Re: Fuse on OpenBSD
Theo, Don't you just love it when folks ask questions they already know the answers to? Still, FUSE is a wonderful idea. It certainly would make OpenBSD more versatile (and even allow it to wend its way further into both the user and corporate market segments. anyway, hope you are having a nice summer up there (its roasting here at or above 115). keep cool and don't let the buggers get you down. :) -Eric On Jul 3, 2013, at 5:55 PM, Theo de Raadt wrote: >> About a month ago, I followed up on tech@ that some fuse support had >> been merged into the kernel, but disable by default. >> (By the way, congrats and thanks to the devs for that! :D) >> >> I'm wondering if there's any timeframe for this getting enabled by default >> - I'd love to have fuse support, but I don't think I'm ready to void my >> warranty just yet ;) >> >> Is there more testing needed, or exactly what's necessary for it to >> move forward? >> >> On a somewhat related note; might this mean we might be able to port >> fuse drivers (like aufs) into BSD? :D > > Good grief. > > You can enable it yourself, right now. > > You can test it. You can find bugs. You can report them. You can > even try to fix them. You can communicate directly with developers > trying to bring it to fruition. > > Instead, what is your mail -- is it a rah rah please enable it > tomorrow? Is it a statement of "event if there is a major screw up > hiding, enable it tomorrow please please please rah rah rah?" > > Hugo, grow up. This is a participation community. The process is not > opaque. Opportunities for participation at all levels are highly > visible. Participate in development, to your own form. > > The email you sent above is not a form of participation. It is at > the level of "fanboy".
Re: Fuse on OpenBSD
Did I say that it had to be run today? Funny, I only remember remarking that its a wonderful idea. As for my being an idiot, the jury is still out on that one. :) I know that this is your way to motivate others into doing for themselves. There are better ways to do this, but you are you and I am what I am. :) Anyway, thanks for the motivation. :) -eric On Jul 3, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Theo de Raadt wrote: >> Still, FUSE is a wonderful idea. It certainly would make OpenBSD >> more versatile (and even allow it to wend its way further into both >> the user and corporate market segments. > > So we should enable it right now, today, when it is brand new code? > > Skip the testing period? Start from go, and immediately assume > all the potential downsides? > > Eric, nice try, but you are an idiot.
Re: Why I abandoned OpenBSD, and why you should too...
Inquiring minds want to know…. Please cite the sources for your assertions (including links to actual sources and documents). In all honesty, it sounds like you have a personal problem with the man himself. As for OpenBSD, I've found it to be a hell of a lot more secure than most of the other OS's. My only problem (and it seems none of the devs really understand this) is that I must have sighted assistance to install and initially configure the OS. Other than that 1 problem, the OS is pretty much usable for me via SSH Anyway, unless you provide factual sources, I seriously have doubts as to the veracity of your statements. If you can't prove your assertions, then I name you what you are: TROLL. -eric On Jul 4, 2013, at 8:56 PM, Thomas Jennings wrote: > Dear OpenBSD developers and users:
Re: Why I abandoned OpenBSD, and why you should too...
Sighted assistance. It simply means that I am blind (as in I wear prosthetic eyes and can't see a thing). I can use most of my equipment here with either some screen reader access or braille. Unfortunately, that can't be said for installation and first time configuration of OpenBSD (the man AfterBoot process). Only after SSH is enabled can I do anything with the machine. It certainly would be a lot better if OpenBSD supported a general CLI screen reader right from boot up. I do know that enough of the hardware gets detected to at least support this. Unfortunately, I am not a coder, so I can't really try this without some help. Running a compiler script (configure, make and make install) are easy enough from a CLI SSH session, but unless I can run a package immediately after the OS has completely booted and given me a login prompt, I am literally operating in the blind zone. This is what I mean by sighted assistance. So right now, if I can't do it myself, whats the point? -eric On Jul 4, 2013, at 10:09 PM, openda...@hushmail.com wrote: > On 5. juli 2013 at 4:59 AM, "eric oyen" wrote: >> >> My only problem (and it seems none of the devs really understand this) >> is that I must have sighted assistance to install and initially configure >> the OS. > > What do you mean sighted assistance? > > O.D.
new topic: blind support for OpenBSD.
what hardware? my laptop machine. also, its new enough that the only serial it has is USB (which, as far as I know, doesn't support sserial redirection). I also have a desktop machine and its new enough not to have any classic serial ports either. so, no redirection there either. and since there is no way for me to actually tell when it boots, getting to a login prompt and then redirecting the screen output is not entirely possible without someone sitting right there to tell me whats going on. This isn't anything like the old sparc pizza boxes where you could do this at the outset and actually have it work the first time. anyway, thats the rub for me. I like the OS, but this is the show stopper for me. -eric On Jul 6, 2013, at 5:49 PM, Alexander Hall wrote: >> > > Letting the installer redirect the console to com0 does not cut it? What hardware are we talking about? > > /Alexander
Re: new topic: blind support for OpenBSD.
I have tried windows XP with NVDA on that laptop. I have also tried Vinux on there as well. Windows did to me the same thing that OpenBSD does. I had to have someone else install it (ugh!). Vinux was a bit better as it allowed me to install using orca speech on a live dvd. The problem is that I want something a bit more secure and a lot more powerful (hello! OpenBSD) Windows is not useful for me and Vinux has some package and support issues going on right now. so, I want something that is secure (OpenBSD), stable (OpenBSD again) and perfect for the blind user (with the addition of speech/braille of course). With the exception of the last, OpenBSD would be perfect for me. Its stable, doesn't require a fancy graphical interface to run and has plenty of available ports that work. what more could a blind power computer user want? -eric > Have you tried other OS besides openbsd where everything worked during > install? If so, you can point that out to Alexander Hall who is one of those > who commit to the installer. > > On Sat, 6 Jul 2013 19:43:07 -0700 > eric oyen wrote: > >> what hardware? my laptop machine. also, its new enough that the only serial >> it >> has is USB (which, as far as I know, doesn't support sserial redirection). I >> also have a desktop machine and its new enough not to have any classic serial >> ports either. so, no redirection there either. >> and since there is no way for me to actually tell when it boots, getting to a >> login prompt and then redirecting the screen output is not entirely possible >> without someone sitting right there to tell me whats going on. >> >> This isn't anything like the old sparc pizza boxes where you could do this at >> the outset and actually have it work the first time. >> >> anyway, thats the rub for me. I like the OS, but this is the show stopper for >> me. >> >> -eric >> >> On Jul 6, 2013, at 5:49 PM, Alexander Hall wrote: >> >>>> >>> >>> Letting the installer redirect the console to com0 does not cut it? What >> hardware are we talking about? >>> >>> /Alexander >> > > > -- > Amit Kulkarni
Re: new topic: blind support for OpenBSD.
for X: GTK DM (gnome 3, fvwm or XFCE with ORCA (this for the X desktop) after installation. EMACSpeak for the CLI at system start. I am not sure what packages would be available that could send data to the USB port for a plug in braille display device. I may have to look around and see whats available. I did try speak up a long time ago (about 4 or 5 years back and it never worked they way it could have (thats the problem with trying to compile a linux package on BSD). It kept wanting a linux kernel module and the ugly hack I tried (piping its output through sox instead) resulted in a very unstable (and unworkable situation). one project called BRLTTY has some promise for the console (command line). it can be run as a background process and should be able to be piped via USB. THe project is here: BRLTTY - Official Home I think BRLTTY may use a pluggable module system in linux. If so, there may have to be changes made to get it working in BSD. EMACSpeak is another project (located here: http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/ ). There is also an excellent article on accessibility for the blind linux user from boot up to shut down here: http://jasonjgw.net/lca/ ). I hope this gives you some idea of what I am looking for. On Jul 6, 2013, at 10:09 PM, Johan Beisser wrote: > On Jul 6, 2013, at 21:53, Nick Holland wrote: > >> >> Feel free to take this off list with me if you prefer. >> > > I kind of hope you keep this on list, actually. While I'm not affected by the problem, I'm interested in the problem and solutions.
Re: new topic: blind support for OpenBSD.
OK, it appears that you haven't quite divined the issue here. I am a trained IT person (this means help desk work, system administration, repair and other things including installations). So far, I am able to install OS X without assistance. I do same for Linux (various flavors) and can use a small utility called "Winstaller" to install a full windows image to a machine. Now, some of the places that might hire me would expect me to be able to do all this on any OS. The only OS'es that I can't install with are the various flavors of BSD. So, this effectively limits my ability to perform the tasks that I may need to do. That, in turn, limits my ability to even become employed. My point here is this: I am not just an end user but also one who will have to deal with this in the workplace. Now, I know that the code has been around a long time and some of it may need to be tweaked to get it to conform with the BSD way of doing things. I am not a coder, so I can't just pick up a project and run with it. This is my delema. I need to work but if I end up in a place where the only OS they want installed is the one OS I can't do without assistance, I would be fired and someone who can see the screen would get the job. Now, some of the other things you mentioned make good sense and I will take that message as its meant. All I ask is that you consider larger issues here. -eric On Jul 7, 2013, at 4:40 AM, ropers wrote: > You could try buying a USB-to-serial adapter or two. Simpler ones > aren't that expensive. These generally have limitations for > technical/electrical reasons: E.g. some serial devices may expect to > be able to draw more juice than USB ports have. The gold standard > would be an optically isolated adapter with transient voltage > suppressors and an independent power supply – but using even a simple > one just for console redirection ought to work. Ought to. I haven't > actually tried this and I do not currently own a USB-to-serial > adapter. > > Anyway, you would stick one of these into your laptop and then connect > a null modem cable from that to another computer that has a serial > port. If your desktop computer doesn't have a serial port (WTF? I've > never heard of that.), then you could do the same thing in reverse > with another USB-to-serial adapter. Once you have the console > redirected to serial, you could use a terminal emulator in connection > with a screen reader to actually read that console output to you on > the other computer at the other end of the cable. > > To be really good for you, this might however require a change in the > installer: Maybe the "Change the default console to com0?" question > could be moved "up" or duplicated, i.e. it would be asked very early > on, pretty much as the first installer question, and there would take > effect immediately, and maybe beep as well when asked. This would be a > change to the installer (that I can't submit), but it oughtn't really > take up that much additional space on the boot floppy. > > I admit this is idle speculation from an almost good-for-nothing > hanger-on, but I thought I'd share these ideas; maybe they'll end up > actually helping you. > > I know this would be relying on you retrofitting legacy tech (RS232), > and I admit that the inclusion of full-on native screen reader and > Braille terminal support in some installer USB stick might be easier > for you, but in terms of the least effort overall to get something > that works, the console redirection might be easier overall, since > building and maintaining an all-singing, all-dancing USB stick > installer with all that good stuff included (and vetted for > vulnerabilities) would be a lot more additional work. > > Good luck! > ropers > > On 7 July 2013 04:43, eric oyen wrote: >> what hardware? my laptop machine. also, its new enough that the only serial >> it >> has is USB (which, as far as I know, doesn't support sserial redirection). I >> also have a desktop machine and its new enough not to have any classic serial >> ports either. so, no redirection there either. >> and since there is no way for me to actually tell when it boots, getting to a >> login prompt and then redirecting the screen output is not entirely possible >> without someone sitting right there to tell me whats going on. >> >> This isn't anything like the old sparc pizza boxes where you could do this at >> the outset and actually have it work the first time. >> >> anyway, thats the rub for me. I like the OS, but this is the show stopper for >> me. >> >> -eric >> >> On Jul 6, 2013, at 5:49 PM, Alexander Hall wrote: >> >>>> >>> >>> Letting the installer redirect the console to com0 does not cut it? What >> hardware are we talking about? >>> >>> /Alexander
Re: Boning the Troll
I wouldn't say he is a pro. It sounds more like some script kiddie with a better than normal script. in any case, its time to nip this in the bud before it becomes a full blown weed. -eric On Jul 11, 2013, at 10:22 AM, Jack Woehr wrote: > Notice that "Thomas" is also "Jash" of the "OpenBSD Doesn't Support 64-Bit > Intel" troll which turns out to be word-for-word yet another posting on the > previously cited troll blog site whose URL I will not reproduce here. > > Apparently we're dealing here with a dedicated (professional?) agent > provacateur.
Re: Sorry OpenBSD people, been a bit busy
well, Twitter does have its useful purposes. There is plenty of information on there of a technical nature. The major problem is just filtering out all the noise. Unfortunately, the idiots know about twitter and try to use it to their advantage. SOmetimes that works, and other times it backfires with very amusing results. -eric On Oct 7, 2013, at 6:32 AM, Gilles Cafedjian wrote: > Le 2013-10-07 12:30, Marko Cupać a écrit : > >> I don't see a reason why Twitter is given that much attention. It surely >> gets a lot of hype from all around, but I did not excpect it will get more >> from OpenBSD mailing lists. > > Yes, let the people spend their time and energy for nothing. It's > absolutely not interesting to spend yours on this, It's a kid game. I > appraciate much more the work you do all on awsome project like OpenBSD > and YYCIX :) > > Gilles Cafedjian.
Re: IRC
raging about it only makes you look defensive. If someone accuses you of lying, ask them to present real facts to back up the assertion. If they can't, then you don't have to do a thing (they are already made foolish enough). Besides, anyone who really knows you will dismiss the accusations without any further thought. I had to learn this lesson the hard way about 2 decades ago. anyway, NUFF said. On Oct 22, 2013, at 7:16 AM, tls wrote: > I have up until now relied on manpages and issues sent upstream though > users. This issue on the otherhand has ignited my passion. I have never > been more galvanized or stirred with passion until tonight. At this very > moment I am filled with rage, on the other hand I realize the fault is not > grasped within my accusers realm. Had it been I would be continually > working in silence and vocally supporting OpenBSD, however at this time > I've not only been accused as a liar amongst my peers but labeled as > someone that is not me. That I cannot or shall not tolerate. > > > That being said. I am sure han is reading this and rest assured I am not > this man you fingered me as to be. You see I raised and taught to have > integrety and honor with everything I do - although at time I deviate this > but this is far from the person you accuse me of being. > > You'll have to forgive me for raising shitstorm in #freenode but nothing on > this earth will ever incite such anger then someone calling me a liar.
Re: free powermacs for bsd dev
I am currently at the colorado center for the blind in littleton colorado. I fly back on december 19. I still have the place in phoenix though I might not be back there until may. just going back for christmas vacation. -eric twitter: n7zzt Facebook: eric.oyen Skype: technomage-hawke On Dec 1, 2012, at 6:06 PM, Super Bisquit wrote: > There is a blind OpenBSD developer on the Vinux mailing list. > I've added his email here. He's in Phoenix and was working on an > OpenBSD version for accessibility. > > On 12/1/12, tom armistead wrote: >> >> >> I have several no longer needed powerpc macs. I am giving them away to >> anyone who can use them for FreeBSD development. >> >> The catch is that they are in the Phoenix area and you would have to pick >> them up. I won't ship them. >> >> They are: >> >> G4 Tower (QuickSilver I think), 866Mhz, 384Meg RAM, 61 Gig HD (HD is >> flakey). >> >> G3 iMAC 500Mhz, 256Meg RAM, 20 Gig HD. >> >> G3 iMAC 500Mhz, 640Meg RAM, 30 Gig HD. >> >> No keyboards or mice with any of them... They all boot up. But if you >> take one, you probably should replace the HD to be safe. >> >> >> ___ >> freebsd-...@freebsd.org mailing list >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ppc >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-ppc-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Are there OpenBSD users who are not IT professionals?
There are actually rather a few of us. I have a fairly large IT skillset, but haven't had the opportunity to use them in some time. ALso, I am virtually the only blind user of OpenBSD that I know of (use a remote login as some tools won't work directly from console). I won't harp on that point (people are aware and leave it at that). There are lots of resources available for the starting user. the document "man afterbot" is very important if you wish to set up some ancillary services. There is also a fairly large ports tree for some items that might not have been packaged yet. THere are also plenty of people around here to ask questions of, though it is recommended that you do some legwork first. Just be aware, like any community, there are personalities here. SO don't take some of the comments personally. -eric On Nov 19, 2013, at 8:37 AM, za...@gmx.com wrote: > Hi > > I am new to OpenBSD. In fact, I am a total newbie here. After reading many > posts on this list, I formed the impression that all or most OpenBSD users > are high-end IT professionals. > I was wondering: are there OpenBSD users who are not so advanced in terms of > IT expertise? That is, who are simple computer *users*, not IT professionals? > I need to know this because I am starting feeling that, as an average > computer user, I might be out of place here. I was attracted to OpenBSD by > its security-by-default philosophy. Admittedly, I don't know much about > security and I would not be able to set the proper security settings on my > own, so I have decided to adopt OpenBSD and use it for simple day-to-day > tasks, as a desktop OS (as I would any popular Linux distribution). Does this > choice of mine, and its underlying reasoning, make sense? > Are there any significant drawbacks to my adoption of OpenBSD (such as > OpenBSD being too technical and too difficult, as compared, say, to Linux > distros)? > > Please, give me some advice. If OpenBSD is not for me, I would rather know it > sooner than later. > > Thanks > > Zaf
Re: upgrades no longer allow ftp for sets
geez! there are better technologies out here. SUre, if a technology works for 20 years, then go with it. However, there are loads faster ways (and a lot more secure too). Why not use bit torrent? Its fast, reliable and really only needs a half dozen seeds at various places across the net . THe problem with FTP is that you can have only so many connections before the bandwidth the host uses gets jammed. It also doesn't have very good resume functionality. If the guys at OpenBSD decide to change technologies, thats their choice. Besides, I would rather be able to get the distribution and ports trees at my full internet connection, not some slower speed limited by old technology. So, when are the rest of you lot going to get with the 21st century? -eric On Mar 29, 2014, at 1:47 AM, Craig R. Skinner wrote: > On 2014-03-26 Wed 16:06 PM |, Craig R. Skinner wrote: >> On 2014-03-25 Tue 18:34 PM |, Theo de Raadt wrote: >>> >>> The 5.5 release will support FTP releases, but after that we are >>> disabling FTP and thus pushing people to use HTTP installs. >>> >>> In this day and age, it is somewhat irresponsible for us to put >>> people into a situation where they might install new FTP servers on >>> the internet. We've known it is a dangerous protocol for over 20 >>> years. Use a HTTP server to serve the sets, please. >>> >> >> Would these pages summarise it? >> >> http://cr.yp.to/ftp/security.html >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2577 >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_Transfer_Protocol#Security >> http://daniel.haxx.se/docs/ftp-vs-http.html >> > > Eventually, will base ftpd be removed? > > e.g: telnetd, rshd, uucpd, rmail,...
Re: Narcicism?
like any other population, we have our parrots, non-thinkers, OCD, Bi-polar, stupid or the otherwise normal. we also have more than a few extremely intelligent people. one thing I have noticed (because I also suffer from it) is that more intelligent you are, the worse your interpersonal skills tend to be. mow, I happen to be fairly intelligent (somewhere north of the upper 130's) , but I am not so far above the normals that I can't understand them. I have known people so intelligent that they have virtually no understanding of how their fellow human beings work (and I can understand that position as well). the point I am hoping to make is that we all have our quirks, behavioral problems and skills (and that is fine by me). all that is needed is a little understanding and a very thick skin. -eric On Dec 1, 2011, at 12:28 AM, John Tate wrote: > I think I've found a bug in the OpenBSD crowd. They bug the hell out of me > and my little mistakes. > > I am not talking about people who actually have a solution, but I can't > seem to ask anything on this list without parrots coming along picking on > me. I think some people just hang out here because it's the most anal bunch > of hackers ever, in recorded history. What are your experiences? > > Is it true that occasionally we attract people who either love bullying or > are just lazy and pretending to be one of the clever? > > It just figures some of these people sit on the list, and email you poorly > researched crap with no answers contain. > > If you hate a question, it truly doesn't belong, bug me. > > But if you just can't answer a question, ignore it. > > John Tate. > > Note: Yes, it's not my list. > > -- > www.johntate.org
Re: Narcicism?
so true. on another note, I recently had some help getting linux up and working on a macbook g3 )lombard) but ran into some problems with the dubs interprocess communications system. I was wondering if ORCA (a python based screenreader for the blind on the gnome desktop environment) would work in X on openbsd. I may also have to set up an OpenBSD vm with ssh ready to go so I can run the setup from a terminal. I might even check into using that same G3 as a testbed. thoughts? -eric On Dec 1, 2011, at 4:03 PM, Richard Thornton wrote: > I have known geniuses who were computer illiterate. > > On Dec 1, 2011 5:58 PM, "Eric Oyen" wrote: > like any other population, we have our parrots, non-thinkers, OCD, Bi-polar, > stupid or the otherwise normal. we also have more than a few extremely > intelligent people. > > one thing I have noticed (because I also suffer from it) is that more > intelligent you are, the worse your interpersonal skills tend to be. mow, I > happen to be fairly intelligent (somewhere north of the upper 130's) , but I > am not so far above the normals that I can't understand them. I have known > people so intelligent that they have virtually no understanding of how their > fellow human beings work (and I can understand that position as well). > > the point I am hoping to make is that we all have our quirks, behavioral > problems and skills (and that is fine by me). all that is needed is a little > understanding and a very thick skin. > > -eric > > On Dec 1, 2011, at 12:28 AM, John Tate wrote: > > > I think I've found a bug in the OpenBSD crowd. They bug the hell out of me > > and my little mistakes. > > > > I am not talking about people who actually have a solution, but I can't > > seem to ask anything on this list without parrots coming along picking on > > me. I think some people just hang out here because it's the most anal bunch > > of hackers ever, in recorded history. What are your experiences? > > > > Is it true that occasionally we attract people who either love bullying or > > are just lazy and pretending to be one of the clever? > > > > It just figures some of these people sit on the list, and email you poorly > > researched crap with no answers contain. > > > > If you hate a question, it truly doesn't belong, bug me. > > > > But if you just can't answer a question, ignore it. > > > > John Tate. > > > > Note: Yes, it's not my list. > > > > -- > > www.johntate.org
Re: Narcicism?
easy there pardoner! :) I think he was pointing out my spelling error in jest. anyway, go easy on him as he probably didn't know (and I make it a point not to call attention to my disability, except where it becomes necessary). so, how is school going? -eric On Dec 5, 2011, at 2:04 PM, Super Biscuit wrote: > Mr. Eric Oyen is blind. He cannot see the keyboard and makes occasional mistakes. Had you ever read or subscribed to the OpenBSD powerpc mailing lists, you would know this.
Re: Narcicism?
I am only using openbsd in a hobbyist fashion right now. once I get it setup in a vm, it becomes easy to deal with via ssh. what I wouldn't mind is a desktop that can work with a screenreader. right now, I have had to shelve that and fight an opensuse install that refuses to be accessible, even given the right dependencies (one would think novell would make a more robust production ready OS). anyway... life goes on. -eric On Dec 5, 2011, at 11:53 PM, Tomas Bodzar wrote: > On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 4:13 AM, Eric Oyen wrote: >> easy there pardoner! :) >> >> I think he was pointing out my spelling error in jest. >> anyway, go easy on him as he probably didn't know (and I make it a point not >> to call attention to my disability, except where it becomes necessary). > > Will be very off topic, but if you're using OpenBSD for your > school/work don't you think that it will be fine post for undeadly.org > about your stuff? Not sure how much apps is available in OpenBSD for > people with some disability. > > Thx > >> >> so, how is school going? >> >> -eric >> On Dec 5, 2011, at 2:04 PM, Super Biscuit wrote: >> >>> Mr. Eric Oyen is blind. He cannot see the keyboard and makes occasional >> mistakes. Had you ever read or subscribed to the OpenBSD powerpc mailing >> lists, you would know this.
using ssh to forward the install console
hello group. I have an interesting (and fairly technical) question. the question is: how can I forward the install screen via ssh to another machine on my network? I ask this because I didn't see any specific instructions that applied. my issue right now is that I need a sighted assistant to read me the screen and help with installing the base system (and setting up ssh). I would like to run the install like from a serial port output (like the old spark pizza boxes) but none of my current machines have a serial port to do this on. comments? suggestions? -eric
Re: using ssh to forward the install console
no kidding about the expensive part. a stand alone unit (designed for a pci-e or pci-x slot) can be generally more expensive than purchasing a server grade motherboard with an associated daughter board management device. Tyan microcomputer makes a reasonably priced MB with a separate daughter board (sold separately). my only issue is going to be getting the funds to do this. -eric On Dec 7, 2011, at 6:57 PM, Bryan wrote: > I have one, and no, it doesn't work. Not until after the system is > installed. > > The only option I think might hold promise (but it's gonna cost) is > one of those remote management cards. Sun had a LOM card that you > could SSH to, and then access a console from it... > > I think you can get one of those PC Weasel cards, but there really expensive. > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 19:16, Russell Garrison > wrote: >> On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 2:47 PM, Eric Oyen wrote: >>> hello group. >>> >>> I have an interesting (and fairly technical) question. >>> >>> the question is: how can I forward the install screen via ssh to another >>> machine on my network? I ask this because I didn't see any specific >>> instructions that applied. my issue right now is that I need a sighted >>> assistant to read me the screen and help with B installing the base system >> (and >>> setting up ssh). >>> >>> I would like to run the install like from a serial port output (like the >> old >>> spark pizza boxes) but none of my current machines have a serial port to > do >>> this on. >>> >>> comments? suggestions? >>> >>> -eric >>> >> >> Any possibility of using USB serial adapters on these systems? You may >> need to blind-type to the boot loader in order to get it up on the >> serial redirection with an attached keyboard, but as I recall that >> isn't a big issue for Eric. ;) Then you would just need a crossover to >> the other DTE port on a host running cu and ssh to handle the install. >> We would do a similar thing with our v210's except they had built-in >> serial.
Re: using ssh to forward the install console
ok, that is some new info I didn't have. it is going to have to wait for a few months though as I have no spare funds. still, though, it is still considerably than the $300+ I would have had to spend on a new MB/daughterboard, ram and cpu. -eric On Dec 8, 2011, at 12:19 AM, James Shupe wrote: > Depending on your application, an older HP DL140 or DL145 G3 may work. > They have iLo 100, which includes serial console redirection, and can be > had on Ebay for around a hundred bucks. They're still nice with dual > dual core Xeon or Opterons and up to 32Gb RAM. > > On Wed, 2011-12-07 at 21:54 -0700, Eric Oyen wrote: >> no kidding about the expensive part. a stand alone unit (designed for a pci-e >> or pci-x slot) can be generally more expensive than purchasing a server grade >> motherboard with an associated daughter board management device. Tyan >> microcomputer makes a reasonably priced MB with a separate daughter board >> (sold separately). my only issue is going to be getting the funds to do this. >> >> -eric >> >> On Dec 7, 2011, at 6:57 PM, Bryan wrote: >> >>> I have one, and no, it doesn't work. Not until after the system is >>> installed. >>> >>> The only option I think might hold promise (but it's gonna cost) is >>> one of those remote management cards. Sun had a LOM card that you >>> could SSH to, and then access a console from it... >>> >>> I think you can get one of those PC Weasel cards, but there really >> expensive. >>> >>> On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 19:16, Russell Garrison >>> wrote: >>>> On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 2:47 PM, Eric Oyen wrote: >>>>> hello group. >>>>> >>>>> I have an interesting (and fairly technical) question. >>>>> >>>>> the question is: how can I forward the install screen via ssh to another >>>>> machine on my network? I ask this because I didn't see any specific >>>>> instructions that applied. my issue right now is that I need a sighted >>>>> assistant to read me the screen and help with B installing the base >> system >>>> (and >>>>> setting up ssh). >>>>> >>>>> I would like to run the install like from a serial port output (like the >>>> old >>>>> spark pizza boxes) but none of my current machines have a serial port to >>> do >>>>> this on. >>>>> >>>>> comments? suggestions? >>>>> >>>>> -eric >>>>> >>>> >>>> Any possibility of using USB serial adapters on these systems? You may >>>> need to blind-type to the boot loader in order to get it up on the >>>> serial redirection with an attached keyboard, but as I recall that >>>> isn't a big issue for Eric. ;) Then you would just need a crossover to >>>> the other DTE port on a host running cu and ssh to handle the install. >>>> We would do a similar thing with our v210's except they had built-in >>>> serial. >> > > -- > James Shupe, OSRE > developer/ engineer > BSD/ Linux support & hosting > jsh...@osre.org | www.osre.org > O 9032530140 | F 9032530150 | M 9035223425
pointless rant... was: Re: Narcicism?
well, until *YOU* responded to it, it had pretty much died. also, not all in this thread was pointless. I did learn a few new things and managed to get some other (BSD related) questions answered. -eric On Dec 7, 2011, at 9:53 PM, Ariane van der Steldt wrote: > Just give up on this thread. It's a waste of my time and pointless discussions like this just mean people who do have something to contribute or who have a real question get drowned in noise like this thread. > > Each time I attempt to catch up on misc, it's threads like these that make me regret that attempt. Why didn't this thread die already? > -- > Ariane > > On Dec 4, 2011, at 9:03, John Tate wrote: > >> I should lie and make this statement smaller? There is nothing even that >> big about it. I don't know why I should leave anything other than the >> facts. It's your choice to guess my intentions for doing so. >> >> On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 2:43 AM, Rares Aioanei wrote: >> >>> On 12/01/2011 05:25 PM, John Tate wrote: >>> On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 7:20 PM, Scott McEachern wrote: I'm 24 years old. I was a Linux hacker since I was 13. I am a bit of a guru and do my own Kerberos and such on an all BSD/Linux network. OpenBSD and Debian Linux. I love OpenBSD, I'm a bit weird because I use bash. I can put up with being made fun of. At 13 I didn't just start learning Linux I started learning C++ as well. I failed to apprehend it properly at that age, but at an older age I relearned it well. I am the guru sort of guy, I know a hell of a lot but I'm still connecting it and in that sense still learning. >>> >>> You forgot to list modesty there as well, John. >>> >>> -- >>> Rares Aioanei >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> www.johntate.org
Re: using ssh to forward the install console
thanks for the info. I tried looking that up in google and got so many hits of a non-relivant nature that I gave up on it. -eric On Dec 8, 2011, at 1:27 AM, Stuart Henderson wrote: > On 2011-12-07, Eric Oyen wrote: >> hello group. >> >> I have an interesting (and fairly technical) question. >> >> the question is: how can I forward the install screen via ssh to another >> machine on my network? > > You could use yaifo, this is a framework to build a custom install kernel > which includes ssh. It needs initial setup with an authorized_keys file. > > There are several versions of yaifo, the most up-to-date is at > https://github.com/jedisct1/yaifo
Re: using ssh to forward the install console
Ben, that is what I am hoping to find. transplanting from one hardware set to another is definitely problematic. also, the idea of looking for a com board is not a bad one. those are considerably cheaper and may offer what I need. -eric On Dec 8, 2011, at 7:31 AM, Benny Lofgren wrote: > On 2011-12-07 20.47, Eric Oyen wrote: >> the question is: how can I forward the install screen via ssh to another >> machine on my network? I ask this because I didn't see any specific >> instructions that applied. my issue right now is that I need a sighted >> assistant to read me the screen and help with installing the base system (and >> setting up ssh). >> I would like to run the install like from a serial port output (like the old >> spark pizza boxes) but none of my current machines have a serial port to do >> this on. > > As others have noted, that's unfortunately not possible with the way the > system boots. Your best bet would probably be to grab a cheap PCI (or what > kind bus your system has) serial port board that's capable of running as > COM1 and then running the install from a serial port. > > Either that, or moving the root disk from your target machine to another, > running, system and doing the install in a virtual machine on that host. > You'd have to do a little leap of faith from then on of course, and hope > that it will boot properly when moved back to its original environment. > > You'd probably want to enlist the help from someone first in order to get > a dmesg from the system and check what network device(s) it has, so that > you can set up the correct network interfaces blindly in the virtual > environment (assuming it can't emulate that particular network hardware). > > > Regards, > /Benny > > -- > internetlabbet.se / work: +46 8 551 124 80 / "Words must > Benny Lofgren/ mobile: +46 70 718 11 90 / be weighed, >/ fax:+46 8 551 124 89/not counted." > /email: benny -at- internetlabbet.se
Re: using ssh to forward the install console
oh yeah. forgot about those. I had one on an old firewall box. unfortunately, it was the old ISA bus and all my current machines are pci-e. thanks for the reminder. -eric On Dec 10, 2011, at 10:15 PM, Corey wrote: > On 12/07/2011 01:47 PM, Eric Oyen wrote: >> hello group. >> >> I have an interesting (and fairly technical) question. >> >> the question is: how can I forward the install screen via ssh to another >> machine on my network? I ask this because I didn't see any specific >> instructions that applied. my issue right now is that I need a sighted >> assistant to read me the screen and help with installing the base system (and >> setting up ssh). >> >> I would like to run the install like from a serial port output (like the old >> spark pizza boxes) but none of my current machines have a serial port to do >> this on. >> >> comments? suggestions? >> >> -eric >> > If you don't require the serial console, maybe you can use an IP KVM appliance? > > They still cost some money, but the cheapest one I've found is on sale for $200 US right now: > > http://www.lantronix.com/it-management/kvm-over-ip/securelinx-spiderduo.html > > It's basically an embedded OS (Linux, probably) running on an ARM or something with a frame grabber for the video and USB and legacy keyboard and mouse ports. Gives you BIOS-level access to the box over what looks like a custom VNC implementation, and it can be tunneled over SSH. Most can also access a serial port, but that may be moot in this case if you have the video output. > > They're not perfect, but probably enough to get an install done. > > Corey
Re: Jan
that is sage advice for any of us. I, myself got more than a little help here and got some good suggestions (including some hardware I forgot about). I think next month, I will get a framegrabber device with built-in ethernet port and can also manage BIOS and PCU tasks). reading never hurts and it is never a dumb thing to ask questions, especially if you are getting confused with some of the more technical prose that can populate a man page. :) -eric On Dec 11, 2011, at 11:26 PM, Zeb Packard wrote: > John Tate, > > Consider living a life of service, instead of complaining that the > list has not helped you enough, try to figure out what you can do to > better serve the list. So, work more before hitting the list, don't > panic, give it a day or two. Read the archives and relevant man pages > always, then if necessary make your question to the list as concise > and accurate as possible, for people who might have the same problem > in the future. > > Zeb
OT: some news here
hello fellow BSD'ers. I recently got some good news. it seems that I have been accepted into a formal training program at the Colorado Center for the Blind. this is a year long stint with Independent living skills, mobility training and computer skills training (using Jaws and windows 7, though there are also side courses on some of the unix like environments). I am due to start late in january. Hopefully, I can also hit the local community college up there and get a certification while I am at it (such as a cisco cert or similar). I should have enough funds to get that add-on card that converts framegrabber output to an ssh session. that will give me the ability to be able to setup a machine from power-on to final OS configuration. By the end of this training, I should be ready to re-enter the workforce. thats my news. have some happy holidays. -eric
Re: [bsdmag.org] newsletter
looks like someone either got onto a spam list or their machine is infected... oh joy! On Jan 16, 2012, at 10:14 AM, Software Press wrote: > This is the confirmation email. To confirm your email address and to activate on our mailing list click the link:
Re: Shut up and Hack
the sound is quite good. not quite as hard as KMFDM can get, but a good tune for what most of us are. Some other good material would include Jefferson Airplane, Cream, Black Sabbath, Rush and Kiss. Btw, How did you ever get KMFDM to come on board with this? -eric On Mar 23, 2012, at 3:07 PM, Theo de Raadt wrote: > Today we are releasing one of the extra songs which can be found on > the 11-release celebration audio CD. KMFDM! > > It is called "Shut up and Hack", and you can find a description of > it at > http://www.openbsd.org/lyrics.html#audio_extra51 > > As well, the MP3 file: > http://www.openbsd.org/songs/songsh.mp3 > > and the or OGG file: > http://www.openbsd.org/songs/songsh.ogg > > This, and more, can be found on the audio CD... which you can buy > if you follow this link: > > https://https.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/order?CDA1=2&CDA2%2b=Add
Re: Shut up and Hack
ah. I see. :) anyway, sounds pretty good from here. I may have to set aside some funds next month, buy a package of the latest OpenBSD and also the cd mix. the only other thing I need to do is setup the scripting I will need to allow an unattended installation and software setup for the blind. anyway, good tunes. -eric On Mar 23, 2012, at 10:05 PM, Theo de Raadt wrote: >> Btw, How did you ever get KMFDM to come on board with this? > > Come on board, how? > > I think you are making an assumption. > > It is 100% original work, not involving KMFDM, but like their work. > > No AT&T in it, either.
Re: Hardware (firewall) recommendation
there is a project that you can install an embedded version of openbsd on. its called the routerboard project. no need for power sapping drives, big screens and all that junk. I don't have the site on hand, but it is out there. -eric On Apr 16, 2012, at 11:58 PM, Marcin wrote: > Hello, > > I am looking for a hardware recommendation for a new OpenBSD based > firewalls. So far I have been using IBM x336s, but they are slowly > approaching end of life. > > What I am after: > * 1U i386/amd64 server, > * 2 sockets, > * RAID 1 SAS/SATA controller (2 hard drives are enough) > * decent dual LAN onboard > * at least one/preferably two PCI-X slots to add one dual/couple of single > fibre network cards > * IPMI 2.0 with out of band management > > I am pushed towards buying from one of the big vendors (IBM/Dell/HP/?) as > one of the requirements is to have 24x7x4h or 24x7x8h support. > > Machines will be running pf, bgp, relayd (not necessarily all three on a > single unit), should handle about 200Mbit of traffic (30K-50K pps). > > I tried IBM x3550 few years back, but the dumb raid controller was not > supported then, not sure if it changed since. > > Thanks in advance, > -- > Marcin
a live cd/dvd?
hello everyone. I was thinking that if we had a live image (A full running system) with an installer, we could have easier installations for the blind (and others as well). Now, some systems have the ability to port the screen to a local serial port (these are getting rare in modern commodity systems) and there are a couple of screen device options that will allow either screen->console output or screen->network. these, however, are fairly expensive solutions. I even suggested this to an interviewer from the conference happening in canada today. Now, I do understand that making OpenBSD capable of this might entail a lot of development work. now, some linux projects (like OpenSUSE, Ubuntu and Vinux) can operate as a live dvd (and in the case of Vinux, even the installer is fully accessible) but OpenBSD isn't Linux. However, this type of installation system could prove to be very powerful as hardware detection and settings could be made before running the installation script. Oh, and Theo, I would understand if you find this idea a little far fetched. Still, all I request is that you and your team give it a look-see. I am still looking at using the custom scripting project to perform an install, but have run into a couple of snags dealing with some of the variables that need to be passed to the installer (I know, I know, read some more). anyway, take a look and see if this idea is doable. There are a lot of blind people like me that want something more secure than windows and easier to work. Let me know what you guys think. btw, as an afterthought, I should mention that I am using OpenBSD 5.0 with Speakup as the console screen reader. This system is my household firewall and internal DNS. -eric
Re: a live cd/dvd?
teaches me not to look at the website more often! /facepalm I never noticed these projects before. sometimes, being limited to braille or screen readers can be more than a little frustrating. thanks for the links though. I will give them a try and see what I can do with them. -eric On May 11, 2012, at 7:53 PM, Weldon Goree wrote: > On Fri, 2012-05-11 at 18:47 -0700, Eric Oyen wrote: > >> I was thinking that if we had a live image (A full running system) with an >> installer, we could have easier installations for the blind (and others as >> well). > > Like this one? > > http://livecd-openbsd.sourceforge.net/ > > Or, if you want a USB stick, > > http://liveusb-openbsd.sourceforge.net/ > > He hasn't released a 5.1 version yet (it's usually a month or so behind > the release), but there are instructions for doing so if you want one > and have a 5.1 installation somewhere. > > Weldon
Re: a live cd/dvd?
since when? h. let me think since about OpenBSD 4.2 or so. and yes, I still need some visual assistance when doing an install/upgrade. also, to answer another poster's question: I use speakup from a linux source package (with the proper line in sysctl.conf enabled for linux binaries. getting speakup to compile required that I also install a number of packages not currently in the ports tree. lets just say that it is a real headache. now, orca for X using XFCE works ok. it only requires the GTK dependencies, python 5, some misc dependencies (almost all of which can be found in the ports tree. still, I don't like using X as it can be a little less than intuitive for us blind users. still, given the number of access avenues we can use (serial port redirect, virtual framebuffer devices that can be remotely connected to, cheap sound devices and the like) a number of good possibilities can be taken advantage of. I have had chance to start trouble shooting the raw source code for speakup and I know what the headache it has: sloppy code and failed documentation. considering the time it takes to get that binary working, I am opting for a more hardware solution and get a network capable framegrabber device and run a lane cable from it to a dedicated lane port on my OS X machine. $234 will get me one next month. now, if there were a device/brain interface, then I could see the words in my braincase without the additional distractions of sound. still, it would be glorious to be able to interface in a way thought possible. I wish I could be able to plug right into my brain and show what it has been missing. as for my feat: I installed and hop it works.4.5 openbsd On May 12, 2012, at 2:58 AM, Andri wrote: > 2012/5/12 Eric Oyen > > > Oh, and Theo, I would understand if you find this idea a little far fetched. > > haha... "little far fetched"... Since when are u using OpenBSD? Reading misc@ ? > > Andri
Re: a live cd/dvd?
ok, thats a bunch of information. However, for me, its the same as rocket science as I am totally blind and would require sighted assistance just to get it to either install a network card, or port to USB/Serial. Unlike the rest of you, using a computer with little or no accessibility on boot-up is immeasurably harder. even porting to a braille display device is not straight forward. all I want is a way to make/execute a script to do the installation unattended or port to an interface that can be read with another machine with speech/braille already running. then again, it appears that it may be easier to get a $200 interface device that acts as the screen to the machine and outputs to either a network interface or a serial port. unfortunately, most blind folks cannot afford this, so having a stand-alone installer with speech or braille would be very helpful. -eric On May 13, 2012, at 8:14 AM, Geoff Steckel wrote: > [lots of text snipped] > I was looking at laptops recently. I took 2 linux CDs, an OpenBSD install CD, > and a USB stick with OpenBSD on it. > > I got a lot more useful information about hardware compatibility from > the OpenBSDs than the Linux CDs because OpenBSD didn't try to bring up > anything graphical at the beginning. > > The tools on the OpenBSD install disk were (just barely) sufficient > to do what I needed. I didn't use the stick because the USB ports on the > store systems weren't easily accessible. > > I've also rescued unbootable systems with the OpenBSD install disk. > > "Live CDs" take forever to boot and run because seeking on a CD is very slow. > The install CD came up a great deal faster because it didn't try to set up > a fancy environment. > > If one really wanted to make an OpenBSD live DVD, one might (this has *not* been tested): > > Install onto a clean disk with everything on one partition. > Add 2 entries to / (/mem_var, /mem_etc) > Add 3 entries to /dev for memory file systems. > Edit /etc/fstab to point /tmp, /var, and /etc to those. > Add some code to the beginning of /etc/rc to: > create the 3 memory file systems > mount /mem_etc and /mem_var > copy /etc to one and /var to another > unmount the copies > > Create a DVD with a boot sector from the above. > > Presumably one could write a script to do this procedure and apply it to any release. > > I don't intend to write such a script. Someone who wanted to do this would > need to know the purpose of /etc/rc and shell programming. > That person would not need to know any kernel internals. > All the necessary tools have sufficient manual pages. > > I'm quite sure I missed something. init should continue to read the buried > /etc/rc... or at least about 40 releases ago that's what would happen. > > This begs the questions of networking, setting up X, etc. > > This doesn't rate a FAQ entry. It does show "you can do this with the tools > supplied and it's not rocket science".
Re: a live cd/dvd?
Thanks. already looking into it. I may have to figure out how to include a screen reader to work in this. there are 2 ways: using ORCA in the Gnome desktop environment (or XFCE) or a console based screenreader (speakup works, but requires a lot of modifications to get it running). ORCA on an X desktop is a bit easier (I use it in Linux) and only requires an accessible GTK interface and python (there are a few other dependencies as well). anyway, its up to me to see if I can do this (though having help would certainly be appreciated). -eric On May 13, 2012, at 5:36 PM, hvom .org wrote: > Hi > > "LiveCD" on the unofficial openbsd : > > http://livecd-openbsd.sourceforge.net/ > > http://kaw.ath.cx/openbsd/?en/LiveCD > > > > 2012/5/12, Eric Oyen : >> hello everyone. >> >> I was thinking that if we had a live image (A full running system) with an >> installer, we could have easier installations for the blind (and others as >> well). Now, some systems have the ability to port the screen to a local >> serial >> port (these are getting rare in modern commodity systems) and there are a >> couple of screen device options that will allow either screen->console >> output >> or screen->network. these, however, are fairly expensive solutions. >> >> I even suggested this to an interviewer from the conference happening in >> canada today. Now, I do understand that making OpenBSD capable of this >> might >> entail a lot of development work. >> >> now, some linux projects (like OpenSUSE, Ubuntu and Vinux) can operate as a >> live dvd (and in the case of Vinux, even the installer is fully accessible) >> but OpenBSD isn't Linux. However, this type of installation system could >> prove >> to be very powerful as hardware detection and settings could be made before >> running the installation script. >> >> Oh, and Theo, I would understand if you find this idea a little far >> fetched. >> Still, all I request is that you and your team give it a look-see. I am >> still looking at using the custom scripting project to perform an install, >> but >> have run into a couple of snags dealing with some of the variables that >> need >> to be passed to the installer (I know, I know, read some more). >> >> anyway, take a look and see if this idea is doable. There are a lot of >> blind >> people like me that want something more secure than windows and easier to >> work. >> >> Let me know what you guys think. >> >> btw, as an afterthought, I should mention that I am using OpenBSD 5.0 with >> Speakup as the console screen reader. This system is my household firewall >> and >> internal DNS. >> >> -eric
Re: a live cd/dvd?
well, text only sites are fine, but hardly anyone codes that way anymore. a lot of modern websites use leveled headers, tables (mostly unlabeled), frames and content pop-overs. the last can be frustrating as the screen reader will not see those without being refreshed (in the case of voiceover, using VO-i to see all objects). dynamic content is, by far, the hardest to contend with. it causes the page to refresh frequently and will reset screen readers back to the top of the page. my suggestions for websites: 1. alt-tagged descriptions of all pictures and videos 2. labeled frames and tables 3. framed organization where stable links are in one frame and the contents that are called from those links get displayed in another frame (look at some of the linksys routers for web page examples of this) 4. accessible controls (pop-up buttons and the like) 5. advertisements (such as flash with associated links) in separate frames (can have multiple in a single frame) 6 the about content (about us, contact, copyright, Terms of Use, etc) located in a bottom frame 7. use audio captchas as well as visual ones (have a button to select which one). this way, you don't lock out print impaired individuals. those are some of the big suggestions. frames don't have to be used, but they do make organizing the web site a damned sight easier. -eric On May 14, 2012, at 6:28 AM, Kevin Chadwick wrote: > On Sun, 13 May 2012 18:17:10 -0700 > Eric Oyen wrote: > >> there are 2 ways: using ORCA in the Gnome >> desktop environment (or XFCE) or a console based screenreader > > I try to use alt text and reasonable ordering but for me to test my > websites with. Do you use particular browsers with Orca or screen > reader. At the moment, I just look at it in a text browser? > > Alt text is something that is sometimes suggested to be used on > everything to keep Google happy or help site ranking. I'm thinking > over-usage could be annoying where it's not actually required such as > putting keywords in place of something purely visual. > > Thanks, Kc
[SPAM]: Re: (no subject)
is it me or does there seem to be a lot more spam on the lists of late? -eric On Jul 26, 2012, at 9:36 AM, Jan Izary wrote: > Learn H0w T0 Earn M0ney 0nline N0w >
Re: Calomel.org
well, I am wondering what packages I can use to edit man pages. also, I may have to change how a man page would be laid out because my screen reader (both in linux and OS X) seem to have trouble handling the change in content when I navigate through a man page in a terminal session. There was a web page converter that would take man pages and convert them to web content. it required installing a specific package, starting a local web server and then typing in a URL bar in a web client the command: "man: ". I was never entirely able to get that to work on either OS X or linux. I may have to look for the same package in ports (once I remember its name). anyway, there are those of us out here willing to do the work, but would appreciate some preliminary documentation from DEVS as to what goes where. -eric On Jul 26, 2012, at 10:20 AM, bert wrote: > On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 04:43:10PM +0200, Peter Laufenberg wrote: The site can look butt-ugly (or wikimedia-bland) but needs a semi-official stamp of approval instead of blinking red THIS IS NOT AFFILIATED WITH OPENBSD.ORG!!! >>> >>> Set up the site, make it work. Approval will come. >> >> Other way around. I got better things to do than start a project obsd maintainers are waiting to see tank. >> >> -- p >> > > Or you can provide patches to the official documentation, either in OpenBSD > itself, or do the universe a favor and document the various softwares out > there that have little-to-no documentation and see if they're up to snuff. > > That said, the attitude you're displaying does no one any favors: nobody's > here to make you feel special; either you're willing to put in the work > or you aren't.
Re: Calomel.org
the web page server is for displaying them in a way my screen reader can handle. didn't you pay attention in my posting? I mentioned being blind. as for editing man pages using a text editor, frankly, that is a bit tedious as there is a lot of text attributes and other invisible "features" embedded in the man pages themselves. btw, for me, this is not a simple no step process. I doubt you understand the constraints I operate under here. So, I will just leave it at that anyway, I think this thread is going a bit far afield from its intended topic. -eric On Jul 26, 2012, at 11:34 AM, bert wrote: > On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 10:54:25AM -0700, Eric Oyen wrote: >> well, I am wondering what packages I can use to edit man pages. also, I may > > What's your favorite text editor? > >> have to change how a man page would be laid out because my screen reader (both >> in linux and OS X) seem to have trouble handling the change in content when I >> navigate through a man page in a terminal session. >> >> There was a web page converter that would take man pages and convert them to >> web content. it required installing a specific package, starting a local web >> server and then typing in a URL bar in a web client the command: "man: > page here>". I was never entirely able to get that to work on either OS X or >> linux. I may have to look for the same package in ports (once I remember its >> name). > > Why in the hell do you need a web browser to edit man pages? Why does > the world insist on 7 steps for a no-step process? > >> >> anyway, there are those of us out here willing to do the work, but would >> appreciate some preliminary documentation from DEVS as to what goes where. > > man roof
Re: Calomel.org
well, I can give that a whirl. you should hear how those text attributes sound in my screen reader. its much the same as trying to pick out an object at range among a bunch of moving scenery. the man piped through more scheme is the biggest part of the problem, especially on remote sessions. As an aside, I have tried looking at some man pages placed on the net. to say they are a model of readability given all the other links and associated crapola is anything but true. In some cases, its confusing to the point of not wanting to deal with. anyway, back to reading and thanks for some of the suggestions. -eric On Jul 26, 2012, at 12:14 PM, Ted Unangst wrote: > On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 10:54, Eric Oyen wrote: >> well, I am wondering what packages I can use to edit man pages. also, I may >> have to change how a man page would be laid out because my screen reader >> (both >> in linux and OS X) seem to have trouble handling the change in content when I >> navigate through a man page in a terminal session. > > man typically pipes the output through more (or less). But if you > plan to edit the page, you feed the input through mandoc. There are > several supported output formats, but the default is ascii text. One > thing to note is that the output renders bold text as > letter-backspace-letter, which looks really funny in a text editor, > but works ok for terminals and more. You probably want to read the > mandoc man page itself carefully, you may be able to build a better > interface to man pages if the man/more combo isn't good for you.
Re: [SPAM]: Re: (no subject)
yeah. Gmail is famous for that. It is also famous for the number of false positives. I will have to see if I can find a version of SpamAssasin to run locally here. the Mail.app application here on OS X has some filtering abilities, but they are woefully inadequate to the task. -eric On Jul 26, 2012, at 12:18 PM, Ted Unangst wrote: > On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 10:44, Eric Oyen wrote: >> is it me or does there seem to be a lot more spam on the lists of late? > > There's a spam filter, sometimes it works, sometimes not so much. You > should probably be running your own. > > As an aside, gmail's spam filter is great until it isn't.
editing man pages for the blind in mind [was: Re: Calomel.org]
well, its pretty good in a remote session. I tried installing an X screen reader from ports and was met with a number of unsatisfied dependencies. that was several months back and I am not sure that things have changed that much. ORCA is about the only screen reader that will work reliably, but getting it there is a massive load of work hunting down source packages that are not yet in the ports tree. I tried to get speakup running (by enabling Linux executables in Sysctl) but had problems with it wanting to load kernel modules (linux only). so, speakup is a dead end. ORCA is python based, so it has less of an issue. I seriously wish to have a console level screen reader that can startup after hardware detection is complete. one last item, the machine I am using to testbed this doesn't have a dedicated serial port (they no longer include those on commodity hardware anymore) so having the output routed there is out. there is a USB to serial converter, but it is rather expensive. I am not sure how supported that would be in OpenBSD (that is yet another project I have to hold off on until after I acquire my training up at the colorado center for the blind). one nice thing I like about OpenBSD is the ease of use that PF has. When properly commented, I can easily understand and edit the rules with nano )or ssh get it and edit it with textedit here on OS X which is easier). Anyway, thats my take on OpenBSD so far. I am still a few versions behind current. -eric On Jul 26, 2012, at 12:48 PM, Jack Woehr wrote: > Eric Oyen wrote: >> I mentioned being blind. > > So overall how is OBSD when one is a blind user? > > -- > Jack Woehr # "We commonly say we have no time when, > Box 51, Golden CO 80402 # of course, we have all that there is." > http://www.softwoehr.com # - James Mason, _The Art of Chess_, 1905
Re: editing man pages for the blind in mind [was: Re: Calomel.org]
yep. looks like I need to come up to current then. 4.7 is definitely a little out of date. I might have to set it up in a vmware session on the linux box and see if I can pipe the console to an internal serial port and read it with a common comm application. the X display would be a bit harder to deal with without some initial sighted assistance to get things up and running. I seriously wish I could get OpenBSD working with orca on my powerbook G3 Lombard. I had tried before with the help of another member on here (Super Biscuit) but ran into a few problems, mostly resulting from an issue with ALTIVEC, which isn't on that version of the PPC chipset). -eric On Jul 26, 2012, at 1:55 PM, Peter Hessler wrote: > Hi Eric > > We do seem to have orca in ports: > > Port: orca-3.4.2p0 > Path: x11/gnome/orca > > If this is not up to date, or doesn't work for you, please let us know. > > > On 2012 Jul 26 (Thu) at 13:23:27 -0700 (-0700), Eric Oyen wrote: > :well, > : > :its pretty good in a remote session. I tried installing an X screen reader > :from ports and was met with a number of unsatisfied dependencies. that was > :several months back and I am not sure that things have changed that much. ORCA > :is about the only screen reader that will work reliably, but getting it there > :is a massive load of work hunting down source packages that are not yet in the > :ports tree.
man page contents [was: Re: C******.org]
man, the format of that page is ugly to listen to. lots of back slashes. I noticed there didn't appear to be any line/returns in there (and that is something my screen reader doesn't make clear either). I will have to find an online version of the man page mentioned below. -eric On Jul 26, 2012, at 11:24 AM, Weldon Goree wrote: > On Thu, 2012-07-26 at 10:54 -0700, Eric Oyen wrote: >> well, I am wondering what packages I can use to edit man pages. > > The pages themselves are marked-up text; just use a text editor. Note > that OpenBSD doesn't use groff anymore to render them. Look at > mandoc(1) > mdoc(7) (the suggested format) > man(7) (the legacy format; you may run across it in older pages you're > editing) > > As an example, here's mdoc(7) in its text format, via cvsweb: > > http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/share/man/man7/mdoc.7?rev=1.93;cont ent-type=text%2Fplain > > That's what you would be editing. > > Weldon > > Weldon
Re: man page contents [was: Re: C******.org]
I use OpenOffice for editing html pages. this makes editing web pages remarkably easy for me. Believe me, editing raw html is a real pita. so, if I want to properly edit a man page, I need to use something that supports DOC 7? that wood be nice to have on my OS X system. Here's a really funny point. I have been getting told that command line systems are obsolete and that everyone is going to the GUI (be it windows, OS X or some other). yet most of these systems still depend on some command line experience. Frankly, I would rather use a command line based system that is already security hardened (OpenBSD). that would leave out a lot of overhead. someone else mentioned using VI for a command line editor. thats definitely an oldie but still very powerful. I prefer the use of nano myself. its not as powerful but can do what I need it to do with a minimum of fuss. here are some links about blindness and using OpenBSD. this first one is from 2006 from the OpenBSD Journal: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=braille+screenreader+OpenBSD&source=we b&cd=1&ved=0CKIEEBYwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fundeadly.org%2Fcgi%3Faction%3Darticle %26sid%3D20061011142519&ei=dIYSUP3sDoyq8ASW94HwAg&usg=AFQjCNHFOzU5dYwJpVG4bPI ohqKaxdY1bg here is something from this list some time ago. this link indicates the trials and tribulations of making OpenBSD work with a braille display: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=braille+screenreader+OpenBSD&source=we b&cd=6&ved=0CKgEEBYwBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mentby.com%2FGroup%2Fopenbsd-misc %2Fa-live-cddvd.html&ei=dIYSUP3sDoyq8ASW94HwAg&usg=AFQjCNEmQO0H67h3CX888QJjuy h-qnyBjA a braille API that works in Linux and all flavors of BSD: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=braille+screenreader+OpenBSD&source=we b&cd=8&ved=0CKsEEBYwBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fhal.inria.fr%2Fdocs%2F00%2F13%2F59%2F 46%2FTEX%2Fthibault-hinderer-icta-2007.tex&ei=dIYSUP3sDoyq8ASW94HwAg&usg=AFQj CNExhilt0qbpLvZXKCLVxltZ8-6DqQ if I remember correctly, bratty is an included package (it may be in the ports tree, but I think its included in the primary install). Since I am still learning braille, it would be nice to be able to connect that display through the appropriate port and be able to install and configure without having to install other packages for a screen reader in the BSD.rd installer.I have recently acquired a BrailleX ELBA 40 cell display for this purpose. I am still a long way from being proficient, but being able to interface with a machine during all aspects of startup and installation would certainly be nice. anyway, reading a man page might be a lot easier with braille. however, since I don't know braille well enough, that is outside the point of the topic (for now). -eric On Jul 26, 2012, at 7:22 PM, Ted Unangst wrote: > On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 17:27, Eric Oyen wrote: >> man, >> the format of that page is ugly to listen to. lots of back slashes. I noticed >> there didn't appear to be any line/returns in there (and that is >> something my >> screen reader doesn't make clear either). > > It is a markup language. Is editing HTML any easier? If there's man > page content you'd like to see improved, diffs are appreciated but not > strictly necessary. I think someone will be able to patch things for > you if you provide improved text. But don't just say "the X man page > could be better", nobody's going to do anything in response to that.
Re: man page contents [was: Re: C******.org]
something like that. also, you might see a few responses from my alternate email (technomage.hawke@***.***). I need to make sure my send field is set correctly. g. I am not sure what application would be good for editing (or creating) man pages such that I don't need to worry about all of those codes. -eric On Jul 27, 2012, at 12:17 AM, Vadim Zhukov wrote: > Am I right you need ASCII-like output without extra formatting (e.g., terminal escape codes)? Something like: > > "xyz utility does the following: blah-blah. The options are as follows: -h to make you happy. -k to kill your ex-girl's kitten. -v to make sure everyone know what are you doing. See also manual page for cat in section one, manual page for kill in section one and for wall in section one." > > This could be accomplished by new backbend for mandoc, as I can understand. Other easy would be to teach your screen reader to mdoc(7) and man(7) formats. This will do it best as you'll have hyperlinks and other stuff the way you want. > > ... And for now going with MANPAGER and /etc/man.conf will be your best option, I think. > > 27.07.2012 4:33 пользователь "Eric Oyen" написал: > man, > the format of that page is ugly to listen to. lots of back slashes. I noticed > there didn't appear to be any line/returns in there (and that is something my > screen reader doesn't make clear either). > > I will have to find an online version of the man page mentioned below. > > -eric > > On Jul 26, 2012, at 11:24 AM, Weldon Goree wrote: > > > On Thu, 2012-07-26 at 10:54 -0700, Eric Oyen wrote: > >> well, I am wondering what packages I can use to edit man pages. > > > > The pages themselves are marked-up text; just use a text editor. Note > > that OpenBSD doesn't use groff anymore to render them. Look at > > mandoc(1) > > mdoc(7) (the suggested format) > > man(7) (the legacy format; you may run across it in older pages you're > > editing) > > > > As an example, here's mdoc(7) in its text format, via cvsweb: > > > > > http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/share/man/man7/mdoc.7?rev=1.93;cont > ent-type=text%2Fplain > > > > That's what you would be editing. > > > > Weldon > > > > Weldon
Re: man page contents [was: Re: C******.org]
I tried the copy link option in the context menu for Safari. It should have given the direct link but I got that instead. sometimes, being blind can be a real Pain in the backside. I hope that was a text based pdf. the pdf app I use here (Safari) will spit a blank page at me in voiceover if its graphical. thanks for shortening those links for me. also, I corrected my email so that it should send from here in the future. -eric On Jul 27, 2012, at 8:25 AM, ropers wrote: > On 27 July 2012 14:50, Eric Oyen wrote: >> a braille API that works in Linux and all flavors of BSD: > The google links that you're quoted above seem quite unwieldy here, > though maybe you just ended up sending those due to limitations of > your environment and/or (assistive) tools. Stripped from all the > unwieldy google stuff, this particular link becomes: > > http://hal.inria.fr/docs/00/13/59/46/TEX/thibault-hinderer-icta-2007.tex > > I found that uncomfortable to read, especially as a pampered sighted > person used to pretty-printed output. I however had problems > converting it to anything I would consider "pretty"; I found that it > depended on this class file: > > http://hal.inria.fr/docs/00/13/59/46/TEX/IEEEconf.cls > > Even with that, I didn't quite manage with OpenBSD (there seems to be > no pdftex/pdflatex 386 port). Using my Ubuntu box, I converted the > above tex file to a PDF, which I've taken the liberty to put here: > http://ompldr.org/vZXcxYg (How are PDF files for you? Do your screen > readers deem them edible?) > > regards, > Ian
Re: man page contents [was: Re: C******.org]
h! that explains a lot. now I know where to go. :) On Jul 27, 2012, at 8:38 AM, Ted Unangst wrote: > On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 15:27, ropers wrote: >> On 27 July 2012 14:50, Eric Oyen wrote: >>> I need to use something that supports DOC 7? >> >> What is DOC 7? Do you mean the Microsoft Office 97 binary .doc file format? > > mdoc. I think his screen reader doesn't even read man references so > well. > > Eric, where you probably read doc 7, it's actually m d o c left > parenthesis 7 right parenthesis. man page references typically > include the section number as a clue it's a man page.
Re: man page contents [was: Re: C******.org]
well, the PDF appears to be very readable in Safari. This is a pleasant surprise indeed. I have run across some PDF files doing a google search that were nothing but a series of JPG images (containing text) which locked me out of viewing them without an OCR tool. My opinion is that if anyone embeds a graphic in a PDF, that it should be describable and parsed from the text content. there is already a standard in HTML to do just this (and it wouldn't be all that hard to implement in a PDF. h. that may be another method of viewing a man page, converting it to a text based PDF. that is something to consider. -eric On Jul 27, 2012, at 9:14 AM, Dennis Davis wrote: > On Fri, 27 Jul 2012, ropers wrote: > >> From: ropers >> To: Eric Oyen >> Cc: misc >> Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 16:25:14 >> Subject: Re: man page contents [was: Re: C**.org] > > ... > >> Even with that, I didn't quite manage with OpenBSD (there seems to >> be no pdftex/pdflatex 386 port). Using my Ubuntu box, I converted >> the above tex file to a PDF, which I've taken the liberty to put >> here: http://ompldr.org/vZXcxYg (How are PDF files for you? Do >> your screen readers deem them edible?) > > I certainly have pdftex & pdflatex on my 5.1 i386 boxes. I suspect > they were installed as part of the texlive_base-2011p3.tgz package. > -- > Dennis Davis, BUCS, University of Bath, Bath, BA2 7AY, UK > d.h.da...@bath.ac.uk Phone: +44 1225 386101
[www.openbsd.org] faster machines and scareware
a lot of people get sucked into the scareware (al la cleanmypc, macdefender, etc.). most of them don't understand (or want to) how their machines operate. to them, its a black box. Usually, they just install anything that sounds zippy to them and then end up spending lots of money to get back to where they were. Even Mac users aren't amune to this (though there is a much smaller percentage of dumb mac users than windows). One of the advantages to OpenBSD (and other unix like systems) is there are few pieces of malware floating around out there. Thanks, in large part, to Theo and his development team, we are blessed with one of the most secure operating systems possible (outside of the very occasional exploit or dumb user mistakes) because of this, I would rather burn 300 watts/hour running a firewall machine that I have total control over than one of those cheap commodity router devices (the ones you can get at wal-mart or best buy). btw, I hope no one minds if I plug OpenBSD's website in the subject. this is a method of trying to get the site back up to better rankings in google. -eric On Jul 27, 2012, at 2:20 PM, Ted Unangst wrote: > On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 22:51, mxb wrote: >> On Jul 27, 2012, at 8:41 PM, Juan Francisco Cantero Hurtado wrote: >> >>> Calomel is ranked 2 on google >> >> >> There is must be a reason why this kind of sites exists. >> Ppl whom take care of www.openbsd.org documentation/FAQ maybe have to take a >> look and pinpoint what is missing? >> For some reason ppl refer to those sites than openbsd.org. > > Because people want their computer to be more faster. If the FAQ had > a section on more faster, people would still search for a site to make > their computer be more more fasterer.
[www.openbsd.org] Re: man pages with screen reader
JC, thanks for the information. certainly food for thought. its too bad there is no way to convert back from html. that would make life a lot easier for some of us who can code there (not me). still, having options for conversion from the new man format to css, html, pdf and others is very nice indeed. the nice thing about a properly formatted pdf is that I can use a number of very accessible programs to read it. give me a year and I should also know braille sufficiently to make reading man pages a bit easier (although I would still prefer a more usable format for editing, etc. I hope no one minds that I shamelessly plug the OpenBSD site in the subject line. this should allow word in the search engines to better reflect a useful project such as this. -eric On Jul 28, 2012, at 1:32 AM, J.C. Roberts wrote: > Hi Eric, > I noticed your comments and questions on misc@openbsd regarding access > for the blind when reading and editing man pages through a screen > reader. For just reading man pages at a terminal, converting into pure > text will most likely help you, and it could be very useful when > working on remote systems via ssh. The command to get the plain text of > a man page is: > > $ man man_page_name | col -bx | less > > Where the "man_page_name" is replaced by the name of the manual you > want. The trick is to use the col command to strip out the unwanted > stuff like the character sequences indicating bold, italics, color and > similar. This will work on most UNIX systems. > > I'm not sure if the pipe to less is needed, since you might be > able to pipe the output directly into your screen reader when working > locally or running X forwarding with audio on the remote system. Also, > I should mention that the default behavior of the man command in the > above is equivalent to using the -c flag with the man command such > as "man -c man_page_name" since the output is to a pipe rather than a > terminal. This simply by passes the default pager more or less. > > That was the worst pun I've ever written. :) > > To be clear, when the man command outputting to a pipe rather than a > terminal, the default pager is by passed regardless if you're using the > more command or the less command as your default pager. This may not be > the case on all UNIX systems, so you might need to use the -c flag or > equivalent on some systems. > > When you're on OpenBSD or any system with mandoc available, another > way to output as plain text is: > > $ mandoc -Tascii man_page_name | col -bx | less > > When converting to plain text, you lose the visual hints such as bold, > italics, colors, and indentation based grouping. Depending on the > screen reader you use and how you have it configured, this may or may > not make a difference to you. If you'd prefer how html is read, then > converting to html is easy with mandoc. It can convert man pages to CSS1 > and HTML-4.01 compliant output, or alternatively, to CSS1 and XHTML-1.0 > output, depending on the argument used with the -T flag. > > If indentation is helpful to you in some way, be sure to check out the > "tree" argument of the -T flag in mandoc. > > I don't have much personal experience using modern screen readers or > magnifiers, but I've set them up in the past on microsoft windows for > family friends. Within limitations, I can see fairly well and my > personal vision problems are somewhat convoluted. I'm overly sensitive > to light, so it's only a disadvantage most of the time, but at other > times, like at night, it can actually be an advantage. > > The new mdoc format is a markup language. the same is true for the > original man format, see "man 7 man". Unlike html, both the mdoc and > old man formats are designed to be parsed and converted in many > different ways by many different programs. You know this already since > you know it's possible to convert man pages into html and read them in > a web browser. The problem with doing converting to html is you're > unable to convert back into the required raw man or mdoc format. > > For example the mandoc command can output manual pages converted to > html, but it does not accept html as an input type, so any changes done > to the html are useless. > > Most people learn the markup syntax and work with the raw man or mdoc > markup format files in a text editor. I can imagine how the raw markup > format would be tough to read, or better said, hear, through a normally > configured screen reader. I know some screen readers are used for > coding, but I've never witnessed one in use by a programmer. It may or > may not be possible to teach the screen reader about the idiosyncrasies > and rules of the markup language to make hearing the raw format a bit > more bearable and useful. > > Whether seen or spoken, all markup languages are ugly, and the raw > markup formats used for manuals are some of the absolute worst. This is > especially true for the old style man pages based on roff, troff, groff > and friends. The new md
Re: [www.openbsd.org] faster machines and scareware
there is that. still, over the last 15 years or so, I have seen a vastly higher number of windows machines infected by "defective users". repairing those installations was always a nightmare (especially when the user wanted to retain all data). in all that time, I saw, at most, a handful of macs with an issue involving malware. Now that the iOS and OS X platforms are starting to acquire a majority of the market, I expect there to be a lot more problems (and also see a greater number of those defective users). anyway, the users are primarily responsible for their systems. if they can't handle it, the n they need to sell off the machine and start collecting books. until they do, I continue to make a small amount of money over their panic. -eric On Jul 28, 2012, at 2:56 AM, Florenz Kley wrote: > On 28 Jul 2012, at 00:03, Eric Oyen wrote: >> (though there is a much smaller percentage of dumb mac users than > windows). > > Bollocks. Attributes in large enough populations tend to follow the normal > distribution. There is a smaller number of Mac users overall, and therefore a > smaller number of mac idiots. Don't let that fool you into thinking the mac > users are smarter in general. They are not, trust me, I'm one. > > fl
Re: [www.openbsd.org] low foot print wm's
it may be drifting a bit. I like fvwm and xfce for their ability to interface well with ORCA screen reader. the nice thing about them is their low resources foot print. anyway, I think the scareware thread has died. -eric On Jul 28, 2012, at 7:27 AM, Wojciech Puchar wrote: >> The reason I often hear why people around me goes from Windows to OSX >> is often because they can't handle Windows and they think it's hard to >> do pretty much anything and they just want it to work so they abandon >> Microsoft for that reason. > but this is true in any software that hide it's internals over millions of icons wizards. Be it windows, Mac OS X or any GUI "desktop environment" under any unix. > > The only place i set up "desktop environment" is unix is X-terminal based setup, as users want to have it. > > personally i don't feel a need for any click-click style environment. On X11 i just need usable window manager. cwm is very good, i just heavily reconfigured fvwm2 because i've got used to this since 14 years. > > no window frames, titles, start menu, icons,,,... > > I JUST WANT TO RUN A PROGRAM i need. Nothing else. > > > > still this is off topic discussion i think.
Re: [www.openbsd.org] Re: man pages with screen reader
braille display devices are available. unfortunately, they often cost well into the mid thousands and most of us blind folks cannot afford that essential technology. as for driver support, that is still entirely up to the hardware vendor to provide either the API or communications protocols for that device. I have a BrailleX ELBA-40 here (40 column braille display). unfortunately, it does not work because of a battery failure. it can connect either through a wireless pcmcia card or via USB port. I acquired it on the used market for $950 and it took me nearly a year to pay it off. as for the braille interface drivers, most are pretty standard across linux and UNIX/BSD systems. -eric On Jul 28, 2012, at 10:15 AM, Wojciech Puchar wrote: >> give me a year and I should also know braille sufficiently to make reading man >> pages a bit easier (although I would still prefer a more usable format for >> editing, etc. > I fortunately have working eyes, but i fully understand blind people, and completely don't understand why there is still no "braile terminal" available. > > This (with classic unix software) would be IMHO golden solution for blind people. > > I mean no full screen but just a braile printer as terminal.
Re: [www.openbsd.org] Re: man pages with screen reader
the problem is that they are so expensive. in fact, anything that is marketed to the blind gets some cost boost because the manufacturers claim its a niche market (I don't call 26 million people a niche market). there is also the problem that these same manufacturers use government contracting as a primary source of their income, thus they charge the government as much as they can legally get away with. If I had the money, I would certainly be finding a way to manufacture braille displays using good quality materials and still keep the price down (automated assembly). given enough of either time or production levels, I could have enough units selling far below the current market rate. this would also allow me to have spare parts and repair contractors for local delivery. Believe me, I have taken apart some of the more recent models of braille displays and they are cheap built. there is no reason why the market is so over-inflated. anyway, enough of my rant. -eric On Jul 28, 2012, at 11:47 AM, Jack Woehr wrote: > Amit Kulkarni wrote: >>> completely don't understand why there is still no "braile terminal" >>> available. > > Especially since they were invented back in the 1980's (at the latest). I played with a prototype at a meeting > of the Forth Interest Group circa 1987. > > -- > Jack Woehr # "We commonly say we have no time when, > Box 51, Golden CO 80402 # of course, we have all that there is." > http://www.softwoehr.com # - James Mason, _The Art of Chess_, 1905
Re: [www.openbsd.org] Re: man pages with screen reader
oh yeah. thermoform paper. the problem is that any heat tended to permanently deform it. it did produce some nice sharp braille. the other thing which works well for storing long term braille (like an index card) is the plastic backing out of bacon packages. that stuff is heavy enough that braille will almost last longer than you do. the old steel perkiness brailler has been around since the late 1880's. they were manual units (no electrics were made until someone made the first computerized units back in the late 1980's). since then, the price point on these devices hanse't changed appreciably, even though manufacturing costs have gone down. this leads me to the conclusion that the price is being held artificially high in an effort to maximize the amount of funds that can be acquired via government contracts. that pretty much leaves out those on the lower economic rungs (which is slightly more than 90% of the blind population in the US). there are days when I seem to rant too much. -eric On Jul 28, 2012, at 2:41 PM, Wojciech Puchar wrote: >> Especially since they were invented back in the 1980's (at the latest). I played with a prototype at a meeting > > improvement could be done to be able to print on some special plastic "paper" that could be then at other end "ironed" out and recycled. > > I really feel sad that blind people, in XXI century, have to suffer by using "screen readers" or other strange things instead of just having TERM=dumb, and quickly read what's printed with fingers, and type commands. > > And performing as good as years ago unix pioneers using teletypes. > > Yes - full screen editors, mc etc.. are great but only if you have working eyes.
Re: [www.openbsd.org] Re: man pages with screen reader
ok. considering the design, I had originally thought it was from the late 19th century. my bad!. still, the thing was definitely over engineered. I can't honestly say the same thing about the newer, lighter plastic models. what I find disturbing is this: the newer plastic manual brailler is prone to break and wear out far sooner and it still costs more than the old steel framed all metal unit. it would be interesting to take one of those old steel units, make a couple of modifications (such as a serial interface and a 6 pin actuator as well as a carriage motor and turn one of these things into a low cost embosser. btw, an actual braille embosser (a monster braille printer) costs about $10K. now that I have strayed from the topic a bit, lets get back on it. converting man page format to ordinary text or even PDF or HTML seems easy enough (I had to use a command provided on here earlier to convert man doc(7) to a PDF and get it via sftp and read it locally. the PDF format was easy to deal with in my local PDF handler. I also have a braille I true type font installed here. so, if I chose to send it to another document for printing on a braille embosser, there wouldn't be any transcription errors. one additional benefit of the braille font, an ordinary person can't read it unless they know it by sight or have a translation table handy. thats cheap security on my mac, but its effective (except against a mac pro who knows exactly is in the menus that can set the font). now, I don't know if there is a braille virtual interface included with bsd.rd. if not, how hard would it be to compile one in? at least then, there would be another available method for someone like me to be able to install with little or no assistance (the first 2 being either a serial interface or a virtual frame grabber that has a built-in ssh server and network connection) -eric p. I hope I am not ranting too much. :) On Jul 29, 2012, at 9:50 AM, Wojciech Puchar wrote: > such a device, possibly redesigned in modern way+electronic that would automatically control it and you get braille tty. > > On Sun, 29 Jul 2012, ropers wrote: > >> On 29 July 2012 02:48, Eric Oyen wrote: >>> the old steel perkiness brailler >> >> For the record: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perkins_Brailler
Re: man pages with screen reader
well, the simple ASCII text isn't the problem. its the interface over which I am viewing it (ssh using vt200). every time I navigate up or down in a man file, the session redraws the screen and that forces the screen reader to read from the first line or simply read the last line (whichis the "--more:" at the bottom). that and some of the extended attributes (bold face, etc.) may not be read correctly by the screen reader on my end of the ssh session. text based PDF files usually hide these attributes (except where they have strictly a visual effect) and css or HTML presents such attributes visual only (unless I use a specific command to read the specific attribute). since most of these attributes are for formatting purposes, they usually get ignored by my screen reader when viewed as a css, html or PDF document. I just had a thought about subject lines. in my case, having the website of OpenBSD in there actually made it a lot easier for me to dump these mails into their own folder, and also bypass some of gmail's buggy spam handlers. of course, if I need to, I can drop the web address out of the subject line (it seems like it might create more noise if it remains). -eric On Jul 29, 2012, at 10:25 AM, Ingo Schwarze wrote: > Hi Eric, > > Eric Oyen wrote on Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 07:57:59AM -0700: > >> its too bad there is no way to convert back from html. > > That wouldn't be impossible to write; but it would be an awful > lot of work, probably at least two weeks of work for somebody > very familiar with the mandoc(1) internals like kristaps@ or > myself. > > The main reason not even to attempt to write that back-converter > is that i expect it would almost certainly not help you at all, > whereas much of the help we could give you could probably be put > together with a few minutes of work once we understand what exactly > the problems really are. Not all suggestions will be useful, > and trying them out and understanding them will almost certainly > take more than a few minutes of work on your part, but still... > > The crucial point for getting correct backwards conversion > would be to always have the right "class" attributes in every > HTML element. If you would edit the HTML code with some random > WYSIWYG editor, those attributes would almost certainly not get > added when adding new elements, would probably get lost when > changing existing elements, and i doubt that you could even hear > them in the first place. > > Besides, even if your HTML editor had a way to add the required > markup, you would still have to learn what markup is required. > That's just the same difficulty as learning real mdoc(7) syntax - > except that you would do the same in a different syntax than > everybody else, which is not likely to make getting help any easier. > >> that would make life a lot easier for some of us who can code >> there (not me). > > If you want to contribute to manuals, you really have to edit > mdoc(7) files. At least so far, i can't imagine any shortcut. > > So what you need to figure out is: > What do you need to read and edit the real mdoc(7) files, > directly? Like this one: > > http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/bin/cat/cat.1?rev=1.31;content-type =text%2Fplain > > Editing manuals means editing those, with a plain text editor, > and no editing anything else. > >> still, having options for conversion from the new man format to css, >> html, pdf and others is very nice indeed. the nice thing about a >> properly formatted pdf is that I can use a number of very >> accessible programs to read it. > > I'm still slightly confused that you can read a terribly complicated > format like PDF but a simple format like ASCII text causes problems. > Of course, use whatever works for you, i'm not arguing that! > But technically, it ought to be *MUCH* easier, several magnitudes > of difficulty lower, to make ASCII text accessible than to make PDF > accessible in whatever way required... > > [...] >> I hope no one minds that I shamelessly plug the OpenBSD site >> in the subject line. > > Oh please don't. > That conspiciously looks like cargo cult to me. > And even if it were effective, standard nettiquette is still > much more important (here: use concise, expressive subject lines). > > Whether or not Google lists openbsd.org is mostly irrelevant. > Whatever Google does is not a good reason to do anything > in a different way than in the sane way. > > Yours, > Ingo
Re: [www.openbsd.org] Re: man pages with screen reader
that I am not sure of. these embossers are used at places like the American Printing House for the Blind. considering how much material is printed in braille monthly, their maintenance is a bit expensive. these are not your small printer for home use. they are industrial sized units that print more than 10,000 pages a month in braille and they need servicing on as often a basis. 120 pound bond paper is rather hard on the print heads they use (and its the only stuff that will reasonably hold braille). -eric On Jul 29, 2012, at 2:56 PM, Jack Woehr wrote: > Eric Oyen wrote: >> btw, an >> actual braille embosser (a monster braille printer) costs about $10K. > > Hmm, sounds like an entrepreneurial opportunity making a cheaper unit. What's the input? Unicode? > > -- > Jack Woehr # "We commonly say we have no time when, > Box 51, Golden CO 80402 # of course, we have all that there is." > http://www.softwoehr.com # - James Mason, _The Art of Chess_, 1905
Re: [www.openbsd.org] Re: man pages with screen reader
they have. however, thermoform paper is actually more expensive than standard paper stock. also, the "thermo" brailler (embosser) isn't cheap either. now, there are small form factor varieties that will work on 3x5 sized sheets. those run about $500 and are good for labeling prescription bottles, canned food, etc. not exactly useful for full sized sheets. their bigger cousins are still only used by a printing house (where the cost per sheet can be minimized). -eric On Jul 29, 2012, at 7:13 PM, Jack Woehr wrote: > Eric Oyen wrote: >> 120 pound bond paper is rather hard on the print heads they use (and >> its the only stuff that will reasonably hold braille). > > Bond paper is traditional. Haven't they figured out a way to emboss thin sheets of polymer yet? > > -- > Jack Woehr # "We commonly say we have no time when, > Box 51, Golden CO 80402 # of course, we have all that there is." > http://www.softwoehr.com # - James Mason, _The Art of Chess_, 1905
Re:
I can't speak for the rest of you, but I think this thing should be put to bed now. -eric On Jul 30, 2012, at 11:35 AM, Hugo Osvaldo Barrera wrote: > On 2012-07-27 15:41, Juan Francisco Cantero Hurtado wrote: >> On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 05:36:38PM +1000, David Diggles wrote: >>> The calomel phenomenon is fascinating! >>> >>> I was calomeled. >>> >>> Those who have been calomeled have done the following:
Re: query bug reports?
I happen to be one of the end users of OpenBSD and read this (and the other related) list and I have not seen much in the way of the behavior you are describing. Granted, Theo has his preferred methods when it comes to developing and reviewing code for the OS and utilities. The only response I have seen Theo give to a question or request outside his area of expertise is "not supported". This leaves the person asking the question (or developing a project)but one option: attempt it themselves. now, as for bug reports, there are number of recommended tools. there is also a recommended format for the reports. depending on the project, the devs might recommend a particular tool and it is usually a good idea to follow those recommendations (cuts down on confusing the devs and others participating in the project in question). there you have from an end user: the right tools for the right job. believe me, I have had to learn this lesson THE HARD WAY. -Eric On Oct 13, 2011, at 6:38 PM, Jeremie Courreges-Anglas wrote: >> Jeremie Courreges-Anglas response/behaviour is one typical thing what >> totally drains our (users) engagement. We hardly not dare to write a >> single line because there is a little but disturbing kind of people >> that destroys for all others. One little suggestion, hint or anything >> that's unorthodox in the spirit of OpenBSD and you get bashed and put >> in the corner of shame. > > some little details: > 1) yes, I'm that kind of crappy user that doesn't test any diff and doesn't > help the OpenBSD community to grow further. blah > 2) yes, I do like using git (why? not sure...trends?) ; would I prefer the > OpenBSD devs to use it? No. I prefer the OpenBSD "team" to use tools that > are under control instead of a shitty js-full web interface such as > github's (please don't try to learn me that one's not forced to use > github's web interface, I really don't care). > 3) if you want to send a diff, you can do it, and it doesn't take much time. > Just do it: you won't know about it, but I'll feel better taking a look > at your diff than reading you whining about "why doesn't foo use github?". > 4) i'm not afraid to get bashed if I say crap / if I provide a wrong diff.
Re: Security List
I haven't been around here long enough, but having a list, even if it isn't currently used a lot isn't a bad thing. The fact that there isn't a lot of security holes in OpenBSD is a testament to how good a job the devs are doing. unfortunately, there are louts on every mailing list (even here). It is unfortunate but it is also a fact of life. The impression I am getting is that we should all do a little of the legwork ourselves BEFORE we bug the mailing lists about it. if it is beyond the level of skill that the person reporting the problem, then by all means, a little help is certainly welcome. its like me, I am getting some help trying to resolve an orca build problem on the PPC branch but it appears that it may be a hardware related issue. not much I can do about that right now. I do have a working VINUX installation on that powerbook G3 and have developed a work around for the dubs bug that makes the machine unresponsive after a random amount of time. I wish I could say the same thing for OpenBSD, but I am not yet familiar enough with its internal working to be more than a hobbyist user at best. btw, the person who was offering me as much help as he did was Super Bisquit. He also has an identical machine and encountered the exact same issues. the machine: a powerbook G3 (750 based CPU). He was going to help me with a freeBSD installation, but that is a far more advanced installation than I am willing to work on right now. For his help, I wish to express my great appreciation for his working with me. I need to dig up a spare HDD so I can keep my current install intact. oh yeah. the issues on installing or compiling for ports both involved random halts of the ATA bus or the random stopping of bm0 (the ethernet interface). the only recovery possible from either state involved a hard reboot and a pram reset. :( Nice OS, but I think the powerbook is just old enough to have some issues. -Eric On Feb 7, 2011, at 1:41 PM, patric conant wrote: > The last time someone brought up that there could be a bug in that the > system did not work in the manner in which it was documented on the website, > I believe something mature and well-thought-out like, "Oh, yeah, shut up." > was the response. > > On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 11:51 AM, woolsherpahat wrote: > >>> only openbsd src & X. >>> >>> we suck in actually using it. security errata are so rare that there >>> isn't really an established procedure, so don't rely on it too much. >> >> I am sure this has been suggested before, but why hasn't the security >> list been removed from list of mailing lists at >> http://www.openbsd.org/mail.html? It seems a little disingenuous to me >> to present announce-security like it is a good source of current >> security issues when it is in fact not. >> >> Speaking of, what is a good place to track any security related issues >> in Release of Stable? I have been using >> http://www.openbsd.org/errata.html. >> >> --Kevin
