Re: [AFMUG] BDC

[Dennis Burgess]

It is on top of the current Form 477 requirements currently.


[LTI-Full_175px]
Dennis Burgess

Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
Office: 314-735-0270  Website: 
http://www.linktechs.net
Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net

From: AF  On Behalf Of Jason McKemie
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2022 3:39 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC

I haven't been reading up on this, is this the new form 477 replacement with 
increased requirements?

On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 2:51 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:
“Internet access”.  If I am strictly a layer 2 pipe providing transport - only 
then I am not a provider of internet.  If someone coincidentally connects it to 
layer 3 things... well then that is outside of my control.

From: Josh Luthman
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2022 1:41 PM
To: Chuck McCown
Cc: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC

>Facilities-based providers of fixed and mobile broadband internet access who 
>have one or more end user connections in service on June 30, 2022

On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 3:35 PM Chuck McCown 
mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com>> wrote:
But what types of business does it apply to?  I am sure that I can find a 
loophole.  Like I deliver virtual ice cream via ethernet so it should not apply 
to me.

From: Josh Luthman
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2022 12:47 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Cc: Chuck McCown
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC

Ethernet/GPON doesn't matter.  It's copper versus optical delivery. :)

On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 11:21 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:
I wonder if I can get away with being an ethernet service provider with free 
access to the internet thrown in...

From: Josh Luthman
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2022 8:33 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC

WISPA is absolutely fighting this.  We absolutely did not want this.  There's 
way more opposition than WISPA has resources, but we still did get some wins.

On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 11:12 PM Steve Jones 
mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I'm sure wispa is out there looking out for us
That is sarcasm
Wispa isnt what itwas when it lived in this neighborhood
I feel we all need to watch brokeback mountain to prepare what's coming

On Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 6:16 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:
Perhaps.  I am sure there will be things filed about this.

From: Brian Webster
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2022 4:46 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Cc: 'Chuck McCown'
Subject: RE: [AFMUG] BDC

Keep in mind that is a temp fix and only good for the next 18 months. Then the 
full PE cert is required.

Thank you,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2022 5:10 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Cc: Chuck McCown
Subject: [AFMUG] BDC

Starting to look into what I have to do.
Just read the certification requirements.  This is the language of the 
alternate, non PE, non degreed engineer certifier:
(ii) specialized training relevant to broadband network engineering and design, 
deployment, and/or performance, and at least ten years of relevant experience 
in broadband network engineering, design, and/or performance.

I am guessing everyone on this list fits this set of qualifications.
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Re: [AFMUG] BDC

[Dennis Burgess]

As a ISP you are required to do so..  Just a FYI..  



Dennis Burgess

Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition” 
Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services 
Office: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net 
Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com 
Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net 

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Seth Mattinen
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2022 4:10 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC

On 7/21/22 7:33 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:
> WISPA is absolutely fighting this.  We absolutely did not want this.  
> There's way more opposition than WISPA has resources, but we still did 
> get some wins.



Since shutting down the majority of my ISP operations I have literally 5 street 
addresses I will continue provide service at. I don't want to make a stupid map 
or have to get some PE to certify anything.

I will happly provide a list of the 5 addresses but anything beyond that seems 
like a clusterfuck of punishment.

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Re: [AFMUG] BDC

[Josh Luthman]

I wouldn't say it is on top, I'd say it is in parallel.  Same information
in two formats on two filings. (Though the 477 has voip because the FCC has
a huge hard on for phone lines).

On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 7:14 AM Dennis Burgess 
wrote:

> It is on top of the current Form 477 requirements currently.
>
>
>
>
>
> *[image: LTI-Full_175px]*
>
> *Dennis Burgess*
>
>
> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
>
> *Link Technologies, Inc* -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
>
> *Office*: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
>
> Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
>
> Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of * Jason McKemie
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 21, 2022 3:39 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BDC
>
>
>
> I haven't been reading up on this, is this the new form 477 replacement
> with increased requirements?
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 2:51 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
> “Internet access”.  If I am strictly a layer 2 pipe providing transport -
> only then I am not a provider of internet.  If someone coincidentally
> connects it to layer 3 things... well then that is outside of my control.
>
>
>
> *From:* Josh Luthman
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 21, 2022 1:41 PM
>
> *To:* Chuck McCown
>
> *Cc:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BDC
>
>
>
> >Facilities-based providers of fixed and mobile broadband internet access
> who have one or more end user connections in service on June 30, 2022
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 3:35 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
> But what types of business does it apply to?  I am sure that I can find a
> loophole.  Like I deliver virtual ice cream via ethernet so it should not
> apply to me.
>
>
>
> *From:* Josh Luthman
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 21, 2022 12:47 PM
>
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>
> *Cc:* Chuck McCown
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BDC
>
>
>
> Ethernet/GPON doesn't matter.  It's copper versus optical delivery. :)
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 11:21 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
> I wonder if I can get away with being an ethernet service provider with
> free access to the internet thrown in...
>
>
>
> *From:* Josh Luthman
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 21, 2022 8:33 AM
>
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BDC
>
>
>
> WISPA is absolutely fighting this.  We absolutely did not want this.
> There's way more opposition than WISPA has resources, but we still did get
> some wins.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 11:12 PM Steve Jones 
> wrote:
>
> I'm sure wispa is out there looking out for us
>
> That is sarcasm
>
> Wispa isnt what itwas when it lived in this neighborhood
>
> I feel we all need to watch brokeback mountain to prepare what's coming
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 6:16 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:
>
> Perhaps.  I am sure there will be things filed about this.
>
>
>
> *From:* Brian Webster
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 20, 2022 4:46 PM
>
> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
>
> *Cc:* 'Chuck McCown'
>
> *Subject:* RE: [AFMUG] BDC
>
>
>
> Keep in mind that is a temp fix and only good for the next 18 months. Then
> the full PE cert is required.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Brian Webster
>
> www.wirelessmapping.com
>
>
>
> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com ] *On
> Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 20, 2022 5:10 PM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Cc:* Chuck McCown
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] BDC
>
>
>
> Starting to look into what I have to do.
>
> Just read the certification requirements.  This is the language of the
> alternate, non PE, non degreed engineer certifier:
>
> (ii) specialized training relevant to broadband network engineering and
> design, deployment, and/or performance, and at least ten years of relevant
> experience in broadband network engineering, design, and/or performance.
>
>
>
> I am guessing everyone on this list fits this set of qualifications.
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
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> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
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> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] BDC

[Cameron Crum]

Yeah, it's a stupid requirement s most EE PEs don't know jack about
wireless and probably less about fiber. I happen to know a couple guys who
bothered to get their PE, but I know I never did simply because there
wasn't even a test for what I do. They want you to take the power systems
and control systems exam if you are an RF guy. IT really is dumb and I
think they are just trying to weed out the smaller guys who will be forced
into a financial hardship.


On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 4:53 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> The waiver should be made permanent.  The quality of the data will not
> suffer.
>
> *From:* Cameron Crum
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 21, 2022 3:47 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BDC
>
> Understood. We can work with very small providers. We aren't trying to put
> anyone out of business. We do have some fixed costs like the PE unless you
> want to self certify. I believe you qualify, or will at least for the
> waiver on the next 3 filings.
>
> Cameron
>
> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 4:36 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> Yes, but your solution is equivalent to my annual net profit as I am such
>> a new and small company.  I am complaining to the FCC penury.
>>
>> *From:* Cameron Crum
>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 21, 2022 3:23 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BDC
>>
>> We have a solution for filing  with PE certification at
>> www.regulatorysolutions.us if you need assistance.
>>
>> Cameron
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 4:17 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Not a new version but a whole new other report in addition to 477 I
>>> think.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Jul 21, 2022, at 2:39 PM, Jason McKemie <
>>> j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>> I haven't been reading up on this, is this the new form 477 replacement
>>> with increased requirements?
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 2:51 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 “Internet access”.  If I am strictly a layer 2 pipe providing transport
 - only then I am not a provider of internet.  If someone coincidentally
 connects it to layer 3 things... well then that is outside of my control.

 *From:* Josh Luthman
 *Sent:* Thursday, July 21, 2022 1:41 PM
 *To:* Chuck McCown
 *Cc:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
 *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BDC

 >Facilities-based providers of fixed and mobile broadband internet
 access who have one or more end user connections in service on June 30, 
 2022

 On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 3:35 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:

> But what types of business does it apply to?  I am sure that I can
> find a loophole.  Like I deliver virtual ice cream via ethernet so it
> should not apply to me.
>
> *From:* Josh Luthman
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 21, 2022 12:47 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Cc:* Chuck McCown
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BDC
>
> Ethernet/GPON doesn't matter.  It's copper versus optical delivery. :)
>
> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 11:21 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> I wonder if I can get away with being an ethernet service provider
>> with free access to the internet thrown in...
>>
>> *From:* Josh Luthman
>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 21, 2022 8:33 AM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BDC
>>
>> WISPA is absolutely fighting this.  We absolutely did not want this.
>> There's way more opposition than WISPA has resources, but we still did 
>> get
>> some wins.
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 11:12 PM Steve Jones <
>> thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm sure wispa is out there looking out for us
>>> That is sarcasm
>>> Wispa isnt what itwas when it lived in this neighborhood
>>> I feel we all need to watch brokeback mountain to prepare what's
>>> coming
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 6:16 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Perhaps.  I am sure there will be things filed about this.

 *From:* Brian Webster
 *Sent:* Wednesday, July 20, 2022 4:46 PM
 *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
 *Cc:* 'Chuck McCown'
 *Subject:* RE: [AFMUG] BDC


 Keep in mind that is a temp fix and only good for the next 18
 months. Then the full PE cert is required.



 Thank you,

 Brian Webster

 www.wirelessmapping.com



 *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Chuck
 McCown via AF
 *Sent:* Wednesday, July 20, 2022 5:10 PM
 *To:* af@af.afmug.com
 *Cc:* Chuck McCown
 *Subject:* [AFMUG] BDC



 Starting to look into what I have to do.

 Just read the certification requirements.  This

Re: [AFMUG] BDC

[Chuck McCown via AF]

I was in the same boat.  They had a presentation for the EIT program (engineer 
in training) which I guess you had to do if you wanted to sit for the PE exam 
later after you got your work hour qualification.  I kinda wish now I had done 
it but I would have never worked for a PE.  Like you I was all about RF in 
college.  

From: Cameron Crum 
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2022 8:35 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC

Yeah, it's a stupid requirement s most EE PEs don't know jack about wireless 
and probably less about fiber. I happen to know a couple guys who bothered to 
get their PE, but I know I never did simply because there wasn't even a test 
for what I do. They want you to take the power systems and control systems exam 
if you are an RF guy. IT really is dumb and I think they are just trying to 
weed out the smaller guys who will be forced into a financial hardship. 


On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 4:53 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

  The waiver should be made permanent.  The quality of the data will not 
suffer.  

  From: Cameron Crum 
  Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2022 3:47 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC

  Understood. We can work with very small providers. We aren't trying to put 
anyone out of business. We do have some fixed costs like the PE unless you want 
to self certify. I believe you qualify, or will at least for the waiver on the 
next 3 filings.  

  Cameron

  On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 4:36 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

Yes, but your solution is equivalent to my annual net profit as I am such a 
new and small company.  I am complaining to the FCC penury.  

From: Cameron Crum 
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2022 3:23 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC

We have a solution for filing  with PE certification at 
www.regulatorysolutions.us if you need assistance. 

Cameron

On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 4:17 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

  Not a new version but a whole new other report in addition to 477 I think.


  Sent from my iPhone


On Jul 21, 2022, at 2:39 PM, Jason McKemie 
 wrote:


 
I haven't been reading up on this, is this the new form 477 replacement 
with increased requirements?

On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 2:51 PM Chuck McCown via AF  
wrote:

  “Internet access”.  If I am strictly a layer 2 pipe providing 
transport - only then I am not a provider of internet.  If someone 
coincidentally connects it to layer 3 things... well then that is outside of my 
control.  

  From: Josh Luthman 
  Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2022 1:41 PM
  To: Chuck McCown 
  Cc: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC

  >Facilities-based providers of fixed and mobile broadband internet 
access who have one or more end user connections in service on June 30, 2022

  On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 3:35 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:

But what types of business does it apply to?  I am sure that I can 
find a loophole.  Like I deliver virtual ice cream via ethernet so it should 
not apply to me.  

From: Josh Luthman 
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2022 12:47 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: Chuck McCown 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC

Ethernet/GPON doesn't matter.  It's copper versus optical delivery. 
:)

On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 11:21 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
 wrote:

  I wonder if I can get away with being an ethernet service 
provider with free access to the internet thrown in...

  From: Josh Luthman 
  Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2022 8:33 AM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC

  WISPA is absolutely fighting this.  We absolutely did not want 
this.  There's way more opposition than WISPA has resources, but we still did 
get some wins.

  On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 11:12 PM Steve Jones 
 wrote:

I'm sure wispa is out there looking out for us 
That is sarcasm 
Wispa isnt what itwas when it lived in this neighborhood
I feel we all need to watch brokeback mountain to prepare 
what's coming

On Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 6:16 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
 wrote:

  Perhaps.  I am sure there will be things filed about this.  

  From: Brian Webster 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2022 4:46 PM
  To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
  Cc: 'Chuck McCown' 
  Subject: RE: [AFMUG] BDC

  Keep in mind that is a temp fix and only good for the next 18 
months. Then the full PE cert is required.



  Thank you,

  Brian Webster

  www.wirelessmapping.com



  

Re: [AFMUG] BDC

[Chuck McCown via AF]

Would have never worked “as” a PE.  Moreover, you are exposed to liability if 
you stamp something.  

From: Chuck McCown via AF 
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2022 9:20 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: Chuck McCown 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC

I was in the same boat.  They had a presentation for the EIT program (engineer 
in training) which I guess you had to do if you wanted to sit for the PE exam 
later after you got your work hour qualification.  I kinda wish now I had done 
it but I would have never worked for a PE.  Like you I was all about RF in 
college.  

From: Cameron Crum 
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2022 8:35 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC

Yeah, it's a stupid requirement s most EE PEs don't know jack about wireless 
and probably less about fiber. I happen to know a couple guys who bothered to 
get their PE, but I know I never did simply because there wasn't even a test 
for what I do. They want you to take the power systems and control systems exam 
if you are an RF guy. IT really is dumb and I think they are just trying to 
weed out the smaller guys who will be forced into a financial hardship. 


On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 4:53 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

  The waiver should be made permanent.  The quality of the data will not 
suffer.  

  From: Cameron Crum 
  Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2022 3:47 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC

  Understood. We can work with very small providers. We aren't trying to put 
anyone out of business. We do have some fixed costs like the PE unless you want 
to self certify. I believe you qualify, or will at least for the waiver on the 
next 3 filings.  

  Cameron

  On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 4:36 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

Yes, but your solution is equivalent to my annual net profit as I am such a 
new and small company.  I am complaining to the FCC penury.  

From: Cameron Crum 
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2022 3:23 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC

We have a solution for filing  with PE certification at 
www.regulatorysolutions.us if you need assistance. 

Cameron

On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 4:17 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

  Not a new version but a whole new other report in addition to 477 I think.


  Sent from my iPhone


On Jul 21, 2022, at 2:39 PM, Jason McKemie 
 wrote:


 
I haven't been reading up on this, is this the new form 477 replacement 
with increased requirements?

On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 2:51 PM Chuck McCown via AF  
wrote:

  “Internet access”.  If I am strictly a layer 2 pipe providing 
transport - only then I am not a provider of internet.  If someone 
coincidentally connects it to layer 3 things... well then that is outside of my 
control.  

  From: Josh Luthman 
  Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2022 1:41 PM
  To: Chuck McCown 
  Cc: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC

  >Facilities-based providers of fixed and mobile broadband internet 
access who have one or more end user connections in service on June 30, 2022

  On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 3:35 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:

But what types of business does it apply to?  I am sure that I can 
find a loophole.  Like I deliver virtual ice cream via ethernet so it should 
not apply to me.  

From: Josh Luthman 
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2022 12:47 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: Chuck McCown 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC

Ethernet/GPON doesn't matter.  It's copper versus optical delivery. 
:)

On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 11:21 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
 wrote:

  I wonder if I can get away with being an ethernet service 
provider with free access to the internet thrown in...

  From: Josh Luthman 
  Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2022 8:33 AM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC

  WISPA is absolutely fighting this.  We absolutely did not want 
this.  There's way more opposition than WISPA has resources, but we still did 
get some wins.

  On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 11:12 PM Steve Jones 
 wrote:

I'm sure wispa is out there looking out for us 
That is sarcasm 
Wispa isnt what itwas when it lived in this neighborhood
I feel we all need to watch brokeback mountain to prepare 
what's coming

On Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 6:16 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
 wrote:

  Perhaps.  I am sure there will be things filed about this.  

  From: Brian Webster 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2022 4:46 PM
  To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
  Cc: 'Chuck McCown' 
  Subject: RE: [AFMUG] BDC

 

Re: [AFMUG] BDC

[Mark Radabaugh]

I could get my PE but I have zero interest in relearning all of the EIT 
(renamed something else now) that is part of the book exam.   But to your point 
- nothing in my EE had any specific relevance to what we do on a day to day 
basis.   Fiber was a curiosity at the time, and phased array antennas were 
cutting edge.  

I still think the FCC / etc. is getting a little too hung up on the PE 
requirement - I’m not convinced they actually required a state certified 
Professional Engineer (Capital P) in the first place. Ohio specifically 
says:

(A) Except for an individual who, as part of the internal classification system 
of the individual's employer, uses the title "engineer" by itself or in 
conjunction with another term described in division (B) of this section and who 
does not represent the individual's self to the public or otherwise advertise 
the individual's self as an engineer, no individual shall, in connection with 
the individual's name, assume, use, or advertise:

(1) The title "engineer" by itself unless the individual is an engineer;

(2) The title "engineer" in conjunction with another term that modifies the 
title "engineer" in a manner that conveys the impression that the individual is 
a graduate of an accredited engineering curriculum unless the individual is a 
graduate of an accredited engineering curriculum.

(B) Terms used in conjunction with the title "engineer" under division (A)(2) 
of this section that imply a person is a graduate of an accredited engineering 
curriculum include the following: "aerospace," "agricultural," "civil," 
"chemical," "computer," "electrical," "industrial," "mechanics," "mechanical," 
"metallurgical," "mining," "naval architectural and marine," "nuclear," and any 
other term commonly used by an institution of higher learning to apply to 
graduates of an accredited engineering curriculum.

The FCC said (in the waiver) "we agree that, under the Commission’s rules, 
where a mobile or fixed service provider submits a certification of the 
accuracy of its broadband submissions from a “corporate engineering officer,” 
the corporate engineering officer does not need to be a certified PE.  We 
believe that the rule would be satisfied, for example, where the corporate 
officer possesses at least a Bachelor of Science (B.S.) in engineering degree 
and has both “direct knowledge” of, and responsibility for, the carrier’s 
network design and construction.

To my reading I can specifically state that I am an engineer with a BSEE acting 
in my capacity with the company, and not violate Ohio law in doing so.

Mark






> On Jul 22, 2022, at 10:35 AM, Cameron Crum  wrote:
> 
> Yeah, it's a stupid requirement s most EE PEs don't know jack about wireless 
> and probably less about fiber. I happen to know a couple guys who bothered to 
> get their PE, but I know I never did simply because there wasn't even a test 
> for what I do. They want you to take the power systems and control systems 
> exam if you are an RF guy. IT really is dumb and I think they are just trying 
> to weed out the smaller guys who will be forced into a financial hardship.
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 4:53 PM Chuck McCown via AF  > wrote:
> The waiver should be made permanent.  The quality of the data will not 
> suffer. 
>  
> From: Cameron Crum <>
> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2022 3:47 PM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <>
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC
>  
> Understood. We can work with very small providers. We aren't trying to put 
> anyone out of business. We do have some fixed costs like the PE unless you 
> want to self certify. I believe you qualify, or will at least for the waiver 
> on the next 3 filings. 
>  
> Cameron
>  
> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 4:36 PM Chuck McCown via AF > 
> wrote:
> Yes, but your solution is equivalent to my annual net profit as I am such a 
> new and small company.  I am complaining to the FCC penury. 
>  
> From: Cameron Crum <>
> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2022 3:23 PM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <>
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC
>  
> We have a solution for filing  with PE certification at 
> www.regulatorysolutions.us  if you need 
> assistance.
>  
> Cameron
>  
> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 4:17 PM Chuck McCown via AF > 
> wrote:
> Not a new version but a whole new other report in addition to 477 I think.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jul 21, 2022, at 2:39 PM, Jason McKemie > <>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I haven't been reading up on this, is this the new form 477 replacement with 
>> increased requirements?
>>  
>> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 2:51 PM Chuck McCown via AF > 
>> wrote:
>> “Internet access”.  If I am strictly a layer 2 pipe providing transport - 
>> only then I am not a provider of internet.  If someone coincidentally 
>> connects it to layer 3 things... well then that is outside of my control. 
>>  
>> From: Josh Luthman <>
>> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2022 1:41 PM
>> To: Chuck Mc

Re: [AFMUG] BDC

[Cameron Crum]

Yeah they are allowing that for the next 3 cycles. After that, we'll see.

On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 10:35 AM Mark Radabaugh  wrote:

> I could get my PE but I have zero interest in relearning all of the EIT
> (renamed something else now) that is part of the book exam.   But to your
> point - nothing in my EE had any specific relevance to what we do on a day
> to day basis.   Fiber was a curiosity at the time, and phased array
> antennas were cutting edge.
>
> I still think the FCC / etc. is getting a little too hung up on the PE
> requirement - I’m not convinced they actually required a state certified
> Professional Engineer (Capital P) in the first place. Ohio specifically
> says:
>
> (A) Except for an individual who, as part of the internal classification
> system of the individual's employer, uses the title "engineer" by itself or
> in conjunction with another term described in division (B) of this section
> and who does not represent the individual's self to the public or otherwise
> advertise the individual's self as an engineer, no individual shall, in
> connection with the individual's name, assume, use, or advertise:
>
> (1) The title "engineer" by itself unless the individual is an engineer;
>
> (2) The title "engineer" in conjunction with another term that modifies
> the title "engineer" in a manner that conveys the impression that the
> individual is a graduate of an accredited engineering curriculum unless the
> individual is a graduate of an accredited engineering curriculum.
>
> (B) Terms used in conjunction with the title "engineer" under division
> (A)(2) of this section that imply a person is a graduate of an accredited
> engineering curriculum include the following: "aerospace," "agricultural,"
> "civil," "chemical," "computer," "electrical," "industrial," "mechanics,"
> "mechanical," "metallurgical," "mining," "naval architectural and marine,"
> "nuclear," and any other term commonly used by an institution of higher
> learning to apply to graduates of an accredited engineering curriculum.
>
> The FCC said (in the waiver) "we agree that, under the Commission’s rules,
> where a mobile or fixed service provider submits a certification of the
> accuracy of its broadband submissions from a “corporate engineering
> officer,” the corporate engineering officer does not need to be a certified
> PE.  We believe that the rule would be satisfied, for example, where the
> corporate officer possesses at least a Bachelor of Science (B.S.) in
> engineering degree and has both “direct knowledge” of, and responsibility
> for, the carrier’s network design and construction.
>
> To my reading I can specifically state that I am an engineer with a BSEE
> acting in my capacity with the company, and not violate Ohio law in doing
> so.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 22, 2022, at 10:35 AM, Cameron Crum  wrote:
>
> Yeah, it's a stupid requirement s most EE PEs don't know jack about
> wireless and probably less about fiber. I happen to know a couple guys who
> bothered to get their PE, but I know I never did simply because there
> wasn't even a test for what I do. They want you to take the power systems
> and control systems exam if you are an RF guy. IT really is dumb and I
> think they are just trying to weed out the smaller guys who will be forced
> into a financial hardship.
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 4:53 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> The waiver should be made permanent.  The quality of the data will not
>> suffer.
>>
>> *From:* Cameron Crum
>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 21, 2022 3:47 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BDC
>>
>> Understood. We can work with very small providers. We aren't trying to
>> put anyone out of business. We do have some fixed costs like the PE unless
>> you want to self certify. I believe you qualify, or will at least for the
>> waiver on the next 3 filings.
>>
>> Cameron
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 4:36 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, but your solution is equivalent to my annual net profit as I am
>>> such a new and small company.  I am complaining to the FCC penury.
>>>
>>> *From:* Cameron Crum
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 21, 2022 3:23 PM
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BDC
>>>
>>> We have a solution for filing  with PE certification at
>>> www.regulatorysolutions.us if you need assistance.
>>>
>>> Cameron
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 4:17 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Not a new version but a whole new other report in addition to 477 I
 think.

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Jul 21, 2022, at 2:39 PM, Jason McKemie <
 j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote:

 
 I haven't been reading up on this, is this the new form 477 replacement
 with increased requirements?

 On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 2:51 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
 wrote:

> “Internet access”.  If I am strictly a layer 2 pipe providing
> transport - only then I

Re: [AFMUG] BDC

[Cameron Crum]

Agreed, and that is why they are expensive. They aren't just stamping
something without review and knowing what it is.

On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 10:34 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
wrote:

> Would have never worked “as” a PE.  Moreover, you are exposed to liability
> if you stamp something.
>
> *From:* Chuck McCown via AF
> *Sent:* Friday, July 22, 2022 9:20 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Cc:* Chuck McCown
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BDC
>
> I was in the same boat.  They had a presentation for the EIT program
> (engineer in training) which I guess you had to do if you wanted to sit for
> the PE exam later after you got your work hour qualification.  I kinda wish
> now I had done it but I would have never worked for a PE.  Like you I was
> all about RF in college.
>
> *From:* Cameron Crum
> *Sent:* Friday, July 22, 2022 8:35 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BDC
>
> Yeah, it's a stupid requirement s most EE PEs don't know jack about
> wireless and probably less about fiber. I happen to know a couple guys who
> bothered to get their PE, but I know I never did simply because there
> wasn't even a test for what I do. They want you to take the power systems
> and control systems exam if you are an RF guy. IT really is dumb and I
> think they are just trying to weed out the smaller guys who will be forced
> into a financial hardship.
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 4:53 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> The waiver should be made permanent.  The quality of the data will not
>> suffer.
>>
>> *From:* Cameron Crum
>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 21, 2022 3:47 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BDC
>>
>> Understood. We can work with very small providers. We aren't trying to
>> put anyone out of business. We do have some fixed costs like the PE unless
>> you want to self certify. I believe you qualify, or will at least for the
>> waiver on the next 3 filings.
>>
>> Cameron
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 4:36 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, but your solution is equivalent to my annual net profit as I am
>>> such a new and small company.  I am complaining to the FCC penury.
>>>
>>> *From:* Cameron Crum
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 21, 2022 3:23 PM
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BDC
>>>
>>> We have a solution for filing  with PE certification at
>>> www.regulatorysolutions.us if you need assistance.
>>>
>>> Cameron
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 4:17 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Not a new version but a whole new other report in addition to 477 I
 think.

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Jul 21, 2022, at 2:39 PM, Jason McKemie <
 j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote:

 
 I haven't been reading up on this, is this the new form 477 replacement
 with increased requirements?

 On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 2:51 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
 wrote:

> “Internet access”.  If I am strictly a layer 2 pipe providing
> transport - only then I am not a provider of internet.  If someone
> coincidentally connects it to layer 3 things... well then that is outside
> of my control.
>
> *From:* Josh Luthman
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 21, 2022 1:41 PM
> *To:* Chuck McCown
> *Cc:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BDC
>
> >Facilities-based providers of fixed and mobile broadband internet
> access who have one or more end user connections in service on June 30, 
> 2022
>
> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 3:35 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
>> But what types of business does it apply to?  I am sure that I can
>> find a loophole.  Like I deliver virtual ice cream via ethernet so it
>> should not apply to me.
>>
>> *From:* Josh Luthman
>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 21, 2022 12:47 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Cc:* Chuck McCown
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BDC
>>
>> Ethernet/GPON doesn't matter.  It's copper versus optical delivery. :)
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 11:21 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I wonder if I can get away with being an ethernet service provider
>>> with free access to the internet thrown in...
>>>
>>> *From:* Josh Luthman
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 21, 2022 8:33 AM
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BDC
>>>
>>> WISPA is absolutely fighting this.  We absolutely did not want
>>> this.  There's way more opposition than WISPA has resources, but we 
>>> still
>>> did get some wins.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 11:12 PM Steve Jones <
>>> thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 I'm sure wispa is out there looking out for us
 That is sarcasm
 Wispa isnt what itwas when it lived in this neighborhood
 I feel we all need to watch brokeback mountain to prepare what's
>>>

Re: [AFMUG] BDC

[Chuck McCown via AF]

I can understanding the FCC wanting someone to hang for submitting puffed up 
coverage info.  They think this is going to guarantee accuracy of the results 
and prevent any challenges.  If there are challenges then it will pit PE 
against PE.  Not so sure this is going to accomplish what they want.  I don’t 
overstate my reach or capability.  I am fiber.  The reach is finite and 
inarguable.  The gear I use has finite and inarguable capacity.  However with 
fiber I guess I can I can give you a Tbps theoretically.  I don’t think this is 
a problem for fixed providers.  We either cover an area or we do not.  With 
wireless, everyone can fudge the map.  I would guess that is what the FCC is 
trying to stop.  

From: Mark Radabaugh 
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2022 9:32 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC

I could get my PE but I have zero interest in relearning all of the EIT 
(renamed something else now) that is part of the book exam.   But to your point 
- nothing in my EE had any specific relevance to what we do on a day to day 
basis.   Fiber was a curiosity at the time, and phased array antennas were 
cutting edge.   

I still think the FCC / etc. is getting a little too hung up on the PE 
requirement - I’m not convinced they actually required a state certified 
Professional Engineer (Capital P) in the first place. Ohio specifically 
says:

  (A) Except for an individual who, as part of the internal classification 
system of the individual's employer, uses the title "engineer" by itself or in 
conjunction with another term described in division (B) of this section and who 
does not represent the individual's self to the public or otherwise advertise 
the individual's self as an engineer, no individual shall, in connection with 
the individual's name, assume, use, or advertise:

  (1) The title "engineer" by itself unless the individual is an engineer;

  (2) The title "engineer" in conjunction with another term that modifies the 
title "engineer" in a manner that conveys the impression that the individual is 
a graduate of an accredited engineering curriculum unless the individual is a 
graduate of an accredited engineering curriculum.

  (B) Terms used in conjunction with the title "engineer" under division (A)(2) 
of this section that imply a person is a graduate of an accredited engineering 
curriculum include the following: "aerospace," "agricultural," "civil," 
"chemical," "computer," "electrical," "industrial," "mechanics," "mechanical," 
"metallurgical," "mining," "naval architectural and marine," "nuclear," and any 
other term commonly used by an institution of higher learning to apply to 
graduates of an accredited engineering curriculum.

The FCC said (in the waiver) "we agree that, under the Commission’s rules, 
where a mobile or fixed service provider submits a certification of the 
accuracy of its broadband submissions from a “corporate engineering officer,” 
the corporate engineering officer does not need to be a certified PE.  We 
believe that the rule would be satisfied, for example, where the corporate 
officer possesses at least a Bachelor of Science (B.S.) in engineering degree 
and has both “direct knowledge” of, and responsibility for, the carrier’s 
network design and construction. 

To my reading I can specifically state that I am an engineer with a BSEE acting 
in my capacity with the company, and not violate Ohio law in doing so.

Mark








  On Jul 22, 2022, at 10:35 AM, Cameron Crum  wrote:

  Yeah, it's a stupid requirement s most EE PEs don't know jack about wireless 
and probably less about fiber. I happen to know a couple guys who bothered to 
get their PE, but I know I never did simply because there wasn't even a test 
for what I do. They want you to take the power systems and control systems exam 
if you are an RF guy. IT really is dumb and I think they are just trying to 
weed out the smaller guys who will be forced into a financial hardship. 


  On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 4:53 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

The waiver should be made permanent.  The quality of the data will not 
suffer.  

From: Cameron Crum 
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2022 3:47 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC

Understood. We can work with very small providers. We aren't trying to put 
anyone out of business. We do have some fixed costs like the PE unless you want 
to self certify. I believe you qualify, or will at least for the waiver on the 
next 3 filings.  

Cameron

On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 4:36 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

  Yes, but your solution is equivalent to my annual net profit as I am such 
a new and small company.  I am complaining to the FCC penury.  

  From: Cameron Crum 
  Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2022 3:23 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC

  We have a solution for filing  with PE certification at 
www.regulatorysolutions.us if yo

Re: [AFMUG] BDC

[Mark Radabaugh]

This is 47 CFR 1.7004:

(d) Providers shall include in each Digital Opportunity Data Collection filing 
a certification signed by a corporate officer of the provider that the officer 
has examined the information contained in the submission and that, to the best 
of the officer's actual knowledge, information, and belief, all statements of 
fact contained in the submission are true and correct. All providers also shall 
submit a certification of the accuracy of its submissions by a qualified 
engineer. The engineering certification shall state 

 that the certified professional engineer or corporate engineering officer is 
employed by the provider and has direct knowledge of, or responsibility for, 
the generation of the provider's Digital Opportunity Data Collection filing.


The law itself says “or corporate engineering officer….”.  While the waiver 
itself will expire, that expiration doesn’t change the underlying law.

I actually think CCA screwed this up asking for the waiver in the first place. 

What the waiver actually ORDERED is "that this Declaratory Ruling is ADOPTED 
and section 1.7004(d), 47 CFR §1.7004(d) is WAIVED to the extent indicated 
herein.”

It doesn’t change the original statement that a corporate engineering officer 
can certify the filing, with or without the waiver.If your engineer has the 
required degree and you make them a corporate engineering officer (and I’ll let 
the lawyers deal with what making an employee an officer means) you still don’t 
need a PE to my reading.

Mark 


> On Jul 22, 2022, at 11:45 AM, Cameron Crum  wrote:
> 
> Yeah they are allowing that for the next 3 cycles. After that, we'll see.
> 
> On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 10:35 AM Mark Radabaugh  > wrote:
> I could get my PE but I have zero interest in relearning all of the EIT 
> (renamed something else now) that is part of the book exam.   But to your 
> point - nothing in my EE had any specific relevance to what we do on a day to 
> day basis.   Fiber was a curiosity at the time, and phased array antennas 
> were cutting edge.  
> 
> I still think the FCC / etc. is getting a little too hung up on the PE 
> requirement - I’m not convinced they actually required a state certified 
> Professional Engineer (Capital P) in the first place. Ohio specifically 
> says:
> 
> (A) Except for an individual who, as part of the internal classification 
> system of the individual's employer, uses the title "engineer" by itself or 
> in conjunction with another term described in division (B) of this section 
> and who does not represent the individual's self to the public or otherwise 
> advertise the individual's self as an engineer, no individual shall, in 
> connection with the individual's name, assume, use, or advertise:
> 
> (1) The title "engineer" by itself unless the individual is an engineer;
> 
> (2) The title "engineer" in conjunction with another term that modifies the 
> title "engineer" in a manner that conveys the impression that the individual 
> is a graduate of an accredited engineering curriculum unless the individual 
> is a graduate of an accredited engineering curriculum.
> 
> (B) Terms used in conjunction with the title "engineer" under division (A)(2) 
> of this section that imply a person is a graduate of an accredited 
> engineering curriculum include the following: "aerospace," "agricultural," 
> "civil," "chemical," "computer," "electrical," "industrial," "mechanics," 
> "mechanical," "metallurgical," "mining," "naval architectural and marine," 
> "nuclear," and any other term commonly used by an institution of higher 
> learning to apply to graduates of an accredited engineering curriculum.
> 
> The FCC said (in the waiver) "we agree that, under the Commission’s rules, 
> where a mobile or fixed service provider submits a certification of the 
> accuracy of its broadband submissions from a “corporate engineering officer,” 
> the corporate engineering officer does not need to be a certified PE.  We 
> believe that the rule would be satisfied, for example, where the corporate 
> officer possesses at least a Bachelor of Science (B.S.) in engineering degree 
> and has both “direct knowledge” of, and responsibility for, the carrier’s 
> network design and construction.
> 
> To my reading I can specifically state that I am an engineer with a BSEE 
> acting in my capacity with the company, and not violate Ohio law in doing so.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jul 22, 2022, at 10:35 AM, Cameron Crum > > wrote:
>> 
>> Yeah, it's a stupid requirement s most EE PEs don't know jack about wireless 
>> and probably less about fiber. I happen to know a couple guys who bothered 
>> to get their PE, but I know I never did simply because there wasn't e

Re: [AFMUG] BDC

[Cameron Crum]

Yeah, there has been a lot of discussion about this in the 2nd and 3rd
report and orders. They have said it is a PE requirement except for the 3
cycle waiver. Good luck arguing with them otherwise. I hope it gets
changed.

On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 11:43 AM Mark Radabaugh  wrote:

>
>
> This is 47 CFR 1.7004:
>
> (d) Providers shall include in each Digital Opportunity Data Collection
> filing a certification signed by a corporate officer of the provider that
> the officer has examined the information contained in the submission and
> that, to the best of the officer's actual knowledge, information, and
> belief, all statements of fact contained in the submission are true and
> correct. All providers also shall submit a certification of the accuracy of
> its submissions by a qualified engineer. The engineering certification
> shall state
> 
>  that
> the certified professional engineer or corporate engineering officer is
> employed by the provider and has direct knowledge of, or responsibility
> for, the generation of the provider's Digital Opportunity Data Collection
> filing.
>
>
> The law itself says “or corporate engineering officer….”.  While the
> waiver itself will expire, that expiration doesn’t change the underlying
> law.
>
> I actually think CCA screwed this up asking for the waiver in the first
> place.
>
> What the waiver actually ORDERED is "that this Declaratory Ruling is
> ADOPTED and section 1.7004(d), 47 CFR §1.7004(d) is WAIVED to the extent
> indicated herein.”
>
> It doesn’t change the original statement that a corporate engineering
> officer can certify the filing, with or without the waiver.If your
> engineer has the required degree and you make them a corporate engineering
> officer (and I’ll let the lawyers deal with what making an employee an
> officer means) you still don’t need a PE to my reading.
>
> Mark
>
>
> On Jul 22, 2022, at 11:45 AM, Cameron Crum  wrote:
>
> Yeah they are allowing that for the next 3 cycles. After that, we'll see.
>
> On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 10:35 AM Mark Radabaugh  wrote:
>
>> I could get my PE but I have zero interest in relearning all of the EIT
>> (renamed something else now) that is part of the book exam.   But to your
>> point - nothing in my EE had any specific relevance to what we do on a day
>> to day basis.   Fiber was a curiosity at the time, and phased array
>> antennas were cutting edge.
>>
>> I still think the FCC / etc. is getting a little too hung up on the PE
>> requirement - I’m not convinced they actually required a state certified
>> Professional Engineer (Capital P) in the first place. Ohio specifically
>> says:
>>
>> (A) Except for an individual who, as part of the internal classification
>> system of the individual's employer, uses the title "engineer" by itself or
>> in conjunction with another term described in division (B) of this section
>> and who does not represent the individual's self to the public or otherwise
>> advertise the individual's self as an engineer, no individual shall, in
>> connection with the individual's name, assume, use, or advertise:
>>
>> (1) The title "engineer" by itself unless the individual is an engineer;
>>
>> (2) The title "engineer" in conjunction with another term that modifies
>> the title "engineer" in a manner that conveys the impression that the
>> individual is a graduate of an accredited engineering curriculum unless the
>> individual is a graduate of an accredited engineering curriculum.
>>
>> (B) Terms used in conjunction with the title "engineer" under division
>> (A)(2) of this section that imply a person is a graduate of an accredited
>> engineering curriculum include the following: "aerospace," "agricultural,"
>> "civil," "chemical," "computer," "electrical," "industrial," "mechanics,"
>> "mechanical," "metallurgical," "mining," "naval architectural and marine,"
>> "nuclear," and any other term commonly used by an institution of higher
>> learning to apply to graduates of an accredited engineering curriculum.
>>
>> The FCC said (in the waiver) "we agree that, under the Commission’s
>> rules, where a mobile or fixed service provider submits a certification of
>> the accuracy of its broadband submissions from a “corporate engineering
>> officer,” the corporate engineering officer does not need to be a certified
>> PE.  We believe that the rule would be satisfied, for example, where the
>> corporate officer possesses at least a Bachelor of Science (B.S.) in
>> engineering degree and has both “direct knowledge” of, and responsibility
>> for, the carrier’s network design and construction.
>>
>> To my reading I can specifically state that I am an engineer with a BSEE
>> acting in my capacity with the company, and not violate Ohio law in doing
>> so.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 

Re: [AFMUG] BDC

[Mike Hammett]

What if you don't have towers? ;-) 


One of my hats is fiber and DSL. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Cameron Crum"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2022 4:23:11 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC 


We have a solution for filing with PE certification at 
www.regulatorysolutions.us if you need assistance. 


Cameron 


On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 4:17 PM Chuck McCown via AF < af@af.afmug.com > wrote: 



Not a new version but a whole new other report in addition to 477 I think. 


Sent from my iPhone 



On Jul 21, 2022, at 2:39 PM, Jason McKemie < j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com > 
wrote: 







I haven't been reading up on this, is this the new form 477 replacement with 
increased requirements? 


On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 2:51 PM Chuck McCown via AF < af@af.afmug.com > wrote: 






“Internet access”. If I am strictly a layer 2 pipe providing transport - only 
then I am not a provider of internet. If someone coincidentally connects it to 
layer 3 things... well then that is outside of my control. 




From: Josh Luthman 
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2022 1:41 PM 
To: Chuck McCown 
Cc: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC 


>Facilities-based providers of fixed and mobile broadband internet access who 
>have one or more end user connections in service on June 30, 2022 


On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 3:35 PM Chuck McCown < ch...@go-mtc.com > wrote: 






But what types of business does it apply to? I am sure that I can find a 
loophole. Like I deliver virtual ice cream via ethernet so it should not apply 
to me. 




From: Josh Luthman 
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2022 12:47 PM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: Chuck McCown 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC 


Ethernet/GPON doesn't matter. It's copper versus optical delivery. :) 


On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 11:21 AM Chuck McCown via AF < af@af.afmug.com > wrote: 






I wonder if I can get away with being an ethernet service provider with free 
access to the internet thrown in... 




From: Josh Luthman 
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2022 8:33 AM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC 


WISPA is absolutely fighting this. We absolutely did not want this. There's way 
more opposition than WISPA has resources, but we still did get some wins. 


On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 11:12 PM Steve Jones < thatoneguyst...@gmail.com > 
wrote: 



I'm sure wispa is out there looking out for us 
That is sarcasm 
Wispa isnt what itwas when it lived in this neighborhood 
I feel we all need to watch brokeback mountain to prepare what's coming 


On Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 6:16 PM Chuck McCown via AF < af@af.afmug.com > wrote: 






Perhaps. I am sure there will be things filed about this. 




From: Brian Webster 
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2022 4:46 PM 
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Cc: 'Chuck McCown' 
Subject: RE: [AFMUG] BDC 



Keep in mind that is a temp fix and only good for the next 18 months. Then the 
full PE cert is required. 


Thank you, 
Brian Webster 
www.wirelessmapping.com 



From: AF [mailto: af-boun...@af.afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF 
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2022 5:10 PM 
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Cc: Chuck McCown 
Subject: [AFMUG] BDC 




Starting to look into what I have to do. 

Just read the certification requirements. This is the language of the 
alternate, non PE, non degreed engineer certifier: 

(ii) specialized training relevant to broadband network engineering and design, 
deployment, and/or performance, and at least ten years of relevant experience 
in broadband network engineering, design, and/or performance. 



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Re: [AFMUG] BDC

[Mike Hammett]

*LOTS* of bad submissions from LOTS of companies, big and small, over the 
years. It all needs to stop. I'm not sure this is the right way, but it's the 
way we're apparently going down. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Chuck McCown via AF"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Cc: "Chuck McCown"  
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2022 10:48:40 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC 




I can understanding the FCC wanting someone to hang for submitting puffed up 
coverage info. They think this is going to guarantee accuracy of the results 
and prevent any challenges. If there are challenges then it will pit PE against 
PE. Not so sure this is going to accomplish what they want. I don’t overstate 
my reach or capability. I am fiber. The reach is finite and inarguable. The 
gear I use has finite and inarguable capacity. However with fiber I guess I can 
I can give you a Tbps theoretically. I don’t think this is a problem for fixed 
providers. We either cover an area or we do not. With wireless, everyone can 
fudge the map. I would guess that is what the FCC is trying to stop. 




From: Mark Radabaugh 
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2022 9:32 AM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC 

I could get my PE but I have zero interest in relearning all of the EIT 
(renamed something else now) that is part of the book exam. But to your point - 
nothing in my EE had any specific relevance to what we do on a day to day 
basis. Fiber was a curiosity at the time, and phased array antennas were 
cutting edge. 

I still think the FCC / etc. is getting a little too hung up on the PE 
requirement - I’m not convinced they actually required a state certified 
Professional Engineer (Capital P) in the first place. Ohio specifically says: 




(A) Except for an individual who, as part of the internal classification system 
of the individual's employer, uses the title "engineer" by itself or in 
conjunction with another term described in division (B) of this section and who 
does not represent the individual's self to the public or otherwise advertise 
the individual's self as an engineer, no individual shall, in connection with 
the individual's name, assume, use, or advertise: 

(1) The title "engineer" by itself unless the individual is an engineer; 

(2) The title "engineer" in conjunction with another term that modifies the 
title "engineer" in a manner that conveys the impression that the individual is 
a graduate of an accredited engineering curriculum unless the individual is a 
graduate of an accredited engineering curriculum. 

(B) Terms used in conjunction with the title "engineer" under division (A)(2) 
of this section that imply a person is a graduate of an accredited engineering 
curriculum include the following: "aerospace," "agricultural," "civil," 
"chemical," "computer," "electrical," "industrial," "mechanics," "mechanical," 
"metallurgical," "mining," "naval architectural and marine," "nuclear," and any 
other term commonly used by an institution of higher learning to apply to 
graduates of an accredited engineering curriculum. 



The FCC said (in the waiver) "we agree that, under the Commission’s rules, 
where a mobile or fixed service provider submits a certification of the 
accuracy of its broadband submissions from a “corporate engineering officer,” 
the corporate engineering officer does not need to be a certified PE. We 
believe that the rule would be satisfied, for example, where the corporate 
officer possesses at least a Bachelor of Science (B.S.) in engineering degree 
and has both “direct knowledge” of, and responsibility for, the carrier’s 
network design and construction. 

To my reading I can specifically state that I am an engineer with a BSEE acting 
in my capacity with the company, and not violate Ohio law in doing so. 

Mark 













On Jul 22, 2022, at 10:35 AM, Cameron Crum < cc...@murcevilo.com > wrote: 


Yeah, it's a stupid requirement s most EE PEs don't know jack about wireless 
and probably less about fiber. I happen to know a couple guys who bothered to 
get their PE, but I know I never did simply because there wasn't even a test 
for what I do. They want you to take the power systems and control systems exam 
if you are an RF guy. IT really is dumb and I think they are just trying to 
weed out the smaller guys who will be forced into a financial hardship. 



On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 4:53 PM Chuck McCown via AF < af@af.afmug.com > wrote: 






The waiver should be made permanent. The quality of the data will not suffer. 




From: Cameron Crum 
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2022 3:47 PM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC 


Understood. We can work with very small providers. We aren't trying to put 
anyone out of business. We do have some fixed costs like the PE unless you want 
to self certify. I believe you qualify, or will at least for 

Re: [AFMUG] BDC

[Cameron Crum]

Mike are you asking me about the program or just a general question about
towers? If general question, then you just do a spatial intersection
between your buffered fiber routes or a polygon that surrounds all the
homes you pass and the address data they send. Pretty easy if you know how
to use a spatial database. A PE will ask how you did it and then probably
ask you to show them and then sign and stamp.

Cameron

On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 12:00 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:

> What if you don't have towers?  ;-)
>
> One of my hats is fiber and DSL.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Cameron Crum" 
> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> *Sent: *Thursday, July 21, 2022 4:23:11 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] BDC
>
> We have a solution for filing  with PE certification at
> www.regulatorysolutions.us if you need assistance.
>
> Cameron
>
> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 4:17 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> Not a new version but a whole new other report in addition to 477 I think.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jul 21, 2022, at 2:39 PM, Jason McKemie <
>> j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> I haven't been reading up on this, is this the new form 477 replacement
>> with increased requirements?
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 2:51 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> “Internet access”.  If I am strictly a layer 2 pipe providing transport
>>> - only then I am not a provider of internet.  If someone coincidentally
>>> connects it to layer 3 things... well then that is outside of my control.
>>>
>>> *From:* Josh Luthman
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 21, 2022 1:41 PM
>>> *To:* Chuck McCown
>>> *Cc:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BDC
>>>
>>> >Facilities-based providers of fixed and mobile broadband internet
>>> access who have one or more end user connections in service on June 30, 2022
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 3:35 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>>
 But what types of business does it apply to?  I am sure that I can find
 a loophole.  Like I deliver virtual ice cream via ethernet so it should not
 apply to me.

 *From:* Josh Luthman
 *Sent:* Thursday, July 21, 2022 12:47 PM
 *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
 *Cc:* Chuck McCown
 *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BDC

 Ethernet/GPON doesn't matter.  It's copper versus optical delivery. :)

 On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 11:21 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
 wrote:

> I wonder if I can get away with being an ethernet service provider
> with free access to the internet thrown in...
>
> *From:* Josh Luthman
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 21, 2022 8:33 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BDC
>
> WISPA is absolutely fighting this.  We absolutely did not want this.
> There's way more opposition than WISPA has resources, but we still did get
> some wins.
>
> On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 11:12 PM Steve Jones <
> thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm sure wispa is out there looking out for us
>> That is sarcasm
>> Wispa isnt what itwas when it lived in this neighborhood
>> I feel we all need to watch brokeback mountain to prepare what's
>> coming
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 6:16 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Perhaps.  I am sure there will be things filed about this.
>>>
>>> *From:* Brian Webster
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 20, 2022 4:46 PM
>>> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
>>> *Cc:* 'Chuck McCown'
>>> *Subject:* RE: [AFMUG] BDC
>>>
>>>
>>> Keep in mind that is a temp fix and only good for the next 18
>>> months. Then the full PE cert is required.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>>
>>> Brian Webster
>>>
>>> www.wirelessmapping.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Chuck
>>> McCown via AF
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 20, 2022 5:10 PM
>>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
>>> *Cc:* Chuck McCown
>>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] BDC
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Starting to look into what I have to do.
>>>
>>> Just read the certification requirements.  This is the language of
>>> the alternate, non PE, non degreed engineer certifier:
>>>
>>> (ii) specialized training rel

Re: [AFMUG] BDC

[Seth Mattinen]

On 7/22/22 10:16 AM, Cameron Crum wrote:
Mike are you asking me about the program or just a general question 
about towers? If general question, then you just do a spatial 
intersection between your buffered fiber routes or a polygon that 
surrounds all the homes you pass and the address data they send. Pretty 
easy if you know how to use a spatial database. A PE will ask how you 
did it and then probably ask you to show them and then sign and stamp.





So if one were only serve a specific address you'd just draw a box 
around that address?


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[AFMUG] Type of Fiber to pull through Poly

[Nate Burke]

I need to pull 12 strand fiber through a 1.25" poly.  About 1500' and 4 
handholes.  It's been a couple years since we've done physical fiber 
installation underground, and that was mostly 128 strand. Should I get a 
flat drop cable, or would a different type be better?  Flat vs round?  
The handholes are only 18x30, so not very big.  The 48 Strand that's 
coiled in the handholes now takes most of the space.   It'll be an empty 
poly that this line runs through.


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Re: [AFMUG] Type of Fiber to pull through Poly

[Chris Fabien]

Flat drop would be fine for this, use tonable if you need a locate method.

On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 2:27 PM Nate Burke  wrote:
>
> I need to pull 12 strand fiber through a 1.25" poly.  About 1500' and 4
> handholes.  It's been a couple years since we've done physical fiber
> installation underground, and that was mostly 128 strand. Should I get a
> flat drop cable, or would a different type be better?  Flat vs round?
> The handholes are only 18x30, so not very big.  The 48 Strand that's
> coiled in the handholes now takes most of the space.   It'll be an empty
> poly that this line runs through.
>
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Re: [AFMUG] BDC

[Cameron Crum]

Well if you only had fiber at one address then you would only submit that
one address. No need for a polygon. But yeah hardwired services like fiber
or cable or DSL obviously know which homes they pass. You just have to make
sure that you identify the addresses in the BDC fabric file. The easiest
way is to overlay your routes with a buffer that would encompass the homes
or draw a polygon around the homes that you know you pass. Then you could
put that polygon and the addresses into a spatial database or a GIS program
if you have one and do an intersect to get the addresses served. I know a
lot of guys don't have a real GIS program or really know how to insert data
into a spatially enabled database.

On Fri, Jul 22, 2022, 12:59 PM Seth Mattinen  wrote:

> On 7/22/22 10:16 AM, Cameron Crum wrote:
> > Mike are you asking me about the program or just a general question
> > about towers? If general question, then you just do a spatial
> > intersection between your buffered fiber routes or a polygon that
> > surrounds all the homes you pass and the address data they send. Pretty
> > easy if you know how to use a spatial database. A PE will ask how you
> > did it and then probably ask you to show them and then sign and stamp.
> >
>
>
> So if one were only serve a specific address you'd just draw a box
> around that address?
>
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Re: [AFMUG] BDC

[Seth Mattinen]

On 7/22/22 10:57 AM, Seth Mattinen wrote:

On 7/22/22 10:16 AM, Cameron Crum wrote:
Mike are you asking me about the program or just a general question 
about towers? If general question, then you just do a spatial 
intersection between your buffered fiber routes or a polygon that 
surrounds all the homes you pass and the address data they send. 
Pretty easy if you know how to use a spatial database. A PE will ask 
how you did it and then probably ask you to show them and then sign 
and stamp.





So if one were only serve a specific address you'd just draw a box 
around that address?





Actually don't even know if "serve" is the correct term. We allow people 
to connect to a port on our equipment if they happen to know about it 
and can provide their own equipment or cabling to reach it. How would 
one map something like that? A single square over our business office 
address?


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Re: [AFMUG] Type of Fiber to pull through Poly

[Chuck McCown via AF]

Yes and pull and extra one or an extra mule tape at the same time.  

-Original Message- 
From: Chris Fabien 
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2022 12:35 PM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Type of Fiber to pull through Poly 


Flat drop would be fine for this, use tonable if you need a locate method.

On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 2:27 PM Nate Burke  wrote:


I need to pull 12 strand fiber through a 1.25" poly.  About 1500' and 4
handholes.  It's been a couple years since we've done physical fiber
installation underground, and that was mostly 128 strand. Should I get a
flat drop cable, or would a different type be better?  Flat vs round?
The handholes are only 18x30, so not very big.  The 48 Strand that's
coiled in the handholes now takes most of the space.   It'll be an empty
poly that this line runs through.

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Re: [AFMUG] BDC

[Cameron Crum]

Yeah. There are probably multiple addresses at a big building like that but
maybe not. If that's it then yep, just a polygon around it or find the
address in the fabric file, then see if there are others.


On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 1:39 PM Seth Mattinen  wrote:

> On 7/22/22 10:57 AM, Seth Mattinen wrote:
> > On 7/22/22 10:16 AM, Cameron Crum wrote:
> >> Mike are you asking me about the program or just a general question
> >> about towers? If general question, then you just do a spatial
> >> intersection between your buffered fiber routes or a polygon that
> >> surrounds all the homes you pass and the address data they send.
> >> Pretty easy if you know how to use a spatial database. A PE will ask
> >> how you did it and then probably ask you to show them and then sign
> >> and stamp.
> >>
> >
> >
> > So if one were only serve a specific address you'd just draw a box
> > around that address?
> >
>
>
> Actually don't even know if "serve" is the correct term. We allow people
> to connect to a port on our equipment if they happen to know about it
> and can provide their own equipment or cabling to reach it. How would
> one map something like that? A single square over our business office
> address?
>
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Re: [AFMUG] BDC

[Chuck McCown via AF]

I think a fake PE stamp is the way to go...

From: Cameron Crum 
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2022 1:09 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC

Yeah. There are probably multiple addresses at a big building like that but 
maybe not. If that's it then yep, just a polygon around it or find the address 
in the fabric file, then see if there are others. 


On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 1:39 PM Seth Mattinen  wrote:

  On 7/22/22 10:57 AM, Seth Mattinen wrote:
  > On 7/22/22 10:16 AM, Cameron Crum wrote:
  >> Mike are you asking me about the program or just a general question 
  >> about towers? If general question, then you just do a spatial 
  >> intersection between your buffered fiber routes or a polygon that 
  >> surrounds all the homes you pass and the address data they send. 
  >> Pretty easy if you know how to use a spatial database. A PE will ask 
  >> how you did it and then probably ask you to show them and then sign 
  >> and stamp.
  >>
  > 
  > 
  > So if one were only serve a specific address you'd just draw a box 
  > around that address?
  > 


  Actually don't even know if "serve" is the correct term. We allow people 
  to connect to a port on our equipment if they happen to know about it 
  and can provide their own equipment or cabling to reach it. How would 
  one map something like that? A single square over our business office 
  address?

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Re: [AFMUG] BDC

[Cameron Crum]

Seems risky. $15000 fine and possibly a federal forgery charge if they find
out.

On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 3:40 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> I think a fake PE stamp is the way to go...
>
> *From:* Cameron Crum
> *Sent:* Friday, July 22, 2022 1:09 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BDC
>
> Yeah. There are probably multiple addresses at a big building like that
> but maybe not. If that's it then yep, just a polygon around it or find the
> address in the fabric file, then see if there are others.
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 1:39 PM Seth Mattinen  wrote:
>
>> On 7/22/22 10:57 AM, Seth Mattinen wrote:
>> > On 7/22/22 10:16 AM, Cameron Crum wrote:
>> >> Mike are you asking me about the program or just a general question
>> >> about towers? If general question, then you just do a spatial
>> >> intersection between your buffered fiber routes or a polygon that
>> >> surrounds all the homes you pass and the address data they send.
>> >> Pretty easy if you know how to use a spatial database. A PE will ask
>> >> how you did it and then probably ask you to show them and then sign
>> >> and stamp.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > So if one were only serve a specific address you'd just draw a box
>> > around that address?
>> >
>>
>>
>> Actually don't even know if "serve" is the correct term. We allow people
>> to connect to a port on our equipment if they happen to know about it
>> and can provide their own equipment or cabling to reach it. How would
>> one map something like that? A single square over our business office
>> address?
>>
>> --
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>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
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Re: [AFMUG] BDC

[Chuck McCown via AF]

He said he was legit.  Worked out of his car...

From: Cameron Crum 
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2022 3:11 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC

Seems risky. $15000 fine and possibly a federal forgery charge if they find 
out. 

On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 3:40 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

  I think a fake PE stamp is the way to go...

  From: Cameron Crum 
  Sent: Friday, July 22, 2022 1:09 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC

  Yeah. There are probably multiple addresses at a big building like that but 
maybe not. If that's it then yep, just a polygon around it or find the address 
in the fabric file, then see if there are others. 


  On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 1:39 PM Seth Mattinen  wrote:

On 7/22/22 10:57 AM, Seth Mattinen wrote:
> On 7/22/22 10:16 AM, Cameron Crum wrote:
>> Mike are you asking me about the program or just a general question 
>> about towers? If general question, then you just do a spatial 
>> intersection between your buffered fiber routes or a polygon that 
>> surrounds all the homes you pass and the address data they send. 
>> Pretty easy if you know how to use a spatial database. A PE will ask 
>> how you did it and then probably ask you to show them and then sign 
>> and stamp.
>>
> 
> 
> So if one were only serve a specific address you'd just draw a box 
> around that address?
> 


Actually don't even know if "serve" is the correct term. We allow people 
to connect to a port on our equipment if they happen to know about it 
and can provide their own equipment or cabling to reach it. How would 
one map something like that? A single square over our business office 
address?

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Re: [AFMUG] BDC

[Robert]

He's the Lincoln PE    or the Pontiac PE

On 7/22/22 2:45 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

He said he was legit.  Worked out of his car...
*From:* Cameron Crum
*Sent:* Friday, July 22, 2022 3:11 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BDC
Seems risky. $15000 fine and possibly a federal forgery charge if they 
find out.
On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 3:40 PM Chuck McCown via AF  
wrote:


I think a fake PE stamp is the way to go...
*From:* Cameron Crum
*Sent:* Friday, July 22, 2022 1:09 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BDC
Yeah. There are probably multiple addresses at a big building like
that but maybe not. If that's it then yep, just a polygon around
it or find the address in the fabric file, then see if there are
others.
On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 1:39 PM Seth Mattinen 
wrote:

On 7/22/22 10:57 AM, Seth Mattinen wrote:
> On 7/22/22 10:16 AM, Cameron Crum wrote:
>> Mike are you asking me about the program or just a general
question
>> about towers? If general question, then you just do a spatial
>> intersection between your buffered fiber routes or a
polygon that
>> surrounds all the homes you pass and the address data they
send.
>> Pretty easy if you know how to use a spatial database. A PE
will ask
>> how you did it and then probably ask you to show them and
then sign
>> and stamp.
>>
>
>
> So if one were only serve a specific address you'd just draw
a box
> around that address?
>


Actually don't even know if "serve" is the correct term. We
allow people
to connect to a port on our equipment if they happen to know
about it
and can provide their own equipment or cabling to reach it.
How would
one map something like that? A single square over our business
office
address?

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Re: [AFMUG] BDC

[Chuck McCown via AF]

Yugo PE

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 22, 2022, at 9:31 PM, Robert  wrote:
> 
>  He's the Lincoln PEor the Pontiac PE
> 
> On 7/22/22 2:45 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>> He said he was legit.  Worked out of his car...
>>  
>> From: Cameron Crum
>> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2022 3:11 PM
>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC
>>  
>> Seems risky. $15000 fine and possibly a federal forgery charge if they find 
>> out.
>>  
>> On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 3:40 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:
>>> I think a fake PE stamp is the way to go...
>>>  
>>> From: Cameron Crum
>>> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2022 1:09 PM
>>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BDC
>>>  
>>> Yeah. There are probably multiple addresses at a big building like that but 
>>> maybe not. If that's it then yep, just a polygon around it or find the 
>>> address in the fabric file, then see if there are others.
>>>  
>>>  
>>> On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 1:39 PM Seth Mattinen  wrote:
 On 7/22/22 10:57 AM, Seth Mattinen wrote:
 > On 7/22/22 10:16 AM, Cameron Crum wrote:
 >> Mike are you asking me about the program or just a general question 
 >> about towers? If general question, then you just do a spatial 
 >> intersection between your buffered fiber routes or a polygon that 
 >> surrounds all the homes you pass and the address data they send. 
 >> Pretty easy if you know how to use a spatial database. A PE will ask 
 >> how you did it and then probably ask you to show them and then sign 
 >> and stamp.
 >>
 > 
 > 
 > So if one were only serve a specific address you'd just draw a box 
 > around that address?
 > 
 
 
 Actually don't even know if "serve" is the correct term. We allow people 
 to connect to a port on our equipment if they happen to know about it 
 and can provide their own equipment or cabling to reach it. How would 
 one map something like that? A single square over our business office 
 address?
 
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 AF mailing list
 AF@af.afmug.com
 http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>> 
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>> 
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