Re: [AFMUG] backup power for small tower

[dmmoffett]

Usually when people say "DC plant" they mean a rectifier.  A charger + inverter 
like you proposed would probably also count as having DC power plant.
I used one of these once:  
https://www.aimscorp.net/12-Volt-Pure-Sine-Inverter-Chargers/
Worked fine, but no remote management.  I'm sure there are a dozen options out 
there to pick from.

An isolation transformer might be a less intrusive change.  Tripp Lite makes 
some affordable ones.  On the trip lite ones I had the hot and neutral were 
isolated, but the ground passed straight through.  Depending on where the noise 
is coming from that might not fix it, but you can test an isolated ground by 
snapping off the ground prong on the transformer or using a 2-prong adapter.  I 
say "test" because you shouldn't run without a ground permanently.

  


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Jan-GAMs
Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2023 3:41 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] backup power for small tower

It's in a parking-lot of a business and they started plugging their food truck 
into the power-source.  So what do you mean by "DC plant"?

On 1/8/23 12:20, Bill Prince wrote:
> If your site is 100% DC-powered, the batteries should provide all the 
> isolation you need. My suggestion is to just switch to DC plant.
>
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 1/8/2023 11:21 AM, Jan-GAMs wrote:
>> Ever since a food truck started plugging their truck into the same 
>> power source we use we've been experiencing severe packet loss 
>> through it.  Possibly electrical motor-hum?  Anyway, I'm wondering 
>> what is available or suggested to use to place a better electrical 
>> isolation for a battery backup in the box on the tower.
>>
>> We're using two ubiquiti radios one cheap ubiquiti router and a Cisco 
>> fiber to ether-net router.  We have a cyberpower 450va that provides 
>> power for less than an hour when we have a power outage. It would be 
>> better if we could use something more hefty.  The NEMA box is 2ft x 
>> 2ft x 8in.  Inside is 2ft x 2ft x 6in.  So there isn't much room.
>>
>> I'm thinking maybe a stack of batteries, a charger and a sine-wave 
>> invertor?  Unless someone knows of a product that would do what's 
>> needed?
>>
>>
>

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Re: [AFMUG] backup power for small tower

[Josh Luthman]

Step 1 is to figure out where your packet loss is coming from.  If it's
interference on the RF side, changing to a DC plant is a complete waste of
time/money.

On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 9:21 AM  wrote:

> Usually when people say "DC plant" they mean a rectifier.  A charger +
> inverter like you proposed would probably also count as having DC power
> plant.
> I used one of these once:
> https://www.aimscorp.net/12-Volt-Pure-Sine-Inverter-Chargers/
> Worked fine, but no remote management.  I'm sure there are a dozen options
> out there to pick from.
>
> An isolation transformer might be a less intrusive change.  Tripp Lite
> makes some affordable ones.  On the trip lite ones I had the hot and
> neutral were isolated, but the ground passed straight through.  Depending
> on where the noise is coming from that might not fix it, but you can test
> an isolated ground by snapping off the ground prong on the transformer or
> using a 2-prong adapter.  I say "test" because you shouldn't run without a
> ground permanently.
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Jan-GAMs
> Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2023 3:41 PM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] backup power for small tower
>
> It's in a parking-lot of a business and they started plugging their food
> truck into the power-source.  So what do you mean by "DC plant"?
>
> On 1/8/23 12:20, Bill Prince wrote:
> > If your site is 100% DC-powered, the batteries should provide all the
> > isolation you need. My suggestion is to just switch to DC plant.
> >
> >
> > bp
> > 
> >
> > On 1/8/2023 11:21 AM, Jan-GAMs wrote:
> >> Ever since a food truck started plugging their truck into the same
> >> power source we use we've been experiencing severe packet loss
> >> through it.  Possibly electrical motor-hum?  Anyway, I'm wondering
> >> what is available or suggested to use to place a better electrical
> >> isolation for a battery backup in the box on the tower.
> >>
> >> We're using two ubiquiti radios one cheap ubiquiti router and a Cisco
> >> fiber to ether-net router.  We have a cyberpower 450va that provides
> >> power for less than an hour when we have a power outage. It would be
> >> better if we could use something more hefty.  The NEMA box is 2ft x
> >> 2ft x 8in.  Inside is 2ft x 2ft x 6in.  So there isn't much room.
> >>
> >> I'm thinking maybe a stack of batteries, a charger and a sine-wave
> >> invertor?  Unless someone knows of a product that would do what's
> >> needed?
> >>
> >>
> >
>
> --
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> AF@af.afmug.com
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>
>
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Re: [AFMUG] backup power for small tower

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

Agreed.   And if it's on the ethernet side, just adding some ferrite chokes
to the power line might fix the problem.   Or switching to shielded cable.

On Mon, Jan 9, 2023, 7:52 AM Josh Luthman 
wrote:

> Step 1 is to figure out where your packet loss is coming from.  If it's
> interference on the RF side, changing to a DC plant is a complete waste of
> time/money.
>
> On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 9:21 AM  wrote:
>
>> Usually when people say "DC plant" they mean a rectifier.  A charger +
>> inverter like you proposed would probably also count as having DC power
>> plant.
>> I used one of these once:
>> https://www.aimscorp.net/12-Volt-Pure-Sine-Inverter-Chargers/
>> Worked fine, but no remote management.  I'm sure there are a dozen
>> options out there to pick from.
>>
>> An isolation transformer might be a less intrusive change.  Tripp Lite
>> makes some affordable ones.  On the trip lite ones I had the hot and
>> neutral were isolated, but the ground passed straight through.  Depending
>> on where the noise is coming from that might not fix it, but you can test
>> an isolated ground by snapping off the ground prong on the transformer or
>> using a 2-prong adapter.  I say "test" because you shouldn't run without a
>> ground permanently.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: AF  On Behalf Of Jan-GAMs
>> Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2023 3:41 PM
>> To: af@af.afmug.com
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] backup power for small tower
>>
>> It's in a parking-lot of a business and they started plugging their food
>> truck into the power-source.  So what do you mean by "DC plant"?
>>
>> On 1/8/23 12:20, Bill Prince wrote:
>> > If your site is 100% DC-powered, the batteries should provide all the
>> > isolation you need. My suggestion is to just switch to DC plant.
>> >
>> >
>> > bp
>> > 
>> >
>> > On 1/8/2023 11:21 AM, Jan-GAMs wrote:
>> >> Ever since a food truck started plugging their truck into the same
>> >> power source we use we've been experiencing severe packet loss
>> >> through it.  Possibly electrical motor-hum?  Anyway, I'm wondering
>> >> what is available or suggested to use to place a better electrical
>> >> isolation for a battery backup in the box on the tower.
>> >>
>> >> We're using two ubiquiti radios one cheap ubiquiti router and a Cisco
>> >> fiber to ether-net router.  We have a cyberpower 450va that provides
>> >> power for less than an hour when we have a power outage. It would be
>> >> better if we could use something more hefty.  The NEMA box is 2ft x
>> >> 2ft x 8in.  Inside is 2ft x 2ft x 6in.  So there isn't much room.
>> >>
>> >> I'm thinking maybe a stack of batteries, a charger and a sine-wave
>> >> invertor?  Unless someone knows of a product that would do what's
>> >> needed?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
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Re: [AFMUG] backup power for small tower

[Josh Luthman]

I had a 0% success rate with ferrite.

I have a 100% success rate with fiber (up the tower).

On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 10:57 AM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
li...@packetflux.com> wrote:

> Agreed.   And if it's on the ethernet side, just adding some ferrite
> chokes to the power line might fix the problem.   Or switching to shielded
> cable.
>
> On Mon, Jan 9, 2023, 7:52 AM Josh Luthman 
> wrote:
>
>> Step 1 is to figure out where your packet loss is coming from.  If it's
>> interference on the RF side, changing to a DC plant is a complete waste of
>> time/money.
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 9:21 AM  wrote:
>>
>>> Usually when people say "DC plant" they mean a rectifier.  A charger +
>>> inverter like you proposed would probably also count as having DC power
>>> plant.
>>> I used one of these once:
>>> https://www.aimscorp.net/12-Volt-Pure-Sine-Inverter-Chargers/
>>> Worked fine, but no remote management.  I'm sure there are a dozen
>>> options out there to pick from.
>>>
>>> An isolation transformer might be a less intrusive change.  Tripp Lite
>>> makes some affordable ones.  On the trip lite ones I had the hot and
>>> neutral were isolated, but the ground passed straight through.  Depending
>>> on where the noise is coming from that might not fix it, but you can test
>>> an isolated ground by snapping off the ground prong on the transformer or
>>> using a 2-prong adapter.  I say "test" because you shouldn't run without a
>>> ground permanently.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: AF  On Behalf Of Jan-GAMs
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2023 3:41 PM
>>> To: af@af.afmug.com
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] backup power for small tower
>>>
>>> It's in a parking-lot of a business and they started plugging their food
>>> truck into the power-source.  So what do you mean by "DC plant"?
>>>
>>> On 1/8/23 12:20, Bill Prince wrote:
>>> > If your site is 100% DC-powered, the batteries should provide all the
>>> > isolation you need. My suggestion is to just switch to DC plant.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > bp
>>> > 
>>> >
>>> > On 1/8/2023 11:21 AM, Jan-GAMs wrote:
>>> >> Ever since a food truck started plugging their truck into the same
>>> >> power source we use we've been experiencing severe packet loss
>>> >> through it.  Possibly electrical motor-hum?  Anyway, I'm wondering
>>> >> what is available or suggested to use to place a better electrical
>>> >> isolation for a battery backup in the box on the tower.
>>> >>
>>> >> We're using two ubiquiti radios one cheap ubiquiti router and a Cisco
>>> >> fiber to ether-net router.  We have a cyberpower 450va that provides
>>> >> power for less than an hour when we have a power outage. It would be
>>> >> better if we could use something more hefty.  The NEMA box is 2ft x
>>> >> 2ft x 8in.  Inside is 2ft x 2ft x 6in.  So there isn't much room.
>>> >>
>>> >> I'm thinking maybe a stack of batteries, a charger and a sine-wave
>>> >> invertor?  Unless someone knows of a product that would do what's
>>> >> needed?
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>>
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>> --
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>> AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] backup power for small tower

[dmmoffett]

I’ve had success with ferrites, but I got them with high impedance at the 
frequency of the other guy’s transmitter, and I got ginormous ones that I could 
loop the ethernet through a whole bunch of times.

Someone on this list informed me that impedance is squared by the number of 
turns the cable takes through the ferrite, so I get one like 2” diameter and I 
coil it through as many times as will fit.

 

If you don’t know the frequency of the interference then it’s harder, but you 
might assume it’s 60hz if it’s really from a motor or some such.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2023 11:05 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] backup power for small tower

 

I had a 0% success rate with ferrite.

 

I have a 100% success rate with fiber (up the tower).

 

On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 10:57 AM Forrest Christian (List Account) 
mailto:li...@packetflux.com> > wrote:

Agreed.   And if it's on the ethernet side, just adding some ferrite chokes to 
the power line might fix the problem.   Or switching to shielded cable.

 

On Mon, Jan 9, 2023, 7:52 AM Josh Luthman mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> > wrote:

Step 1 is to figure out where your packet loss is coming from.  If it's 
interference on the RF side, changing to a DC plant is a complete waste of 
time/money.

 

On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 9:21 AM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Usually when people say "DC plant" they mean a rectifier.  A charger + inverter 
like you proposed would probably also count as having DC power plant.
I used one of these once:  
https://www.aimscorp.net/12-Volt-Pure-Sine-Inverter-Chargers/
Worked fine, but no remote management.  I'm sure there are a dozen options out 
there to pick from.

An isolation transformer might be a less intrusive change.  Tripp Lite makes 
some affordable ones.  On the trip lite ones I had the hot and neutral were 
isolated, but the ground passed straight through.  Depending on where the noise 
is coming from that might not fix it, but you can test an isolated ground by 
snapping off the ground prong on the transformer or using a 2-prong adapter.  I 
say "test" because you shouldn't run without a ground permanently.




-Original Message-
From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Jan-GAMs
Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2023 3:41 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] backup power for small tower

It's in a parking-lot of a business and they started plugging their food truck 
into the power-source.  So what do you mean by "DC plant"?

On 1/8/23 12:20, Bill Prince wrote:
> If your site is 100% DC-powered, the batteries should provide all the 
> isolation you need. My suggestion is to just switch to DC plant.
>
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 1/8/2023 11:21 AM, Jan-GAMs wrote:
>> Ever since a food truck started plugging their truck into the same 
>> power source we use we've been experiencing severe packet loss 
>> through it.  Possibly electrical motor-hum?  Anyway, I'm wondering 
>> what is available or suggested to use to place a better electrical 
>> isolation for a battery backup in the box on the tower.
>>
>> We're using two ubiquiti radios one cheap ubiquiti router and a Cisco 
>> fiber to ether-net router.  We have a cyberpower 450va that provides 
>> power for less than an hour when we have a power outage. It would be 
>> better if we could use something more hefty.  The NEMA box is 2ft x 
>> 2ft x 8in.  Inside is 2ft x 2ft x 6in.  So there isn't much room.
>>
>> I'm thinking maybe a stack of batteries, a charger and a sine-wave 
>> invertor?  Unless someone knows of a product that would do what's 
>> needed?
>>
>>
>

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[AFMUG] Direct bury tracer wire reccomendations/experience.

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

I'm working on doing specs for a project (home) which will require burying
new water and sewer lines on the property.

I'm tired of not being able to locate these after they're buried so I plan
on having the contractor bury some tracer wire along with the plumbing.

I've learned that the best option for things like this is to either spec or
provide exactly what I want buried.   Otherwise you'll end up with some
inexperienced contractor which installs something which won't work.

Apparently the choices for tracer wire are far more varied than I had
expected.  Insulation,  metal type, gauge, color, and so on.

It looks like 14AWG copper HMWPE might be what I'm looking for.  But there
are other options as well.Does any of this work better or is less (or
more) likely to be damaged in a way which makes it untraceable?  I'm
assuming green and blue will be needed for sewer and water.

I don't think the following will apply, but there is also the possibility
that at least one of the lines won't terminate at one end anywhere that we
can poke the wire up above the ground (tapping into existing line) I'm
assuming that one can resolve this by laying a ground rod in the trench and
terminating to that.

Any other things I should watch for here?
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Re: [AFMUG] backup power for small tower

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

I'm suggesting on the AC line if that's where the noise is coming from.

My guess is one of two things:

1) somehow the truck is generating rf noise.  For example they have a
mobile Hotspot or signal booster or something like that. Or some other non
obvious source.

2) the truck is generating noise on the electrical system.   Check for bad
grounds, apply filtering, and so on.  Changing the shielding arrangement on
the cat5 cable might help.   That is add/remove shield, try
 connecting/grounding the shield on both ends or just the top,  or just the
bottom.   And try grounding the shield without connecting it to the radio.


The question here is where is the noise coming from.One way to isolate
the power as an option is to try running off a generator.   Or have the
truck run off the generator.

On Mon, Jan 9, 2023, 9:06 AM Josh Luthman 
wrote:

> I had a 0% success rate with ferrite.
>
> I have a 100% success rate with fiber (up the tower).
>
> On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 10:57 AM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
> li...@packetflux.com> wrote:
>
>> Agreed.   And if it's on the ethernet side, just adding some ferrite
>> chokes to the power line might fix the problem.   Or switching to shielded
>> cable.
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 9, 2023, 7:52 AM Josh Luthman 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Step 1 is to figure out where your packet loss is coming from.  If it's
>>> interference on the RF side, changing to a DC plant is a complete waste of
>>> time/money.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 9:21 AM  wrote:
>>>
 Usually when people say "DC plant" they mean a rectifier.  A charger +
 inverter like you proposed would probably also count as having DC power
 plant.
 I used one of these once:
 https://www.aimscorp.net/12-Volt-Pure-Sine-Inverter-Chargers/
 Worked fine, but no remote management.  I'm sure there are a dozen
 options out there to pick from.

 An isolation transformer might be a less intrusive change.  Tripp Lite
 makes some affordable ones.  On the trip lite ones I had the hot and
 neutral were isolated, but the ground passed straight through.  Depending
 on where the noise is coming from that might not fix it, but you can test
 an isolated ground by snapping off the ground prong on the transformer or
 using a 2-prong adapter.  I say "test" because you shouldn't run without a
 ground permanently.




 -Original Message-
 From: AF  On Behalf Of Jan-GAMs
 Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2023 3:41 PM
 To: af@af.afmug.com
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] backup power for small tower

 It's in a parking-lot of a business and they started plugging their
 food truck into the power-source.  So what do you mean by "DC plant"?

 On 1/8/23 12:20, Bill Prince wrote:
 > If your site is 100% DC-powered, the batteries should provide all the
 > isolation you need. My suggestion is to just switch to DC plant.
 >
 >
 > bp
 > 
 >
 > On 1/8/2023 11:21 AM, Jan-GAMs wrote:
 >> Ever since a food truck started plugging their truck into the same
 >> power source we use we've been experiencing severe packet loss
 >> through it.  Possibly electrical motor-hum?  Anyway, I'm wondering
 >> what is available or suggested to use to place a better electrical
 >> isolation for a battery backup in the box on the tower.
 >>
 >> We're using two ubiquiti radios one cheap ubiquiti router and a
 Cisco
 >> fiber to ether-net router.  We have a cyberpower 450va that provides
 >> power for less than an hour when we have a power outage. It would be
 >> better if we could use something more hefty.  The NEMA box is 2ft x
 >> 2ft x 8in.  Inside is 2ft x 2ft x 6in.  So there isn't much room.
 >>
 >> I'm thinking maybe a stack of batteries, a charger and a sine-wave
 >> invertor?  Unless someone knows of a product that would do what's
 >> needed?
 >>
 >>
 >

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Re: [AFMUG] Direct bury tracer wire reccomendations/experience.

[Josh Luthman]

Don't you have some random copper laying around?  Our fiber tracer wire is
24 awg.  Just place the conductive wire in the same hole as the water/sewer
lines.  The color is kind of pointless but I guess you could spend the
money and follow the rules *shrug*.

If the wire ends the locate ends.  Why not just extend the wire with the
new pipe?

14 gauge seems like way too big if you ask me, that's a lot of money down
that new sewer line.

On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 11:31 AM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
li...@packetflux.com> wrote:

> I'm working on doing specs for a project (home) which will require burying
> new water and sewer lines on the property.
>
> I'm tired of not being able to locate these after they're buried so I plan
> on having the contractor bury some tracer wire along with the plumbing.
>
> I've learned that the best option for things like this is to either spec
> or provide exactly what I want buried.   Otherwise you'll end up with some
> inexperienced contractor which installs something which won't work.
>
> Apparently the choices for tracer wire are far more varied than I had
> expected.  Insulation,  metal type, gauge, color, and so on.
>
> It looks like 14AWG copper HMWPE might be what I'm looking for.  But there
> are other options as well.Does any of this work better or is less (or
> more) likely to be damaged in a way which makes it untraceable?  I'm
> assuming green and blue will be needed for sewer and water.
>
> I don't think the following will apply, but there is also the possibility
> that at least one of the lines won't terminate at one end anywhere that we
> can poke the wire up above the ground (tapping into existing line) I'm
> assuming that one can resolve this by laying a ground rod in the trench and
> terminating to that.
>
> Any other things I should watch for here?
> --
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Re: [AFMUG] Direct bury tracer wire reccomendations/experience.

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

The place where the line might end is a sewer line addition.  I don't
expect that they'll end up digging a new line all the way to the tank,
instead I'd expect them to find the existing pipe in the middle of the
parking area and dig the new trench to that location,  and add a Y of some
sort into the existing main line.  So the only place I would be able to add
the tracer would be along the new line.   The question is how to ensure
that section is locateable.

And as far as locate wire goes, when I've done fiber, I typically just pull
in some thhn or similar with the fiber or use locatable fiber.  But I've
also seen thhn direct bury tracer wire fail,  or at least not be locatable
past a certain.  In a conduit this isn't a problem, you just replace the
cable.   Direct bury next to plastic water pipes is a different story.

On Mon, Jan 9, 2023, 9:38 AM Josh Luthman 
wrote:

> Don't you have some random copper laying around?  Our fiber tracer wire is
> 24 awg.  Just place the conductive wire in the same hole as the water/sewer
> lines.  The color is kind of pointless but I guess you could spend the
> money and follow the rules *shrug*.
>
> If the wire ends the locate ends.  Why not just extend the wire with the
> new pipe?
>
> 14 gauge seems like way too big if you ask me, that's a lot of money down
> that new sewer line.
>
> On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 11:31 AM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
> li...@packetflux.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm working on doing specs for a project (home) which will require
>> burying new water and sewer lines on the property.
>>
>> I'm tired of not being able to locate these after they're buried so I
>> plan on having the contractor bury some tracer wire along with the plumbing.
>>
>> I've learned that the best option for things like this is to either spec
>> or provide exactly what I want buried.   Otherwise you'll end up with some
>> inexperienced contractor which installs something which won't work.
>>
>> Apparently the choices for tracer wire are far more varied than I had
>> expected.  Insulation,  metal type, gauge, color, and so on.
>>
>> It looks like 14AWG copper HMWPE might be what I'm looking for.  But
>> there are other options as well.Does any of this work better or is less
>> (or more) likely to be damaged in a way which makes it untraceable?  I'm
>> assuming green and blue will be needed for sewer and water.
>>
>> I don't think the following will apply, but there is also the possibility
>> that at least one of the lines won't terminate at one end anywhere that we
>> can poke the wire up above the ground (tapping into existing line) I'm
>> assuming that one can resolve this by laying a ground rod in the trench and
>> terminating to that.
>>
>> Any other things I should watch for here?
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
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Re: [AFMUG] Direct bury tracer wire reccomendations/experience.

[Chuck McCown via AF]

Almost anything will work.  Obviously you want to avoid insulated steel.  
Copper is fine.  Even 18-20 gauge solid is fine as long as it does not get 
broken.  Copperweld, copper over steel is good.  Just bring it to the surface 
at both end.  When it comes time to locate just ground one end.  Even a clip 
cord and screwdriver is good enough for that.  I think the stuff we have on our 
cable plow is copperweld with a thick orange insulation.  Anyone that sells 
duct and fiber normally sells the normal tracer wire.  But short runs in a 
residential project, just get some 14 gauge THHN.  

From: Forrest Christian (List Account) 
Sent: Monday, January 9, 2023 9:28 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] Direct bury tracer wire reccomendations/experience.

I'm working on doing specs for a project (home) which will require burying new 
water and sewer lines on the property. 

I'm tired of not being able to locate these after they're buried so I plan on 
having the contractor bury some tracer wire along with the plumbing.

I've learned that the best option for things like this is to either spec or 
provide exactly what I want buried.   Otherwise you'll end up with some 
inexperienced contractor which installs something which won't work. 

Apparently the choices for tracer wire are far more varied than I had expected. 
 Insulation,  metal type, gauge, color, and so on. 

It looks like 14AWG copper HMWPE might be what I'm looking for.  But there are 
other options as well.Does any of this work better or is less (or more) 
likely to be damaged in a way which makes it untraceable?  I'm assuming green 
and blue will be needed for sewer and water. 

I don't think the following will apply, but there is also the possibility that 
at least one of the lines won't terminate at one end anywhere that we can poke 
the wire up above the ground (tapping into existing line) I'm assuming that one 
can resolve this by laying a ground rod in the trench and terminating to that. 

Any other things I should watch for here?



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Re: [AFMUG] Direct bury tracer wire reccomendations/experience.

[Chuck McCown via AF]

14 gauge is rugged and will last.  I think the gas company out here uses 14 
gauge.  20 gauge on up is not terribly strong.  UDOT recently changed their 
spec for the tracer molded into MD7 microduct from 20 gauge to 14 gauge.  

From: Josh Luthman 
Sent: Monday, January 9, 2023 9:37 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Direct bury tracer wire reccomendations/experience.

Don't you have some random copper laying around?  Our fiber tracer wire is 24 
awg.  Just place the conductive wire in the same hole as the water/sewer lines. 
 The color is kind of pointless but I guess you could spend the money and 
follow the rules *shrug*. 

If the wire ends the locate ends.  Why not just extend the wire with the new 
pipe?


14 gauge seems like way too big if you ask me, that's a lot of money down that 
new sewer line.

On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 11:31 AM Forrest Christian (List Account) 
 wrote:

  I'm working on doing specs for a project (home) which will require burying 
new water and sewer lines on the property. 

  I'm tired of not being able to locate these after they're buried so I plan on 
having the contractor bury some tracer wire along with the plumbing.

  I've learned that the best option for things like this is to either spec or 
provide exactly what I want buried.   Otherwise you'll end up with some 
inexperienced contractor which installs something which won't work. 

  Apparently the choices for tracer wire are far more varied than I had 
expected.  Insulation,  metal type, gauge, color, and so on. 

  It looks like 14AWG copper HMWPE might be what I'm looking for.  But there 
are other options as well.Does any of this work better or is less (or more) 
likely to be damaged in a way which makes it untraceable?  I'm assuming green 
and blue will be needed for sewer and water. 

  I don't think the following will apply, but there is also the possibility 
that at least one of the lines won't terminate at one end anywhere that we can 
poke the wire up above the ground (tapping into existing line) I'm assuming 
that one can resolve this by laying a ground rod in the trench and terminating 
to that. 

  Any other things I should watch for here?
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Re: [AFMUG] Direct bury tracer wire reccomendations/experience.

[Josh Luthman]

That's a good point - the 24 gauge we use is part of the fiber
insulation that has fiberglass strength members.  I don't think you would
want to place insulated 24 gauge straight in the hole because it is weak.

>The question is how to ensure that section is locateable.
Yep ground rod it is.  This is what we do every 100-1500 feet in our
handholes for fiber (which is conducted via armor, no idea what that would
be in terms of gauge).

>thhn direct bury tracer wire fail,  or at least not be locatable past a
certain
Fail as in it broke?  Bigger cable would break less, but at what point do
you stop?  The 14 gauge sounds like a good option if that's what UDOT wants
and it's durable - it's just expensive.  If it's cheaper than a repair then
it absolutely makes sense.  How often are you digging up 3 foot water lines?



On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 12:05 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> 14 gauge is rugged and will last.  I think the gas company out here uses
> 14 gauge.  20 gauge on up is not terribly strong.  UDOT recently changed
> their spec for the tracer molded into MD7 microduct from 20 gauge to 14
> gauge.
>
> *From:* Josh Luthman
> *Sent:* Monday, January 9, 2023 9:37 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Direct bury tracer wire reccomendations/experience.
>
> Don't you have some random copper laying around?  Our fiber tracer wire is
> 24 awg.  Just place the conductive wire in the same hole as the water/sewer
> lines.  The color is kind of pointless but I guess you could spend the
> money and follow the rules *shrug*.
>
> If the wire ends the locate ends.  Why not just extend the wire with the
> new pipe?
>
> 14 gauge seems like way too big if you ask me, that's a lot of money down
> that new sewer line.
>
> On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 11:31 AM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
> li...@packetflux.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm working on doing specs for a project (home) which will require
>> burying new water and sewer lines on the property.
>>
>> I'm tired of not being able to locate these after they're buried so I
>> plan on having the contractor bury some tracer wire along with the plumbing.
>>
>> I've learned that the best option for things like this is to either spec
>> or provide exactly what I want buried.   Otherwise you'll end up with some
>> inexperienced contractor which installs something which won't work.
>>
>> Apparently the choices for tracer wire are far more varied than I had
>> expected.  Insulation,  metal type, gauge, color, and so on.
>>
>> It looks like 14AWG copper HMWPE might be what I'm looking for.  But
>> there are other options as well.Does any of this work better or is less
>> (or more) likely to be damaged in a way which makes it untraceable?  I'm
>> assuming green and blue will be needed for sewer and water.
>>
>> I don't think the following will apply, but there is also the possibility
>> that at least one of the lines won't terminate at one end anywhere that we
>> can poke the wire up above the ground (tapping into existing line) I'm
>> assuming that one can resolve this by laying a ground rod in the trench and
>> terminating to that.
>>
>> Any other things I should watch for here?
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
> --
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Re: [AFMUG] Direct bury tracer wire reccomendations/experience.

[Carl Peterson]

We specced safe-trace with 1800lb pullback strength for our current project
and will likely makenthat the standard for anything drilled in moving
forward.  Not sure it is overkill.

On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 11:05 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> 14 gauge is rugged and will last.  I think the gas company out here uses
> 14 gauge.  20 gauge on up is not terribly strong.  UDOT recently changed
> their spec for the tracer molded into MD7 microduct from 20 gauge to 14
> gauge.
>
> *From:* Josh Luthman
> *Sent:* Monday, January 9, 2023 9:37 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Direct bury tracer wire reccomendations/experience.
>
> Don't you have some random copper laying around?  Our fiber tracer wire is
> 24 awg.  Just place the conductive wire in the same hole as the water/sewer
> lines.  The color is kind of pointless but I guess you could spend the
> money and follow the rules *shrug*.
>
> If the wire ends the locate ends.  Why not just extend the wire with the
> new pipe?
>
> 14 gauge seems like way too big if you ask me, that's a lot of money down
> that new sewer line.
>
> On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 11:31 AM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
> li...@packetflux.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm working on doing specs for a project (home) which will require
>> burying new water and sewer lines on the property.
>>
>> I'm tired of not being able to locate these after they're buried so I
>> plan on having the contractor bury some tracer wire along with the plumbing.
>>
>> I've learned that the best option for things like this is to either spec
>> or provide exactly what I want buried.   Otherwise you'll end up with some
>> inexperienced contractor which installs something which won't work.
>>
>> Apparently the choices for tracer wire are far more varied than I had
>> expected.  Insulation,  metal type, gauge, color, and so on.
>>
>> It looks like 14AWG copper HMWPE might be what I'm looking for.  But
>> there are other options as well.Does any of this work better or is less
>> (or more) likely to be damaged in a way which makes it untraceable?  I'm
>> assuming green and blue will be needed for sewer and water.
>>
>> I don't think the following will apply, but there is also the possibility
>> that at least one of the lines won't terminate at one end anywhere that we
>> can poke the wire up above the ground (tapping into existing line) I'm
>> assuming that one can resolve this by laying a ground rod in the trench and
>> terminating to that.
>>
>> Any other things I should watch for here?
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
> --
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-- 

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*PORT NETWORKS*

401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553

Baltimore, MD 21202

(410) 637-3707
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Re: [AFMUG] Direct bury tracer wire reccomendations/experience.

[Chuck McCown via AF]

All these seem to be UF
https://www.plumbersstock.com/water-works/tracer-wire.html

From: Carl Peterson 
Sent: Monday, January 9, 2023 10:18 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Direct bury tracer wire reccomendations/experience.

We specced safe-trace with 1800lb pullback strength for our current project and 
will likely makenthat the standard for anything drilled in moving forward.  Not 
sure it is overkill.  

On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 11:05 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

  14 gauge is rugged and will last.  I think the gas company out here uses 14 
gauge.  20 gauge on up is not terribly strong.  UDOT recently changed their 
spec for the tracer molded into MD7 microduct from 20 gauge to 14 gauge.  

  From: Josh Luthman 
  Sent: Monday, January 9, 2023 9:37 AM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Direct bury tracer wire reccomendations/experience.

  Don't you have some random copper laying around?  Our fiber tracer wire is 24 
awg.  Just place the conductive wire in the same hole as the water/sewer lines. 
 The color is kind of pointless but I guess you could spend the money and 
follow the rules *shrug*. 

  If the wire ends the locate ends.  Why not just extend the wire with the new 
pipe?


  14 gauge seems like way too big if you ask me, that's a lot of money down 
that new sewer line.

  On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 11:31 AM Forrest Christian (List Account) 
 wrote:

I'm working on doing specs for a project (home) which will require burying 
new water and sewer lines on the property. 

I'm tired of not being able to locate these after they're buried so I plan 
on having the contractor bury some tracer wire along with the plumbing.

I've learned that the best option for things like this is to either spec or 
provide exactly what I want buried.   Otherwise you'll end up with some 
inexperienced contractor which installs something which won't work. 

Apparently the choices for tracer wire are far more varied than I had 
expected.  Insulation,  metal type, gauge, color, and so on. 

It looks like 14AWG copper HMWPE might be what I'm looking for.  But there 
are other options as well.Does any of this work better or is less (or more) 
likely to be damaged in a way which makes it untraceable?  I'm assuming green 
and blue will be needed for sewer and water. 

I don't think the following will apply, but there is also the possibility 
that at least one of the lines won't terminate at one end anywhere that we can 
poke the wire up above the ground (tapping into existing line) I'm assuming 
that one can resolve this by laying a ground rod in the trench and terminating 
to that. 

Any other things I should watch for here?
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PORT NETWORKS

401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553

Baltimore, MD 21202

(410) 637-3707 




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Re: [AFMUG] Direct bury tracer wire reccomendations/experience.

[Steve Jones]

stand over them when theyre putting it in to make sure they dont just
randomly toss it in the open trench. you dont want it toning out at a
different depth/horizontal because it coiled up. especially if theyre doing
a wide trench excavation.

On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 11:39 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> All these seem to be UF
> https://www.plumbersstock.com/water-works/tracer-wire.html
>
> *From:* Carl Peterson
> *Sent:* Monday, January 9, 2023 10:18 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Direct bury tracer wire reccomendations/experience.
>
> We specced safe-trace with 1800lb pullback strength for our current
> project and will likely makenthat the standard for anything drilled in
> moving forward.  Not sure it is overkill.
>
> On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 11:05 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> 14 gauge is rugged and will last.  I think the gas company out here uses
>> 14 gauge.  20 gauge on up is not terribly strong.  UDOT recently changed
>> their spec for the tracer molded into MD7 microduct from 20 gauge to 14
>> gauge.
>>
>> *From:* Josh Luthman
>> *Sent:* Monday, January 9, 2023 9:37 AM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Direct bury tracer wire
>> reccomendations/experience.
>>
>> Don't you have some random copper laying around?  Our fiber tracer wire
>> is 24 awg.  Just place the conductive wire in the same hole as the
>> water/sewer lines.  The color is kind of pointless but I guess you could
>> spend the money and follow the rules *shrug*.
>>
>> If the wire ends the locate ends.  Why not just extend the wire with the
>> new pipe?
>>
>> 14 gauge seems like way too big if you ask me, that's a lot of money down
>> that new sewer line.
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 11:31 AM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
>> li...@packetflux.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm working on doing specs for a project (home) which will require
>>> burying new water and sewer lines on the property.
>>>
>>> I'm tired of not being able to locate these after they're buried so I
>>> plan on having the contractor bury some tracer wire along with the plumbing.
>>>
>>> I've learned that the best option for things like this is to either spec
>>> or provide exactly what I want buried.   Otherwise you'll end up with some
>>> inexperienced contractor which installs something which won't work.
>>>
>>> Apparently the choices for tracer wire are far more varied than I had
>>> expected.  Insulation,  metal type, gauge, color, and so on.
>>>
>>> It looks like 14AWG copper HMWPE might be what I'm looking for.  But
>>> there are other options as well.Does any of this work better or is less
>>> (or more) likely to be damaged in a way which makes it untraceable?  I'm
>>> assuming green and blue will be needed for sewer and water.
>>>
>>> I don't think the following will apply, but there is also the
>>> possibility that at least one of the lines won't terminate at one end
>>> anywhere that we can poke the wire up above the ground (tapping into
>>> existing line) I'm assuming that one can resolve this by laying a ground
>>> rod in the trench and terminating to that.
>>>
>>> Any other things I should watch for here?
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>> --
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
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>>
>
>
> --
>
> Carl Peterson
>
> *PORT NETWORKS*
>
> 401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553
>
> Baltimore, MD 21202
>
> (410) 637-3707
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Direct bury tracer wire reccomendations/experience.

[Josh Luthman]

How big of a pipe would it have to be for that to be a concern?  I would
think ~3 inches of variance is within the spec of the locator.

On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 4:20 PM Steve Jones 
wrote:

> stand over them when theyre putting it in to make sure they dont just
> randomly toss it in the open trench. you dont want it toning out at a
> different depth/horizontal because it coiled up. especially if theyre doing
> a wide trench excavation.
>
> On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 11:39 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> All these seem to be UF
>> https://www.plumbersstock.com/water-works/tracer-wire.html
>>
>> *From:* Carl Peterson
>> *Sent:* Monday, January 9, 2023 10:18 AM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Direct bury tracer wire
>> reccomendations/experience.
>>
>> We specced safe-trace with 1800lb pullback strength for our current
>> project and will likely makenthat the standard for anything drilled in
>> moving forward.  Not sure it is overkill.
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 11:05 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> 14 gauge is rugged and will last.  I think the gas company out here uses
>>> 14 gauge.  20 gauge on up is not terribly strong.  UDOT recently changed
>>> their spec for the tracer molded into MD7 microduct from 20 gauge to 14
>>> gauge.
>>>
>>> *From:* Josh Luthman
>>> *Sent:* Monday, January 9, 2023 9:37 AM
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Direct bury tracer wire
>>> reccomendations/experience.
>>>
>>> Don't you have some random copper laying around?  Our fiber tracer wire
>>> is 24 awg.  Just place the conductive wire in the same hole as the
>>> water/sewer lines.  The color is kind of pointless but I guess you could
>>> spend the money and follow the rules *shrug*.
>>>
>>> If the wire ends the locate ends.  Why not just extend the wire with the
>>> new pipe?
>>>
>>> 14 gauge seems like way too big if you ask me, that's a lot of money
>>> down that new sewer line.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 11:31 AM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
>>> li...@packetflux.com> wrote:
>>>
 I'm working on doing specs for a project (home) which will require
 burying new water and sewer lines on the property.

 I'm tired of not being able to locate these after they're buried so I
 plan on having the contractor bury some tracer wire along with the 
 plumbing.

 I've learned that the best option for things like this is to either
 spec or provide exactly what I want buried.   Otherwise you'll end up with
 some inexperienced contractor which installs something which won't work.

 Apparently the choices for tracer wire are far more varied than I had
 expected.  Insulation,  metal type, gauge, color, and so on.

 It looks like 14AWG copper HMWPE might be what I'm looking for.  But
 there are other options as well.Does any of this work better or is less
 (or more) likely to be damaged in a way which makes it untraceable?  I'm
 assuming green and blue will be needed for sewer and water.

 I don't think the following will apply, but there is also the
 possibility that at least one of the lines won't terminate at one end
 anywhere that we can poke the wire up above the ground (tapping into
 existing line) I'm assuming that one can resolve this by laying a ground
 rod in the trench and terminating to that.

 Any other things I should watch for here?
 --
 AF mailing list
 AF@af.afmug.com
 http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

>>> --
>>> --
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>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Carl Peterson
>>
>> *PORT NETWORKS*
>>
>> 401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553
>>
>> Baltimore, MD 21202
>>
>> (410) 637-3707
>>
>> --
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Re: [AFMUG] Direct bury tracer wire reccomendations/experience.

[Chuck McCown via AF]

Most laws say 12” either side of the line is the protection zone.  So +-3” is 
plenty accurate.  If only they were all that accurate.  

From: Josh Luthman 
Sent: Monday, January 9, 2023 2:24 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Direct bury tracer wire reccomendations/experience.

How big of a pipe would it have to be for that to be a concern?  I would think 
~3 inches of variance is within the spec of the locator.

On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 4:20 PM Steve Jones  wrote:

  stand over them when theyre putting it in to make sure they dont just 
randomly toss it in the open trench. you dont want it toning out at a different 
depth/horizontal because it coiled up. especially if theyre doing a wide trench 
excavation.

  On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 11:39 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

All these seem to be UF
https://www.plumbersstock.com/water-works/tracer-wire.html

From: Carl Peterson 
Sent: Monday, January 9, 2023 10:18 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Direct bury tracer wire reccomendations/experience.

We specced safe-trace with 1800lb pullback strength for our current project 
and will likely makenthat the standard for anything drilled in moving forward.  
Not sure it is overkill.  

On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 11:05 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

  14 gauge is rugged and will last.  I think the gas company out here uses 
14 gauge.  20 gauge on up is not terribly strong.  UDOT recently changed their 
spec for the tracer molded into MD7 microduct from 20 gauge to 14 gauge.  

  From: Josh Luthman 
  Sent: Monday, January 9, 2023 9:37 AM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Direct bury tracer wire reccomendations/experience.

  Don't you have some random copper laying around?  Our fiber tracer wire 
is 24 awg.  Just place the conductive wire in the same hole as the water/sewer 
lines.  The color is kind of pointless but I guess you could spend the money 
and follow the rules *shrug*. 

  If the wire ends the locate ends.  Why not just extend the wire with the 
new pipe?


  14 gauge seems like way too big if you ask me, that's a lot of money down 
that new sewer line.

  On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 11:31 AM Forrest Christian (List Account) 
 wrote:

I'm working on doing specs for a project (home) which will require 
burying new water and sewer lines on the property. 

I'm tired of not being able to locate these after they're buried so I 
plan on having the contractor bury some tracer wire along with the plumbing.

I've learned that the best option for things like this is to either 
spec or provide exactly what I want buried.   Otherwise you'll end up with some 
inexperienced contractor which installs something which won't work. 

Apparently the choices for tracer wire are far more varied than I had 
expected.  Insulation,  metal type, gauge, color, and so on. 

It looks like 14AWG copper HMWPE might be what I'm looking for.  But 
there are other options as well.Does any of this work better or is less (or 
more) likely to be damaged in a way which makes it untraceable?  I'm assuming 
green and blue will be needed for sewer and water. 

I don't think the following will apply, but there is also the 
possibility that at least one of the lines won't terminate at one end anywhere 
that we can poke the wire up above the ground (tapping into existing line) I'm 
assuming that one can resolve this by laying a ground rod in the trench and 
terminating to that. 

Any other things I should watch for here?
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Carl Peterson


PORT NETWORKS

401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553

Baltimore, MD 21202

(410) 637-3707 



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Re: [AFMUG] Direct bury tracer wire reccomendations/experience.

[Steve Jones]

if youre paying to be able to trace, that trace should be exact, no
tolerance on installation. My locator it most of the time dead on.  The bug
concern is vertical. If the pipe is sitting at 48" but the trace is coiled
up to 24, some yahoo isnt gonna pothole and drill under it. Nobody gives a
shit about liability when their utility is blasted, they want their utility
back on. A sloppy trace also causes cut tracers that dont get spliced. We
are supposed to pothole to the side of the mark to avoid hitting the
utility top on.
If I was paying id spec the trace be attached to the product


On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 3:25 PM Josh Luthman 
wrote:

> How big of a pipe would it have to be for that to be a concern?  I would
> think ~3 inches of variance is within the spec of the locator.
>
> On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 4:20 PM Steve Jones 
> wrote:
>
>> stand over them when theyre putting it in to make sure they dont just
>> randomly toss it in the open trench. you dont want it toning out at a
>> different depth/horizontal because it coiled up. especially if theyre doing
>> a wide trench excavation.
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 11:39 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> All these seem to be UF
>>> https://www.plumbersstock.com/water-works/tracer-wire.html
>>>
>>> *From:* Carl Peterson
>>> *Sent:* Monday, January 9, 2023 10:18 AM
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Direct bury tracer wire
>>> reccomendations/experience.
>>>
>>> We specced safe-trace with 1800lb pullback strength for our current
>>> project and will likely makenthat the standard for anything drilled in
>>> moving forward.  Not sure it is overkill.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 11:05 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 14 gauge is rugged and will last.  I think the gas company out here
 uses 14 gauge.  20 gauge on up is not terribly strong.  UDOT recently
 changed their spec for the tracer molded into MD7 microduct from 20 gauge
 to 14 gauge.

 *From:* Josh Luthman
 *Sent:* Monday, January 9, 2023 9:37 AM
 *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
 *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Direct bury tracer wire
 reccomendations/experience.

 Don't you have some random copper laying around?  Our fiber tracer wire
 is 24 awg.  Just place the conductive wire in the same hole as the
 water/sewer lines.  The color is kind of pointless but I guess you could
 spend the money and follow the rules *shrug*.

 If the wire ends the locate ends.  Why not just extend the wire with
 the new pipe?

 14 gauge seems like way too big if you ask me, that's a lot of money
 down that new sewer line.

 On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 11:31 AM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
 li...@packetflux.com> wrote:

> I'm working on doing specs for a project (home) which will require
> burying new water and sewer lines on the property.
>
> I'm tired of not being able to locate these after they're buried so I
> plan on having the contractor bury some tracer wire along with the 
> plumbing.
>
> I've learned that the best option for things like this is to either
> spec or provide exactly what I want buried.   Otherwise you'll end up with
> some inexperienced contractor which installs something which won't work.
>
> Apparently the choices for tracer wire are far more varied than I had
> expected.  Insulation,  metal type, gauge, color, and so on.
>
> It looks like 14AWG copper HMWPE might be what I'm looking for.  But
> there are other options as well.Does any of this work better or is 
> less
> (or more) likely to be damaged in a way which makes it untraceable?  I'm
> assuming green and blue will be needed for sewer and water.
>
> I don't think the following will apply, but there is also the
> possibility that at least one of the lines won't terminate at one end
> anywhere that we can poke the wire up above the ground (tapping into
> existing line) I'm assuming that one can resolve this by laying a ground
> rod in the trench and terminating to that.
>
> Any other things I should watch for here?
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
 --
 --
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 AF@af.afmug.com
 http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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 AF@af.afmug.com
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Carl Peterson
>>>
>>> *PORT NETWORKS*
>>>
>>> 401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553
>>>
>>> Baltimore, MD 21202
>>>
>>> (410) 637-3707
>>>
>>> --
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>> --
>> AF mailing

Re: [AFMUG] backup power for small tower

[Jan-GAMs]

We are already using shielded ethernet cable.  The truck is parked about 
40ft from the pole with two heavy guage extension cords plugged into 
outlets at the base of the pole and about a 90 degree angle from the 
beam direction of one radio and 180 degrees from the other radio,  They 
would have to be purposefully jamming with higher power from inside the 
truck.  Of course these are ubiquiti plastic radios, not metal housings.


I'm trying to get my hands on some line-conditioners to see if that will 
make a difference.


On 1/9/23 08:37, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:

I'm suggesting on the AC line if that's where the noise is coming from.

My guess is one of two things:

1) somehow the truck is generating rf noise. For example they have a 
mobile Hotspot or signal booster or something like that. Or some other 
non obvious source.


2) the truck is generating noise on the electrical system.   Check for 
bad grounds, apply filtering, and so on.  Changing the shielding 
arrangement on the cat5 cable might help.   That is add/remove shield, try
 connecting/grounding the shield on both ends or just the top,  or 
just the bottom.   And try grounding the shield without connecting it 
to the radio.


The question here is where is the noise coming from.    One way to 
isolate the power as an option is to try running off a generator.   Or 
have the truck run off the generator.


On Mon, Jan 9, 2023, 9:06 AM Josh Luthman 
 wrote:


I had a 0% success rate with ferrite.

I have a 100% success rate with fiber (up the tower).

On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 10:57 AM Forrest Christian (List Account)
 wrote:

Agreed.   And if it's on the ethernet side, just adding some
ferrite chokes to the power line might fix the problem.   Or
switching to shielded cable.

On Mon, Jan 9, 2023, 7:52 AM Josh Luthman
 wrote:

Step 1 is to figure out where your packet loss is coming
from.  If it's interference on the RF side, changing to a
DC plant is a complete waste of time/money.

On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 9:21 AM  wrote:

Usually when people say "DC plant" they mean a
rectifier.  A charger + inverter like you proposed
would probably also count as having DC power plant.
I used one of these once:
https://www.aimscorp.net/12-Volt-Pure-Sine-Inverter-Chargers/
Worked fine, but no remote management.  I'm sure there
are a dozen options out there to pick from.

An isolation transformer might be a less intrusive
change.  Tripp Lite makes some affordable ones. On the
trip lite ones I had the hot and neutral were
isolated, but the ground passed straight through. 
Depending on where the noise is coming from that might
not fix it, but you can test an isolated ground by
snapping off the ground prong on the transformer or
using a 2-prong adapter.  I say "test" because you
shouldn't run without a ground permanently.




-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Jan-GAMs
Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2023 3:41 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] backup power for small tower

It's in a parking-lot of a business and they started
plugging their food truck into the power-source.  So
what do you mean by "DC plant"?

On 1/8/23 12:20, Bill Prince wrote:
> If your site is 100% DC-powered, the batteries
should provide all the
> isolation you need. My suggestion is to just switch
to DC plant.
>
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 1/8/2023 11:21 AM, Jan-GAMs wrote:
>> Ever since a food truck started plugging their
truck into the same
>> power source we use we've been experiencing severe
packet loss
>> through it.  Possibly electrical motor-hum? 
Anyway, I'm wondering
>> what is available or suggested to use to place a
better electrical
>> isolation for a battery backup in the box on the tower.
>>
>> We're using two ubiquiti radios one cheap ubiquiti
router and a Cisco
>> fiber to ether-net router.  We have a cyberpower
450va that provides
>> power for less than an hour when we have a power
outage. It would be
>> better if we could use something more hefty.  The
NEMA box is 2ft x
>> 2ft x 8in.  Inside is 2ft x 2ft x 6in.

Re: [AFMUG] backup power for small tower

[Chuck McCown via AF]

Maybe they are causing enough voltage drop to noise up your power supplies.
Have you checked the AC voltage?

From: Jan-GAMs 
Sent: Monday, January 9, 2023 3:50 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] backup power for small tower

We are already using shielded ethernet cable.  The truck is parked about 40ft 
from the pole with two heavy guage extension cords plugged into outlets at the 
base of the pole and about a 90 degree angle from the beam direction of one 
radio and 180 degrees from the other radio,  They would have to be purposefully 
jamming with higher power from inside the truck.  Of course these are ubiquiti 
plastic radios, not metal housings.


I'm trying to get my hands on some line-conditioners to see if that will make a 
difference.


On 1/9/23 08:37, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:

  I'm suggesting on the AC line if that's where the noise is coming from.  

  My guess is one of two things:

  1) somehow the truck is generating rf noise.  For example they have a mobile 
Hotspot or signal booster or something like that. Or some other non obvious 
source.

  2) the truck is generating noise on the electrical system.   Check for bad 
grounds, apply filtering, and so on.  Changing the shielding arrangement on the 
cat5 cable might help.   That is add/remove shield, try
  connecting/grounding the shield on both ends or just the top,  or just the 
bottom.   And try grounding the shield without connecting it to the radio.

  The question here is where is the noise coming from.One way to isolate 
the power as an option is to try running off a generator.   Or have the truck 
run off the generator. 

  On Mon, Jan 9, 2023, 9:06 AM Josh Luthman  wrote:

I had a 0% success rate with ferrite. 

I have a 100% success rate with fiber (up the tower).

On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 10:57 AM Forrest Christian (List Account) 
 wrote:

  Agreed.   And if it's on the ethernet side, just adding some ferrite 
chokes to the power line might fix the problem.   Or switching to shielded 
cable.

  On Mon, Jan 9, 2023, 7:52 AM Josh Luthman  
wrote:

Step 1 is to figure out where your packet loss is coming from.  If it's 
interference on the RF side, changing to a DC plant is a complete waste of 
time/money.

On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 9:21 AM  wrote:

  Usually when people say "DC plant" they mean a rectifier.  A charger 
+ inverter like you proposed would probably also count as having DC power plant.
  I used one of these once:  
https://www.aimscorp.net/12-Volt-Pure-Sine-Inverter-Chargers/
  Worked fine, but no remote management.  I'm sure there are a dozen 
options out there to pick from.

  An isolation transformer might be a less intrusive change.  Tripp 
Lite makes some affordable ones.  On the trip lite ones I had the hot and 
neutral were isolated, but the ground passed straight through.  Depending on 
where the noise is coming from that might not fix it, but you can test an 
isolated ground by snapping off the ground prong on the transformer or using a 
2-prong adapter.  I say "test" because you shouldn't run without a ground 
permanently.




  -Original Message-
  From: AF  On Behalf Of Jan-GAMs
  Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2023 3:41 PM
  To: af@af.afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] backup power for small tower

  It's in a parking-lot of a business and they started plugging their 
food truck into the power-source.  So what do you mean by "DC plant"?

  On 1/8/23 12:20, Bill Prince wrote:
  > If your site is 100% DC-powered, the batteries should provide all 
the 
  > isolation you need. My suggestion is to just switch to DC plant.
  >
  >
  > bp
  > 
  >
  > On 1/8/2023 11:21 AM, Jan-GAMs wrote:
  >> Ever since a food truck started plugging their truck into the same 
  >> power source we use we've been experiencing severe packet loss 
  >> through it.  Possibly electrical motor-hum?  Anyway, I'm wondering 
  >> what is available or suggested to use to place a better electrical 
  >> isolation for a battery backup in the box on the tower.
  >>
  >> We're using two ubiquiti radios one cheap ubiquiti router and a 
Cisco 
  >> fiber to ether-net router.  We have a cyberpower 450va that 
provides 
  >> power for less than an hour when we have a power outage. It would 
be 
  >> better if we could use something more hefty.  The NEMA box is 2ft 
x 
  >> 2ft x 8in.  Inside is 2ft x 2ft x 6in.  So there isn't much room.
  >>
  >> I'm thinking maybe a stack of batteries, a charger and a sine-wave 
  >> invertor?  Unless someone knows of a product that would do what's 
  >> needed?
  >>
  >>
  >

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Re: [AFMUG] Power excitement

[Chuck McCown via AF]

Wonder what caused it?

-Original Message- 
From: Nate Burke 
Sent: Monday, January 9, 2023 5:44 PM 
To: Animal Farm 
Subject: [AFMUG] Power excitement 


Always exciting when a camera is pointing in the right direction.






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Re: [AFMUG] Power excitement

[Darin Steffl]

I love how quick the generator started up. They waste no time when the grid
fails, do they? I would figure there would be a 10+ second delay or so to
see if the grid comes back up before it starts up.

On Mon, Jan 9, 2023, 8:52 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> Wonder what caused it?
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Nate Burke
> Sent: Monday, January 9, 2023 5:44 PM
> To: Animal Farm
> Subject: [AFMUG] Power excitement
>
> Always exciting when a camera is pointing in the right direction.
>
>
>
>
>
>
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