Re: [issues] Women and the Open Source Community (was screenshots)
On Fri, 22 Oct 1999, Nils Philippsen wrote: > On Thu, 21 Oct 1999, ae wrote: > > > Explaining sexism to a male is really difficult, though gay/bi men will > > sometimes understand if they are gorgeous. > > Objection, Your Honours! Some males grasp sexism and some don't, it's just > the same as with females (though I think more females than males will > understand sexism because a female person more likely falls a victim to > it). Some people might consider your statement a rather sexist one, don't > you think? Just because a relevant share of males are chauvinist pigs, > this doesn't mean that this is true for all males. I don't think she meant that it is hard to explain sexism to male chauvinist pigs. She said it is hard to explain sexism to men. You are the one that equated men = male chauvinist pigs. Her statement contained that sentiment neither explicitly nor in subtext. I have found it plenty hard to explain sexism to men who are in no way male chauvinist pigs, and I believe that is what ae was trying to express. Cat /././././././././././././././././././ The plural of anecdote is not data. \.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: Fw: [issues] Screenshots - on a lighter note
> > I'm really starting to wonder if people are just being WAY too thin > skinned. > > Do any of you honestly believe that these people (be they men OR women) > are putting babes in their screenshots in order to alienate the women in > the linux community? Do you believe they are doing it for shock value? To > get a rise out of you? Actually, no, I don't believe that they are doing it for shock value or to get a rise out of me. If that were the case, it would bespeak an understanding that those types of images CAN be construed as having shock value or that there is some reason they would get a rise out of anyone. That would be a good understanding. The thing I don't like is the UN-thinking nature of the postings. I understand from your posts that you have a pro-porn perspective, which is certainly a fine position to take. However, I feel a distinctly unfriendly atmosphere if I walk into a place that has girlie pictures all over the walls. I do not think that most places (unless clearly demarcated) that are inviting to both males and females generally have adult pictures plastered up. Cat /././././././././././././././././././ The plural of anecdote is not data. \.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: Fw: [issues] Screenshots - on a lighter note
> As someone earlier pointed out, the images that people are complaining > about are not "adult" images. Adult images implies nudity, and possibly > sexual act portrayal. Mostly just the suggestion of sexual acts. The > images we frequently see on theme screenshots are of movie stars, models > and comic book characters. Most of them I have easily identified as coming > from supermarket magazines and mainstream comics. They are sexy, yes, but > not quite what classifies as adult. My impression was different (and erroneous, from your description). I was specifically referring to those themes that contain adult images -- for reference, consider the two links Vinnie posted. I considered the first link with the girl in lingerie lying on her side to be adult, whereas the picture of the girl in the bikini was not. > > The difference between walking into a room with Adult images on the walls, > and images of actors/models is WAY different in my eyes. I agree with you. It depends of course on how the actors/models are portrayed. >Still, the former > would feel inviting to me, for both sexes. I guess I will chalk that up to > the number of gay/bi friends I have. Its never occurred to me that the > images themselves represented an unwelcome atmosphere. Its always been the > people who put the images up, and their attitude towards other people that > tells me I'm not wanted :) I don't know. Certainly there are times and places when the images themselves do not represent an unwelcome atmosphere. For instance, I go to an industrial/fetish club quite often and there is all sorts of stuff like that there. It does not bother me nor threaten me -- the images have a context in which they are welcome and expected. In many of the themes mentioned, the pictures do not have a context in which they are expected. To me, that's where the assumptions about your audience come in. Cat /././././././././././././././././././ The plural of anecdote is not data. \.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Women and the Open Source Community (was screenshots)
On Sat, 23 Oct 1999, Nils Philippsen wrote: > On Thu, 21 Oct 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Nils said: > > > > >Objection, Your Honours! Some males grasp sexism and some don't, > > ...snip... > > > > >it). Some people might consider your statement a rather sexist one, > > >don't you think? Just because a relevant share of males are > > chauvinist pigs, this doesn't mean that this is true for all males. > > > > If you are a non-sexist (male or female) great! > > > > I hope you will also speak out whenever you hear males being sexist - > > In general yes. Sometimes (depends on if the person put down can handle it > by herself), I just lean back, watch the battle and applaud afterwards :-) > To be serious: not every person wants to get unsolicited assistance in > such cases. > I would personally find it more important for men to object to the sexism that takes place out of women's earshot. I can defend myself, true, and I would prefer to do so rather than have some guy jump in and do it for me (in most cases). The place to combat it would be behind the scenes. If there weren't sexism out of earshot, then people wouldn't have to watch what they say, or be careful when members of the opposite sex were actually around, wouldn't you agree? I feel it important to bring up the subject of sexism when my female friends send around jokes that are demeaning to men. I think that is more effective then just doing it in public -- you can then be viewed as just jumping to someone's defense to score points or whatever, and your statements (no matter how true to your personal beliefs) can be easily viewed in that context to diminish them. However, pointing it out when there is no one of the opposite sex present makes it clear that the views are your own, and you are willing to stand up for them even when there is no perceived stake in it. Cat /././././././././././././././././././ The plural of anecdote is not data. \.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: Fw: [issues] Screenshots - on a lighter note
On Sat, 23 Oct 1999, Brendan/Coolian wrote: > > >unfriendly atmosphere if I walk into a place that has girlie pictures all > >over the walls. I do not think that most places (unless clearly > >demarcated) that are inviting to both males and females generally have > >adult pictures plastered up. > > Yah, gee, what fun. > > "Are those pictures clearly demarcated!?" > > "Dear Lord, let's get out of here..." > > Brendan > Brendan, I meant that the *place* where the pictures are posted should be clearly demarcated -- as in, in the adult section of a website, or in a some type of club where they are expected, etc. etc. Not just randomly posted throughout sections or places where it is not apparent that they are or should be there. What did you think I meant? Fancy borders? Your comment was sort of unclear. Cat /././././././././././././././././././ The plural of anecdote is not data. \.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Screenshots
Brendan -- Do you honestly think that sexism doesn't exist? Or that it does but it is not a problem worth talking about? You have not stated this sentiment in so many words, but you do seem to be expressing it. Is this intended? Cat On Sat, 23 Oct 1999, Brendan/Coolian wrote: > > >the (big) problem is that there are a lot of > >not-necessarily-purposeful-or-noticed-by-most-of-the-community issues that > >make the community less 'safe' for women... > > God, how I wish a few of you people had ACTUAL problems to Talk about... > > > >the (smaller) problem is that when they are brought up, the common > >reactions are to deny that a problem exists, or to rationalize it, or to > >tell women to ignore it. > > Millions have problems with spontaneously mutating into dogs, deny it and > you're just part of the cover-up, man! > > > > >the (teeny) problem is that there are a few screenshots on themes.org with > >a few gratuitous sex shots. > > Haven't seen any. > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org > > /././././././././././././././././././ The plural of anecdote is not data. \.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Something I've observed
On Sun, 31 Oct 1999, Deirdre Saoirse wrote: > Nothing stops the conversation around here faster than some CMOTW [1] > (who obviously doesn't get it) posting a lot of things that create what > is basically noise. And then everything stops. I absolutely agree with your observation. Notice how we never got anything really resolved about the themes.org issue? The conversation was an excellent mix of diverse opinions, ranging from trying to define exactly what was threatened or discomfiting (or not) about adult pictures to how to deal with the problem. Then it stopped, mostly because we had one audience member whose liberal use of the term PC and ubiquitous posting made it impossible to talk to anyone but him! (Or about anything but him). He seems to have disappeared, but now so has the thread. On top of that, I feel like I expended so much energy argueing with him that I don't have any left over to restart it. > > In the second meeting, three guys showed up and stayed for the whole > meeting. A total of five other men passed through one phase of the meeting > or another (literally to walk through the room). Did they actually come to just look at the group? Or were they legitimate passers-by? >The conversation was > railroaded by two men but one was orders of magnitude worse than the > other. I think anyone with any sense got disgusted about the time that one > guy started "deconstructing cool" -- if they hadn't already been. > > As a result, I brought up the issue (rather regretfully) that we exclude > men altogether from the meeting as it changes the experience. > It does. However, this is something I'd like to try and understand. Is it just the fact that they're men? Or is it the fact that they're men conscious of being part of something with a focus on women? I don't think the first one is correct. With regards to the second, I see two different reactions: 1) overpowering the conversation, in the kinds of ways Deirdre has described; or, 2) joining the discussion in a careful, thoughtful manner, as in the cool ones Deirdre mentions in the next paragraph. Both types seem to be aware that they are treading in territory where they are not on center stage. What is it that makes one accept that and function respectfully and constructively, and the other trample over everything in sight to take back the center? > I don't want to diss all the men on the list; some of the ones who've > been around a while are VERY cool. I'm not going to mention names because > I know I'd forget someone. :) I'm glad you put this here. I definitely have been very impressed with the tenor of most male contributions to this list. > > And I'm not suggesting that we exclude them. But I think we ought to let > it stop us in our tracks less. For example, I thwapped curious pretty darn > hard over the last week. I got a LOT of mail privately, but there was > almost none on the list about it. I think a difficult issue was raised and > the group had a tendency -- which seems one among women at large -- to > avoid the confrontation and thus the list. Ah yes. Curious. Well, in my view, his first post introduced him as a friend of Vinnie's (which lended him credence in my eyes), and then went on to give us a sort of mini-lecture on how this list conducts it's conversations, and why we should conduct them differently. I sort of wondered at that, and didn't really agree, but thought it was a valid point to make. Then came the adult linux thing, and suddenly I thought, 'Oh, *I* see.' I felt that one was a calculated prelude to the other. And I found I had nothing to say. I was disgusted, but I couldn't really get it out onto the screen. I don't want to help him. He is free to do whatever he wants, but why is he asking me to help him do it so it won't offend women in the community? I mean, what is he after? Encouragement? _Cat /././././././././././././././././././ The plural of anecdote is not data. \.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Something I've observed
> > point to make. Then came the adult linux thing, and suddenly I thought, > > 'Oh, *I* see.' I felt that one was a calculated prelude to the other. > > I'm not sure if it was that calculated other than "I need to introduce > myself first." ::shrug:: (to Deirdre) Given your insight on the matter, I will defer to your judgement here. (To curious) Sorry, I think I over-interpreted your introductory statement. > > And I found I had nothing to say. I was disgusted, but I couldn't really > > get it out onto the screen. I don't want to help him. He is free to do > > whatever he wants, but why is he asking me to help him do it so it won't > > offend women in the community? I mean, what is he after? Encouragement? > > Chris, I must admit, is also a friend of mine. I wouldn't have > suggested he come here because I know him well enough to know the outcome. > I don't know why he asked and it still boggles my mind that he thought we > would be a sympathetic audience for that sort of question. Yes, that was definitely my mind-boggle for the week! _Cat /././././././././././././././././././ The plural of anecdote is not data. \.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Automatic associations
On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Terri Oda wrote: > A friend of mine sent this to our mailing list and I thought some of you > would find it interesting: > > http://depts.washington.edu/iat/index.html Very interesting! I had slight preference for young over old, and I only took that one once. For the other two: original order -- slight pref for whites over blacks reverse order -- no preference original order -- slight pref for women in science reverse order -- strong pref for women in science For whomever said they had the women & science thing because of the doctor mom, I'm the same way -- my mom's a radiologist. When I think of scientists in white lab coats they are invariably female in my head. I was actually surprised I didn't have a stronger association the first time through. _Cat /././././././././././././././././././ The plural of anecdote is not data. \.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] alienation (was: Places, issues, etc)
On Thu, 4 Nov 1999, Di Gregory wrote: > > > > I ended up being a Transformer for Halloween (Voltron, specifically :), > > and ended up being teased even more.. this is probably when I started > > Hey! Voltron wasn't a transformer... Transformers I thought were kind of > dumb because they were easy to figure out how it transformed. Voltron was > the 5 cats who came together to form the mighty voltron! I LOVED > Voltron, and He-man and She-ra (although She ra was dumb compared to > He-man... they didn't put She-ra in any he-man episodes but he-man was in > some of the she-ra episodes. And the She-ra dolls didn't look like the > she-ra characters on TV...) I have the power ... if *GraySkull*!!! Ha, ha. I loved He-man and She-ra when I was little, although I like She-ra better because se was a girl. What was BattleCat's name when he wasn't BattleCat? And what was it that She-ra said when she invoked her special powers? _Cat /././././././././././././././././././ The plural of anecdote is not data. \.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] alienation (was: Places, issues, etc)
On Thu, 4 Nov 1999, Cat wrote: > On Thu, 4 Nov 1999, Di Gregory wrote: > > > > > > > > I ended up being a Transformer for Halloween (Voltron, specifically :), > > > and ended up being teased even more.. this is probably when I started > > > > Hey! Voltron wasn't a transformer... Transformers I thought were kind of > > dumb because they were easy to figure out how it transformed. Voltron was > > the 5 cats who came together to form the mighty voltron! I LOVED > > Voltron, and He-man and She-ra (although She ra was dumb compared to > > He-man... they didn't put She-ra in any he-man episodes but he-man was in > > some of the she-ra episodes. And the She-ra dolls didn't look like the > > she-ra characters on TV...) > > I have the power ... if *GraySkull*!!! Ha, ha. I loved He-man and She-ra > when I was little, although I like She-ra better because se was a girl. > What was BattleCat's name when he wasn't BattleCat? And what was it that > She-ra said when she invoked her special powers? > > _Cat > -- oops, make that the power 'of' Grayskull. :-) And my other mistakes and mispelled words are unfortunate too -- I'm usually much better than that! _Cat /././././././././././././././././././ The plural of anecdote is not data. \.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Places, issues and all the rest...Maybe the Wst CoastIS THE Best Coast.
Maybe this should move to grrltalk? It seems kind of far afield from 'issues of women in Linux' to me. _Cat On Mon, 1 Nov 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Steve Kudlak wrote: > > > This is a touchy issue, because if one woman said: "Don't do that", it might > > actually stop things. Or something like" Or it's not worth fight over" > > Instead they back out of the way and let the guys duke it out. > > Or /she/ might get hit. Have you thought about /why/ they (we) back out of the > way? Because we're at least as scared as the guys. > > > Only difference I think is that it IS FAIR FOR ME TO ASK THEM TO ACCEPT MY > > CLOTHING. I may joke about "suits" but they are no less a human being. I only > > ask the same. To me it seems they are glorifying stupidity. But the convenient > > way is to remove myself from it and do to some place better. It is the never > > teach a pig to sing thing... > > It is the never-teach-a-pig-to-sing thing. > > Have you considered the possibility that they might be /afraid/ of you? > Afraid of the symbolism of your appearance, perhaps. > Afraid of your intellect, perhqps? > Afraid of the freedom-to-wear-what-you-wish? > > These are all possible. You have mentioned that you dress as a biker - well, > I tend to be afraid of people who dress as bikers, because my experience is > that I am more likely to be (physically) hurt by a biker than I am to be hurt > by a suit. > > I have been told by a friend that she was intimidated by my reputation as > an intellectual - she thought I'd be patronising, that we'd have nothing to > talk about, that the kind of thing that interests her would bore me silly. > Now, I don't /agree/ with that, but I have to accept that that viewpoint > exists. > > And there's a LOT of people who really hate wearing ties and smart clothes. > Some of them envy people who can get away without it. So some of what you're > experiencing may be envy - not just prejudice. > > > > Jenn V. > -- > Humans are the only species to feed and house entirely separate species > for no reason other than the pleasure of their company. Why? > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]Jenn Vespermanhttp://www.simegen.com/~jenn/ > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org > > /././././././././././././././././././ The plural of anecdote is not data. \.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] MS/DOJ ruling
> want to lable it.. and they wanted more people to use thier product as > apposed to IBM's product... so they ask thier competitor to leave a > product behind... ok... No, they *forced* their competitor to leave a product behind. In fair practice, IBM would have been forced to leave their product behind because of market pressure by consumers, not by pressure from Microsoft. > > > IBM refused, and at the last > > hour, under pressure from their PC Company division, agreed to a compromise: > > they would no longer market OS/2. At the time Warp version 3 was making > > *major* gains, and had sold about 10 million retail copies. IBM already had > > a preload agreement with Tandy (which they had to pull out of), and was > > negotiating them with other manufacturers. However, they were not willing > > to risk not being able to offer Windows. > > So... IBM, wanting to beable to use a MS licensed product gave up on one > of thier own products... > > I fail to see what wrong was done here.. these sorts of deals get made all > the time.. in many diffrent industries... known as "I'll scratch your back > if you scratch mine" Try "You'll scratch my back of you know what's good for you because otherwise I'll force you totally out of business." This being from Microsoft to IBM. _Cat /././././././././././././././././././ The plural of anecdote is not data. \.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] MS/DOJ ruling
On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, curious wrote: > > No, they *forced* their competitor to leave a product behind. In fair > > practice, IBM would have been forced to leave their product behind because > > of market pressure by consumers, not by pressure from Microsoft. > > If OS/2 was marketable enough of a product... it wouln't have had to be > dumpted... however Microsoft's marketing unfortunatly won... I'm surprised > your being so defensive of IBM... if any company could be acused of being > strong armed against compeditors.. IBM would be it.. look up FUD in the > jargon file and be amused :)... they tell people 'you can use that > mathmatical formula because we own the patent.. unless you pay us.. or you > give us rights to your patents" Just using IBM as an example, since it had been brought up. _Cat > /././././././././././././././././././ The plural of anecdote is not data. \.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] MS/DOJ ruling
Curious -- I am curious as to why you are being such a strong advocate for Microsoft on a Linux list. It sounds as if you think Microsoft is has pretty great products. So why do you use Linux? _Cat On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, curious wrote: > > > If a corporation breaks a law.. what would you like to see happen... going > > > for an extreme here... if microsoft hires an assasan to kill Linus.. what > > > should happen? > > > > Actually, corporations are not protected if someone within them commits > > murder. However, I think the point is that corporations should be held to > > the same standards as individuals. > > Not a bad idea... will add that to my going to bed thunk :) > > > severe, would prevent them from bringing any product to market. It would > > not prevent them from doing something innovative. It would prevent them > > from bundling unrelated products and refusing to license their products to > > hardware manufacturers who chose to license competing products. > > So microsoft now HAS to license thier products to the compitition? And > what is considered unrelated? And why should Microsoft be the only OS > vender not permited to do so? This put them on a very unlevel > playingfield... > > > > > even if it's > > > something like splitting up the company.. since at this point application, > > > internet, and OS APIs in Microsoft are so ingrained into the OS.. I don't > > > see how the split is going to help anything.. if they are split they will > > > still be working as one.. only this time microsoft will have more heads... > > > > Why couldn't you split productivity applications (like Office, Money, et > > al.) from operating systems? This would mimic what was done in the AT&T > > case. They are clearly distinct and separate products > > Microsoft apps (esp in the 2K series) are very integrated.. thier photo > software is setup so you can create little animations and have them post > to the web or sent off as an email attachment... thier money software > integrates with online banking.. which incorperates into online > storage/control of your accounts via MSN (creapy I know, but people don't > seem to care).. MSWord integrates into thier mail programs as well.. it's > a huge mess of interlaced applications.. gets his head on straight>... why should they be FORCED to split? > > > > > > -Caity > > > > > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org > > /././././././././././././././././././ The plural of anecdote is not data. \.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Demographics (super long story)
> > If at least some of the women in IT were able to report that they > had received none of the shit that most people here are all too well > aware of, that would be -really- cool. At the moment, most women > who have posted to the thread have stories of discrimination based > on gender rather than ability; and many of the men posting have seen > this in action, too. Hi everyone -- In response to this paragraph, I would like to share my early and very positive experiences in the IT industry as a 23-year-old female. I hear so many bad things about what happens to women in this industry, and I fully understand that it would only be by the best of luck if I did not run into it eventually. I went to college right out of high school, with less than no idea about what I wanted to do with my life. I was a 5-year double-bachelor student in music and 'some academic major'. That academic major morphed from Philosophy to Math to Biology to Chemistry and finally to Religious Studies (almost exclusively on Buddhism w/other non-Western religions). All of this ended up with me doing three years of college that basically went no where. I took some time off, moved back home and went to the community college there for 2 semesters, while working part time at a book store. I took Calc 1 & 2, Physics and some other classes, and realized that I really dug higher math. The reason for this was mostly my Calc 2 teacher, whom everyone but me hated -- he actually made us think and abstract and *understand* what we were doing, and not just spit out problem after problem. I got nothing but encouragement from him to pursue my talents in higher math. Then, I had a split with my mom, and ran off the Maryland with my boyfriend (please don't ask -- my mom and I are fine now, but we've had our rough periods, and my bf and I are still together :-). I still didn't have my bachelor's, but planned to go back. I started temping, and went to work for this company where I was basically a secretary. I had been doing stuff with computers since my mom bought me an Apple IIe when I was really young, but had never done anything serious. Anyway, when I was temping, I was basically forced to confront the PC world (I had a Macintosh PowerBook in college), and sort of muddled on through doing Word and Excel stuff. Then, I started using formulae in Excel, and thought it was pretty cool. One day, my 'boss' asked me to do a mail merge, which I had no idea how to do, but I read the documentation and played around with it and got it working. She then asked me to maintain this small database of addresses I'd input to send out more letters. I ended up leaving that company (although I went back as a full-time employee a few months later) and at my next company, there were a bunch of reports that they were generating by hand, using the same data each time. I set up a mail merge for them (this was totally MS Word mail merging -- what did I know?), and showed them how they could use fields in form letters to generate reports and stuff. I started experimenting with if-then-else mail merge things, so that if a field was blank, print something else -- that kind of thing. I was really feeling the need to get back in school, so I started researching schools in the area and found that the University of Maryland had an extension called University College that was for commuting, working students. I applied, and was looking at classes. Suddenly, it came to me -- I loved making computers do stuff! I really enjoyed figuring out the if-then stuff, and I had received encouragement at my results. So, I signed up for CMSC 130, the first Computer Science course, along with a Visual Basic course. On the first day of the CMSC course, my professor was talking about the Unix compiler for Ada, and then he looked up and said, "You all don't know what a compiler is, do you?" We all looked at him blankly, and he started from the beginning. I worked actually with my bf to figure out the school Unix system (he knows Unix very well), and he showed me what a .login file can do, and walked me through most of the basic commands. I worked pretty closely with a wonderful TA, and my professor that term, and ended up getting a 98 percent in the class. I went back to the first place I'd temped, having been offered a full-time job in their corporate manufacturing department. Even though my job had little to do with computer science my two male bosses encouraged me to apply for tuition assistance, and they signed off on numerous classes of mine (reimbursement was 85% for and A or B, 50% for a C). They also encouraged me to use the company computers in the evening for my school work. Our sys admin (NT) there was a woman, which was also encouraging. They ended up having me develop a MS Access (with Visual Basic) complaint tracking system. I left that company for a position at an IP faxing business where I am today. I was taking two classes per term in the ev
Re: [issues] Re: Demographics - Reprise
> for coke and pizza. I thought the math and science teachers were > jerks, took as much English and art shop classes as I could (we got to > make things), skipped phy ed as often as possible, (oh, yes, and > learned German), and stayed home and read. Very un-masculine, for the Ah, but I (as a 23-year-old who was in eighth grade in the late 80's) remember very well a choice between taking shop or taking home ec. My counselor asked me "are you sure? are you *really* sure?" when I insisted I wanted to take shop. I was one of two girls in the first day of class. The teacher (male) said, "Well, good morning and welcome gentlemen -- oh, and ladies?" I remember my guidance counselor smiling proudly at me when I slunk back into his office to ask if I could please get into home ec. I just couldn't handle 50 boys all at once at that age, especially with a less than encouraging teacher (and counselor). So there I went into home ec with *all* girls, and teacher who told us never to rinse our dishes in cold water because then they would never dry -- there's some serious science for you. *blech*. I continued on in advanced math and science, but *come on*. Even the smallest, wimpiest boy would have been 50 times more welcome and encouraged in the shop class. If you can't tell I am *still* steamed about this -- especially since I figure eigth grade girls and boys are *still* faced with that same ridiculous and sexist choice. It was required to take one or the other when I was there -- can you imagine? _Cat /././././././././././././././././././ The plural of anecdote is not data. \.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Re: Demographics - Reprise
On Sat, 8 Jan 2000, Cat wrote: > > for coke and pizza. I thought the math and science teachers were > > jerks, took as much English and art shop classes as I could (we got to > > make things), skipped phy ed as often as possible, (oh, yes, and > > learned German), and stayed home and read. Very un-masculine, for the One more thing -- the space for home ec was checked off before I even got into my guidance counselor's office. As I recall he had to white it out to fill in the space for shop. *blech blech blech* _CAt [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Re: Demographics - Reprise
On Sun, 9 Jan 2000, Jenn V. wrote: > > > Cat wrote: > > > > Ah, but I (as a 23-year-old who was in eighth grade in the late 80's) > > remember very well a choice between taking shop or taking home ec. > > You had a choice? Wow. We didn't. Home ec it was, if you had > inward-pointing genitalia. Shop if it pointed out. > Wow -- so there has been progress! ;-) To me, that experience was exactly the sort of thing that women are talking about when they talk about the fact that even though certain opportunities seem to exist, in a significant way they don't. Sure, I was *allowed* to take shop, but *could* I? Not at that age, that's for sure, and if I hadn't had pretty much positive experiences since then (as I expressed in my earlier e-mail), I certainly would have given up. And think about it -- my guidance counselor certainly knew what would happen. He probably was honestly thinking of my own good when he asked me if I was sure. But that didn't make him march down to the teacher and tell him to act in an accepting manner to his female students, did it? Wow, I really *am* riled about this! _Cat /././././././././././././././././././ The plural of anecdote is not data. \.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
RE: [issues] Re: Demographics - Reprise
On this topic of -ess endings, interestingly enough Miss Manners had something to say about it in her most recent column. I actually agree with some of her points -- what do you all think? http://search.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/12/146l-011200-idx.html I mean, isn't taking the male word as the neuter word doing the same thing as using mankind vs humankind? I personally dislike the fact that 'he' and 'his' are supposed to be used when referring to a possible person of either gender. I really enjoyed my operating systems class last semester, where every reference to a user or programmer was 'she' and 'her'. _CAt /././././././././././././././././././ The plural of anecdote is not data. \.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Re: Demographics - Reprise
On Thu, 13 Jan 2000, Deirdre Saoirse wrote: > On 13 Jan 2000, Kirrily 'Skud' Robert wrote: > > > Speaking of websites, I used to be "webmaster" for an ISP. I asked my > > boss permission to set up aliases for either "webadmin" or "webmistress" > > and use them, but was told that I wasn't to do it. So I ended up > > getting an awful lot of webmaster mail addressed "dear sir". > > I like the solution of the VA Linux web team: use webgoddess. Mistress, at > least in the US, carries a connotation of dominatrix. Is there any interest in taking these words back with positive meanings? I mean, we do belong to a group called linuxchix (chick used to have rather a nasty connotation) and then there is the whole girl/grrl thing. I think 'webmistress' has a nice ring to it, personally, and the only reason any word has a particular connotation aside from its actual meaning is the way in which it is generally used. If it begins to be used without regard to the connotation, then its connotation can change. _CAt /././././././././././././././././././ The plural of anecdote is not data. \.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
RE: [issues] Re: Demographics - Reprise
On Fri, 14 Jan 2000, Sunnanvind wrote: > On Thu, 13 Jan 2000, Cat wrote: > > I mean, isn't taking the male word as the neuter word doing the > > same thing as using mankind vs humankind? I personally dislike the fact > > that 'he' and 'his' are supposed to be used when referring to a possible > > person of either gender. I really enjoyed my operating systems class last > > semester, where every reference to a user or programmer was 'she' and > > 'her'. Just a quick clarification -- in my operating systems course, every reference *in our textbook* was she and her. Oops! /././././././././././././././././././ The plural of anecdote is not data. \.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
[issues] The format of a resume.
Ok, I am a straight linux kinda person now. I just started looking for a new job. When I sent out my resume I did it in straight text. One of the recruiters asked me to send it in Word Document format. So, I went to my local University and transfered it to Word format. Well I just got an e-mail from the mail server of the recruiter informing me that it detected a virus in the file. Egg on my face. so my real question is why can't recruiters accept a resume in text format especially when you are applying for a Unix Sysadmin job? Thanks, CatNTHat __ Get Visto.com! Private groups, event calendars, email, and much more. Visto.com. Life on the Dot. Check it out @ http://www.visto.com/info ___ issues mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linux.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/issues
Re: [issues] The format of a resume.
It was vi that I created it in originally. I currently don't have a personal web page. I canceled the dialup account that it was on and have not created one on my cable modem account yet. I suppose that I will have to do that. As a side note - how much contact information do you put on a resume that you post on your web page? Thanks, CatNTHat -Original Message- From:Brendan Coffey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent:Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:30:51 -0400 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [issues] The format of a resume. I've found that an HTML resume on my personal website is the most appropriate and convenient format. Most HR and recruiter types can deal with HTML just fine. If not, most browsers support saving a file as plain text, and they can do this themselves. Further, the resume is now on the web and, thusly, gets crawled by search engines (which gets me more employment inquiries than I care to deal with). I've been surprised by the number of companies which will search for new hires using a simple query like: +"resume of" +unix +admin I don't see the need to maintain multiple, differently-formatted, versions of my resume. If a recruiter is unable (or unwilling) to deal with anything but Word, they can go get hit by a bus, AFAIAC. The web is the answer for resumes, in my experience. -b P.S. Note also that vi has never "accidentally" inserted a virus into anything I've written in it. --- > > > Ok, I am a straight linux kinda person now. I just started looking > for a new job. When I sent out my resume I did it in straight > text. One of the recruiters asked me to send it in Word Document > format. So, I went to my local University and transfered it to > Word format. Well I just got an e-mail from the mail server of > the recruiter informing me that it detected a virus in the file. > Egg on my face. > > so my real question is why can't recruiters accept a resume in text > format especially when you are applying for a Unix Sysadmin job? > > > > Thanks, > > CatNTHat > __ > Get Visto.com! Private groups, event calendars, email, and much more. > Visto.com. Life on the Dot. > Check it out @ http://www.visto.com/info > > > > ___ > issues mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.linux.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/issues __ Get Visto.com! Private groups, event calendars, email, and much more. Visto.com. Life on the Dot. Check it out @ http://www.visto.com/info ___ issues mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linux.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/issues
Re: [issues] The format of a resume.
Hmm...thanks, I'm going to have to try that .doc thing. hehe. Thanks, CatNTHat -Original Message- From:Kirrily 'Skud' Robert [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent:13 Apr 2000 01:35:53 GMT To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [issues] The format of a resume. I wrote an article on recruiters and linux on Linuxtoday's local site. I've got a copy at http://netizen.com.au/~skud/writing/ if anyone's interested. It even has a hint for dealing with MS-Word-loving recruiters. K. -- Kirrily Robert -- <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -- http://netizen.com.au/ Internet and Open Source Development, Consulting and Training Level 13, 500 Collins St, Melbourne VIC 3000 Phone: +61 3 9614 0949 Fax +61 3 9614 0948 __ Get Visto.com! Private groups, event calendars, email, and much more. Visto.com. Life on the Dot. Check it out @ http://www.visto.com/info ___ issues mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linux.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/issues
Re: [issues] The format of a resume.
Where was it?!? One of the problems that I'm running into right now is that I'm in boondocks, Michigan and the good jobs are about 2-3 hours drive from here. I think I may have to move. :) Thanks, CatNTHat -Original Message- From:Ian Hall-Beyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent:Thu, 13 Apr 2000 16:23:22 -0600 (MDT) To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [issues] The format of a resume. On Wed, 12 Apr 2000, The Cat In The Hat wrote: My standard policy on resume formats is that if they can't figure out a way to deal with a text resume, then they really aren't that eager to use my skills. Recruiters typically take the resume, print it, and then give it to their client. I interviewed this morning for a position at a large Unix-centric dotcom company, and they had no problems whatsoever with my resume in ASCII. (I think I may have gotten the job, too) -Ian -- wow, this is kinda nifty. the win98 protocol stack is like a chinese finger puzzle, twist and turn in the right places, and it pops right off --Seen on EFNet IRC __ Get Visto.com! Private groups, event calendars, email, and much more. Visto.com. Life on the Dot. Check it out @ http://www.visto.com/info ___ issues mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linux.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/issues
[issues] Re: Screenshots
I thought they were putting all the themes like that in an 'Adult' section, perhaps you should send a note to the admin of the E themes site and let them know that you think they should be in that section. I don't feel that a locker room atmosphere is correct, an open atmosphere would be a more correct idea. Remember, you can't please everyone all the time. Catnthat >Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 12:40:31 -0400 (EDT) >From: Ingrid Schupbach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Screenshots > >BEWARE! THE MESSAGE BELOW IS AN ANGRY RANT: > >I am fed-up with all these screenshots that include pictures of scantily >clad or otherwise sexually charged pictures of women. When I was trying >to find a good new theme from e.themes.org I was really turned off by >this. I find that this is just another example of how the Linux community >often -- probably largely unknowingly and unwittingly -- creates a boy's >lockeroom atmosphere. As a woman, it just doesn't make it seem like I'm >really invited. > >I respect the Linux mantra that everyone should be able to design their >computers and their piece of cyberspace in whatever way they choose. But >messages should not be sent out carelessly and thoughtlessly. If there >really is a commitment to making Linux inviting to everyone, then I >believe there needs to be a change in the horny-male-geeks-only atmosphere >that's awfully pervasive. I'm tired of being asked whether I'm a >perky-breasted-Linux-chick, and I'm tired of endless references to penises >and to porn in Linux-related irc channels. > >Ingrid __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
