
  

  

  Wrenched:
   
  Merry
  Christmas to those of you that observe such
  traditions, or substitute the winter festivity of
  your choice.
   
  I helped a
  previous employee install an Enphase IQ8 system on
  his home.  He applied for the utility approval
  concurrently with his building permit  The day he
  got his final inspection the utility contacted him
  and claimed "The aggregate generation exceeds the
  identified transformer rating" and refused him a
  Permission to Operate letter.
   
  Adding up
  the service ratings of the homes on his secondary
  we get about 336 kW of potential consumption. 
  Adding the grid-tied systems on his secondary we
  get about 16.5 kW.  How is it that the back-feed
  exceeds the transformer rating?
   
  I would
  appreciate any insight on how to consider this
  situation and how to fight it.
   
  Sincerely,
   
  William
  Miller
   
  Miller Solar
  17395 Oak
  Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
  805-438-5600
  www.millersolar.com
  CA Lic. 773985
   
   

  


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[RE-wrenches] blue planet battery voltage vs SOC

[jay via RE-wrenches]

HI All,

I’m trying to trouble shoot a remote system and wondering if anyone has a rough 
volts vs SOC for the the blue planet battery



thx
jay




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[RE-wrenches] Outback vfx 3648 question

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Has anyone had a vfx sort of not pay attention to it charging current settings,

I have a customer who’s older vfx will do the following 

Settings are 5 amps ac, 5 amp ac  charge 

It’ll run at about 10 amps dc charging
Then randomly go up to 30 amps dc then back down. Maybe 15 seconds
Later go up to 25 amps and back down. Kinda all over the place 

Then will stay at the lower amps for some period of time. 

I’m thinking it’s a hardware problem?

And given the age a new board set is probably in order. 

Thoughts?

Thx
Jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback vfx 3648 question

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi JerryThere is no battery temp sensor. Lithium battery. ThxJayOn Jan 3, 2023, at 9:11 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches  wrote:Wrenches, Jay You may want to remove the battery temp sensor and see what it does, an open/short in the sensor will send it all over to compensate for the range issue, the issue may also be in the temp compensation board inside the inverter.JerryOn Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 6:16 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:Has anyone had a vfx sort of not pay attention to it charging current settings,

I have a customer who’s older vfx will do the following 

Settings are 5 amps ac, 5 amp ac  charge 

It’ll run at about 10 amps dc charging
Then randomly go up to 30 amps dc then back down. Maybe 15 seconds
Later go up to 25 amps and back down. Kinda all over the place 

Then will stay at the lower amps for some period of time. 

I’m thinking it’s a hardware problem?

And given the age a new board set is probably in order. 

Thoughts?

Thx
Jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback vfx 3648 question

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi john

Good to hear from you. 

Your system charges at above Outback programmed amp setpoints? 
And in a sort of cyclical way?  Sometimes it’s normal for an hour then will go 
to 2x charge rate then back down then maybe 1.5. 

I talked to a senior Outback tech and they haven’t heard of this issue. 

But if you say is true, how do you adjust the settings so it won’t trip the 
generator breaker?

This one is already at 5aac on ac input and 5 aac on charge and it will still, 
not often trip the generator breaker. 

Thx
Jay



> On Jan 3, 2023, at 8:13 PM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> Jay,
> I have seen this a few times but usually with a generator that is not
> designed for hard wired system.  I have a Ryobi
> work generator that does this on both of my outback systems.  It says
> in the instructions that it is not to be used for stationary
> applications (ie normally grounded systems).
> 
> John
> 
>> On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 9:16 AM Jay via RE-wrenches
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Has anyone had a vfx sort of not pay attention to it charging current 
>> settings,
>> 
>> I have a customer who’s older vfx will do the following
>> 
>> Settings are 5 amps ac, 5 amp ac  charge
>> 
>> It’ll run at about 10 amps dc charging
>> Then randomly go up to 30 amps dc then back down. Maybe 15 seconds
>> Later go up to 25 amps and back down. Kinda all over the place
>> 
>> Then will stay at the lower amps for some period of time.
>> 
>> I’m thinking it’s a hardware problem?
>> 
>> And given the age a new board set is probably in order.
>> 
>> Thoughts?
>> 
>> Thx
>> Jay
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[RE-wrenches] Problem Outback update

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi all 

It turns out it was the voltage regulator in the generator. It was replaced and 
the inverter acts normally. 

Have a nice weekend

Jay

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter options

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi Mac

The radian is low voltage transformer
Based. Has hella surge capacity 

I would consider what web based monitoring system he wants and go with that 
platform. 

Regardless of system I’d install soft start/vfd on the larger units. Just 
easier on everything.

The solark 12 doesn’t seem to be good for larger loads and doesn’t do out of 
balance well, and limited to 6kw per phase. The new 15 might be better, not 
sure. Numerous YouTube videos showing side by side vs XW and radian. Both run 
stuff over their rating which the SolA won’t run even though its under its 
rating. 

Good luck

Jay








> On Jan 13, 2023, at 11:34 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hello Wrenches,
> 
> I have a new client that has ran a pretty decent wood shop for about 10 years 
> on a Magnum 4448.  He's got some large loads, planers, saws, compressors 
> vacuums etc.  They are really nice, heavy duty pieces of equipment.  
> Amazingly, the Magnum has been able to start these loads for the most part 
> for 10 years, but he has reported that it has gotten worse lately (could be a 
> load issue), brown outs, dimming etc
> 
> He wants to upgrade the system, get remote monitoring etc.  I tried a test 
> with a Sol-Ark 12, and it won't start these large motor loads.  I was a 
> little surprised by that but I know they aren't as good as the low freq 
> transformer based inverters at these surges.
> 
> I confirmed that its not just an overload from imbalance because the 240V 
> loads will also overload it.  I got an inrush measurement of 48.5A Ac @240 
> (but it didn't start the load before Sol-Ark would shut off)  
> 
> What are my options?
> Schneider XW Pro 6848
> Outback Radian 8048 (Is this a low freq device?)
> Sunny Islands are beasts but weird to work with and not user friendly
> 
> Any others I should consider?  He does have some significant 120 only loads 
> so I don't think the Outback vfxr are a good choice.
> 
> Is it as simple as saying if the Magnum can start this load, the Radian 
> should?
> 
> I appreciate your input!
> 
> --
> Mac Lewis
> 
> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates
> 
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[RE-wrenches] outback FM-100

[jay via RE-wrenches]

HI All,

Does anyone have any updated info about when the FM-100 and Mate3S will be 
available?

thx
jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Good point Glenn. My question is if this system is in its own building. If so it is probably easier to convince the AHJ about not needing a remote battery disco. JayOn Jan 27, 2023, at 12:46 PM, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches  wrote:








Does the AHJ really want the batteries disconnected from conductors, or does he really just want the inverters to stop operating and producing AC within the house?Obviously there is a big difference here and it may be changing as the code evolves.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.-- Original message--From: William Miller via RE-wrenchesDate: Fri, Jan 27, 2023 2:26 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: William
 Miller;Subject:[RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnectsFriends: We have a large-ish residential off-grid system install coming up.  The AHJ has said they will require a remote battery disconnect.  I suspect there will be fire sprinkler controls and a pressure pump that would become inoperable if this system were engaged.  In this case we will apply for a waiver. The last time this was discussed here as far as I can find was October of 2020.  At that time no one suggested any specific battery disconnect equipment.   To further clarify my needs:  There will be 4 or 5 Radian 8048 inverters (5 or 6 4/0 battery circuits, ~350A each) and two 175 amp PV recombiner outputs.  That is 6 poles of high amperage DC disconnects.     The battery array will be either a
 UnigyII VRLA or a lithium of a brand yet to be determined.  In the case of lithium we will look for a system that can remotely enable a BMS shutdown.  In the case of a VRLA lead-acid, we will not have that luxury. I have done some considerable research and have not found viable, high amperage, remotely activated shutdown equipment. I am wondering what hardware others may be using to achieve remote battery disconnecting in these types of cases.. William Miller Solar17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422805-438-5600www.millersolar.comCA Lic. 773985  


___List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[jay via RE-wrenches]

HI William B,

That is a good point.  And even beyond the potential CC damage, since your now 
potentially powering the inverter it could actually stay alive ( I’ve seen this 
happen ) or it can cause a voltage spike from the CC which can damage the  
inverter which I”ve also seen.


I don’t know what that section of the code is trying to do, but its doing it 
extremely  poorly.

jay




> On Jan 28, 2023, at 3:32 PM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> All
> 
> One thing that no one is talking about is what happens to the MPPT charge 
> controllers when the Battery Disconnect trips when the charge controllers are 
> under full load. 
> Many will blow up. Try turning off the battery breaker on a SolaArk  when the 
> charge controllers are maxed, and see if you get lucky.
> 
> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 3:27 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches 
>  > wrote:
> Jeremy:
> 
>  
> Thanks for posting the code references for those that had never looked them 
> up.
> 
>  
> Chris:
> 
>  
> What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which or 
> both panel types”?
> 
>  
> All:
> 
>  
> Code references are handy when receiving edicts from building officials, but 
> not required, IMHO, for two reasons:  The contractor should already be versed 
> in the codes and, building departments can mandate their own requirements 
> above and beyond the code.
> 
>  
> It may seem redundant to require an AC disconnect for premise wiring as well 
> as a DC battery disconnect.  In most cases if you disconnect the inverter 
> from the batteries the AC power goes off.  However if the generator is 
> running at the time, some battery inverters can operate when disconnected 
> from batteries.  So to completely de-energize all components of an off-grid 
> home you need to disconnect the generator and the battery leads.
> 
>  
> In this case the home is required to have fire sprinklers.  There is pressure 
> pump to provide flow to these fire sprinklers-- said pump being powered by 
> the inverter/battery system.  I am going to apply for a waiver to remove the 
> DC disconnect requirement on the grounds that the pressure pump is essential 
> fire suppression equipment.  Instead I will propose to supply an AC 
> disconnect (meeting all requirements for accessibility and marking) that will 
> disconnect all premise wiring except the pressure pump. 
> 
>  
> By the way, I will of course be trying to apply the logic that the voltage 
> specification is for nominal battery voltage and this project having a 
> nominal 48 volt bank does not require the battery disconnect.
> 
>  
> I will let the group know what response I receive.  Regardless of how this 
> works in this jurisdiction, I think these are both valid arguments worth 
> trying in any jurisdiction requiring the battery disconnect.  Some officials 
> are amenable to dialog and negotiation and some are less so.
> 
>  
>  
> William Miller
> 
>  
> Miller Solar
> 
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
> 
> 805-438-5600
> 
> www.millersolar.com 
> CA Lic. 773985
> 
>  
>  
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> ] On Behalf Of Jeremy 
> Rodriguez via RE-wrenches
> Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2023 10:12 AM
> To: cwar...@entech-engineering.com ; 
> RE-wrenches
> Cc: Jeremy Rodriguez
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 2020 Code Language:
> 
> 480.7 DC Disconnect Methods.
> 
> (A) Disconnecting Means. A disconnecting means shall be provided for all 
> ungrounded conductors derived from a stationary battery system with a voltage 
> over 60 volts dc. A disconnecting means shall be readily accessible and 
> located within sight of the battery system.
> 
> N (B) Emergency Disconnect. For one-family and two-family dwellings, a 
> disconnecting means or its remote control for a stationary battery system 
> shall be located at a readily accessible location outside the building for 
> emergency use. The disconnect shall be labeled “EMERGENCY DISCONNECT”.
> 
> N (C) Disconnection of Series Battery Circuits. Battery circuits exceeding 
> 240 volts dc nominal between conductors or to ground and subject to field 
> servicing shall have provisions to disconnect the series-connected strings 
> into segments not exceeding 240 volts dc nominal for maintenance by qualified 
> persons. Non-load-break bolted or plug-in disconnects shall be permitted.
> 
>  
> Jeremy Rodriguez 
> 
> Solar Installation / Design
> 
> All Solar, Inc.
> 
> 1453 M St. 
> 
> Penrose Colorado 81240
> 
>  
> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Jan 28, 2023, at 7:28 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches 
>  > wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems confusing that the AHJ is requiring a disconnect for AC wiring, not 
> sp

Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[jay via RE-wrenches]

As 480.7(B) says single and double homes, that going with the mike holt literal 
interpretation to me says that even if you have a remote power shed it would 
still require the remote disconnect. As that section doesn’t say that the power 
system is in the house or not. 

(A) doesn’t apply as the batteries are sub 60v
(C) doesn’t apply because its a 48v battery


However, as we’ve seen in the past with NEC requirements that there was no UL 
part for:  GFCI for charge controllers, or RS as just 2 examples, that gives an 
out because there is no part to use.  
I’d say its a perfect new part for midnite to make.

William’s point about making one, sure can do that but then the AHJ will ask 
for the UL listing.  


I still have the question as to what is the design of the battery conductor 
disconnect? What is it trying to protect?  Sure its the battery conductors, but 
why?
If the goal is to make sure its safe for the fire personal to cut through 
walls, ok then they could be cutting into the battery just as easily as the 
conductors. 
If its to shut off power to the house, then it fails on that one.  Power goes 
out and the back up generator starts for just one example.  
Which puts us back to the main AC disconnect which is going to shut off all the 
AC power in the house. 
Rapid shut down already has requirements for house mounted systems which takes 
care of the +60v DC conductors although is not required for separate power 
sheds. 

Thanks

jay








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Re: [RE-wrenches] cable trays and battery cable

[jay via RE-wrenches]

Have you looked at 

https://www.snaketray.com/product-catalog/solar-snake-tray/ 


jay

> On Feb 5, 2023, at 1:48 PM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> All,
> I'm just starting a 500kwh LFP battery system that requires a max. distance 
> of 40' from each battery cabinet to the DC combiner.
> 
> I am considering using a cable tray instead of an enclosed wireway for this. 
> The battery cable used is ALL-Flex CT multi-rated MTW / THHW, and will be 
> greater than or equal to 1/0, per NEC 392.
> I haven't read up  a lot yet on it but I assume cable tray allows single 
> conductor ampacity to be sized as in free air per 310.17, with perhaps some 
> caveats.
> 
> Have any of you used cable tray in a similar fashion? Pointers? Thanks.
> 
> -- 
> Kirk Herander /  <>kirkh@vermont.solar 
> Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC
> Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
> 802.863.1202
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[RE-wrenches] absolyte GP battery question/ sideways mounting.

[jay via RE-wrenches]

HI All,

I was just contacted by someone who has a 6 yr old absolyte GP 100G33 battery 
that has lost a lot of capacity.  

The manual only lists a horizontal install, but this was installed on its side 
which I”m guessing was due to space issues.

I am thinking that isn’t good for it, but hopefully someone actually knows if 
this is bad for it or not.

I have only seen pictures but am just trying to inform myself before I head 
out.  Its also possible that the settings are incorrect which could be the 
cause as well.

Thanks in advance

jay


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Rise

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi DaveIt might be that the utility transformer is where the extra voltage rise is coming from?JayOn Feb 23, 2023, at 10:03 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches  wrote:Hi All,I've got a customer who is having issues with high voltage at their house. This first became an issue after installing 23.1kw of AC solar output. They have some GREE heat pumps which have been having some failures. The heat pump people are saying that the problem is that the voltage is above 252V. The grid voltage was measured at 246V with the solar off, and 260V with the solar cranking. The inverters are within 10' of the MSP where there is a line side connection. Then there is 4/0 AL cable which has to go roughly 175' before it reaches the transformer. At 246V and 92A, there should only be about a 3.6V rise, or maybe 4V including the wire from the inverters to the combiner to the MSP. Yet somehow there is about 14V of rise. The service entrance cable is buried. It is in conduit where it goes into and out of the ground, but I have no idea whether there is conduit for most of the run underground. Maybe there is a nick in the cable underground which has caused corrosion? Does anyone have any ideas of how to find the cause of the increased resistance? I should go back out there with an IR camera to check the connections that I can at least get to in the house. I have suggested that they install a buck/boost transformer on the heat pump circuits to bring down the voltage a little bit. But they are also concerned about the high voltage causing issues with other electrical appliances in the house. Does anyone have any anecdata to show whether there are other hidden issues if the house is at 260V during times of high solar production?Thanks!-Dave-- Dave Tedeyan, P.E.Owner | Sungineer Solarp: he | him | hisa: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850w: www.sungineersolar.comc: (607) 288-2898
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Trimetric on LiFe Blue

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi Drake

I’ve had success with amps turned off. 

Jay

> On Mar 7, 2023, at 9:20 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hello Lithium Battery Wrenches,
> 
> A 48 V bank of 8, 12 V LiFe Blue batteries, 2 series sets of four in 
> parallel, for a 400 AH bank, is being monitored by a Trimetric 2020.
> 
> What should the "charged setpoint amps" be set to?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Drake
> 
> Drake Chamberlin
> Athens Electric LLC
> Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810
> CO Master Electrician’s License 4526
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> 
> 
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[RE-wrenches] Cell phone based relay control

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi all

Any recommendations for a cell phone controlled relay?

Would be off grid. There is 12v already there. 
I’m trying to remote control a grundfos sqflex  pump, only a dry dpst contact 
is required. 

Would be great to have access to the control via an app or web so that one 
could see if it’s on or off or maybe even set timers etc. 

Thanks 

Jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Cell phone based relay control

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi allI guess I didn’t use the right terminology for my question. I’m looking for a cell phone controlled relay at the remote site that can be controlled via the computer at my desk or an app. There is no local network or internet at the remote site, just cell service. The one Larry suggested looks good and I’ll check it out more. ThxJayOn Mar 13, 2023, at 2:35 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches  wrote:WebRelay. I use one to turn off my WEEDS (Wind Enabled Ember Dousing System) sprinkler system via a 12V solenoidOn Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 1:22 PM Starlight via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:https://www.amazon.com/Solenoid-Control-Wireless-Contact-T-Mobile/dp/B07Q7PKW5Z?th=1Larry CrutcherStarlight Solar Power Systems

On Mar 13, 2023, at 12:47 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:Hi allAny recommendations for a cell phone controlled relay?Would be off grid. There is 12v already there. I’m trying to remote control a grundfos sqflex  pump, only a dry dpst contact is required. Would be great to have access to the control via an app or web so that one could see if it’s on or off or maybe even set timers etc. Thanks Jay___List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org___
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-- 








Michael MorningstarMorningstar ElectricPO Box 1494Mount Shasta, CA 96067530-921-0560mjmornings...@gmail.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire Sprinklers (was Re: Cell phone based relay control)

[jay via RE-wrenches]

HI Ray,

I’d researched this when I lived in an area that was fire prone.  

I would recommend reading this info about the product and how it works and what 
it doesn’t work for. 
https://www.7thgenerationdesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/fire-WEEDS.pdf 


jay




> On Mar 14, 2023, at 12:32 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> I decided to make this a 2nd thread, so as not to high jack the original 
> theme.  
> 
> I have a question: it sounds like you are not spraying the roof, because its 
> metal?  Isn't the plywood and rafters still vulnerable underneath the metal, 
> or no? I'm concerned with large hot embers.
> 
> Can you post a couple pics of your sprayer install?  
> 
> 2nd question:  what are the field results of these systems in actual fires?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ray
> 
> On 3/14/2023 10:03 AM, Todd Cory via RE-wrenches wrote:
>> I can help with this as Michael built something similar to what I designed 
>> and installed in 2001: 
>> 
>> I plumbed small irrigation sprayers every ~15' around the perimeter of my 
>> buildings under the eaves. This wets down the perimeter of the structures, 
>> particularly the combustion zone where the building meets the ground. Roof 
>> mounted sprayers leave a vulnerable dry gap between the drip edge and the 
>> building. Under eave sprayers wet this area and the siding.
>> 
>> I have 40 of these sprayers which maxes out my well pump at 35 PSI/~15 
>> gallons a minute creating a rainstorm of water around the 8 buildings they 
>> are plumbed on. My GVFX-3648 is easily capable of operating the well pump 
>> during a grid outage.
>> 
>> I also have window shutters and metal roofs.
>> 
>> I use this to activate the solenoid valve from my phone if I am gone:
>> 
>> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06X6NBDFW 
>> 
>> 
>> It is controlled by this phone application:
>> https://ewelink.cc/ 
>>  
>> It is perplexing why Cal Fire and others do not test and recommend these 
>> kinds of systems. The best answer I have been able to come up with is they 
>> fear people prepared like this would have a tendency to "stay and defend" 
>> their homes rather than evacuating.
>> 
>> Todd
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Monday, March 13, 2023 6:37pm, "Ray Walters via RE-wrenches" 
>>  
>>  said:
>> 
>> Michael;
>> Can you share more about your sprinkler system and the power supply for it?  
>> Over the years, at least two of my customers have lost their homes (and PV 
>> arrays) in wild fires. 
>> Ray Walters
>> Remote Solar
>> On 3/13/2023 2:34 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:
>> WebRelay. I use one to turn off my WEEDS (Wind Enabled Ember Dousing 
>>   System) sprinkler system via a 12V solenoid
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.
>> 
>> 
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[RE-wrenches] sol ark contact

[jay via RE-wrenches]

HI All,

Does anyone have a very high up contact at sol ark?

A few months ago I was writing about a buddy who had a stacked 12k.
Hes a competent installer.

It was designed by sol ark,
All loads were included correctly.
The system was monitored by sol ark

Numerous board failures, incorrect firmware replacement parts, inverters with 
different firmwares causing issues etc, a giant long list of screwups. 
No issues from incorrect installation such as poor or incorrect wiring, or not 
torqued correctly or programmed correctly. 

In the end they sent him 2 new 12k units after admitting that the firmwares had 
been incorrect and that had caused other damage which caused other damage. 
This did take care of the issue. 

However they are still billing him $1600 for fixing his warranty inverter which 
they replaced with new because see above. 
Which is beyond bonkers. 

Hes getting nowhere with this, and I asking if anyone knows who to talk to who 
can fix this.
The tech dept seems very clear that its not his fault, but billing and above 
are not on the same page.

Thanks

jay




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Battery Charging

[jay via RE-wrenches]

HI Brad,

I was just about to hit send on those exact wattages, yes completely agree.

As a sort of joke,  the self discharge of the batteries is probably more than 
what she could make in a day.

Jay



> On Mar 16, 2023, at 4:29 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> I tried this back in the 1970's with an exercise bike and a high efficiency 
> generator (still have this if anyone wants it). If I pushed hard I could get 
> it up to 200W, but only sustain about 100W. The only time I used it is when 
> my battery was depleted and I wanted to watch TV. I had a 12VDC 5" B&W TV (so 
> cute), so I would pedal like crazy during the commercials and it would just 
> make it to the next commercial. It was way too loud to do it while watching. 
> I eventually got a generator setup from Backwoods. 
> 
> Brad
> 
> On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 3:11 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches 
>  > wrote:
> As I recall from pushing the "wayback" button, Backwoods and Real Goods 
> used to sell something like that in the 90s.  I would only see a 
> pyschological benefit, based on the system size. I recall that the 
> charge rate was less than 50 watts, so its really not going to be worth 
> wiring into the system.  Maybe she could do what several folks have 
> done: power a TV while you pedal.  Anyway, here is device that might do 
> it:   https://www.econvergence.net/ 
> 
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 
> On 3/16/2023 3:58 PM, Larry Brown via RE-wrenches wrote:
> > Wrenches
> >
> > I have a client that we did an off grid system for about 4 years ago
> > The system is performing well
> > The client would like to keep charged her batteries in the winter with her 
> > stationary bicycle operating a small generator
> > Right now she uses a grid connection that was available and she turns on a 
> > breaker if needed to charge the batteries in the winter through the inverter
> > When the batteries are fully charged she turns the breaker back off
> > No need for any back up other times of year
> > That is the only use of the grid
> >
> > Her request was to be off grid
> > This set up eliminated the need for her to have a generator for winter low 
> > light conditions
> > So far all is working as designed
> > But there is talk of adding a gas generator so that if the grid is down, 
> > there is a back up available
> >   
> > The system has 16- AGM Concorde SunXtener Batteries configured in 2 strings 
> > of 8 batteries per string
> > They are PVX 3050T 6 volt batteries operating at 48VDC
> > They are charged from the PV Array by 2- Schneider Conext MPPT 80 600 
> > Charge Controllers
> > The system has a Schneider Conext XW+ 5548 Single Inverter
> >
> > Any thoughts or ideas of what equipment can be matched with a stationary 
> > bicycle that might give a trickle charge to the battery bank
> > Anyone ever played with setting this up?
> > She wants to try this out and see what is possible
> > Get some winter exercise and perhaps keep the batteries as close to full 
> > without using the grid or a back up gas generator
> >
> > All suggestions welcome
> >
> > Thanks
> > Larry
> >
> > Larry Brown
> > Sun Mountain
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

[jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi Danny

Lots of variables.  As the warranty is over, that is no longer a concern to 
deal with
The fact that you’ve had 2 go bad at the 5 year point, usually means you can 
expect other failures soon.  

There are 2 options I’ve done.
1. is to hi grade the battery bank into best 16 batteries, but that only works 
if that capacity is enough. Then as you get more failures in the near future ( 
probably) you’ll have extras to pop in.

2. is to go buy as close as possible another L16.  Given the age of them, a new 
battery is going to be in the ball park to the same capacity.  The chemistry of 
the rolls likes  2.5vpc but as they age that goes down in my experience as they 
begin to use way too much water.  So that allows the newer battery to actually 
be a better match. 

But you’re probably only looking at another few years to go.  My attitude with 
older batteries is they are already paid for, you  might as well use the crap 
out of them, treat them hard as they don’t have long to live. And most people 
just don’t have the extra money to just go out and buy a new expensive battery 
bank.  


jay




  



> On Apr 3, 2023, at 11:03 AM, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hello Wrenches,
>  
> Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550’s. 2 of the batteries have given up the 
> ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty.
>  
> The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls batteries 
> to save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA batteries from a local 
> battery house for the same price I am going to get the new Rolls for. And 
> that also means they don’t need to pay for freight. The net result is that 
> they could save $4-500 by getting the batteries locally. No freight, and no 
> markup on the batteries we provide (I can technically add the lost markup 
> back in as labor, we do need to make something off of the 3hr one way drive 
> to swap the batteries)
>  
> Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like this?
>  
> 3 x strings of 8 c S550’s (L-16HC would be the replacements) both dead 
> batteries are on the same string.
> Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark.
> The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. (they baby 
> the battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance seriously)
>  
> I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to let them 
> shoot themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know what the chances are 
> of swapping in batteries from a different brand. In my head, I don’t see a 
> big issue, even if they are sub par, they will likely just get older faster, 
> and fail around the same time as the rest of the 4-5yr old battery bank. But 
> I’m unsure if there are any more subtle issue that these other batteries 
> would cause.
>  
> Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give them a fair 
> shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to lithium when the whole 
> battery bank finally gives out.
>  
> With Regards,
> --
>  
> Danny Young
> NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90
> Engineering Team Lead
> Solar Energy Solutions
> Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis
> 513-448-5176 (mobile)
> 877-312-7456 (Main Office)
> da...@sesre.com 
>  
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[RE-wrenches] Enphase failure

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi all

I’m just starting to try and figure out a failed enphase system that was just 
noticed to be off line a few days ago. 

12 x IQ7A
400 watt panels 
The install is 20’ from the main transformer/load center.  1000 amp commercial 
panel 

There is no monitoring because they couldn’t get cat 5 to it and they won’t 
allow wifi as it’s on federal land. 

Ground mount

Installed 5/21
Failed  10/22

240vac at the trunk cable connection points where the inverter connects

All inverters show orange LED meaning no communication. 

All of the inverters don’t work. 

Does anyone have any ideas?
I’m sort of stumped how all 12 inverters are broken?

Thanks

Jay





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase failure

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

A follow up on this 

I talked to a buddy at a large company that installs enphase.  

He said the issue is that the firmware fails without the web for updates. He’s 
seen it lots of times. 

Which means this project will have to get web connected to hopefully fix it. 

I haven’t found in the instructions or warranty that web connection is 
mandatory, but maybe I missed it. 

Jay



> On Apr 12, 2023, at 3:34 PM, Jay  wrote:
> 
> Hi all
> 
> I’m just starting to try and figure out a failed enphase system that was just 
> noticed to be off line a few days ago. 
> 
> 12 x IQ7A
> 400 watt panels 
> The install is 20’ from the main transformer/load center.  1000 amp 
> commercial panel 
> 
> There is no monitoring because they couldn’t get cat 5 to it and they won’t 
> allow wifi as it’s on federal land. 
> 
> Ground mount
> 
> Installed 5/21
> Failed  10/22
> 
> 240vac at the trunk cable connection points where the inverter connects
> 
> All inverters show orange LED meaning no communication. 
> 
> All of the inverters don’t work. 
> 
> Does anyone have any ideas?
> I’m sort of stumped how all 12 inverters are broken?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Jay
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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[RE-wrenches] Free sunpump core

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi all

I inherited a sunpump model 
SDS-t-128
It just a core at this point, needs a complete rebuild. 

If anyone wants it contact me offsite. 
Just shipping charge. 

Jay

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[RE-wrenches] Lithium battery aging

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi all

I hope some of you might know the answer to these questions. 

When a Lithium battery ages, is its voltage reduced?  If so by how much?  

Is the C rate reduced?

Is the only change lower amp hours?

And finally how does the BMS determine this reduction?  How does it know it’s 
lower capacity without doing a full to empty test?

The questions arise from a conversation about adding new to old batteries. 

Just trying to learn more. 

Thanks

Jay





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium upgrade when Magnasine goes to float too soon

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi MickI can’t find it in the manual but from memory the magnum won’t go into absorb unless the volts drop below some number, which I can’t find. Maybe tech support can help with that. I’ve been using eg4 server rack batteries. It’s hard to beat the price, built in display, modular design, UL listed. And not all lithium batteries want a constant charge voltage.  Some do, some don’t. CheersJayOn Apr 18, 2023, at 1:55 PM, Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches  wrote:Hi, Mechanix~ I have several local clients with various different versions of Magnum pure sine inverters & all of the inverters seem to transition to the float stage soon after the charge cycle begins. I've observed this even when the inverters & batteries were brand new. I'm aware of the menus about adjusting the bulk time duration but even adjusting that to the longest setting never helped. Since these clients are all off grid with no generator automation, I just tweaked the float voltage to match the bulk voltage then instructed the clients to turn off their generator when the target voltage appears on their display. The batteries were always lead acid floodies. Now that some of these clients need better batteries (& I hope they can afford transitioning to lithium), are there any mfr's for drop in replacement lithium which don't care if the gen-powered charger can't shift downward for the float voltage? The customers' PV chargers all have a float function that does work right. I know that Blue Planet suggests 55.2v DC for all charge stages, but my Magnum systems are all either 12v nominal or 24v nominal, so I'll need to find a different brand that builds the lower voltage batteries. The clients can still shut down the generator when the target voltage is reached, but what if they fail to shut down soon after the setpoint is reached? I wouldn't want to put anybody's battery warranty at risk due to this strange charging quirk. Also, I'd like to know if any other Wrenchies have noticed this peculiarity with the Magnum inverters. Thanks in advance; the Wrench List is The Bomb!Mick Abraham, Proprietorwww.abrahamsolar.comLandline: 970-731-4675Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584ᐧ
___List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] active vs apparent power readings with solar

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Certainly could be the meter or how it’s being used. Like is the Electrican checking the main or output from the inverter?If the inverter output shows these numbers I’d check to make sure the inverter is in the correct grid connection  setting. JayOn Apr 27, 2023, at 5:13 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches  wrote:
My metrology experience is he needs to prove it with a second meter. In a lab setting, at least 2 of 3 calibrated meters need to agree.
 
I would also ask Fluke. They have been really good over the years. Good Luck.
 
Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060


On 2023-04-27 2:10 pm, August Goers via RE-wrenches wrote:


Hi Wrenches,
 
We have a residential site with grid tied solar where there is an electrician involved who has gotten into taking site readings and thinks there is a power factor problem. My gut on it is that there is some sort of measurement reading error, and that the power factor should be around 1. 
 
The electrician is using a Fluke 3540FC power monitor and has provided a spreadsheet comparing active power to apparent power and calculating power factor. See below (you might have to open the image and zoom in to read it). This measurement was taken with a PV system running, presumably sending some power back to the grid.  Note that the phase B active power measurement is negative (PV exporting to grid) and that the apparent power is positive. This nets in a power factor that is crazy low of 0.05.
 
Does anyone have experience about whether a meter like this can properly measure these readings - maybe there is a setting error or it can't deal with negative readings?
 

 
Best,
 
August
Luminalt



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Re: [RE-wrenches] problem using Radian on TOU metering

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Which utility has such low rates?

SMUD?

Jay



> On May 2, 2023, at 12:05 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hello, I apologize for perhaps a dumb question.  I did go online to ask 
> Outback twice, no answer.System Radian 8 kW and Mate3 with 2 each 1.5 kW 
> solar arrays into 2 ea. MX60s.  Battery 20 kWh LiFe open loop.  The owner 
> wants the lowest energy bill.  The rates are; off-peak at 0.04/kWh and 
> on-peak at 0.21/kWh.  My choice is battery and solar on-peak 9:00 am to 9:00 
> pm.  However, the homeowner will deplete the battery on cloudy days,  AND the 
> Outback will turn off leaving them without power.  Is there a way to switch 
> to grid power for this period?   I do not want to charge the battery at this 
> time. 
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[RE-wrenches] Battery balancers

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi All

I’m wondering what the thoughts are on using or not balancers for 2  12v 
lithium in series for 24v system. The batteries don’t have any series 
communication. 
Kilovault if that matters. 
Not my design. 

It would seem to be a good idea, with victron having a good one. 

Thanks in advance

Jay
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[RE-wrenches] Retail price lists

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi All 

I have a question about how wrenches are dealing with charging for equipment as 
most prices of most equipment on line at or below wholesale. 

If people are marking it up, how much? what metric are people using?  I think 
victron might be the only company I’ve actually seen a retail price list for in 
years. 
Maybe it’s just marking up labor costs a lot?

I’m not doing all that much work these days but enough that I’m trying to 
figure this out. 

Thanks
Jay


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fortress LFPs & ENVY 12kw inverter

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi KirkIt’s the same Chinese company who makes both. Deye If I understand correctly sol ark’s exclusive arrangement with Deye ended. JayOn Jun 1, 2023, at 10:19 AM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches  wrote:Hello All,I am sizing my first Fortress system, 18.5kwh LFPs w/ their new ENVY inverter. Or would a Sol-Ark be a better fit? I understand both inverters are somewhat similar.Any opinions from the real-world of installs would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.-- Kirk Herander / kirkh@vermont.solarOwner|Principal, VT Solar, LLCCelebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!dba Vermont Solar Engineering802.863.1202
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Bonding Metal Roofs Part II

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

But isn’t the whole concept of RS to prevent the energizing of say a metal roof?The inverter sees a ground fault or ark fault. Trips off line, the RS activate and now it’s less than 80v. Isn’t that what it’s supposed to do?What is the purpose of grounding the metal roof?JayOn Jun 6, 2023, at 10:09 AM, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches  wrote:








If I am not mistaken, this derives from some UL testing that showed that a metal roof may become energized during a thermal event.I suppose no less important than our RSD requirements...-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.-- Original message--From: Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenchesDate: Tue, Jun 6, 2023 10:25 AMTo: offgridso...@sti.net;RE-wrenches;Cc:
 Jason Szumlanski;Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Bonding Metal Roofs Part III'm watching this thread with interest. Is anyone aware of any serious injury or property damage caused by an energized metal roof, and if so, what were the circumstances? Is bonding metal roofs a solution looking for a problem?In response to the ground mount alternative, that isn't really an option in many areas of Florida where the cost can be 50% higher or more to ground mount if it's even practical due to flood level. Tile and shingle roofs in Southwest Florida are being switched to metal at shocking rates in the wake of Hurricane Ian, and we love it from an
 installer's standpoint. Fortunately, I haven't run into any bonding inspection issues for over 10 years here.Jason SzumlanskiPrincipal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design GroupNABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956On
 Mon, Jun 5, 2023 at 8:28 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches  wrote:
Hey Adam,
 
Creative solution #1  Do not install solar on any roof if you can ground mount it.
 
Is this He Adam or the Him Adam?
 
Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060


On 2023-06-05 3:47 pm, AE Solar via RE-wrenches wrote:


Hey all,
I had started a thread about bonding to metal roofs in 2018 but can't figure out how to respond via the archive. I know some things have changed since then, so I'm circling back and starting a new thread. 
 
In NY one of our inspection agencies (NYSERDA) requires bonding of metal roof panels below the array, as well as within a 3' perimeter of the array. S-5! in combination with Ironridge is now listed to bond the roof under the array (so long as you hit every pan with an attachment) but this doesn't solve the problem of
 trying to bond within the 3' perimeter. For installs where we are only 18" from the ridge, this means we are required to bond the adjacent roof as well.
 
Whenever possible we install Illsco SGB-4 lugs under the ridge cap. But more and more we're finding roofs where the ridge cap feels inaccessible, tricky, or where we simply don't want to get into roof warranty issues associated with opening up a prior contractor's work.
 
Wondering if anyone else is coming up against this and what some possible creative solutions might be. I don't want to walk away from potential projects but...
 
As always, thanks for any thoughts
Adam
 








Adam Katzman (he/him)Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator
www.AutonomousEnergies.com(518) 567-1468





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider SCP / MPPT 80 600 / XW+ / Gateway questions

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi greg

There was just a thread that discussed you can’t use the scp to program the 
pro. Have to use insight. 
If I understand correctly. 

Hopefully others more knowledgeable will chime in about your other issues too. 

Good luck

Jay


> On Jun 11, 2023, at 11:37 AM, greg egan via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
>  Friends, 
> 
> I'm currently onsite with a system.  Just replaced 4 XW + 6848's with 4 XW 
> Pros.  Updated the Gateway to rev. 1.17 and the Pros to 2.04.  Have some 
> questions/observations so far.
> 
> System: Off Grid with 4 XW Pros, 18 MPPT 80 600s, 2 SCPs, 1 Gateway, 1 
> Battery Monitor, 1 AGS.  3000 ahr of NiFe batteries.  36 kW Kubota Genset.
> 
> I tried using the Inverter SCP to program settings on the new inverters and 
> it took everything but when I checked on InsightLocal the settings had not 
> changed.  They were all still default so I had to go through it again one at 
> a time through insightlocal.  I'm guessing the SCP no longer works for 
> programming with the Gateway?  Can anyone confirm?  Programming used to work 
> through the SCP with the old XW+ inverters and firmware.  
> 
> Tried using the Solar SCP to change settings on the charge controls but had 
> to use insight local to change each individually.  Used to be able to use  
> the "copy from" function which was a real time saver.  Wondering if anyone 
> else has run into the same problem, or if it works for them, what am I 
> missing?  Is there a cool way to change one setting with insightlocal and get 
> it to change the other 17?  
> 
> Observations:
> - looking at the CC's via insightlocal,
> under configuration -> advanced ->controls - I set all chargers "enabled" 
> but the next day or so they all go to "disabled".  They all still work 
> though.  Doesn't seem to affect operations.  
> 
> under configuration -> advanced ->charger settings - I have the first CC 
> set to "primary" and the rest to secondary.  No idea if that's right or not.  
> seems to work.  Options are "stand-alone, primary, secondary and echo".  I 
> could not find definitions in the manual on them.  
> 
> - looking at the XW Pros via insight local,
> under configuration -> advanced ->controls -> Backup Mode - I disabled 
> BAckup mode since I'm not backing up the grid. System shut down immediately.  
> Backup mode must be enabled when you're off grid.  
> 
> Thanks in advance : )
> 
> Greg Egan
> Remote Power Inc
> Fairbanks, AK
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[RE-wrenches] Fronius primo fan

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Does anyone know where to get a replacement fan for a fronius promo 10kw?

Thx

Jay
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[RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi All

I’m wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not?

Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs pouch?

A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of 
balanced. Tech support didn’t suggest higher volts or longer absorb but did 
mention they need 30-50 amps charge. It’s not in the manual. 

Wondering what you all think and know

Thx
Jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

These are 100 amp hr eg4 48v  batteries. Tech support said their recommended charge rate per battery is 30-50 amps. I asked because Ive never heard this and it still doesn’t sound correct. All of the responses have been consistent and I will try to get someone higher up to review all this and report backThxJayOn Jun 27, 2023, at 10:07 AM, Starlight via RE-wrenches  wrote:Hi Steve,My experience is different. First, I don’t know of any stationary battery systems that have C2 charge ability, many not even C1. A 20kWh bank C2 rate would be 40kW or over 770Amps @ 52V. I have 10 years experience with Li batteries, (hundreds of Li installations, mobile and off grid), and thousands of LiFeBlue Battery customers, low current charging works without issues. Most of these systems charge at the high end 0.35 C rate or less. Jay did not mention the bank size so we don’t know the C rate for the 30-50 Amp recommendation. But I guess it is far lower than 1C.Long absorb (CV) times may cause a cell to saturate resulting in rapid voltage rise and the BMS protection inhibiting input current. This sudden loss of load (essentially a battery disconnect) can cause havoc with some inverter/chargers and PV solar controllers. In our experience, the best method to set Absorb times for any Li system is by trial. If the cell voltages are staying relatively close during discharge (6mv in the attached image), then balancing time (> 3.55V CV) is sufficient, whether it is 0.1 hours or much more.  
Larry CrutcherStarlight Solar Power Systems(GM, LiFeBlue Battery)

<32ED5403-8A66-4ED5-AFFD-E308D5FC48C6_1_105_c.jpeg>On Jun 27, 2023, at 6:33 AM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:For many LFP batteries, while some say you can charge at the C1 Rate, most want you to charge at the C2 or C3 rate.    While you don't have to get them full all the time like lead, as long as you are cycling regularly, it is still a good idea to get them to full regularly.   Now if they are a backup system or not being cycled, they should not be held to full all the time. This can accelerate damage to the cells. Where we see the major mistakes are the absorb timer settings.   Too many people are setting the absorb timers too short, especially if they have parallel modules and are not running closed-loop communications, or the batteries can't communicate with each other or the chargers. In these cases where you have 2,3,4... more batteries in parallel, the absorb timers can help balance them as the batteries that don't need balancing stop charging, while the cells that need the extra time get that time if you have longer absorb timers. We advise for our LFP drop in's that you have the following.   Assuming that you are charging at least the C2 Rate. 1 Parallel Connection = 30-45 mins absorb timers. 2 Parallel Connections = 45-60 mins. 3 Parallel Connections 60-90 mins. 4 Parallel Connections 90-120 mins Steve Higgins ⋅ 
Technical Services Manager 
 
 
t 
+1.902.597.4020  m 
+1.206.790.5840f +1.902.597.8447  e 
st...@surrette.com 
CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies.On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 6:51 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:Hi Jay, Larry says is correct.  My experience, with cells and there BMS is they need to get up to top balance voltage then the BMS will stop charging the full cells and bring the remainder of cells up to fill charge.  My oldest set is about 6 years old, since I understood they have been fine On Mon, Jun 26, 2023, 3:58 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:Hi All

I’m wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not?

Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs pouch?

A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of balanced. Tech support didn’t suggest higher volts or longer absorb but did mention they need 30-50 amps charge. It’s not in the manual. 

Wondering what you all think and know

Thx
Jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

FYIThe 12 and 15kw both have dual lugs on positive and negative battery inputs. On Jun 29, 2023, at 6:47 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches  wrote:I was thinking the Midnite combiner, but it's a very big product for what we're trying to accomplish. I was hoping Polaris type tap connectors might be able to do it. I think this application is going to require a somewhere around 800A calculated minimum circuit ampacity. I'm not quite certain how to calculate the required ampacity properly for this bus. Either way, I would need to find a connector that accepts fine stranded cable. Such an animal might not exist in the required ampacity. The Ilsco PBTS line accepts find stranded cable, and if you stagger inputs and outputs it is my understanding that the ampacity allowance is additive. The 600 MCM 4-port connectors might have the required ampacity. Maybe I'm dreaming and a Polaris-type connector isn't an easy way out.Alternatively, I was thinking of a Blue Sea 1000A busbar mounted in a trough or junction box. Jason SzumlanskiPrincipal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design GroupNABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 7:58 AM  wrote:Hi JasonWe’re using the Midnite MNCB battery combiner for the same purpose.https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=439&productCatName=BATTERYI’m curious what others may suggest for options.ThanksRich From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenchesSent: Thursday, June 29, 2023 7:55 AMTo: RE-wrenchesCc: Jason SzumlanskiSubject: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar Hi all, I'm doing my first installation with two 24 kWh Homegrid stacks. They will feed two Sol-Ark 15k. I'm seeking recommendations on busbars for connecting this up in the most elegant way possible. Pictures speak 1,000 words, so if you have any I would appreciate it (off-list is fine). Jason SzumlanskiFlorida Solar Design Group  

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Pro Power saving device

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

And even if it did power factor correction most residential customers are not charged for power factor.  Zero savings. On Jul 6, 2023, at 12:27 PM, Dan Fink via RE-wrenches  wrote:It's supposed to adjust power factor for the home loads with a teeny tiny capacitor in the overpriced plug-in box. While power factor correction can be done at large scale with big banks of switched capacitors and PF sensing system (cost of $30k+, only for large facilities) , this is ludicrous for home-scale loads with no sensing system. These are 100% a scam. I am very proud of getting one of these dealers getting kicked out of a prominent renewable energy event a few years back. Snake oil has no place in our business model!Dan FinkOwner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLCIREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind InstallationNABCEP Certified PV System InspectorNABCEP PV Associatedanbo...@gmail.com970-672-4342 On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 11:25 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches  wrote:
  


  
  
Hey all you mighty
  Wise Folks!
I have an off grid
  client that sent me a adv. for this device. 

propowersaver.com
Does anyone know what
  this does?
Does It work?
How does it work?
-- 
  Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003
  d...@solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374
  "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"
  

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[RE-wrenches] Lithium battery recommendation

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi all

I’m
Looking for recommendations for a lithium battery. 48v.  150-200 kWh. 
System is probably going to be open comm, as the system has outback equipment. 
That could change but probably not. 
Remote monitoring is required even though it is a site with people 24/7. 

So far fortress and home grid. Have been recommended to look at. 
Blue planet is just too expensive. 

And PS. Fortress says that you cannot add batteries after 1 year. This goes 
against everything I thought I understood about lithium. 
Any comments about why they say that? 
Do others say rhat?

Thanks in advance 

Jay



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Re: [RE-wrenches] [EXTERNAL] Re: Lithium battery recommendation

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Great info everyone snd it brings up more options for me to review. I’m still wondering if there are comments about Fortress saying that you cannot add a battery to a bank that is 1 year old. I just don’t understand lithium enough to know why. And most curious that no other companies I’m aware of say this. If the voltage is very similar with age and just capacity is less then that is something that can be delt with via LVD settings. Given that most batteries are 5-8000 cycles and that roughly the capacity is 80% at that point is only an about 1% capacity loss per year?  That doesn’t make sense it’s an issue. If there is a change in the voltage parameters, say the upper end lowers. A few tenths lower over years is a big deal? Doesn’t seem like it. I’m not sure what would happen on the low end volts up, down? But why would it be a problem?Thx in advance JayOn Jul 14, 2023, at 8:44 AM, White, Will via RE-wrenches  wrote:







I’d also look at Victron. They can close loop communicate with several battery systems, and my sources say they’ve also got an EV charger that works with their off-grid systems that can be programmed to charge the EV when you have excess
 solar. 
 
Kienan Maxfield, who’s on the list, is distributing Victron products, and he knows the technology well.

 
 
 


From: RE-wrenches 
On Behalf Of Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2023 7:12 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Michael Morningstar 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery recommendation


 
CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
 click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
 


If they are going to spend that kind of money, ditch OB. I've never had an Outback system, going all the way back, that didn't puke prematurely and have issues. Discover AES and Schneider for the win. Once they are set up, they just work. 

 


On Thu, Jul 13, 2023 at 3:20 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:


Hi all

I’m
Looking for recommendations for a lithium battery. 48v.  150-200 kWh. 
System is probably going to be open comm, as the system has outback equipment. That could change but probably not.

Remote monitoring is required even though it is a site with people 24/7. 

So far fortress and home grid. Have been recommended to look at. 
Blue planet is just too expensive. 

And PS. Fortress says that you cannot add batteries after 1 year. This goes against everything I thought I understood about lithium.

Any comments about why they say that? 
Do others say rhat?

Thanks in advance 

Jay



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-- 


Michael Morningstar
 
Morningstar Electric
PO Box 1494
Mount Shasta, CA 96067
530-921-0560
mjmornings...@gmail.com







Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the sender and delete this message.


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX

[jay via RE-wrenches]

HI All,

I wanted to revisit this thread for one reason.

If you turn off the inverter at the remote on/off with the AUX relay, then 
starting the generator won’t have any impact as the inverter is off.  
So someone will have to go and reset the AUX relay.

Vs

If you do a relay on the AC output, when you start the generator, it will start 
charging, raising the battery volts, causing the AUX relay to close AC output 
relay and you’ll have power in the house.

Am I missing something?

thanks

jay








Here is the last email I think:

Mac,

I think you've got an elegant solution to the problem. All you need is an 
inexpensive relay and to program the Aux output for loadshed. I believe 
shutting down the inverter with the remote on/off contacts is actually less 
stressful on the inverter than opening a relay or contactor on the load side.
Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 7/11/2023 5:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote:
Hello Wrenches,

I'm trying to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system.  It's a quad 
stack of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple of Fortress eVault and 
an unreliable generator. The LBCO setting can't go high enough to cut out 
before the eVaults cut out so he occasionally will have to direct charge the 
eVault to get things running again.
I'd like to use a 12V Aux relay logic to trip the primary inverter on/off 
contacts before we go into battery shutdown so the solar has a chance to 
recover the system.  Pretty simple overall but I wanted to see if there are any 
known ill effects of doing this with substantial load on the system.  Of 
course, I can use a power relay but this may be better.
Thanks for your input!

--

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[RE-wrenches] Outback lithium LVD

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

I apologize in advance if this is a duplicate. 

I was contemplating the discussion about how to deal with an inverter that 
doesnt have the correct LBCO for a lithium LVD voltage. 

A suggested option for OB was to install a relay triggered by the AUX and 
controlling the inverter remote on/off switch. 

But if the aux switches, then the inverter is off and you won’t be able to 
charge with a generator. Right?

I’m asking as I have this exact situation and I’m planning on a relay on the ac 
inverter output so the client can just turn on the generator and it’ll charge 
up. 

Am I missing something?

Thanks
Jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi RayThis house won’t have an AGS, manual start only. And your comments exactly, having to wait until the next day when hopefully there is enough sun to charge the battery is iffy. Or they could do the inverter bypass switch. Again I’m back to why is it a worse idea to install a relay on the AC? ThxJayAs to the sol ark which I never thought about it being in a sense an AC coupled system. IE if the inverter is off it won’t charge. I guess you’ll have to install an external  battery charger?On Jul 20, 2023, at 5:08 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches  wrote:
  

  
  
The aux off is only if the generator doesn't start.  You need to
  set the gen start voltage higher. Aux off is last ditch shut down,
  set for 44v for lead acid, or 47 to 49v, depending on the battery
  and inverter.   Hopefully DC coupled PV will raise the voltage
  enough to turn the inverters back on the next day.  

This is my concern on Solark installs, I just noticed that the
  inverter won't pass through PV, if it hits its LVD set point.  

On 7/20/2023 3:04 PM, jay via
  RE-wrenches wrote:


  
  HI All,
  
  
  I wanted to revisit this thread for one reason.
  
  
  If you turn off the inverter at the remote on/off
with the AUX relay, then starting the generator won’t have any
impact as the inverter is off.  
  So someone will have to go and reset the AUX relay.
  
  
  Vs
  
  
  If you do a relay on the AC output, when you start
the generator, it will start charging, raising the battery
volts, causing the AUX relay to close AC output relay and you’ll
have power in the house.
  
  
  Am I missing something?
  
  
  thanks
  
  
  jay
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Here is the last email I think:
  
  
  
Mac,


I think
  you've got an elegant solution to the problem. All you need
  is an
  inexpensive relay and to program the Aux output for loadshed.
  I believe
  shutting down the inverter with the remote on/off contacts is actually less
  stressful on the inverter than opening a relay or contactor on
  the load side.
Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 7/11/2023 5:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote:


  Hello Wrenches,


  I'm trying
to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system.  It's a quad stack
of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple of Fortress
eVault and an unreliable generator. The LBCO setting can't
go high enough to cut out before the eVaults cut out
so he occasionally will have to direct charge the eVault
to get things running again.I'd like to use a 12V Aux relay
logic to trip the primary inverter on/off contacts before
we go into battery shutdown so the solar has a chance to
recover the system.  Pretty simple overall but I wanted to see if there
are any known ill effects of doing this with substantial load on the
system.  Of course, I can use a power relay but this may be better.
  Thanks for your input!

--



  
  
  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

I’ve never used one before. Can you recommend one?On Jul 21, 2023, at 5:12 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches  wrote:To avoid power relay, how about adding a voltage sensing coil on the AC input and have an NC contactor that opens on voltage in series with the inverter shutdown circuit.  This should interrupt the inverter shutdown any time the generator is on.On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 6:00 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
  

  
  
I've done the AC relay idea as well, on Schneider that didn't
  have the easy off switching like the Outbacks.  The problems are:
  1) Much bigger relay, much higher current on the control side as
  well.  It required a relay for the relay.
  2) If there's a malfunction, you are messing with the main feeders
  for the home. 
  3) The inverters are still on with their no load draw, a pair of
  VFX inverters, would be 45 to 50 watts, so you could still shut
  the batteries down. 

I think in your case without AGS, the trick might be to add a
  bypass control switch parallel to the relay, so they can manually
  turn the inverters back on.  

Ray

On 7/20/2023 5:15 PM, Jay wrote:


  
  Hi Ray
  
  
  This house won’t have an AGS, manual start only. 
  
  
  And your comments exactly, having to wait until the
next day when hopefully there is enough sun to charge the
battery is iffy. 
  
  
  Or they could do the inverter bypass switch. 
  
  
  Again I’m back to why is it a worse idea to install
a relay on the AC? 
  
  
  Thx
  
  
  Jay
  
  
  As to the sol ark which I never thought about it
being in a sense an AC coupled system. IE if the inverter is off
it won’t charge. 
  I guess you’ll have to install an external  battery
charger?
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
On Jul 20, 2023, at 5:08 PM, Ray Walters
  via RE-wrenches 
  wrote:
  

  
  

  
  The aux off is only if the generator doesn't start.  You
need to set the gen start voltage higher. Aux off is last
ditch shut down, set for 44v for lead acid, or 47 to 49v,
depending on the battery and inverter.   Hopefully DC
coupled PV will raise the voltage enough to turn the
inverters back on the next day.  
  
  This is my concern on Solark installs, I just noticed that
the inverter won't pass through PV, if it hits its LVD set
point.  
  
          On 7/20/2023 3:04 PM, jay via
RE-wrenches wrote:
  
  

HI All,


I wanted to revisit this thread for one
  reason.


If you turn off the inverter at the remote
  on/off with the AUX relay, then starting the generator
  won’t have any impact as the inverter is off.  
So someone will have to go and reset the AUX
  relay.


Vs


If you do a relay on the AC output, when you
  start the generator, it will start charging, raising the
  battery volts, causing the AUX relay to close AC output
  relay and you’ll have power in the house.


Am I missing something?


thanks


jay
















Here is the last email I think:



  Mac,


  I think you've got an elegant solution to the
problem. All you need is an inexpensive
relay and to program the Aux output for loadshed. I believe
shutting down the inverter with the remote on/off
contacts is actually less stressful on the inverter
than opening a relay or contactor on the
load side.
  Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 7/11/2023 5:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote:

  
Hello Wrenches,


I'm trying to solve an issue with an older
  Outback FX system.  It's a quad stack of
  Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple of Fortress eVault and an unreliable generator.
  The LBCO setting can't go high enough to
  cut out before the eVaults cut out so he occasionally will ha

Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Given that it worked fine for years it would appear that the XW+ has an issue. I don’t see how the SE could cause this. Is it still under warranty? What does Schneider say about the issue. JayOn Jul 22, 2023, at 10:33 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches  wrote:Michael, that is my last ditch choice as I will be eating the cost and time.  When I installed this setup 4+ years ago, having done a few similar installations (although mostly on grid), I had not seen any issue with the design, nor heard anyone else suggesting that this design might cause this type of issue. And this did not become an issue at this site until a few months ago, having operated well until then. As I am now hearing, the XW+ is not well equipped to handle voltage regulation when dealing with AC coupled inverters. I don't really understand why the issue is just now showing up, although I suppose it could possibly be due to lightning damage. If the only solution is to install a high voltage charge controller, so be it.  Unfortunately this won't be an insignificant cost in dollars and time, a cost I'm not excited to be affording, particularly right now after taking on some substantial losses due to our recent historical flooding.  If there was another, less expensive solution, I'd be happy to hear about it. Sorry to sound whiny, I'm just not very happy about this eventuality...Howie Sun CatcherSolar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 11:49 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches  wrote:Replacing SE with Conext 600-100😊, Seriously, everything will then play nice together, and it's only a matter of time before the SE has to go.On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 4:02 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches  wrote:Hi,I was finally able to get to the site with the light pulsating issue. It turns out it is that it directly corresponds to the AC coupled SolarEdge HDwave 6kW inverter.  Moreover, the pulsating gets stronger with higher output of the SolarEdge inverter (as more sun pouches more current through the inverter). And the hum of the XW+ very noticeably fluctuates in direct proportion to light fluxuations. It affects all the lights in the house, regardless of manufacturer, wattage or age. I did not have an oscilloscope, but looking at the Hz, it does sag very slightly to 59.9 when the SolarEdge is producing, down from a rock solid 60 Hz when the SE is not producing. The output voltage does not change at all.  The fluctuations in both the lights and the inverter hum immediately stops when the SolarEdge production is shut off. So it is clearly some interaction between the 2 inverters causing this issue.Has anyone dealt with this issue before? Does anyone have any suggestions for dealing with this, short of replacing the SolarEdge with a Schneider high voltage Charge Controller? Thanks,HowieOn Mon, Jul 3, 2023, 7:09 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches  wrote:
I think I would try eliminating things. Turn off the AC coupling for a few days and get results. Turn of DC solar and get results. Measure AC voltage with a scope or just observe voltage during the flicker. Are all of the lights flickering? Are they on dimmers?  Are there any loads failing that could be the source? Is the output with-in spec? Rock solid 60 HZ right.
 

Do an AC bypass of XW with the genset and check for flicker symptoms.
 

Are they on Insight? They really need it for you to monitor.  Are there any faults, warnings or events ? Check history.  There are a few settings in the old XW+ that could have been glitched by a surge or nearby lightning strike.
 
XW+ could have a damaged FET. Open the unit and do a  visual. 
There would be a smell and transistor fragments on the bottom right side of the power bridge. 90% of XW failures have visual evidence. 

 
While you have it open, Check the DSP sensing and control board, both LEDs (light-emitting diodes) D24 and D25 are on.

 
Last thing is a DC power down of the unit and the DC buss for 5 minutes.  If that does not work, then a reset to factory values.
This is off an old list I got from Support many years ago and combined with my findings over the years. Really rare for this kind of weirdness and why it would be getting worse without visual evidence.
 
Good Luck Howie!
 
 
 

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060


 

On 2023-07-03 12:42 pm, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote:



Hi All,
I upgraded an old clients' off-grid system about five years ago to a Schneider XW6848+ and 2 Blue Ion 2.0 cabinets (32kWh). When the batteries were moving toward full, if the charge rate was on the higher side via generator or solar (AC coupled w/SolarEdge 6kW and DC coupled with an FM 80), they would start to get pulsating lights similar to symptoms of other older inverters when using a generator for cha

[RE-wrenches] Solar edge question

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi all

For all you SE experts. 

I got contacted from someone who has an offgrid system of a SE 7600A and 
battery. Works fine. 

They want to connect to grid power, which is right at the street because they 
want an EV. 

My question is, what do they need to make this a normal sell back and battery 
backup ( for a sub panel). 

Is it just the SE energy hub backup interface?  Or?
And does the 7600A work with that?

Thanks in advance 
Jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar edge question

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi KirkThanks. Their system is from around 2017. Battery/inverter have worked fine. Is there a way to go from offgrid like it is now to grid tie battery backup?  And what parts are needed?ThxJayOn Aug 2, 2023, at 6:27 AM, Kirk Herander  wrote:Hi Jay,The energy hub is incompatible with older Storedge inverters. And the newer SE battery pack is also incompatible with the Storedge.On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 8:22 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:Hi all

For all you SE experts. 

I got contacted from someone who has an offgrid system of a SE 7600A and battery. Works fine. 

They want to connect to grid power, which is right at the street because they want an EV. 

My question is, what do they need to make this a normal sell back and battery backup ( for a sub panel). 

Is it just the SE energy hub backup interface?  Or?
And does the 7600A work with that?

Thanks in advance 
Jay
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-- Kirk Herander / kirkh@vermont.solarOwner|Principal, VT Solar, LLCCelebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!dba Vermont Solar Engineering802.863.1202
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[RE-wrenches] Wind machines

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi all

Is anyone making a good quality 1-2kw wind machine?

All of my searches come up with nothing. 

Thanks in advance 
Jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Wind machines

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Yeah just kinda of sad they are gone. Like others, a friend called looking to replace a very old whisper power. Ok more solar it is. ThxJayOn Aug 17, 2023, at 9:51 AM, Roy Butler via RE-wrenches  wrote:

  

  
  
Good luck with that search Jay. 
  
  Most of the companies that manufactured machines in that size
  range went out of business quite some time ago.
  Unfortunately, lots of low quality equipment has filled that
  void.buyer beware!
  
  

Roy Butler
Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807
607-324-9747  www.four-winds-energy.com

Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t.

“The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.”

Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, 
a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.



On 8/17/2023 11:09 AM, Jay via
  RE-wrenches wrote:


  Hi all

Is anyone making a good quality 1-2kw wind machine?

All of my searches come up with nothing. 

Thanks in advance 
Jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Wind machines

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Im curious if anyone has actual measured data on a VAWT. It just seems like they are meat for the end of the worldersJayOn Aug 17, 2023, at 12:50 PM, Dan Fink via RE-wrenches  wrote:Jay, as Roy mentioned, the small wind situation in the 1-2 kW range right now is pretty grim - Tons of awful imported products with vastly inflated "ratings" flooding the market on Amazon, Ebay and AliBaba. I was particularly impressed (NOT) by a 900mm diameter VAWT that seems very popular thererated at 8000 watts! (face palm).There's the Superwind 1250 out of Germany that looks legit: https://www.superwind.com/superwind-1250/The AirForce 1 out of the UK looks possibly legit, though with 1.8m rotor they are counting on a cP of 0.33, which seems kinda high to me.https://futurenergy.co.uk/feshop/airforce-1-wind-turbines/I have no experience with actually flying these products however.Good luck! Solar is cheap but boring!Dan FinkOwner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLCIREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind InstallationNABCEP Certified PV System InspectorNABCEP PV Associatedanbo...@gmail.com970-672-4342 On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 9:11 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:Hi all

Is anyone making a good quality 1-2kw wind machine?

All of my searches come up with nothing. 

Thanks in advance 
Jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Iron Edison Lithiums

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Can you send pictures?  JayOn Aug 29, 2023, at 5:54 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches  wrote:




Leaking from somewhere mid way in the battery case I’m guessing. 
The liquid followed a cable down to the BMS board and corroded it badly. 


Jeremy Rodriguez 
Solar Installation / Design

All Solar, Inc.
1453 M St. 
Penrose Colorado 81240


Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. 





On Aug 29, 2023, at 10:30, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches  wrote:






Jeremy, wrenches
It's been some time since as they don't pencil very well, where are you seeing the leakage, case top or elsewhere 
Fun times 


On Tue, Aug 29, 2023, 6:53 AM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches  wrote:


If anyone has had issues with the Iron Edison lithiums leaking, please contact me off list
But , feel free to comment here if needed. 

Jeremy Rodriguez 
Solar Installation / Design
All Solar, Inc.
1453 M St. 
Penrose Colorado 81240

Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. 
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[RE-wrenches] sol ark AGS question

[jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi All,

I have a client with a sol ark and it doesn’t have warm up or cool down, kind 
of amazing companies are going backwards in their tech. 


Has anyone come up with external fix for this?

I am guessing the internal relay on the sol ark switches closed when it sees 
the correct volts/hz and opens the sol ark relay when it sends the off signal.

If thats correct I  can pretty easily use a delay relay on the off cycle 
assuming the on signal has a time window to allow for this delay in sending 
power to the inverter. 

 The on delay I don’t see anyway unless I use a contactor with on delay relay.

Maybe there is a off the shelf generator transfer switch that has this built in?

Thanks in advance

Jay






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Re: [RE-wrenches] Franklin Home Power

[jay via RE-wrenches]

I recently saw this.  I haven’t used either, but its looks well done.  

https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-powerpro-ess-14-3-28-6kwh-capacity-eg4-18kpv-eg4-powerpro-wallmount-battery-9540-pending/
 




> On Sep 16, 2023, at 5:02 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> I would definitely consider Sol-Ark if there were a NEMA 3R wall-mountable 
> 48V battery on the market. I'm having a hard time finding that.
> 
> For what it's worth, Franklin got back to me and they fully and 
> enthusiastically will support an off-grid system. There is no question that 
> they are making inroads. We are getting requests from clients for their brand 
> specifically. That said, I agree that there is significant risk in trying out 
> a newcomer for an important project, but I'm running out of options.
> 
> Jason Szumlanski
> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 11:24 PM Jerry Shafer  > wrote:
> Jason, Wrenches
> I am familiar with Franklin and when I asked them about the battery they had 
> all the answers but when I asked about the AC coupled inverter inside, mainly 
> who made it is it field serviceable I got deer in the headlights and a few 
> weeks later I asked them the same thing and again no answer. I would go with 
> something that has been around some. You talked about Solark, I have had no 
> issues with any of their inverters and my latest install was today connected 
> to a fortress. Of course time will tell on anything we use, Maybe franklin 
> has made it known what is inside but for me I will not use my customers as 
> unknowing guinea pigs, I test products myself and see what survives.
> Jerry
> 
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 1:35 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
>  > wrote:
> Does anyone know if Franklin supports their AC-coupled battery solution in a 
> completely off-grid scenario (no grid present)?
> 
> I need to install a demonstration system with ~40kWh capacity to run loads in 
> an outdoor off-grid facility. It needs to be wall mounted, NEMA 3R, and have 
> 10kW AC output rating minimum. Aesthetics are important.
> 
> I'm contemplating installing an Enphase 5P battery system, but it's not 
> officially supported, even though I believe I can trick the system enough to 
> get it commissioned and running in off-grid mode. If Franklin supports this, 
> that's a checkmark in their column of the comparison chart.
> 
> I'm not opposed to a 48V DC battery system with a Sol-Ark 15k or something 
> like that, but I think my options for wall-mount, outdoor, and beautiful are 
> going to be limited.
> 
> I don't need any generator integration.
> 
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
> 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] sol ark AGS question

[jay via RE-wrenches]

As I’ve been researching this, the Atkinson GSCM can do this when coupled to an 
external relay.

If I understand correctly.

Jay

The warm up ( on delay ) is 0- 60 seconds,

the cool down ( off delay) is 0-120 seconds

https://thesolarstore.com/manuals/GSCM.pdf

> On Sep 16, 2023, at 9:20 AM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> Michael,
> 
> Sol Ark does not have an explicit or adjustable cool down setting, but it has 
> fixed the problem of dropping the AGS signal under full load. 
> 
> dus...@sol-ark.com <mailto:dus...@sol-ark.com> can you confirm this? 
> 
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 5:41 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches 
>  <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> wrote:
> Chris, 
> Just so that I understand correctly, are you saying that new firmware allows 
> for generator cool down?
> 
> 
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 2:33 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
>  <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> wrote:
> I saw that setting. I didn't have a chance to look it up today, but I'm going 
> back to the site tomorrow. I'm going to play with that and try to get rid of 
> the ancillary equipment that is no longer necessary. Thanks for the tip.
> 
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2023, 5:26 PM Chris Sparadeo  <mailto:sparadeo.ch...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> In an off-grid scenario I would suggest utilizing the grid connect timer as a 
> Gen warm up. I typically set this qualification time to 30 or 60 seconds. Sol 
> Ark fixed the problem with dropping the 2 wire start under full load, so if 
> this is an issue for you, I would update the firmware. 
> 
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 4:56 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
>  <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> wrote:
> I just replaced two Sunny Islands and one Sunny Boy that I did not install 
> with a single Sol-Ark 15k today. The generator installer (not me) had already 
> installed a custom but simple time delay relay. I didn't get into the logic 
> of it, but from what I understand the generator already had a cool-down 
> period when remote start signal is lost, but no warm up delay. 
> 
> Major deficiency? I think that is actually pretty accurate and Sol-Ark should 
> fix it, but it isn't too hard to take care of it another way.
> 
> I wonder if this has something with the distinction of accepting generator 
> input on the grid input as well. You would not want a grid delay if it were a 
> utility. Still, they should be able to build in that logic I would think.
> 
> Jason Szumlanski
> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 8:28 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches 
>  <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> wrote:
> We learned of this major deficiency after an eight unit install. No cool down 
> is disastrous to modern diesels. Our work around was installing a 400amp 
> contactor and macromatic programmable relay. 
> 
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 10:05 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches 
>  <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> wrote:
> Jay, wrenches 
> ASCO makes multiple ATS controls that can manage delays latching up and for 
> cool down. Most of the gensets have are  programmed cool down after relay 
> opens so its not an issue. Generally on start up the genny connects as soon 
> as it's voltage and freq are within range.
> fun times
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 2:26 PM jay via RE-wrenches 
>  <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I have a client with a sol ark and it doesn’t have warm up or cool down, kind 
> of amazing companies are going backwards in their tech. 
> 
> 
> Has anyone come up with external fix for this?
> 
> I am guessing the internal relay on the sol ark switches closed when it sees 
> the correct volts/hz and opens the sol ark relay when it sends the off signal.
> 
> If thats correct I  can pretty easily use a delay relay on the off cycle 
> assuming the on signal has a time window to allow for this delay in sending 
> power to the inverter. 
> 
>  The on delay I don’t see anyway unless I use a contactor with on delay relay.
> 
> Maybe there is a off the shelf generator transfer switch that has this built 
> in?
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> Jay
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] GT w/ BB

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

If 40kw is the peak and then there are new added loads, what 50-60kw?  If it was me I’d be designing the inverters to handle the 50/60 kw with future expansion capabilities beyond that. Then how much kWh of storage are you going to need or maybe are planning for?At some point maybe looking at a larger single inverter with high voltage battery vs 48v?I’m not sure if there are any 120/240 versions yet.  JayOn Sep 18, 2023, at 12:36 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches  wrote:I like the Sol-Ark idea having had a few dual-unit successes recently. In terms of combining them, the Sol-ark manual has a good triple unit wiring diagram on page 53. You would have to use two 400A panelboards with three 200A breakers for each to follow this diagram. However, I don't see the point of a combining load center on the load side of the paralleled units. The Sol-Arks each have a 200A integrated load breaker, so why not just combine the outputs in a multi-tap connector or busbar? I think there is a code-compliant way to make that work, but I haven't studied it with three units.I would definitely ditch the SolarEdge inverters and just make it DC coupled to the Sol-Arks. You don't need these to be a failure point in the system, and the AC coupling will reduce the energy production in backup scenarios.It sounds like you would have to get the six 200 feeders out of the meter/main and into a new panelboard on the load side of the Sol-Arks. So that's another required load center.And if money is truly no object, I would consider a manual transfer switch to bypass the inverters for service. I'm afraid to look up what a 400A DPDT switch costs.Jason SzumlanskiPrincipal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design GroupNABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 1:14 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches  wrote:I've been asked to build a back up system for a grid connected estate. We haven't done many of these and I thought it best to ask those who have some questions before I go about reinventing the wheel.Here's the existing infrastructure.1) 400amp Metered Main Distribution Panel with six 200amp feeders to various sub-panels on the property2) 400amp ATS and 100kw Kohler rapid response generator 3) 20kw ground mount array with (2) SE Inverters located at the array. Feeder from array is 1,000 ft to Service. Six years old and wiring is janky.4) Data logging for the last year shows peak demands of almost 40kw. This could increase as several of formerly vacant  guest residences could be occupied.My go to is almost always Schneider, however in this instance when I looked into a quad stack, or more It seems like some type of controller is needed to prevent imbalanced current passing through the relays during transfer. That left me a bit concerned. Has anyone successfully stacked 4 or more XWPROs?Then there is the matter of AC or DC coupling? I really want no part in having anything to do with SE. The inverters are already looking pretty weathered taking the brunt of the prevailing winds and storms (they are mounted to one of the ground mount poles). Seems like a great waste to pull out the 4/0 feeders and replace strings. My other hesitancy with AC coupling is that we would lose PV monitoring and control.I've also considered Sol Ark 15's, like three of them. We've got some SA systems under are belt now and the only thing I can say that I like is the speed of installation and the 200amp pass through. Other than that, they leave me uninspired. One very large system continues to have glitches that SA just shrugs their shoulders about. If we were to do three 15's, what's the preferred combining method? All that I can come up with is a custom 400a panelboard w/ three 200a breakers. Price is not a consideration for this project. The new owners of this property (which is plagued with outages) have tasked me with building something that is ultra reliable and good take over in a situation where the grid is no longer available.Any suggestions or tips are appreciated.Michael-- 








Michael MorningstarMorningstar ElectricPO Box 1494Mount Shasta, CA 96067530-921-0560mjmornings...@gmail.com
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