Yeah, there has been a lot of discussion about this in the 2nd and 3rd report and orders. They have said it is a PE requirement except for the 3 cycle waiver. Good luck arguing with them otherwise. I hope it gets changed.
On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 11:43 AM Mark Radabaugh <m...@amplex.net> wrote: > > > This is 47 CFR 1.7004: > > (d) Providers shall include in each Digital Opportunity Data Collection > filing a certification signed by a corporate officer of the provider that > the officer has examined the information contained in the submission and > that, to the best of the officer's actual knowledge, information, and > belief, all statements of fact contained in the submission are true and > correct. All providers also shall submit a certification of the accuracy of > its submissions by a qualified engineer. The engineering certification > shall state > <https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/index.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=e8082d3c63609512a918f3ab77bd41dc&term_occur=999&term_src=Title:47:Chapter:I:Subchapter:A:Part:1:Subpart:V:1.7004> > that > the certified professional engineer or corporate engineering officer is > employed by the provider and has direct knowledge of, or responsibility > for, the generation of the provider's Digital Opportunity Data Collection > filing. > > > The law itself says “or corporate engineering officer….”. While the > waiver itself will expire, that expiration doesn’t change the underlying > law. > > I actually think CCA screwed this up asking for the waiver in the first > place. > > What the waiver actually ORDERED is "that this Declaratory Ruling is > ADOPTED and section 1.7004(d), 47 CFR §1.7004(d) is WAIVED to the extent > indicated herein.” > > It doesn’t change the original statement that a corporate engineering > officer can certify the filing, with or without the waiver. If your > engineer has the required degree and you make them a corporate engineering > officer (and I’ll let the lawyers deal with what making an employee an > officer means) you still don’t need a PE to my reading. > > Mark > > > On Jul 22, 2022, at 11:45 AM, Cameron Crum <cc...@murcevilo.com> wrote: > > Yeah they are allowing that for the next 3 cycles. After that, we'll see. > > On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 10:35 AM Mark Radabaugh <m...@amplex.net> wrote: > >> I could get my PE but I have zero interest in relearning all of the EIT >> (renamed something else now) that is part of the book exam. But to your >> point - nothing in my EE had any specific relevance to what we do on a day >> to day basis. Fiber was a curiosity at the time, and phased array >> antennas were cutting edge. >> >> I still think the FCC / etc. is getting a little too hung up on the PE >> requirement - I’m not convinced they actually required a state certified >> Professional Engineer (Capital P) in the first place. Ohio specifically >> says: >> >> (A) Except for an individual who, as part of the internal classification >> system of the individual's employer, uses the title "engineer" by itself or >> in conjunction with another term described in division (B) of this section >> and who does not represent the individual's self to the public or otherwise >> advertise the individual's self as an engineer, no individual shall, in >> connection with the individual's name, assume, use, or advertise: >> >> (1) The title "engineer" by itself unless the individual is an engineer; >> >> (2) The title "engineer" in conjunction with another term that modifies >> the title "engineer" in a manner that conveys the impression that the >> individual is a graduate of an accredited engineering curriculum unless the >> individual is a graduate of an accredited engineering curriculum. >> >> (B) Terms used in conjunction with the title "engineer" under division >> (A)(2) of this section that imply a person is a graduate of an accredited >> engineering curriculum include the following: "aerospace," "agricultural," >> "civil," "chemical," "computer," "electrical," "industrial," "mechanics," >> "mechanical," "metallurgical," "mining," "naval architectural and marine," >> "nuclear," and any other term commonly used by an institution of higher >> learning to apply to graduates of an accredited engineering curriculum. >> >> The FCC said (in the waiver) "we agree that, under the Commission’s >> rules, where a mobile or fixed service provider submits a certification of >> the accuracy of its broadband submissions from a “corporate engineering >> officer,” the corporate engineering officer does not need to be a certified >> PE. We believe that the rule would be satisfied, for example, where the >> corporate officer possesses at least a Bachelor of Science (B.S.) in >> engineering degree and has both “direct knowledge” of, and responsibility >> for, the carrier’s network design and construction. >> >> To my reading I can specifically state that I am an engineer with a BSEE >> acting in my capacity with the company, and not violate Ohio law in doing >> so. >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jul 22, 2022, at 10:35 AM, Cameron Crum <cc...@murcevilo.com> wrote: >> >> Yeah, it's a stupid requirement s most EE PEs don't know jack about >> wireless and probably less about fiber. I happen to know a couple guys who >> bothered to get their PE, but I know I never did simply because there >> wasn't even a test for what I do. They want you to take the power systems >> and control systems exam if you are an RF guy. IT really is dumb and I >> think they are just trying to weed out the smaller guys who will be forced >> into a financial hardship. >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 4:53 PM Chuck McCown via AF <af@af.afmug.com> >> wrote: >> >>> The waiver should be made permanent. The quality of the data will not >>> suffer. >>> >>> *From:* Cameron Crum >>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 21, 2022 3:47 PM >>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BDC >>> >>> Understood. We can work with very small providers. We aren't trying to >>> put anyone out of business. We do have some fixed costs like the PE unless >>> you want to self certify. I believe you qualify, or will at least for the >>> waiver on the next 3 filings. >>> >>> Cameron >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 4:36 PM Chuck McCown via AF <af@af.afmug.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Yes, but your solution is equivalent to my annual net profit as I am >>>> such a new and small company. I am complaining to the FCC penury. >>>> >>>> *From:* Cameron Crum >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 21, 2022 3:23 PM >>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BDC >>>> >>>> We have a solution for filing with PE certification at >>>> www.regulatorysolutions.us if you need assistance. >>>> >>>> Cameron >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 4:17 PM Chuck McCown via AF <af@af.afmug.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Not a new version but a whole new other report in addition to 477 I >>>>> think. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Jul 21, 2022, at 2:39 PM, Jason McKemie < >>>>> j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I haven't been reading up on this, is this the new form 477 >>>>> replacement with increased requirements? >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 2:51 PM Chuck McCown via AF <af@af.afmug.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> “Internet access”. If I am strictly a layer 2 pipe providing >>>>>> transport - only then I am not a provider of internet. If someone >>>>>> coincidentally connects it to layer 3 things... well then that is outside >>>>>> of my control. >>>>>> >>>>>> *From:* Josh Luthman >>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 21, 2022 1:41 PM >>>>>> *To:* Chuck McCown >>>>>> *Cc:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BDC >>>>>> >>>>>> >Facilities-based providers of fixed and mobile broadband internet >>>>>> access who have one or more end user connections in service on June 30, >>>>>> 2022 >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 3:35 PM Chuck McCown <ch...@go-mtc.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> But what types of business does it apply to? I am sure that I can >>>>>>> find a loophole. Like I deliver virtual ice cream via ethernet so it >>>>>>> should not apply to me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *From:* Josh Luthman >>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 21, 2022 12:47 PM >>>>>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >>>>>>> *Cc:* Chuck McCown >>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BDC >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ethernet/GPON doesn't matter. It's copper versus optical delivery. >>>>>>> :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 11:21 AM Chuck McCown via AF < >>>>>>> af@af.afmug.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I wonder if I can get away with being an ethernet service provider >>>>>>>> with free access to the internet thrown in... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *From:* Josh Luthman >>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 21, 2022 8:33 AM >>>>>>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BDC >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> WISPA is absolutely fighting this. We absolutely did not want >>>>>>>> this. There's way more opposition than WISPA has resources, but we >>>>>>>> still >>>>>>>> did get some wins. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 11:12 PM Steve Jones < >>>>>>>> thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm sure wispa is out there looking out for us >>>>>>>>> That is sarcasm >>>>>>>>> Wispa isnt what itwas when it lived in this neighborhood >>>>>>>>> I feel we all need to watch brokeback mountain to prepare what's >>>>>>>>> coming >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 6:16 PM Chuck McCown via AF <af@af.afmug.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Perhaps. I am sure there will be things filed about this. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *From:* Brian Webster >>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 20, 2022 4:46 PM >>>>>>>>>> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' >>>>>>>>>> *Cc:* 'Chuck McCown' >>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* RE: [AFMUG] BDC >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Keep in mind that is a temp fix and only good for the next 18 >>>>>>>>>> months. Then the full PE cert is required. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thank you, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Brian Webster >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> www.wirelessmapping.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Chuck >>>>>>>>>> McCown via AF >>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 20, 2022 5:10 PM >>>>>>>>>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com >>>>>>>>>> *Cc:* Chuck McCown >>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] BDC >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Starting to look into what I have to do. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Just read the certification requirements. This is the language >>>>>>>>>> of the alternate, non PE, non degreed engineer certifier: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> (ii) specialized training relevant to broadband network >>>>>>>>>> engineering and design, deployment, and/or performance, and at least >>>>>>>>>> ten >>>>>>>>>> years of relevant experience in broadband network engineering, >>>>>>>>>> design, >>>>>>>>>> and/or performance. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I am guessing everyone on this list fits this set of >>>>>>>>>> qualifications. >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> AF mailing list >>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> AF mailing list >>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> -- >>>> AF mailing list >>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>> -- >>>> AF mailing list >>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> -- >>> AF mailing list >>> AF@af.afmug.com >>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>> >>> -- >>> AF mailing list >>> AF@af.afmug.com >>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>> >> -- >> AF mailing list >> AF@af.afmug.com >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> >> >> -- >> AF mailing list >> AF@af.afmug.com >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >
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