Re: [AFMUG] EBS status for school districts

[Gino A. Villarini]

Exactly


Gino Villarini
Founder/President
@gvillarini
t: 787.273.4143 Ext. 204
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www.aeronetpr.com | Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 
Guaynabo, PR 00968
From: AF  on behalf of Eric Nielsen 

Reply-To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Date: Tuesday, April 14, 2020 at 6:13 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] EBS status for school districts

From my understanding, the educational entities had to have requested and been 
assigned a license back when the FCC was issuing them. If they don't currently 
have a license they're out of luck, as the band is being repurposed for 
commercial use.

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 6:03 PM Steve Jones 
mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:
That's what I'm concerned about.  The window is thin to get into it. I know 
zero about it. Given the current state of affairs, it would be ideal for that 
auction to halt. We are positioned to partner with districts today and solve 
any remaining gaps in rural education connectivity. It's going to pop up come 
the 2020/2021 school year. In a perfect world, EBS would move to a reserved 
public/private partnership state. Not a lease for pay state. ie it's only 
available to school districts or ISPs willing to prioritize education 
connections in exchange for access to that districts lease.

Speaking of that. Are districts default entitled to x mhz?  How does that work. 
We have two districts in my town. Do each get some or do they share and have to 
agree to sale/lease?


On Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 2:05 PM Eric Nielsen 
mailto:ericlniel...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Keep in mind that this band will be auctioned in the coming months. School 
districts are selling their EBS licenses pretty regularly since the band can 
legally be owned by commercial entities now. They’re charging a premium for 
licenses and leases.

Comsearch can generate interactive maps showing the percentage each block’s 
availability in each county of interest.

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 2:45 PM Steve Jones 
mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:
If a guy wanted to find out what spectrum is available to a school district, 
where would the guy start to look? I assume ULS, but I wouldnt know where to 
begin even
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Re: [AFMUG] Market saturation

[Mark Radabaugh]

I’m thinking around 85%.   Some depends on your market.   We have a few areas 
where I think about 5% of the housing is abandoned.  Take another 10% that are 
not interested.  There is an older population that just isn’t interested or 
that their needs are met by iPads and cellular.

That 85% number seems consistent for us on both wireless and fiber routes.   

Mark

> On Apr 15, 2020, at 12:29 AM, Steve Jones  wrote:
> 
> What percentage of rural customers would you all consider saturated?
> 
> I have access to some new datasets and it disturbing. It's good disturbing, 
> but unanticipated. 
> 
> May be bad.
> 
> Is there a rural percentage of capture that is considered saturated as a 
> standard? 100 percent is what we all want. But there are customers who dont 
> want, or simply cannot afford internet access. There has to be some numbers 
> out there.
> 
> I doubt government numbers count, since government is dumb. Where does a 
> simpleton such as myself go to find out what is considered saturated?
> 
> Say I touch 1000 households. What is the percentage of capture that marketing 
> is no longer recommended? If I have 500 of them, I'd think that's pretty 
> good, maybe even saturated between lack of need, want, or ability and offset 
> by whatever percentage per terrain would be co sided unservicable. I'd assume 
> my midwest flatlands unservicable would be different than Johnny paychecks 
> Arkansas hills unservicable.
> 
> These numbers have to be somewhere
> -- 
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> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


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Re: [AFMUG] Market saturation

[Matt Hoppes]

We see about 50% take rate even when we are the only option. 

> On Apr 15, 2020, at 6:26 AM, Mark Radabaugh  wrote:
> 
> I’m thinking around 85%.   Some depends on your market.   We have a few areas 
> where I think about 5% of the housing is abandoned.  Take another 10% that 
> are not interested.  There is an older population that just isn’t interested 
> or that their needs are met by iPads and cellular.
> 
> That 85% number seems consistent for us on both wireless and fiber routes.   
> 
> Mark
> 
>> On Apr 15, 2020, at 12:29 AM, Steve Jones  wrote:
>> 
>> What percentage of rural customers would you all consider saturated?
>> 
>> I have access to some new datasets and it disturbing. It's good disturbing, 
>> but unanticipated. 
>> 
>> May be bad.
>> 
>> Is there a rural percentage of capture that is considered saturated as a 
>> standard? 100 percent is what we all want. But there are customers who dont 
>> want, or simply cannot afford internet access. There has to be some numbers 
>> out there.
>> 
>> I doubt government numbers count, since government is dumb. Where does a 
>> simpleton such as myself go to find out what is considered saturated?
>> 
>> Say I touch 1000 households. What is the percentage of capture that 
>> marketing is no longer recommended? If I have 500 of them, I'd think that's 
>> pretty good, maybe even saturated between lack of need, want, or ability and 
>> offset by whatever percentage per terrain would be co sided unservicable. 
>> I'd assume my midwest flatlands unservicable would be different than Johnny 
>> paychecks Arkansas hills unservicable.
>> 
>> These numbers have to be somewhere
>> -- 
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> 
> 
> -- 
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

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[AFMUG] And there we have it....

[Mark Radabaugh]

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/frontier-communications-files-bankruptcy-protection-030635273.html
 


Dump your debts and your obligations, get more money.   Round and round it goes.

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Re: [AFMUG] And there we have it....

[Matt Hoppes]

“The Norwalk, Connecticut-based company estimated its assets and liabilities 
both in the range of $10 billion to $50 billion”

That’s a rather. Uhhh. Large range. 

I feel like that’s like me saying our assets are somewhere between $10,000 and 
$150,000.

How do you not know what you have? Of course that might be why they’re in the 
situation that they are in.

> On Apr 15, 2020, at 8:08 AM, Mark Radabaugh  wrote:
> 
> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/frontier-communications-files-bankruptcy-protection-030635273.html
> 
> Dump your debts and your obligations, get more money.   Round and round it 
> goes.
> 
> Mark
> -- 
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> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] Market saturation

[Lewis Bergman]

I second the 50% rate. Probably 35% if you have some other competition
other than satellite. At either one of those rates, you should have enough
neighbor referrals that anything other than a yard sign would be a waste.

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 6:36 AM Matt Hoppes <
mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:

> We see about 50% take rate even when we are the only option.
>
> > On Apr 15, 2020, at 6:26 AM, Mark Radabaugh  wrote:
> >
> > I’m thinking around 85%.   Some depends on your market.   We have a few
> areas where I think about 5% of the housing is abandoned.  Take another 10%
> that are not interested.  There is an older population that just isn’t
> interested or that their needs are met by iPads and cellular.
> >
> > That 85% number seems consistent for us on both wireless and fiber
> routes.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >> On Apr 15, 2020, at 12:29 AM, Steve Jones 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> What percentage of rural customers would you all consider saturated?
> >>
> >> I have access to some new datasets and it disturbing. It's good
> disturbing, but unanticipated.
> >>
> >> May be bad.
> >>
> >> Is there a rural percentage of capture that is considered saturated as
> a standard? 100 percent is what we all want. But there are customers who
> dont want, or simply cannot afford internet access. There has to be some
> numbers out there.
> >>
> >> I doubt government numbers count, since government is dumb. Where does
> a simpleton such as myself go to find out what is considered saturated?
> >>
> >> Say I touch 1000 households. What is the percentage of capture that
> marketing is no longer recommended? If I have 500 of them, I'd think that's
> pretty good, maybe even saturated between lack of need, want, or ability
> and offset by whatever percentage per terrain would be co sided
> unservicable. I'd assume my midwest flatlands unservicable would be
> different than Johnny paychecks Arkansas hills unservicable.
> >>
> >> These numbers have to be somewhere
> >> --
> >> AF mailing list
> >> AF@af.afmug.com
> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> >
> >
> > --
> > AF mailing list
> > AF@af.afmug.com
> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>


-- 
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325-439-0533 Cell
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Re: [AFMUG] And there we have it....

[Doug Hass]

They know exactly what they have for assets and liabilities, and will be
required to file a list of the latter. Bankruptcy laws don’t require them
to disclose anything more than a range in this initial filing.

El El mié, abr. 15, 2020 a la(s) 7:47 a. m., Matt Hoppes <
mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net> escribió:

> “The Norwalk, Connecticut-based company estimated its assets and
> liabilities both in the range of $10 billion to $50 billion”
>
> That’s a rather. Uhhh. Large range.
>
> I feel like that’s like me saying our assets are somewhere between $10,000
> and $150,000.
>
> How do you not know what you have? Of course that might be why they’re in
> the situation that they are in.
>
> On Apr 15, 2020, at 8:08 AM, Mark Radabaugh  wrote:
>
>
> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/frontier-communications-files-bankruptcy-protection-030635273.html
>
> Dump your debts and your obligations, get more money.   Round and round it
> goes.
>
> Mark
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
Doug Hass
Chair, Association of Corporate Counsel Employment and Labor Law Network
hassd...@gmail.com
(847) 957-1061
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Re: [AFMUG] Market saturation

[Matt Hoppes]

That also is what we have found.

I was actually going to say 35% take rate -- but since I've gotten shot 
down on previous e-mails where I've sent out "crazy" and "ridiculous" 
statistics, I figured I'd send the higher end of the spectrum :)


On 4/15/20 9:12 AM, Lewis Bergman wrote:
I second the 50% rate. Probably 35% if you have some other competition 
other than satellite. At either one of those rates, you should have 
enough neighbor referrals that anything other than a yard sign would be 
a waste.


On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 6:36 AM Matt Hoppes 
> wrote:


We see about 50% take rate even when we are the only option.

 > On Apr 15, 2020, at 6:26 AM, Mark Radabaugh mailto:m...@amplex.net>> wrote:
 >
 > I’m thinking around 85%.   Some depends on your market.   We have
a few areas where I think about 5% of the housing is abandoned. 
Take another 10% that are not interested.  There is an older

population that just isn’t interested or that their needs are met by
iPads and cellular.
 >
 > That 85% number seems consistent for us on both wireless and
fiber routes.
 >
 > Mark
 >
 >> On Apr 15, 2020, at 12:29 AM, Steve Jones
mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:
 >>
 >> What percentage of rural customers would you all consider saturated?
 >>
 >> I have access to some new datasets and it disturbing. It's good
disturbing, but unanticipated.
 >>
 >> May be bad.
 >>
 >> Is there a rural percentage of capture that is considered
saturated as a standard? 100 percent is what we all want. But there
are customers who dont want, or simply cannot afford internet
access. There has to be some numbers out there.
 >>
 >> I doubt government numbers count, since government is dumb.
Where does a simpleton such as myself go to find out what is
considered saturated?
 >>
 >> Say I touch 1000 households. What is the percentage of capture
that marketing is no longer recommended? If I have 500 of them, I'd
think that's pretty good, maybe even saturated between lack of need,
want, or ability and offset by whatever percentage per terrain would
be co sided unservicable. I'd assume my midwest flatlands
unservicable would be different than Johnny paychecks Arkansas hills
unservicable.
 >>
 >> These numbers have to be somewhere
 >> --
 >> AF mailing list
 >> AF@af.afmug.com 
 >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
 >
 >
 > --
 > AF mailing list
 > AF@af.afmug.com 
 > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

-- 
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--
Lewis Bergman
325-439-0533 Cell



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Re: [AFMUG] EBS status for school districts

[Adam Moffett]

I know hindsight is 20/20, but I'll bet some of those EBS license 
holders wish they could undo their lease to Sprint and actually use it 
for distance learning like it was originally for.



On 4/14/2020 6:12 PM, Eric Nielsen wrote:
From my understanding, the educational entities had to have requested 
and been assigned a license back when the FCC was issuing them. If 
they don't currently have a license they're out of luck, as the band 
is being repurposed for commercial use.


On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 6:03 PM Steve Jones > wrote:


That's what I'm concerned about.  The window is thin to get into
it. I know zero about it. Given the current state of affairs, it
would be ideal for that auction to halt. We are positioned to
partner with districts today and solve any remaining gaps in rural
education connectivity. It's going to pop up come the 2020/2021
school year. In a perfect world, EBS would move to a reserved
public/private partnership state. Not a lease for pay state. ie
it's only available to school districts or ISPs willing to
prioritize education connections in exchange for access to that
districts lease.

Speaking of that. Are districts default entitled to x mhz?  How
does that work. We have two districts in my town. Do each get some
or do they share and have to agree to sale/lease?



On Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 2:05 PM Eric Nielsen mailto:ericlniel...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Keep in mind that this band will be auctioned in the coming
months. School districts are selling their EBS licenses pretty
regularly since the band can legally be owned by commercial
entities now. They’re charging a premium for licenses and leases.

Comsearch can generate interactive maps showing the percentage
each block’s availability in each county of interest.

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 2:45 PM Steve Jones
mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>>
wrote:

If a guy wanted to find out what spectrum is available to
a school district, where would the guy start to look? I
assume ULS, but I wouldnt know where to begin even
-- 
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-- 
Eric Nielsen

571-508-7409
ericlniel...@gmail.com 
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Re: [AFMUG] OT virus testing

[Adam Moffett]

I certainly /hope/ it's true.  How freaking 'Murican is that?


On 4/14/2020 4:07 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:


If he wants the credit, let him have it, or he’ll have to do it 
again.  I’m thinking of another of my dad’s stories when I was a kid.  
Remember, he was in the food industry.


Supposedly at a plant that made sausage or some other ground meat 
product, several burly guys would literally shovel the trimmed cuts of 
meat into the hopper of a giant grinder. And the shovel handles would 
get slippery due to the fat in the meat.  And one day one of the burly 
guys lost his grip on the shovel and it went into the grinder and got 
ground up with the meat.  So the whole batch had to be thrown out and 
the grinder cleaned.


So the next day, the big boss from corporate came down and went on a 
tirade in front of the crew of burly guys, ending with “How could you 
do something so stupid?”  At which point the person responsible shouts 
back “Like this!” and threw another shovel into the grinder.


I can’t guarantee that my dad’s stories weren’t embellished. At the 
time, I took them all at face value.


*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *James Howard
*Sent:* Tuesday, April 14, 2020 1:32 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT virus testing

Unfortunately Chuck said he’s assigning it all to you……..  I kind of 
thought it was a group effort though.


*From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Tuesday, April 14, 2020 1:29 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >

*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT virus testing

i blame jaime

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 1:28 PM James Howard > wrote:


You’re claiming all the credit for that?

*From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com
] *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Tuesday, April 14, 2020 1:18 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT virus testing

were you here when i broke afmug?

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 1:09 PM Carl Peterson
mailto:cpeter...@portnetworks.com>>
wrote:

IT is pretty ridiculous that we can't talk about anything
without breaking lent.

Stock markets going to crash ... lent

Hurricane response ... lent

National preparedness for a pandemic ... lent

Facts still matter, or at least I think they do, and we should
be able to talk about them without getting all melty about it.

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 12:52 PM mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:

Lent

-Original Message-
From: Robert Andrews
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2020 11:45 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT virus testing

You and I are going to have to agree to disagree.   That
would be like
every state negotiating their own tariffs
internationally.   Sorry but
United States MEANS coordination at a national level. 
 They should have
set up a means to determine need and then sent what wasn't
available to
nowhere.   Come ON there was no prep for this, nothing at
a national
level.  Our Federal government has been a joke through all
this and is
become more so.   The CDC sent out initial test kits that
the states had
to go behind their back to determine that they didn't
work.   The CDC
had gotten it's pandemic response group removed a year
ago.   Steve, you
are about to have the worst of the worst in your
location.  I surely
hope you come out ok, but wouldn't it have been nice to
have _some_
national preparedness?

On 04/14/2020 10:29 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
> you saw what happened with the "united states" on
ventilators, every state
> demanded the feds give them every ventilator whether
they need them or
> not. The feds need to stay completely out of the testing
game. its
> literally the governor of each states responsibility to
make sure he has
> people in place to make sure systems operate and
communicate up the chain
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 12:09 PM Robert
mailto:i...@avantwireless.com>
> >> wrote:
>
>     At the risk of breaking Lent..   I wish we were the
United States
>     instead of the Competing States and Utah could use
some of it's
>     excess capacity to help out elsewhere while they
don't nee

Re: [AFMUG] EBS status for school districts

[Ken Hohhof]

I believe the original intent was to use it for broadcast TV.  I doubt much of 
that ever happened.  Consultants were out telling school districts this was a 
gold mine, the government was giving out free spectrum, and they should claim 
theirs and collect free money by leasing the license, which is what happened.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 8:48 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] EBS status for school districts

 

I know hindsight is 20/20, but I'll bet some of those EBS license holders wish 
they could undo their lease to Sprint and actually use it for distance learning 
like it was originally for.

 

On 4/14/2020 6:12 PM, Eric Nielsen wrote:

>From my understanding, the educational entities had to have requested and been 
>assigned a license back when the FCC was issuing them. If they don't currently 
>have a license they're out of luck, as the band is being repurposed for 
>commercial use.

 

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 6:03 PM Steve Jones mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> > wrote:

That's what I'm concerned about.  The window is thin to get into it. I know 
zero about it. Given the current state of affairs, it would be ideal for that 
auction to halt. We are positioned to partner with districts today and solve 
any remaining gaps in rural education connectivity. It's going to pop up come 
the 2020/2021 school year. In a perfect world, EBS would move to a reserved 
public/private partnership state. Not a lease for pay state. ie it's only 
available to school districts or ISPs willing to prioritize education 
connections in exchange for access to that districts lease.

 

Speaking of that. Are districts default entitled to x mhz?  How does that work. 
We have two districts in my town. Do each get some or do they share and have to 
agree to sale/lease?

 

 

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 2:05 PM Eric Nielsen mailto:ericlniel...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Keep in mind that this band will be auctioned in the coming months. School 
districts are selling their EBS licenses pretty regularly since the band can 
legally be owned by commercial entities now. They’re charging a premium for 
licenses and leases.

 

Comsearch can generate interactive maps showing the percentage each block’s 
availability in each county of interest.

 

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 2:45 PM Steve Jones mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> > wrote:

If a guy wanted to find out what spectrum is available to a school district, 
where would the guy start to look? I assume ULS, but I wouldnt know where to 
begin even

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ericlniel...@gmail.com  

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Re: [AFMUG] OT virus testing

[Adam Moffett]

I can't help imagining the shovel guy as some Brooklyn wise guy saying 
it as, "Loik 'dis ***hole"


On 4/15/2020 9:52 AM, Adam Moffett wrote:


I certainly /hope/ it's true.  How freaking 'Murican is that?


On 4/14/2020 4:07 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:


If he wants the credit, let him have it, or he’ll have to do it 
again.  I’m thinking of another of my dad’s stories when I was a 
kid.  Remember, he was in the food industry.


Supposedly at a plant that made sausage or some other ground meat 
product, several burly guys would literally shovel the trimmed cuts 
of meat into the hopper of a giant grinder. And the shovel handles 
would get slippery due to the fat in the meat.  And one day one of 
the burly guys lost his grip on the shovel and it went into the 
grinder and got ground up with the meat.  So the whole batch had to 
be thrown out and the grinder cleaned.


So the next day, the big boss from corporate came down and went on a 
tirade in front of the crew of burly guys, ending with “How could you 
do something so stupid?”  At which point the person responsible 
shouts back “Like this!” and threw another shovel into the grinder.


I can’t guarantee that my dad’s stories weren’t embellished.  At the 
time, I took them all at face value.


*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *James Howard
*Sent:* Tuesday, April 14, 2020 1:32 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT virus testing

Unfortunately Chuck said he’s assigning it all to you……..  I kind of 
thought it was a group effort though.


*From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Tuesday, April 14, 2020 1:29 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >

*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT virus testing

i blame jaime

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 1:28 PM James Howard > wrote:


You’re claiming all the credit for that?

*From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com
] *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Tuesday, April 14, 2020 1:18 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT virus testing

were you here when i broke afmug?

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 1:09 PM Carl Peterson
mailto:cpeter...@portnetworks.com>>
wrote:

IT is pretty ridiculous that we can't talk about anything
without breaking lent.

Stock markets going to crash ... lent

Hurricane response ... lent

National preparedness for a pandemic ... lent

Facts still matter, or at least I think they do, and we
should be able to talk about them without getting all melty
about it.

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 12:52 PM mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:

Lent

-Original Message-
From: Robert Andrews
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2020 11:45 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT virus testing

You and I are going to have to agree to disagree.   That
would be like
every state negotiating their own tariffs
internationally.   Sorry but
United States MEANS coordination at a national level. 
 They should have
set up a means to determine need and then sent what
wasn't available to
nowhere.   Come ON there was no prep for this, nothing at
a national
level.  Our Federal government has been a joke through
all this and is
become more so.   The CDC sent out initial test kits that
the states had
to go behind their back to determine that they didn't
work.   The CDC
had gotten it's pandemic response group removed a year
ago.   Steve, you
are about to have the worst of the worst in your
location.  I surely
hope you come out ok, but wouldn't it have been nice to
have _some_
national preparedness?

On 04/14/2020 10:29 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
> you saw what happened with the "united states" on
ventilators, every state
> demanded the feds give them every ventilator whether
they need them or
> not. The feds need to stay completely out of the
testing game. its
> literally the governor of each states responsibility to
make sure he has
> people in place to make sure systems operate and
communicate up the chain
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 12:09 PM Robert
mailto:i...@avantwireless.com>
> >> wrote:
>
>     At the risk of breaking Lent..   I wish we were the
United States
>     instead of 

[AFMUG] Trango Link 45 firmware?

[Shayne Lebrun]

I don't suppose anybody happens to have firmware for a Trango Link45 lying
around?

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Re: [AFMUG] EBS status for school districts

[Adam Moffett]

I wonder what the original vision was with "educational broadcasts".  If 
you had the "A", "B", "C", "D", or "G" block then you had 16.5Mhz plus a 
separate 6Mhz chunk about 60Mhz away.


Why a separate smaller channel if not for FDD?  Nobody duplexes TV.  
There's probably a dusty NPRM that explains the justification, but I can 
see why cell companies wanted to lease it. I have to wonder if AT&T 
lobbyists wrote the rules and educational use was just a politically 
convenient justification. This is just me wondering, of course, this is 
not a fact.



On 4/15/2020 9:59 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:


I believe the original intent was to use it for broadcast TV.  I doubt 
much of that ever happened. Consultants were out telling school 
districts this was a gold mine, the government was giving out free 
spectrum, and they should claim theirs and collect free money by 
leasing the license, which is what happened.


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Adam Moffett
*Sent:* Wednesday, April 15, 2020 8:48 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] EBS status for school districts

I know hindsight is 20/20, but I'll bet some of those EBS license 
holders wish they could undo their lease to Sprint and actually use it 
for distance learning like it was originally for.


On 4/14/2020 6:12 PM, Eric Nielsen wrote:

From my understanding, the educational entities had to have
requested and been assigned a license back when the FCC was
issuing them. If they don't currently have a license they're out
of luck, as the band is being repurposed for commercial use.

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 6:03 PM Steve Jones
mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:

That's what I'm concerned about. The window is thin to get
into it. I know zero about it. Given the current state of
affairs, it would be ideal for that auction to halt. We are
positioned to partner with districts today and solve any
remaining gaps in rural education connectivity. It's going to
pop up come the 2020/2021 school year. In a perfect world, EBS
would move to a reserved public/private partnership state. Not
a lease for pay state. ie it's only available to school
districts or ISPs willing to prioritize education connections
in exchange for access to that districts lease.

Speaking of that. Are districts default entitled to x mhz? 
How does that work. We have two districts in my town. Do each
get some or do they share and have to agree to sale/lease?

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 2:05 PM Eric Nielsen
mailto:ericlniel...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Keep in mind that this band will be auctioned in the
coming months. School districts are selling their EBS
licenses pretty regularly since the band can legally be
owned by commercial entities now. They’re charging a
premium for licenses and leases.

Comsearch can generate interactive maps showing the
percentage each block’s availability in each county of
interest.

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 2:45 PM Steve Jones
mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:

If a guy wanted to find out what spectrum is available
to a school district, where would the guy start to
look? I assume ULS, but I wouldnt know where to begin even

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Re: [AFMUG] Edge Router Options

[Mike Hammett]

Customer edge vs. provider edge 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "TJ Trout"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2020 8:53:09 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Edge Router Options 


I keep hearing edge, edge to me means the far edge of the network, the core, 
well is the core. 


What do you call the edge of the network when you are calling your core the 
edge? 


On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 6:47 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) < 
li...@packetflux.com > wrote: 



Is there a reference somewhere that describes which options are needed for what 
on the MX204? I've been eyeing one for the edge for several months now, and 
it's getting to the point where we probably need to pull the trigger sooner 
rather than later. 


It looks like for a edge device I might only need the base licensing, but it's 
hard to tell for sure. 


On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 12:30 PM Mark Radabaugh < m...@amplex.net > wrote: 


I would suggest looking seriously at the MX204 platform. New with licensing 
it’s under 20k (negotiate hard and you can get it closer to 15k). Very powerful 
without the power, space, and line card expense of the MX80. The only real 
drawback to them is they are a single routing engine rather than dual. Having 
said that I can’t recall any time that we have had a routing engine fail on a 
MX series router. Used to happen all the time on our Cisco 7500’s - but we are 
talking ancient history there. 

We run a pair of MX204’s now, though we used a single one for a long time. 

Mark 

> On Apr 14, 2020, at 2:14 PM, Gilbert Gutierrez < 
> mailing-li...@phxinternet.com > wrote: 
> 
> I am looking to move away from Microtik on my edge. I have two CCR1072-1G-8s+ 
> routers and have had stability problems with random reboots over the last 
> year of using them. I am thinking of the Juniper MX80 platform but do not 
> know anything about their licensing (looking at used ones that I can get for 
> about $5k). I also do not know what other options are out there. 
> 
> I am needing 10G ports 
> Support for OSPF 
> Support for BGP full routes from multiple carriers 
> MPLS would be nice 
> Support VLANs 
> Support for various MTU sizes 
> 
> Thank you, 
> Gilbert 
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Re: [AFMUG] And there we have it....

[chuck]

They didn’t mention Utah and it is a reorg not a liquidation...

From: Mark Radabaugh 
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 6:08 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] And there we have it

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/frontier-communications-files-bankruptcy-protection-030635273.html
 

Dump your debts and your obligations, get more money.   Round and round it goes.

Mark



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Re: [AFMUG] Edge Router Options

[Adam Moffett]

Google the term "Hierarchical Network Design".

Edge, Core, and Access layers are the typical terminology.  Edge is 
where you interconnect with other networks.  Access is where you connect 
users.  Core is in the middle.  Edge and Access layers have different 
functionality focuses.  Edge and Access both need to be gatekeepers to a 
certain extent.  Core just needs to move traffic quickly.


.and yeah it's possible core and edge are the same box, and it's 
possible all 3 are the same box.  It's just a way of thinking about 
design.  When you expand and start needing more boxes to carry load it's 
a useful way of segregating functions.



On 4/14/2020 9:53 PM, TJ Trout wrote:
I keep hearing edge, edge to me means the far edge of the network, the 
core, well is the core.


What do you call the edge of the network when you are calling your 
core the edge?


On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 6:47 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) 
mailto:li...@packetflux.com>> wrote:


Is there a reference somewhere that describes which options are
needed for what on the MX204?   I've been eyeing one for the edge
for several months now, and it's getting to the point where we
probably need to pull the trigger sooner rather than later.

It looks like for a edge device I might only need the base
licensing, but it's hard to tell for sure.

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 12:30 PM Mark Radabaugh mailto:m...@amplex.net>> wrote:

I would suggest looking seriously at the MX204 platform.   New
with licensing it’s under 20k (negotiate hard and you can get
it closer to 15k).     Very powerful without the power, space,
and line card expense of the MX80.   The only real drawback to
them is they are a single routing engine rather than dual.
Having said that I can’t recall any time that we have had a
routing engine fail on a MX series router.   Used to happen
all the time on our Cisco 7500’s - but we are talking ancient
history there.

We run a pair of MX204’s now, though we used a single one for
a long time.

Mark

> On Apr 14, 2020, at 2:14 PM, Gilbert Gutierrez
mailto:mailing-li...@phxinternet.com>> wrote:
>
> I am looking to move away from Microtik on my edge. I have
two CCR1072-1G-8s+ routers and have had stability problems
with random reboots over the last year of using them. I am
thinking of the Juniper MX80 platform but do not know anything
about their licensing (looking at used ones that I can get for
about $5k). I also do not know what other options are out there.
>
> I am needing 10G ports
> Support for OSPF
> Support for BGP full routes from multiple carriers
> MPLS would be nice
> Support VLANs
> Support for various MTU sizes
>
> Thank you,
> Gilbert
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com 
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


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Re: [AFMUG] EBS status for school districts

[Ken Hohhof]

FCC changed the band plan at some point, I forget the details and when that 
happened.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 9:12 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] EBS status for school districts

 

I wonder what the original vision was with "educational broadcasts".  If you 
had the "A", "B", "C", "D", or "G" block then you had 16.5Mhz plus a separate 
6Mhz chunk about 60Mhz away.  

Why a separate smaller channel if not for FDD?  Nobody duplexes TV.  There's 
probably a dusty NPRM that explains the justification, but I can see why cell 
companies wanted to lease it.  I have to wonder if AT&T lobbyists wrote the 
rules and educational use was just a politically convenient justification.  
This is just me wondering, of course, this is not a fact.

 

On 4/15/2020 9:59 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

I believe the original intent was to use it for broadcast TV.  I doubt much of 
that ever happened.  Consultants were out telling school districts this was a 
gold mine, the government was giving out free spectrum, and they should claim 
theirs and collect free money by leasing the license, which is what happened.

 

 

From: AF    On Behalf 
Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 8:48 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] EBS status for school districts

 

I know hindsight is 20/20, but I'll bet some of those EBS license holders wish 
they could undo their lease to Sprint and actually use it for distance learning 
like it was originally for.

 

On 4/14/2020 6:12 PM, Eric Nielsen wrote:

>From my understanding, the educational entities had to have requested and been 
>assigned a license back when the FCC was issuing them. If they don't currently 
>have a license they're out of luck, as the band is being repurposed for 
>commercial use.

 

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 6:03 PM Steve Jones mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> > wrote:

That's what I'm concerned about.  The window is thin to get into it. I know 
zero about it. Given the current state of affairs, it would be ideal for that 
auction to halt. We are positioned to partner with districts today and solve 
any remaining gaps in rural education connectivity. It's going to pop up come 
the 2020/2021 school year. In a perfect world, EBS would move to a reserved 
public/private partnership state. Not a lease for pay state. ie it's only 
available to school districts or ISPs willing to prioritize education 
connections in exchange for access to that districts lease.

 

Speaking of that. Are districts default entitled to x mhz?  How does that work. 
We have two districts in my town. Do each get some or do they share and have to 
agree to sale/lease?

 

 

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 2:05 PM Eric Nielsen mailto:ericlniel...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Keep in mind that this band will be auctioned in the coming months. School 
districts are selling their EBS licenses pretty regularly since the band can 
legally be owned by commercial entities now. They’re charging a premium for 
licenses and leases.

 

Comsearch can generate interactive maps showing the percentage each block’s 
availability in each county of interest.

 

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 2:45 PM Steve Jones mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> > wrote:

If a guy wanted to find out what spectrum is available to a school district, 
where would the guy start to look? I assume ULS, but I wouldnt know where to 
begin even

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Re: [AFMUG] Trango Link 45 firmware?

[can...@believewireless.net]

Why not just swap with with something modern?

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:03 AM Shayne Lebrun 
wrote:

> I don’t suppose anybody happens to have firmware for a Trango Link45 lying
> around?
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Re: [AFMUG] Edge Router Options

[Seth Mattinen]

On 4/15/20 7:14 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:

Customer edge vs. provider edge



I call them "border" routers; the first B in BGP literally is "border" 
and OSPF uses the term too. If someone says border router then I know 
they mean a router whose job is to exchange traffic between ASNs. Saying 
"edge" is too ambiguous for me. IMO if someone has to ask "edge of what" 
or add qualifiers then it's the wrong term. Terms like core, access, 
distribution (dist), border shouldn't need further explanation. As a 
bonus, one word descriptions are good for simple DNS.


But that's just me and I never use the term "edge" since it's unclear, 
although it has recently become a buzzword like "cloud".


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[AFMUG] Mimosa radios

[Jaime Solorza]

Saw several Mimosa radios wrapped in foil on a rooftop where there are
Ubiquiti and Cambium radios as well.
Are these Mimosa radios  that susceptible to interference through the
casing?
Signed,
Befuddled in El Paso
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Re: [AFMUG] Edge Router Options

[Mike Hammett]

PE vs. CE if you want something shorter. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Seth Mattinen"  
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 9:50:00 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Edge Router Options 

On 4/15/20 7:14 AM, Mike Hammett wrote: 
> Customer edge vs. provider edge 


I call them "border" routers; the first B in BGP literally is "border" 
and OSPF uses the term too. If someone says border router then I know 
they mean a router whose job is to exchange traffic between ASNs. Saying 
"edge" is too ambiguous for me. IMO if someone has to ask "edge of what" 
or add qualifiers then it's the wrong term. Terms like core, access, 
distribution (dist), border shouldn't need further explanation. As a 
bonus, one word descriptions are good for simple DNS. 

But that's just me and I never use the term "edge" since it's unclear, 
although it has recently become a buzzword like "cloud". 

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Re: [AFMUG] Mimosa radios

[Jay Weekley]

The seal on the B5c has been prone to leak.  Was the whole radio wrapped 
or just the outer edge?


Jaime Solorza wrote:
Saw several Mimosa radios wrapped in foil on a rooftop where there are 
Ubiquiti and Cambium radios as well.
Are these Mimosa radios  that susceptible to interference through the 
casing?

Signed,
Befuddled in El Paso





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*

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Re: [AFMUG] Mimosa radios

[Jaime Solorza]

Completely like a baked potato.

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020, 8:59 AM Jay Weekley  wrote:

> The seal on the B5c has been prone to leak.  Was the whole radio wrapped
> or just the outer edge?
>
> Jaime Solorza wrote:
> > Saw several Mimosa radios wrapped in foil on a rooftop where there are
> > Ubiquiti and Cambium radios as well.
> > Are these Mimosa radios  that susceptible to interference through the
> > casing?
> > Signed,
> > Befuddled in El Paso
> >
> >
> >
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Edge Router Options

[Seth Mattinen]

On 4/15/20 7:52 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:

PE vs. CE if you want something shorter.



I suppose anyone unfamiliar with dynamic routing protocols may have 
never seen the term "border" and just sees things as degrees of edges.


If someone says P or PE or CE they're usually talking about MPLS.

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Re: [AFMUG] Trango Link 45 firmware?

[Colin Stanners]

Do the files linked in this page work for you?
https://support.gotrango.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/214334083-Firmware-Downloads-TrangoLink-45


On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 9:03 AM Shayne Lebrun 
wrote:

> I don’t suppose anybody happens to have firmware for a Trango Link45 lying
> around?
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Re: [AFMUG] Trango Link 45 firmware?

[Ken Hohhof]

I looked in places where I might have a file still lying around, found a fair 
amount of old Trango firmware, but none for the 5010 or whatever the TLink 
model number was.  Even if I found one, I would have no way of checking if it 
was the latest.

 

We replaced all of our years ago, and are replacing the replacements.  I think 
we threw them all out, unless there is still one in the recycling pile.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of can...@believewireless.net
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 9:46 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Trango Link 45 firmware?

 

Why not just swap with with something modern?

 

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:03 AM Shayne Lebrun mailto:sleb...@corebroadband.ca> > wrote:

I don’t suppose anybody happens to have firmware for a Trango Link45 lying 
around?

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Re: [AFMUG] Edge Router Options

[Ken Hohhof]

Yeah, I feel border is more descriptive, it's on the border of your network.
I usually hear access and core for the rest, where access connects to
customers.  I used to just say tower router, but lately we have 2 routers at
some towers, one handling the backhaul links and the other handling the APs.
Sometimes with a Preseem appliance between them.

Core router is a vague term, basically not border or access.  Some people
use it to mean a bigass router, usually at a NOC.  More descriptive of how
much traffic it carries or how much it cost, than its function.  If you're
not a border router, and you're not an access router, and you're not a CPE
router, you're just a router.


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Seth Mattinen
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 9:50 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Edge Router Options

On 4/15/20 7:14 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
> Customer edge vs. provider edge


I call them "border" routers; the first B in BGP literally is "border" 
and OSPF uses the term too. If someone says border router then I know they
mean a router whose job is to exchange traffic between ASNs. Saying "edge"
is too ambiguous for me. IMO if someone has to ask "edge of what" 
or add qualifiers then it's the wrong term. Terms like core, access,
distribution (dist), border shouldn't need further explanation. As a bonus,
one word descriptions are good for simple DNS.

But that's just me and I never use the term "edge" since it's unclear,
although it has recently become a buzzword like "cloud".

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Re: [AFMUG] Edge Router Options

[chuck]

Funny, some content sources consider their edge router to be a customer 
facing router.

Kinda like banks consider a deposit into your checking account a debit.

-Original Message- 
From: Ken Hohhof

Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 9:30 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Edge Router Options

Yeah, I feel border is more descriptive, it's on the border of your network.
I usually hear access and core for the rest, where access connects to
customers.  I used to just say tower router, but lately we have 2 routers at
some towers, one handling the backhaul links and the other handling the APs.
Sometimes with a Preseem appliance between them.

Core router is a vague term, basically not border or access.  Some people
use it to mean a bigass router, usually at a NOC.  More descriptive of how
much traffic it carries or how much it cost, than its function.  If you're
not a border router, and you're not an access router, and you're not a CPE
router, you're just a router.


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Seth Mattinen
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 9:50 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Edge Router Options

On 4/15/20 7:14 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:

Customer edge vs. provider edge



I call them "border" routers; the first B in BGP literally is "border"
and OSPF uses the term too. If someone says border router then I know they
mean a router whose job is to exchange traffic between ASNs. Saying "edge"
is too ambiguous for me. IMO if someone has to ask "edge of what"
or add qualifiers then it's the wrong term. Terms like core, access,
distribution (dist), border shouldn't need further explanation. As a bonus,
one word descriptions are good for simple DNS.

But that's just me and I never use the term "edge" since it's unclear,
although it has recently become a buzzword like "cloud".

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Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

[Tim Hardy]

The FAA Notice Criteria tool mentioned by Lewis is also more accurate than 
TOWAIR and we have seen instances where it will clear towers that TOWAIR 
failed.  All we had to do was file the FAA Report data along with the TOWAIR 
data and the application was accepted.

> On Apr 14, 2020, at 7:45 PM, Lewis Bergman  wrote:
> 
> The FAA had a tool to determine if you have to file.
> https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/gisTools/gisAction.jsp?action=showNoNoticeRequiredToolForm
>  
> 
> 
> On Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 5:47 PM Ken Hohhof  > wrote:
> We have a tower next to a commercial building, I think it’s a 45 or 50 ft 
> probably Rohn 45G.  It is near a smallish regional airport but pretty much 90 
> degrees to the runway.  We need to swap out the 5 GHz backhaul links on this 
> tower for licensed.
> 
>  
> 
> The frequency coordinator is telling us that according to TOWAIR we need to 
> file for an ASR, I assume they mean not just with the FCC but with the FAA.
> 
>  
> 
> By doing so, are we opening Pandora’s box, where they tell us not only is our 
> request denied, we have to take down the tower that has been there for 20 
> years?  Is this one of those things where we will really regret asking the 
> question and should have just kept quiet and suffered with the 5 GHz 
> interference?
> 
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Re: [AFMUG] And there we have it....

[Josh Luthman]

"With this agreement with our bondholders, we can now focus on executing
our strategy to drive operational efficiencies and position our business
for long-term growth."

The hell were you doing before, Bernie?

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:23 AM  wrote:

> They didn’t mention Utah and it is a reorg not a liquidation...
>
> *From:* Mark Radabaugh
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 15, 2020 6:08 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] And there we have it
>
>
> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/frontier-communications-files-bankruptcy-protection-030635273.html
>
> Dump your debts and your obligations, get more money.   Round and round it
> goes.
>
> Mark
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Edge Router Options

[Peter Kranz via AF]

~12k for a 7280R2 w/ flexroute and expanded memory.

 

Peter Kranz
www.UnwiredLtd.com  
Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
Mobile: 510-207-
pkr...@unwiredltd.com  

 

From: Mark Frost  
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2020 5:47 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: Peter Kranz 
Subject: RE: [AFMUG] Edge Router Options

 

Hi Peter,

 

What sort of numbers are you looking at for the 7280SR with flexroute?

 

Cheers,
Mark

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Peter Kranz via AF
Sent: Wednesday, 15 April 2020 08:19
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Cc: Peter Kranz mailto:pkr...@unwiredltd.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Edge Router Options

 

You may want to consider Arista w/ flexroute for full routes. The 7280SR 
platform is 48 10G ports + 6 100G ports.

 

Peter Kranz
www.UnwiredLtd.com  
Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
Mobile: 510-207-
pkr...@unwiredltd.com  

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Gilbert Gutierrez
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2020 11:14 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com  
Subject: [AFMUG] Edge Router Options

 

I am looking to move away from Microtik on my edge. I have two CCR1072-1G-8s+ 
routers and have had stability problems with random reboots over the last year 
of using them. I am thinking of the Juniper MX80 platform but do not know 
anything about their licensing (looking at used ones that I can get for about 
$5k). I also do not know what other options are out there.

I am needing 10G ports

Support for OSPF

Support for BGP full routes from multiple carriers

MPLS would be nice

Support VLANs

Support for various MTU sizes

 

Thank you,

Gilbert

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Re: [AFMUG] And there we have it....

[Ken Hohhof]

“drive operation efficiencies” is corporate-speak for layoffs, right?

 

But yeah, efficiency and growth doesn’t sound like a revolutionary new approach 
just discovered recently.

 

Maybe they mean “all we could do until now was figure out each month how to pay 
the interest on our crushing debt, and now we might actually have some money to 
deploy something modern like fiber or wireless that customers actually want”.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 11:11 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] And there we have it

 

"With this agreement with our bondholders, we can now focus on executing our 
strategy to drive operational efficiencies and position our business for 
long-term growth."

 

The hell were you doing before, Bernie?


 

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

 

 

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:23 AM mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com> > 
wrote:

They didn’t mention Utah and it is a reorg not a liquidation...

 

From: Mark Radabaugh 

Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 6:08 AM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: [AFMUG] And there we have it

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/frontier-communications-files-bankruptcy-protection-030635273.html
 

 

Dump your debts and your obligations, get more money.   Round and round it goes.

 

Mark


  _  


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Re: [AFMUG] Mimosa radios

[Jay Weekley]

Well, that's odd.

Jaime Solorza wrote:

Completely like a baked potato.

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020, 8:59 AM Jay Weekley > wrote:


The seal on the B5c has been prone to leak.  Was the whole radio
wrapped
or just the outer edge?

Jaime Solorza wrote:
> Saw several Mimosa radios wrapped in foil on a rooftop where
there are
> Ubiquiti and Cambium radios as well.
> Are these Mimosa radios  that susceptible to interference
through the
> casing?
> Signed,
> Befuddled in El Paso
>
>
>

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*Cyber Broadband
*

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Re: [AFMUG] Edge Router Options

[Gilbert Gutierrez]

When I asked about the edge, I was referring to my equipment that connects
to my carriers. My edge like many other WiSPS has a bit of an overlap with
my core. Some WiSPS the edge and the core are the same device.

Gilbert

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 6:54 PM TJ Trout  wrote:

> I keep hearing edge, edge to me means the far edge of the network, the
> core, well is the core.
>
> What do you call the edge of the network when you are calling your core
> the edge?
>
> On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 6:47 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
> li...@packetflux.com> wrote:
>
>> Is there a reference somewhere that describes which options are needed
>> for what on the MX204?   I've been eyeing one for the edge for several
>> months now, and it's getting to the point where we probably need to pull
>> the trigger sooner rather than later.
>>
>> It looks like for a edge device I might only need the base licensing, but
>> it's hard to tell for sure.
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 12:30 PM Mark Radabaugh  wrote:
>>
>>> I would suggest looking seriously at the MX204 platform.   New with
>>> licensing it’s under 20k (negotiate hard and you can get it closer to
>>> 15k). Very powerful without the power, space, and line card expense of
>>> the MX80.   The only real drawback to them is they are a single routing
>>> engine rather than dual.  Having said that I can’t recall any time that we
>>> have had a routing engine fail on a MX series router.   Used to happen all
>>> the time on our Cisco 7500’s - but we are talking ancient history there.
>>>
>>> We run a pair of MX204’s now, though we used a single one for a long
>>> time.
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>> > On Apr 14, 2020, at 2:14 PM, Gilbert Gutierrez <
>>> mailing-li...@phxinternet.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > I am looking to move away from Microtik on my edge. I have two
>>> CCR1072-1G-8s+ routers and have had stability problems with random reboots
>>> over the last year of using them. I am thinking of the Juniper MX80
>>> platform but do not know anything about their licensing (looking at used
>>> ones that I can get for about $5k). I also do not know what other options
>>> are out there.
>>> >
>>> > I am needing 10G ports
>>> > Support for OSPF
>>> > Support for BGP full routes from multiple carriers
>>> > MPLS would be nice
>>> > Support VLANs
>>> > Support for various MTU sizes
>>> >
>>> > Thank you,
>>> > Gilbert
>>> > --
>>> > AF mailing list
>>> > AF@af.afmug.com
>>> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> - Forrest
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Re: [AFMUG] Edge Router Options

[chuck]

I totally agree.  To me, edge interconnects with upstream providers and if it 
is a decently powered device it can also be a core and even an access router 
for smaller systems.  

From: Gilbert Gutierrez 
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 10:45 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Edge Router Options

When I asked about the edge, I was referring to my equipment that connects to 
my carriers. My edge like many other WiSPS has a bit of an overlap with my 
core. Some WiSPS the edge and the core are the same device. 

Gilbert

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 6:54 PM TJ Trout  wrote:

  I keep hearing edge, edge to me means the far edge of the network, the core, 
well is the core. 

  What do you call the edge of the network when you are calling your core the 
edge? 

  On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 6:47 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) 
 wrote:

Is there a reference somewhere that describes which options are needed for 
what on the MX204?   I've been eyeing one for the edge for several months now, 
and it's getting to the point where we probably need to pull the trigger sooner 
rather than later. 

It looks like for a edge device I might only need the base licensing, but 
it's hard to tell for sure.

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 12:30 PM Mark Radabaugh  wrote:

  I would suggest looking seriously at the MX204 platform.   New with 
licensing it’s under 20k (negotiate hard and you can get it closer to 15k). 
Very powerful without the power, space, and line card expense of the MX80.   
The only real drawback to them is they are a single routing engine rather than 
dual.  Having said that I can’t recall any time that we have had a routing 
engine fail on a MX series router.   Used to happen all the time on our Cisco 
7500’s - but we are talking ancient history there.

  We run a pair of MX204’s now, though we used a single one for a long time.

  Mark

  > On Apr 14, 2020, at 2:14 PM, Gilbert Gutierrez 
 wrote:
  > 
  > I am looking to move away from Microtik on my edge. I have two 
CCR1072-1G-8s+ routers and have had stability problems with random reboots over 
the last year of using them. I am thinking of the Juniper MX80 platform but do 
not know anything about their licensing (looking at used ones that I can get 
for about $5k). I also do not know what other options are out there.
  > 
  > I am needing 10G ports
  > Support for OSPF
  > Support for BGP full routes from multiple carriers
  > MPLS would be nice
  > Support VLANs
  > Support for various MTU sizes
  > 
  > Thank you,
  > Gilbert
  > -- 
  > AF mailing list
  > AF@af.afmug.com
  > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


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Re: [AFMUG] EBS status for school districts

[Gino A. Villarini]

Exactly… that was not the original bandplan..


Gino Villarini
Founder/President
@gvillarini
t: 787.273.4143 Ext. 204
m:
[https://mcusercontent.com/491678685aaddc31e08616413/images/756812e5-24a6-4693-a923-7a1d8f55546d.png]
[https://image.ibb.co/noQeyp/inc500.png] 
  
[https://image.ibb.co/e4pBB9/fb-logo.png]  
[https://image.ibb.co/nxuuW9/insta-logo.png] 
   
[https://image.ibb.co/jhSEW9/in-logo.png] 
 
[https://image.ibb.co/dqqq4U/tw-logo.png] 

[https://image.ibb.co/bAJcjU/yt-logo.png] 

www.aeronetpr.com | Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 
Guaynabo, PR 00968
From: AF  on behalf of Ken Hohhof 
Reply-To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Date: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 at 10:47 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] EBS status for school districts

FCC changed the band plan at some point, I forget the details and when that 
happened.

From: AF  On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 9:12 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] EBS status for school districts


I wonder what the original vision was with "educational broadcasts".  If you 
had the "A", "B", "C", "D", or "G" block then you had 16.5Mhz plus a separate 
6Mhz chunk about 60Mhz away.

Why a separate smaller channel if not for FDD?  Nobody duplexes TV.  There's 
probably a dusty NPRM that explains the justification, but I can see why cell 
companies wanted to lease it.  I have to wonder if AT&T lobbyists wrote the 
rules and educational use was just a politically convenient justification.  
This is just me wondering, of course, this is not a fact.


On 4/15/2020 9:59 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
I believe the original intent was to use it for broadcast TV.  I doubt much of 
that ever happened.  Consultants were out telling school districts this was a 
gold mine, the government was giving out free spectrum, and they should claim 
theirs and collect free money by leasing the license, which is what happened.


From: AF  On Behalf Of 
Adam Moffett
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 8:48 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] EBS status for school districts


I know hindsight is 20/20, but I'll bet some of those EBS license holders wish 
they could undo their lease to Sprint and actually use it for distance learning 
like it was originally for.


On 4/14/2020 6:12 PM, Eric Nielsen wrote:
From my understanding, the educational entities had to have requested and been 
assigned a license back when the FCC was issuing them. If they don't currently 
have a license they're out of luck, as the band is being repurposed for 
commercial use.

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 6:03 PM Steve Jones 
mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:
That's what I'm concerned about.  The window is thin to get into it. I know 
zero about it. Given the current state of affairs, it would be ideal for that 
auction to halt. We are positioned to partner with districts today and solve 
any remaining gaps in rural education connectivity. It's going to pop up come 
the 2020/2021 school year. In a perfect world, EBS would move to a reserved 
public/private partnership state. Not a lease for pay state. ie it's only 
available to school districts or ISPs willing to prioritize education 
connections in exchange for access to that districts lease.

Speaking of that. Are districts default entitled to x mhz?  How does that work. 
We have two districts in my town. Do each get some or do they share and have to 
agree to sale/lease?


On Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 2:05 PM Eric Nielsen 
mailto:ericlniel...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Keep in mind that this band will be auctioned in the coming months. School 
districts are selling their EBS licenses pretty regularly since the band can 
legally be owned by commercial entities now. They’re charging a premium for 
licenses and leases.

Comsearch can generate interactive maps showing the percentage each block’s 
availability in each county of interest.

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 2:45 PM Steve Jones 
mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:
If a guy wanted to find out what spectrum is available to a school district, 
where would the guy start to look? I assume ULS, but I wouldnt know where to 
begin even
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Re: [AFMUG] Trango Link 45 firmware?

[Mark Radabaugh]

I have some SmartBridges software around here somewhere…

Mark

> On Apr 15, 2020, at 11:23 AM, Ken Hohhof  wrote:
> 
> I looked in places where I might have a file still lying around, found a fair 
> amount of old Trango firmware, but none for the 5010 or whatever the TLink 
> model number was.  Even if I found one, I would have no way of checking if it 
> was the latest.
>  
> We replaced all of our years ago, and are replacing the replacements.  I 
> think we threw them all out, unless there is still one in the recycling pile.
>  
>  
> From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf 
> Of can...@believewireless.net 
> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 9:46 AM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group  >
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Trango Link 45 firmware?
>  
> Why not just swap with with something modern?
>  
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:03 AM Shayne Lebrun  > wrote:
>> I don’t suppose anybody happens to have firmware for a Trango Link45 lying 
>> around?
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Re: [AFMUG] Trango Link 45 firmware?

[Bill Prince]

  
  
Oh, my packrat genes behold. I have two TL45 firmware folders
  labeled 1p2r2 and 2p0r2. You want one (or both) of them?


bp



On 4/15/2020 7:46 AM,
  can...@believewireless.net wrote:


  
  
Why not just
  swap with with something modern?
  
  
  
On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:03
  AM Shayne Lebrun 
  wrote:


  

  I don’t suppose anybody happens to
have firmware for a Trango Link45 lying around?

  
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Re: [AFMUG] Market saturation

[Mark Radabaugh]

I’m sticking with my 85% number, and I have the customers and data to prove it.

Mark

> On Apr 15, 2020, at 9:48 AM, Matt Hoppes  
> wrote:
> 
> That also is what we have found.
> 
> I was actually going to say 35% take rate -- but since I've gotten shot down 
> on previous e-mails where I've sent out "crazy" and "ridiculous" statistics, 
> I figured I'd send the higher end of the spectrum :)
> 
> On 4/15/20 9:12 AM, Lewis Bergman wrote:
>> I second the 50% rate. Probably 35% if you have some other competition other 
>> than satellite. At either one of those rates, you should have enough 
>> neighbor referrals that anything other than a yard sign would be a waste.
>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 6:36 AM Matt Hoppes 
>> > > wrote:
>>We see about 50% take rate even when we are the only option.
>> > On Apr 15, 2020, at 6:26 AM, Mark Radabaugh >> wrote:
>> >
>> > I’m thinking around 85%.   Some depends on your market.   We have
>>a few areas where I think about 5% of the housing is abandoned. Take 
>> another 10% that are not interested.  There is an older
>>population that just isn’t interested or that their needs are met by
>>iPads and cellular.
>> >
>> > That 85% number seems consistent for us on both wireless and
>>fiber routes.
>> >
>> > Mark
>> >
>> >> On Apr 15, 2020, at 12:29 AM, Steve Jones
>>mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> What percentage of rural customers would you all consider saturated?
>> >>
>> >> I have access to some new datasets and it disturbing. It's good
>>disturbing, but unanticipated.
>> >>
>> >> May be bad.
>> >>
>> >> Is there a rural percentage of capture that is considered
>>saturated as a standard? 100 percent is what we all want. But there
>>are customers who dont want, or simply cannot afford internet
>>access. There has to be some numbers out there.
>> >>
>> >> I doubt government numbers count, since government is dumb.
>>Where does a simpleton such as myself go to find out what is
>>considered saturated?
>> >>
>> >> Say I touch 1000 households. What is the percentage of capture
>>that marketing is no longer recommended? If I have 500 of them, I'd
>>think that's pretty good, maybe even saturated between lack of need,
>>want, or ability and offset by whatever percentage per terrain would
>>be co sided unservicable. I'd assume my midwest flatlands
>>unservicable would be different than Johnny paychecks Arkansas hills
>>unservicable.
>> >>
>> >> These numbers have to be somewhere
>> >> --
>> >> AF mailing list
>> >> AF@af.afmug.com 
>> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > AF mailing list
>> > AF@af.afmug.com 
>> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>-- AF mailing list
>>AF@af.afmug.com 
>>http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>> -- 
>> Lewis Bergman
>> 325-439-0533 Cell
> 
> -- 
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


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Re: [AFMUG] And there we have it....

[Robert]

Void any union contracts that may have been signed

On 4/15/20 9:35 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:


“drive operation efficiencies” is corporate-speak for layoffs, right?

But yeah, efficiency and growth doesn’t sound like a revolutionary new 
approach just discovered recently.


Maybe they mean “all we could do until now was figure out each month 
how to pay the interest on our crushing debt, and now we might 
actually have some money to deploy something modern like fiber or 
wireless that customers actually want”.


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Josh Luthman
*Sent:* Wednesday, April 15, 2020 11:11 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] And there we have it

"With this agreement with our bondholders, we can now focus on 
executing our strategy to drive operational efficiencies and position 
our business for long-term growth."


The hell were you doing before, Bernie?

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:23 AM > wrote:


They didn’t mention Utah and it is a reorg not a liquidation...

*From:*Mark Radabaugh

*Sent:*Wednesday, April 15, 2020 6:08 AM

*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

*Subject:*[AFMUG] And there we have it


https://finance.yahoo.com/news/frontier-communications-files-bankruptcy-protection-030635273.html


Dump your debts and your obligations, get more money. Round and
round it goes.

Mark



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Re: [AFMUG] Market saturation

[Ken Hohhof]

There's market share and total adoption, usually those are different numbers, 
depending on the amount of competition.

Sometimes I drive down a road and can spot a WISP dish on almost every house, 
but split among 3-4 different WISPs.  Harder to tell who has DSL, or even the 
occasional poor sucker still using Hughesnet or Exede if the dish is not 
visible from the road.

There are also people who only use their phone, and don't have a smart TV or 
game console.  Many people today don't own a computer, unless the kids have 
Chromebooks from school.  Some of these people are happy with just cellular 
data.

Then there are the people who don't want no stinkin' Internet.  That's probably 
around 10%.  Add those to the cellular only people, and the available market is 
probably around 80-90% depending on demographics in your area.  Hence Mark's 
85% number

But assuming you have other WISP competition, your are not going to get that 
entire 85%, even if you have the best service and the lowest prices.  Sometimes 
I feel we have reached the point where the only growth is poaching customers 
from other WISPs.  Not really where I want to be, unless the competitor is 
really screwing up.


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark Radabaugh
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 12:24 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Market saturation

I’m sticking with my 85% number, and I have the customers and data to prove it.

Mark

> On Apr 15, 2020, at 9:48 AM, Matt Hoppes  
> wrote:
> 
> That also is what we have found.
> 
> I was actually going to say 35% take rate -- but since I've gotten shot down 
> on previous e-mails where I've sent out "crazy" and "ridiculous" statistics, 
> I figured I'd send the higher end of the spectrum :)
> 
> On 4/15/20 9:12 AM, Lewis Bergman wrote:
>> I second the 50% rate. Probably 35% if you have some other competition other 
>> than satellite. At either one of those rates, you should have enough 
>> neighbor referrals that anything other than a yard sign would be a waste.
>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 6:36 AM Matt Hoppes 
>> > > wrote:
>>We see about 50% take rate even when we are the only option.
>> > On Apr 15, 2020, at 6:26 AM, Mark Radabaugh >> wrote:
>> >
>> > I’m thinking around 85%.   Some depends on your market.   We have
>>a few areas where I think about 5% of the housing is abandoned. Take 
>> another 10% that are not interested.  There is an older
>>population that just isn’t interested or that their needs are met by
>>iPads and cellular.
>> >
>> > That 85% number seems consistent for us on both wireless and
>>fiber routes.
>> >
>> > Mark
>> >
>> >> On Apr 15, 2020, at 12:29 AM, Steve Jones
>>mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> What percentage of rural customers would you all consider saturated?
>> >>
>> >> I have access to some new datasets and it disturbing. It's good
>>disturbing, but unanticipated.
>> >>
>> >> May be bad.
>> >>
>> >> Is there a rural percentage of capture that is considered
>>saturated as a standard? 100 percent is what we all want. But there
>>are customers who dont want, or simply cannot afford internet
>>access. There has to be some numbers out there.
>> >>
>> >> I doubt government numbers count, since government is dumb.
>>Where does a simpleton such as myself go to find out what is
>>considered saturated?
>> >>
>> >> Say I touch 1000 households. What is the percentage of capture
>>that marketing is no longer recommended? If I have 500 of them, I'd
>>think that's pretty good, maybe even saturated between lack of need,
>>want, or ability and offset by whatever percentage per terrain would
>>be co sided unservicable. I'd assume my midwest flatlands
>>unservicable would be different than Johnny paychecks Arkansas hills
>>unservicable.
>> >>
>> >> These numbers have to be somewhere
>> >> --
>> >> AF mailing list
>> >> AF@af.afmug.com 
>> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > AF mailing list
>> > AF@af.afmug.com 
>> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>-- AF mailing list
>>AF@af.afmug.com 
>>http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>> -- 
>> Lewis Bergman
>> 325-439-0533 Cell
> 
> -- 
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


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Re: [AFMUG] And there we have it....

[Ken Hohhof]

I don’t know if bankruptcy lets you do that, but it would kind of make sense.  
No doubt part of the reason AT&T and Verizon wanted to dump all those copper 
networks was the craft was unionized whereas the mobile side of their business 
probably is non-union or even outsourced.  How do we get rid of CWA and IBEW?  
Sell it off to Frontier.  Hey, Mikey!

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Robert
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 12:38 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] And there we have it

 

Void any union contracts that may have been signed

On 4/15/20 9:35 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

“drive operation efficiencies” is corporate-speak for layoffs, right?

 

But yeah, efficiency and growth doesn’t sound like a revolutionary new approach 
just discovered recently.

 

Maybe they mean “all we could do until now was figure out each month how to pay 
the interest on our crushing debt, and now we might actually have some money to 
deploy something modern like fiber or wireless that customers actually want”.

 

 

From: AF    On Behalf 
Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 11:11 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group   
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] And there we have it

 

"With this agreement with our bondholders, we can now focus on executing our 
strategy to drive operational efficiencies and position our business for 
long-term growth."

 

The hell were you doing before, Bernie?


 

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

 

 

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:23 AM mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com> > 
wrote:

They didn’t mention Utah and it is a reorg not a liquidation...

 

From: Mark Radabaugh 

Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 6:08 AM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: [AFMUG] And there we have it

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/frontier-communications-files-bankruptcy-protection-030635273.html
 

 

Dump your debts and your obligations, get more money.   Round and round it goes.

 

Mark


  _  


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Re: [AFMUG] Market saturation

[Lewis Bergman]

Thats great. That shows the variability between markets.

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 12:25 PM Mark Radabaugh  wrote:

> I’m sticking with my 85% number, and I have the customers and data to
> prove it.
>
> Mark
>
> > On Apr 15, 2020, at 9:48 AM, Matt Hoppes <
> mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:
> >
> > That also is what we have found.
> >
> > I was actually going to say 35% take rate -- but since I've gotten shot
> down on previous e-mails where I've sent out "crazy" and "ridiculous"
> statistics, I figured I'd send the higher end of the spectrum :)
> >
> > On 4/15/20 9:12 AM, Lewis Bergman wrote:
> >> I second the 50% rate. Probably 35% if you have some other competition
> other than satellite. At either one of those rates, you should have enough
> neighbor referrals that anything other than a yard sign would be a waste.
> >> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 6:36 AM Matt Hoppes <
> mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net  mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net>> wrote:
> >>We see about 50% take rate even when we are the only option.
> >> > On Apr 15, 2020, at 6:26 AM, Mark Radabaugh  >>> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I’m thinking around 85%.   Some depends on your market.   We have
> >>a few areas where I think about 5% of the housing is abandoned.
>  Take another 10% that are not interested.  There is an older
> >>population that just isn’t interested or that their needs are met by
> >>iPads and cellular.
> >> >
> >> > That 85% number seems consistent for us on both wireless and
> >>fiber routes.
> >> >
> >> > Mark
> >> >
> >> >> On Apr 15, 2020, at 12:29 AM, Steve Jones
> >>mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> What percentage of rural customers would you all consider
> saturated?
> >> >>
> >> >> I have access to some new datasets and it disturbing. It's good
> >>disturbing, but unanticipated.
> >> >>
> >> >> May be bad.
> >> >>
> >> >> Is there a rural percentage of capture that is considered
> >>saturated as a standard? 100 percent is what we all want. But there
> >>are customers who dont want, or simply cannot afford internet
> >>access. There has to be some numbers out there.
> >> >>
> >> >> I doubt government numbers count, since government is dumb.
> >>Where does a simpleton such as myself go to find out what is
> >>considered saturated?
> >> >>
> >> >> Say I touch 1000 households. What is the percentage of capture
> >>that marketing is no longer recommended? If I have 500 of them, I'd
> >>think that's pretty good, maybe even saturated between lack of need,
> >>want, or ability and offset by whatever percentage per terrain would
> >>be co sided unservicable. I'd assume my midwest flatlands
> >>unservicable would be different than Johnny paychecks Arkansas hills
> >>unservicable.
> >> >>
> >> >> These numbers have to be somewhere
> >> >> --
> >> >> AF mailing list
> >> >> AF@af.afmug.com 
> >> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > AF mailing list
> >> > AF@af.afmug.com 
> >> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> >>-- AF mailing list
> >>AF@af.afmug.com 
> >>http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> >> --
> >> Lewis Bergman
> >> 325-439-0533 Cell
> >
> > --
> > AF mailing list
> > AF@af.afmug.com
> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>


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325-439-0533 Cell
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Re: [AFMUG] Trango Link 45 firmware?

[Shayne Lebrun]

I intend to, but in the meantime, I was hoping a firmware reload would fix a 
problem with an existing link.

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of 
can...@believewireless.net
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 10:46 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Trango Link 45 firmware?

 

Why not just swap with with something modern?

 

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:03 AM Shayne Lebrun  wrote:

I don’t suppose anybody happens to have firmware for a Trango Link45 lying 
around?

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Re: [AFMUG] Trango Link 45 firmware?

[Shayne Lebrun]

No, because those links don’t go to firmware files but to squatter domains.

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Colin Stanners
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 11:14 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Trango Link 45 firmware?

 

Do the files linked in this page work for you?  
https://support.gotrango.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/214334083-Firmware-Downloads-TrangoLink-45

 

 

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 9:03 AM Shayne Lebrun  wrote:

I don’t suppose anybody happens to have firmware for a Trango Link45 lying 
around?

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Re: [AFMUG] And there we have it....

[Brian Webster]

Bingo. Remembering they have merged/acquired a lot of companies and union 
contracts may have been a big part of that. Pension funding and healthcare 
costs could be a big burden and vary from market to market causing discontent 
among workers too.

 

Thank you,

Brian Webster

www.wirelessmapping.com

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Robert
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 1:38 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] And there we have it

 

Void any union contracts that may have been signed

On 4/15/20 9:35 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

“drive operation efficiencies” is corporate-speak for layoffs, right?

 

But yeah, efficiency and growth doesn’t sound like a revolutionary new approach 
just discovered recently.

 

Maybe they mean “all we could do until now was figure out each month how to pay 
the interest on our crushing debt, and now we might actually have some money to 
deploy something modern like fiber or wireless that customers actually want”.

 

 

From: AF    On Behalf 
Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 11:11 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group   
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] And there we have it

 

"With this agreement with our bondholders, we can now focus on executing our 
strategy to drive operational efficiencies and position our business for 
long-term growth."

 

The hell were you doing before, Bernie?


 

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

 

 

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:23 AM  wrote:

They didn’t mention Utah and it is a reorg not a liquidation...

 

From: Mark Radabaugh 

Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 6:08 AM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: [AFMUG] And there we have it

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/frontier-communications-files-bankruptcy-protection-030635273.html
 

 

Dump your debts and your obligations, get more money.   Round and round it goes.

 

Mark


  _  


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Re: [AFMUG] Trango Link 45 firmware?

[Ryan Ray]

Link works for me.

v2.0r3


Resolved Issues:
- Fixed: Failed to set power 19 or more in Ch16
- Fixed: Failed to upgrade IC to 2p0r2



v2.0r2


Resolved Issues:
- Improvement to VLAN for management access
- Reset power settings after reboot
- Incorrect result display between Avg dBm and Peak dBm after site survey
through HTTP
- Allow administrator to disable auto rate shifting

Enhancements:
- Allow administrator to ignore DFS signal (OE version only)
rdrignore [on|off] - default is off
- "[Elapse]" for DFS's cac in "sysinfo"
- "autoscanmu" for RU



v2.0v1


New Features:
- VLAN aware
- Class of Service (COS) capable



v2.0r1

- Original Release

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 11:29 AM Shayne Lebrun 
wrote:

> No, because those links don’t go to firmware files but to squatter domains.
>
>
>
> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Colin Stanners
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 15, 2020 11:14 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Trango Link 45 firmware?
>
>
>
> Do the files linked in this page work for you?
> https://support.gotrango.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/214334083-Firmware-Downloads-TrangoLink-45
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 9:03 AM Shayne Lebrun 
> wrote:
>
> I don’t suppose anybody happens to have firmware for a Trango Link45 lying
> around?
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
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> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Trango Link 45 firmware?

[Ryan Ray]

Oh nevermind, yea those links are busted. Just email trango they should be
able to send them. Ray Sewell is on the ball over there.


On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 12:04 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:

> Link works for me.
>
> v2.0r3
> 
>
> Resolved Issues:
> - Fixed: Failed to set power 19 or more in Ch16
> - Fixed: Failed to upgrade IC to 2p0r2
>
>
> 
>
> v2.0r2
> 
>
> Resolved Issues:
> - Improvement to VLAN for management access
> - Reset power settings after reboot
> - Incorrect result display between Avg dBm and Peak dBm after site survey
> through HTTP
> - Allow administrator to disable auto rate shifting
>
> Enhancements:
> - Allow administrator to ignore DFS signal (OE version only)
> rdrignore [on|off] - default is off
> - "[Elapse]" for DFS's cac in "sysinfo"
> - "autoscanmu" for RU
>
>
> 
>
> v2.0v1
> 
>
> New Features:
> - VLAN aware
> - Class of Service (COS) capable
>
>
> 
>
> v2.0r1
> 
> - Original Release
>
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 11:29 AM Shayne Lebrun 
> wrote:
>
>> No, because those links don’t go to firmware files but to squatter
>> domains.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Colin Stanners
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 15, 2020 11:14 AM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Trango Link 45 firmware?
>>
>>
>>
>> Do the files linked in this page work for you?
>> https://support.gotrango.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/214334083-Firmware-Downloads-TrangoLink-45
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 9:03 AM Shayne Lebrun 
>> wrote:
>>
>> I don’t suppose anybody happens to have firmware for a Trango Link45
>> lying around?
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Market saturation

[Brian Webster]

As Ken mentioned there are 2 different numbers to talk about. YOUR market 
capture rate and total broadband adoption rate for a given area. In the 
broadband mapping program we spent a lot of time on this topic. The best way I 
can suggest you look at this is to first find the latest data on broadband 
adoption for your state. That number should be typically between 70 and 80 
percent. Meaning that of all households in a state, that percentage is 
subscribed to some sort of broadband. It is a total aggregate number, not any 
particular carrier. The next step then would be to figure out the number of 
homes your network passes or can serve (you do know that don’t you?). The 
further segment that number to the homes you are the only option and those that 
you have competition. 

 

For the homes passed where you are the only option, you should be able to 
achieve the state adoption rate as your market capture percentage. If not you 
may want to consider spending time on your marketing and product placement 
efforts. The fish don’t just jump in to the boat. You do have some competition 
in the form of cellular and satellite but with proper advertising and marketing 
efforts you  should be the major player.

 

For the homes you pass where there is competition, figuring out a good 
penetration rate will be difficult depending on who the competition is. If it’s 
only DSL you should be able to garner a higher take rate IF you are doing a 
good job on marketing. Competing against the major cable companies, they do a 
decent job so that’s real competition. Smaller providers will be a mixed bag 
depending on how well those companies are run and their product offerings.

 

The biggest and first thing that needs to be known if your total homes passed. 
You can get a good idea of that by adding up the household counts for the 
census blocks you show as served in your FCC form 477 filing because those are 
supposed to show where you can serve, not just the ones your billing platform 
shows where you have customers. You have been filing your 477 reports haven’t 
you?

 

While those pain in the rump programs are required, you can take those efforts 
and put the results to uses that do help with your business.

 

If you have been filing the form 477, I can even pull the latest FCC form 477 
data and tell you which blocks you filed have other competition broadband in 
them. This makes it easy to tally your homes passed both with and without 
competition. Then you can use those results and compare them against your 
customer data (and map those) to investigate the areas in your network where 
your market rate seems to be weak and could benefit from improved efforts. Do 
more to maximize those markets you have already invested in.

 

Thank you,

Brian Webster

www.wirelessmapping.com

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Lewis Bergman
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 2:02 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Market saturation

 

Thats great. That shows the variability between markets.

 

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 12:25 PM Mark Radabaugh  wrote:

I’m sticking with my 85% number, and I have the customers and data to prove it.

Mark

> On Apr 15, 2020, at 9:48 AM, Matt Hoppes  
> wrote:
> 
> That also is what we have found.
> 
> I was actually going to say 35% take rate -- but since I've gotten shot down 
> on previous e-mails where I've sent out "crazy" and "ridiculous" statistics, 
> I figured I'd send the higher end of the spectrum :)
> 
> On 4/15/20 9:12 AM, Lewis Bergman wrote:
>> I second the 50% rate. Probably 35% if you have some other competition other 
>> than satellite. At either one of those rates, you should have enough 
>> neighbor referrals that anything other than a yard sign would be a waste.
>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 6:36 AM Matt Hoppes 
>> > > wrote:
>>We see about 50% take rate even when we are the only option.
>> > On Apr 15, 2020, at 6:26 AM, Mark Radabaugh >> wrote:
>> >
>> > I’m thinking around 85%.   Some depends on your market.   We have
>>a few areas where I think about 5% of the housing is abandoned. Take 
>> another 10% that are not interested.  There is an older
>>population that just isn’t interested or that their needs are met by
>>iPads and cellular.
>> >
>> > That 85% number seems consistent for us on both wireless and
>>fiber routes.
>> >
>> > Mark
>> >
>> >> On Apr 15, 2020, at 12:29 AM, Steve Jones
>>mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> What percentage of rural customers would you all consider saturated?
>> >>
>> >> I have access to some new datasets and it disturbing. It's good
>>disturbing, but unanticipated.
>> >>
>> >> May be bad.
>> >>
>> >> Is there a rural percentage of capture that is considered
>>saturated as a standard? 100 percent is what we all

Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

[Brian Webster]

Tim is correct. TOWAIR will err on the conservative side so that if something 
is a close call, it will defer that decision to the FAA to do their precise 
study. A couple of key things to note. If you do have to file, always get a 1A 
qualified survey letter and send it with your application for study. This will 
allow the FAA to know that the vertical margin of error for the elevation 
information you filled in can only be 3 feet. If you file a 2C survey letter 
they still assume a 20 foot vertical margin of error and they add that to your 
structure height. If you don’t supply either letter I think they add 50ft to 
your applied for height. Of other additional note, your state DOT and the local 
airport authority actually have more authority to require marking and lighting 
if they deem it necessary. When you file for an FAA determination, the FAA 
forwards your request to them for review as well. I had a tower application 
actually come back clear from the FAA but the Washington State DOT 
(aeronautical division) require that the tower be marked and lit. Most people 
don’t know that this can happen. 

 

If you want to study it quietly to know if you are possibly in violation, check 
with the folks at www.airspaceusa.com. They can run all the same studies the 
FAA will.

 

Part of any FAA study is not only height clearance but they do study for RFI 
and possible radar blockages. RFI specifically as it might apply to any radio 
navigation systems. Technically if you add any transmitter to a tower that did 
not have those frequencies in the original application, you need to file again 
even if you don’t change the height so that they can do an RFI study again.

 

Thank you,

Brian Webster

www.wirelessmapping.com

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Tim Hardy
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 11:59 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

 

The FAA Notice Criteria tool mentioned by Lewis is also more accurate than 
TOWAIR and we have seen instances where it will clear towers that TOWAIR 
failed.  All we had to do was file the FAA Report data along with the TOWAIR 
data and the application was accepted.





On Apr 14, 2020, at 7:45 PM, Lewis Bergman  wrote:

 

The FAA had a tool to determine if you have to file.

https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/gisTools/gisAction.jsp?action=showNoNoticeRequiredToolForm

 

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 5:47 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

We have a tower next to a commercial building, I think it’s a 45 or 50 ft 
probably Rohn 45G.  It is near a smallish regional airport but pretty much 90 
degrees to the runway.  We need to swap out the 5 GHz backhaul links on this 
tower for licensed.

 

The frequency coordinator is telling us that according to TOWAIR we need to 
file for an ASR, I assume they mean not just with the FCC but with the FAA.

 

By doing so, are we opening Pandora’s box, where they tell us not only is our 
request denied, we have to take down the tower that has been there for 20 
years?  Is this one of those things where we will really regret asking the 
question and should have just kept quiet and suffered with the 5 GHz 
interference?

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

 

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

[Lewis Bergman]

Many surveyors don't have any idea what that 1A should look like so they
are lost. The cost to do a 1A and 2C is the same and their accuracy exceeds
both of those requirements. If you need an example letter I produced and
have had successfully filed and completed the process with I can send you
one.

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 2:20 PM Brian Webster 
wrote:

> Tim is correct. TOWAIR will err on the conservative side so that if
> something is a close call, it will defer that decision to the FAA to do
> their precise study. A couple of key things to note. If you do have to
> file, always get a 1A qualified survey letter and send it with your
> application for study. This will allow the FAA to know that the vertical
> margin of error for the elevation information you filled in can only be 3
> feet. If you file a 2C survey letter they still assume a 20 foot vertical
> margin of error and they add that to your structure height. If you don’t
> supply either letter I think they add 50ft to your applied for height. Of
> other additional note, your state DOT and the local airport authority
> actually have more authority to require marking and lighting if they deem
> it necessary. When you file for an FAA determination, the FAA forwards your
> request to them for review as well. I had a tower application actually come
> back clear from the FAA but the Washington State DOT (aeronautical
> division) require that the tower be marked and lit. Most people don’t know
> that this can happen.
>
>
>
> If you want to study it quietly to know if you are possibly in violation,
> check with the folks at www.airspaceusa.com. They can run all the same
> studies the FAA will.
>
>
>
> Part of any FAA study is not only height clearance but they do study for
> RFI and possible radar blockages. RFI specifically as it might apply to any
> radio navigation systems. Technically if you add any transmitter to a tower
> that did not have those frequencies in the original application, you need
> to file again even if you don’t change the height so that they can do an
> RFI study again.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Brian Webster
>
> www.wirelessmapping.com
>
>
>
> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Tim Hardy
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 15, 2020 11:59 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower
>
>
>
> The FAA Notice Criteria tool mentioned by Lewis is also more accurate than
> TOWAIR and we have seen instances where it will clear towers that TOWAIR
> failed.  All we had to do was file the FAA Report data along with the
> TOWAIR data and the application was accepted.
>
>
>
> On Apr 14, 2020, at 7:45 PM, Lewis Bergman 
> wrote:
>
>
>
> The FAA had a tool to determine if you have to file.
>
>
> https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/gisTools/gisAction.jsp?action=showNoNoticeRequiredToolForm
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 5:47 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:
>
> We have a tower next to a commercial building, I think it’s a 45 or 50 ft
> probably Rohn 45G.  It is near a smallish regional airport but pretty much
> 90 degrees to the runway.  We need to swap out the 5 GHz backhaul links on
> this tower for licensed.
>
>
>
> The frequency coordinator is telling us that according to TOWAIR we need
> to file for an ASR, I assume they mean not just with the FCC but with the
> FAA.
>
>
>
> By doing so, are we opening Pandora’s box, where they tell us not only is
> our request denied, we have to take down the tower that has been there for
> 20 years?  Is this one of those things where we will really regret asking
> the question and should have just kept quiet and suffered with the 5 GHz
> interference?
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>


-- 
Lewis Bergman
325-439-0533 Cell
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

[Brian Webster]

There is a document standard published from the FAA as to the reporting 
standards. I haven’t looked at that in 20 plus years but it does exist.

 

You are right Lewis, for a surveyor who is probably using a survey grade GPS 
that has sub centime accuracy, their measurement is going to exceed either 
standard for quality. It’s all in what is printed on the document you submit.

 

Thank you,

Brian Webster

www.wirelessmapping.com

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Lewis Bergman
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 3:26 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

 

Many surveyors don't have any idea what that 1A should look like so they are 
lost. The cost to do a 1A and 2C is the same and their accuracy exceeds both of 
those requirements. If you need an example letter I produced and have had 
successfully filed and completed the process with I can send you one.

 

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 2:20 PM Brian Webster  wrote:

Tim is correct. TOWAIR will err on the conservative side so that if something 
is a close call, it will defer that decision to the FAA to do their precise 
study. A couple of key things to note. If you do have to file, always get a 1A 
qualified survey letter and send it with your application for study. This will 
allow the FAA to know that the vertical margin of error for the elevation 
information you filled in can only be 3 feet. If you file a 2C survey letter 
they still assume a 20 foot vertical margin of error and they add that to your 
structure height. If you don’t supply either letter I think they add 50ft to 
your applied for height. Of other additional note, your state DOT and the local 
airport authority actually have more authority to require marking and lighting 
if they deem it necessary. When you file for an FAA determination, the FAA 
forwards your request to them for review as well. I had a tower application 
actually come back clear from the FAA but the Washington State DOT 
(aeronautical division) require that the tower be marked and lit. Most people 
don’t know that this can happen. 

 

If you want to study it quietly to know if you are possibly in violation, check 
with the folks at www.airspaceusa.com. They can run all the same studies the 
FAA will.

 

Part of any FAA study is not only height clearance but they do study for RFI 
and possible radar blockages. RFI specifically as it might apply to any radio 
navigation systems. Technically if you add any transmitter to a tower that did 
not have those frequencies in the original application, you need to file again 
even if you don’t change the height so that they can do an RFI study again.

 

Thank you,

Brian Webster

www.wirelessmapping.com

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Tim Hardy
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 11:59 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

 

The FAA Notice Criteria tool mentioned by Lewis is also more accurate than 
TOWAIR and we have seen instances where it will clear towers that TOWAIR 
failed.  All we had to do was file the FAA Report data along with the TOWAIR 
data and the application was accepted.

 

On Apr 14, 2020, at 7:45 PM, Lewis Bergman  wrote:

 

The FAA had a tool to determine if you have to file.

https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/gisTools/gisAction.jsp?action=showNoNoticeRequiredToolForm

 

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 5:47 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

We have a tower next to a commercial building, I think it’s a 45 or 50 ft 
probably Rohn 45G.  It is near a smallish regional airport but pretty much 90 
degrees to the runway.  We need to swap out the 5 GHz backhaul links on this 
tower for licensed.

 

The frequency coordinator is telling us that according to TOWAIR we need to 
file for an ASR, I assume they mean not just with the FCC but with the FAA.

 

By doing so, are we opening Pandora’s box, where they tell us not only is our 
request denied, we have to take down the tower that has been there for 20 
years?  Is this one of those things where we will really regret asking the 
question and should have just kept quiet and suffered with the 5 GHz 
interference?

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

 

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com




 

-- 

Lewis Bergman

325-439-0533 Cell

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

[Ken Hohhof]

As far a height, a surveyor is not really needed.  It’s 5 sections of Rohn with 
5 feet buried in the ground, the laser rangefinder says 45 feet, or we can do a 
tape drop.  You don’t need to be a surveyor to use a tape measure.  I 
understand the lat/lon thing, but I have readings from a Garmin handheld that 
says it is within 10 feet.  Centimeter accuracy should not be necessary when we 
are half a mile away.

 

The annoying thing is there are utility poles along the road between us and the 
airport that are over 40 feet.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Brian Webster
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 3:45 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

 

There is a document standard published from the FAA as to the reporting 
standards. I haven’t looked at that in 20 plus years but it does exist.

 

You are right Lewis, for a surveyor who is probably using a survey grade GPS 
that has sub centime accuracy, their measurement is going to exceed either 
standard for quality. It’s all in what is printed on the document you submit.

 

Thank you,

Brian Webster

www.wirelessmapping.com  

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Lewis Bergman
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 3:26 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

 

Many surveyors don't have any idea what that 1A should look like so they are 
lost. The cost to do a 1A and 2C is the same and their accuracy exceeds both of 
those requirements. If you need an example letter I produced and have had 
successfully filed and completed the process with I can send you one.

 

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 2:20 PM Brian Webster mailto:i...@wirelessmapping.com> > wrote:

Tim is correct. TOWAIR will err on the conservative side so that if something 
is a close call, it will defer that decision to the FAA to do their precise 
study. A couple of key things to note. If you do have to file, always get a 1A 
qualified survey letter and send it with your application for study. This will 
allow the FAA to know that the vertical margin of error for the elevation 
information you filled in can only be 3 feet. If you file a 2C survey letter 
they still assume a 20 foot vertical margin of error and they add that to your 
structure height. If you don’t supply either letter I think they add 50ft to 
your applied for height. Of other additional note, your state DOT and the local 
airport authority actually have more authority to require marking and lighting 
if they deem it necessary. When you file for an FAA determination, the FAA 
forwards your request to them for review as well. I had a tower application 
actually come back clear from the FAA but the Washington State DOT 
(aeronautical division) require that the tower be marked and lit. Most people 
don’t know that this can happen. 

 

If you want to study it quietly to know if you are possibly in violation, check 
with the folks at www.airspaceusa.com  . They can 
run all the same studies the FAA will.

 

Part of any FAA study is not only height clearance but they do study for RFI 
and possible radar blockages. RFI specifically as it might apply to any radio 
navigation systems. Technically if you add any transmitter to a tower that did 
not have those frequencies in the original application, you need to file again 
even if you don’t change the height so that they can do an RFI study again.

 

Thank you,

Brian Webster

www.wirelessmapping.com  

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com  ] On 
Behalf Of Tim Hardy
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 11:59 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

 

The FAA Notice Criteria tool mentioned by Lewis is also more accurate than 
TOWAIR and we have seen instances where it will clear towers that TOWAIR 
failed.  All we had to do was file the FAA Report data along with the TOWAIR 
data and the application was accepted.

 

On Apr 14, 2020, at 7:45 PM, Lewis Bergman mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com> > wrote:

 

The FAA had a tool to determine if you have to file.

https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/gisTools/gisAction.jsp?action=showNoNoticeRequiredToolForm

 

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 5:47 PM Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com> > wrote:

We have a tower next to a commercial building, I think it’s a 45 or 50 ft 
probably Rohn 45G.  It is near a smallish regional airport but pretty much 90 
degrees to the runway.  We need to swap out the 5 GHz backhaul links on this 
tower for licensed.

 

The frequency coordinator is telling us that according to TOWAIR we need to 
file for an ASR, I assume they mean not just with the FCC but with the FAA.

 

By doing so, are we opening Pandora’s box, where they tell us not only is our 
request denied, we have to take down the tower that has been there for 20 
years

Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

[Brian Webster]

It’s not the structure height they add the margin to, it’s the stated ground 
elevation your structure is located on that they are concerned with.

 

Thank you,

Brian Webster

www.wirelessmapping.com

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 5:12 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

 

As far a height, a surveyor is not really needed.  It’s 5 sections of Rohn with 
5 feet buried in the ground, the laser rangefinder says 45 feet, or we can do a 
tape drop.  You don’t need to be a surveyor to use a tape measure.  I 
understand the lat/lon thing, but I have readings from a Garmin handheld that 
says it is within 10 feet.  Centimeter accuracy should not be necessary when we 
are half a mile away.

 

The annoying thing is there are utility poles along the road between us and the 
airport that are over 40 feet.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Brian Webster
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 3:45 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

 

There is a document standard published from the FAA as to the reporting 
standards. I haven’t looked at that in 20 plus years but it does exist.

 

You are right Lewis, for a surveyor who is probably using a survey grade GPS 
that has sub centime accuracy, their measurement is going to exceed either 
standard for quality. It’s all in what is printed on the document you submit.

 

Thank you,

Brian Webster

www.wirelessmapping.com

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Lewis Bergman
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 3:26 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

 

Many surveyors don't have any idea what that 1A should look like so they are 
lost. The cost to do a 1A and 2C is the same and their accuracy exceeds both of 
those requirements. If you need an example letter I produced and have had 
successfully filed and completed the process with I can send you one.

 

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 2:20 PM Brian Webster  wrote:

Tim is correct. TOWAIR will err on the conservative side so that if something 
is a close call, it will defer that decision to the FAA to do their precise 
study. A couple of key things to note. If you do have to file, always get a 1A 
qualified survey letter and send it with your application for study. This will 
allow the FAA to know that the vertical margin of error for the elevation 
information you filled in can only be 3 feet. If you file a 2C survey letter 
they still assume a 20 foot vertical margin of error and they add that to your 
structure height. If you don’t supply either letter I think they add 50ft to 
your applied for height. Of other additional note, your state DOT and the local 
airport authority actually have more authority to require marking and lighting 
if they deem it necessary. When you file for an FAA determination, the FAA 
forwards your request to them for review as well. I had a tower application 
actually come back clear from the FAA but the Washington State DOT 
(aeronautical division) require that the tower be marked and lit. Most people 
don’t know that this can happen. 

 

If you want to study it quietly to know if you are possibly in violation, check 
with the folks at www.airspaceusa.com. They can run all the same studies the 
FAA will.

 

Part of any FAA study is not only height clearance but they do study for RFI 
and possible radar blockages. RFI specifically as it might apply to any radio 
navigation systems. Technically if you add any transmitter to a tower that did 
not have those frequencies in the original application, you need to file again 
even if you don’t change the height so that they can do an RFI study again.

 

Thank you,

Brian Webster

www.wirelessmapping.com

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Tim Hardy
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 11:59 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

 

The FAA Notice Criteria tool mentioned by Lewis is also more accurate than 
TOWAIR and we have seen instances where it will clear towers that TOWAIR 
failed.  All we had to do was file the FAA Report data along with the TOWAIR 
data and the application was accepted.

 

On Apr 14, 2020, at 7:45 PM, Lewis Bergman  wrote:

 

The FAA had a tool to determine if you have to file.

https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/gisTools/gisAction.jsp?action=showNoNoticeRequiredToolForm

 

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 5:47 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

We have a tower next to a commercial building, I think it’s a 45 or 50 ft 
probably Rohn 45G.  It is near a smallish regional airport but pretty much 90 
degrees to the runway.  We need to swap out the 5 GHz backhaul links on this 
tower for licensed.

 

The frequency coordinator is telling us that according to TOWAIR we need to 
file for an ASR, I assume they mean not just with the 

[AFMUG] reflector dishes

[chuck]

I am scrapping my remaining inventory of metal reflector dishes.  

Sales are so low that I would rather have the warehouse space for other things.
Not sure what radio holders we have for them.  You can have them for the cost 
of shipping if you want them.
To order or for inquires email sa...@wbmfg.com

Sorry, it’s not Friday...-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] reflector dishes

[Nate Burke]

You're just going to have to start making them again when the 450 retro 
comes out


On 4/15/2020 5:16 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

I am scrapping my remaining inventory of metal reflector dishes.
Sales are so low that I would rather have the warehouse space for 
other things.
Not sure what radio holders we have for them.  You can have them for 
the cost of shipping if you want them.

To order or for inquires email sa...@wbmfg.com 
Sorry, it’s not Friday...




-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] reflector dishes

[Adam Moffett]

I don't know.. I think the idea with the retro is a quick upgrade to 
existing reflector dishes.


If you're doing a new install the 450b has 25dbi gain in a smaller 
package than the reflector.  Maybe I'm wrong.



On 4/15/2020 6:17 PM, Nate Burke wrote:
You're just going to have to start making them again when the 450 
retro comes out


On 4/15/2020 5:16 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

I am scrapping my remaining inventory of metal reflector dishes.
Sales are so low that I would rather have the warehouse space for 
other things.
Not sure what radio holders we have for them.  You can have them for 
the cost of shipping if you want them.

To order or for inquires email sa...@wbmfg.com 
Sorry, it’s not Friday...





-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] reflector dishes

[Nate Burke]

Comeon.  I want my authentic 2012 house to have authentic looking 2012 
hardware installed on it!   None of this newfangled stuff that doesn't 
belong.  Keep with the period!


On 4/15/2020 5:21 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:


I don't know.. I think the idea with the retro is a quick upgrade 
to existing reflector dishes.


If you're doing a new install the 450b has 25dbi gain in a smaller 
package than the reflector.  Maybe I'm wrong.



On 4/15/2020 6:17 PM, Nate Burke wrote:
You're just going to have to start making them again when the 450 
retro comes out


On 4/15/2020 5:16 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

I am scrapping my remaining inventory of metal reflector dishes.
Sales are so low that I would rather have the warehouse space for 
other things.
Not sure what radio holders we have for them.  You can have them for 
the cost of shipping if you want them.

To order or for inquires email sa...@wbmfg.com 
Sorry, it’s not Friday...










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Re: [AFMUG] reflector dishes

[chuck]

Well then, I am sure I can find a Tranzeo around here somewhere.

From: Nate Burke 
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 4:39 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] reflector dishes

Comeon.  I want my authentic 2012 house to have authentic looking 2012 hardware 
installed on it!   None of this newfangled stuff that doesn't belong.  Keep 
with the period!


On 4/15/2020 5:21 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:

  I don't know.. I think the idea with the retro is a quick upgrade to 
existing reflector dishes.

  If you're doing a new install the 450b has 25dbi gain in a smaller package 
than the reflector.  Maybe I'm wrong.




  On 4/15/2020 6:17 PM, Nate Burke wrote:

You're just going to have to start making them again when the 450 retro 
comes out


On 4/15/2020 5:16 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

  I am scrapping my remaining inventory of metal reflector dishes.  

  Sales are so low that I would rather have the warehouse space for other 
things.
  Not sure what radio holders we have for them.  You can have them for the 
cost of shipping if you want them.
  To order or for inquires email sa...@wbmfg.com

  Sorry, it’s not Friday...

   



 

   






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Re: [AFMUG] reflector dishes

[Ken Hohhof]

450b is more like 23 dBi, but higher xmt power for what that's worth.  Retro
would be 450b electronics though, so same xmt power.

 

450b has that weird interaction with roofs that Cambium wrote an app note
about.  I still occasionally want to use an old style SM with reflector, but
I only have a handful left.  It's like Seinfeld and the sponge-worthy
episode.  I found one today at the shop that I had set aside because when we
retrieved it from a customer's house, he had sprayed his house red and
didn't mask off the SM.  But now I'm going to figure out how to get the
paint off.

 

Cambium has made some improvements to the mechanical design of the 450b, I
still have a devil of a time getting the radomes on, and it's still a pain
in the but to swap one from right hand mount to left hand after it's all
assembled.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 5:21 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] reflector dishes

 

I don't know.. I think the idea with the retro is a quick upgrade to
existing reflector dishes.

If you're doing a new install the 450b has 25dbi gain in a smaller package
than the reflector.  Maybe I'm wrong.

 

On 4/15/2020 6:17 PM, Nate Burke wrote:

You're just going to have to start making them again when the 450 retro
comes out

On 4/15/2020 5:16 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com   wrote:

I am scrapping my remaining inventory of metal reflector dishes.  

 

Sales are so low that I would rather have the warehouse space for other
things.

Not sure what radio holders we have for them.  You can have them for the
cost of shipping if you want them.

To order or for inquires email sa...@wbmfg.com  

 

Sorry, it's not Friday...










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Re: [AFMUG] Edge Router Options

[Mark Frost]

That’s not bad at all.

Has the MPLS stack on Aristas advanced anymore recently?


From: Peter Kranz 
Sent: Thursday, 16 April 2020 02:12
To: Mark Frost ; 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: RE: [AFMUG] Edge Router Options

~12k for a 7280R2 w/ flexroute and expanded memory.

Peter Kranz
www.UnwiredLtd.com
Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
Mobile: 510-207-
pkr...@unwiredltd.com

From: Mark Frost mailto:mfr...@onq.com.au>>
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2020 5:47 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Cc: Peter Kranz mailto:pkr...@unwiredltd.com>>
Subject: RE: [AFMUG] Edge Router Options

Hi Peter,

What sort of numbers are you looking at for the 7280SR with flexroute?

Cheers,
Mark

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Peter Kranz via AF
Sent: Wednesday, 15 April 2020 08:19
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Cc: Peter Kranz mailto:pkr...@unwiredltd.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Edge Router Options

You may want to consider Arista w/ flexroute for full routes. The 7280SR 
platform is 48 10G ports + 6 100G ports.

Peter Kranz
www.UnwiredLtd.com
Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
Mobile: 510-207-
pkr...@unwiredltd.com

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Gilbert Gutierrez
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2020 11:14 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Edge Router Options

I am looking to move away from Microtik on my edge. I have two CCR1072-1G-8s+ 
routers and have had stability problems with random reboots over the last year 
of using them. I am thinking of the Juniper MX80 platform but do not know 
anything about their licensing (looking at used ones that I can get for about 
$5k). I also do not know what other options are out there.

I am needing 10G ports
Support for OSPF
Support for BGP full routes from multiple carriers
MPLS would be nice
Support VLANs
Support for various MTU sizes

Thank you,
Gilbert
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Re: [AFMUG] reflector dishes

[chuck]

That reminds me of a customer, can’t remember if it was stinger or dish, that 
wanted to know if it was ok to paint it black.  It actually does with some 
paints.  He was doing an install on Bette Midler’s house and everything was 
black.  If I remember the story correctly, all people working on the house had 
to get bussed to the site in a bus with blacked out windows.  Aincha never 
heard of GPS... (pre smart phone days.  

From: Ken Hohhof 
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 5:02 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] reflector dishes

450b is more like 23 dBi, but higher xmt power for what that’s worth.  Retro 
would be 450b electronics though, so same xmt power.

 

450b has that weird interaction with roofs that Cambium wrote an app note 
about.  I still occasionally want to use an old style SM with reflector, but I 
only have a handful left.  It’s like Seinfeld and the sponge-worthy episode.  I 
found one today at the shop that I had set aside because when we retrieved it 
from a customer’s house, he had sprayed his house red and didn’t mask off the 
SM.  But now I’m going to figure out how to get the paint off.

 

Cambium has made some improvements to the mechanical design of the 450b, I 
still have a devil of a time getting the radomes on, and it’s still a pain in 
the but to swap one from right hand mount to left hand after it’s all assembled.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 5:21 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] reflector dishes

 

I don't know.. I think the idea with the retro is a quick upgrade to 
existing reflector dishes.

If you're doing a new install the 450b has 25dbi gain in a smaller package than 
the reflector.  Maybe I'm wrong.

 

On 4/15/2020 6:17 PM, Nate Burke wrote:

  You're just going to have to start making them again when the 450 retro comes 
out

  On 4/15/2020 5:16 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

I am scrapping my remaining inventory of metal reflector dishes.  

 

Sales are so low that I would rather have the warehouse space for other 
things.

Not sure what radio holders we have for them.  You can have them for the 
cost of shipping if you want them.

To order or for inquires email sa...@wbmfg.com

 

Sorry, it’s not Friday...













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Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

[Ken Hohhof]

Oh, I see (said the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw).

 

They don’t trust Google Earth or topo maps for ground elevation?

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Brian Webster
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 4:21 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

 

It’s not the structure height they add the margin to, it’s the stated ground 
elevation your structure is located on that they are concerned with.

 

Thank you,

Brian Webster

www.wirelessmapping.com  

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 5:12 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

 

As far a height, a surveyor is not really needed.  It’s 5 sections of Rohn with 
5 feet buried in the ground, the laser rangefinder says 45 feet, or we can do a 
tape drop.  You don’t need to be a surveyor to use a tape measure.  I 
understand the lat/lon thing, but I have readings from a Garmin handheld that 
says it is within 10 feet.  Centimeter accuracy should not be necessary when we 
are half a mile away.

 

The annoying thing is there are utility poles along the road between us and the 
airport that are over 40 feet.

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Brian Webster
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 3:45 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

 

There is a document standard published from the FAA as to the reporting 
standards. I haven’t looked at that in 20 plus years but it does exist.

 

You are right Lewis, for a surveyor who is probably using a survey grade GPS 
that has sub centime accuracy, their measurement is going to exceed either 
standard for quality. It’s all in what is printed on the document you submit.

 

Thank you,

Brian Webster

www.wirelessmapping.com  

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Lewis Bergman
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 3:26 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

 

Many surveyors don't have any idea what that 1A should look like so they are 
lost. The cost to do a 1A and 2C is the same and their accuracy exceeds both of 
those requirements. If you need an example letter I produced and have had 
successfully filed and completed the process with I can send you one.

 

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 2:20 PM Brian Webster mailto:i...@wirelessmapping.com> > wrote:

Tim is correct. TOWAIR will err on the conservative side so that if something 
is a close call, it will defer that decision to the FAA to do their precise 
study. A couple of key things to note. If you do have to file, always get a 1A 
qualified survey letter and send it with your application for study. This will 
allow the FAA to know that the vertical margin of error for the elevation 
information you filled in can only be 3 feet. If you file a 2C survey letter 
they still assume a 20 foot vertical margin of error and they add that to your 
structure height. If you don’t supply either letter I think they add 50ft to 
your applied for height. Of other additional note, your state DOT and the local 
airport authority actually have more authority to require marking and lighting 
if they deem it necessary. When you file for an FAA determination, the FAA 
forwards your request to them for review as well. I had a tower application 
actually come back clear from the FAA but the Washington State DOT 
(aeronautical division) require that the tower be marked and lit. Most people 
don’t know that this can happen. 

 

If you want to study it quietly to know if you are possibly in violation, check 
with the folks at www.airspaceusa.com  . They can 
run all the same studies the FAA will.

 

Part of any FAA study is not only height clearance but they do study for RFI 
and possible radar blockages. RFI specifically as it might apply to any radio 
navigation systems. Technically if you add any transmitter to a tower that did 
not have those frequencies in the original application, you need to file again 
even if you don’t change the height so that they can do an RFI study again.

 

Thank you,

Brian Webster

www.wirelessmapping.com  

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com  ] On 
Behalf Of Tim Hardy
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 11:59 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

 

The FAA Notice Criteria tool mentioned by Lewis is also more accurate than 
TOWAIR and we have seen instances where it will clear towers that TOWAIR 
failed.  All we had to do was file the FAA Report data along with the TOWAIR 
data and the application was accepted.

 

On Apr 14, 2020, at 7:45 PM, Lewis Bergman mailto:lewis.berg...@gma

Re: [AFMUG] And there we have it....

[Jason McKemie]

So they can do that and then just pick up and continue on as if nothing
ever happened?

This is broken.

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 1:51 PM Brian Webster 
wrote:

> Bingo. Remembering they have merged/acquired a lot of companies and union
> contracts may have been a big part of that. Pension funding and healthcare
> costs could be a big burden and vary from market to market causing
> discontent among workers too.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Brian Webster
>
> www.wirelessmapping.com
>
>
>
> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Robert
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 15, 2020 1:38 PM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] And there we have it
>
>
>
> Void any union contracts that may have been signed
>
> On 4/15/20 9:35 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
>
> “drive operation efficiencies” is corporate-speak for layoffs, right?
>
>
>
> But yeah, efficiency and growth doesn’t sound like a revolutionary new
> approach just discovered recently.
>
>
>
> Maybe they mean “all we could do until now was figure out each month how
> to pay the interest on our crushing debt, and now we might actually have
> some money to deploy something modern like fiber or wireless that customers
> actually want”.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF   *On Behalf
> Of *Josh Luthman
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 15, 2020 11:11 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group  
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] And there we have it
>
>
>
> "With this agreement with our bondholders, we can now focus on executing
> our strategy to drive operational efficiencies and position our business
> for long-term growth."
>
>
>
> The hell were you doing before, Bernie?
>
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:23 AM  wrote:
>
> They didn’t mention Utah and it is a reorg not a liquidation...
>
>
>
> *From:* Mark Radabaugh
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 15, 2020 6:08 AM
>
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] And there we have it
>
>
>
>
> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/frontier-communications-files-bankruptcy-protection-030635273.html
>
>
>
> Dump your debts and your obligations, get more money.   Round and round it
> goes.
>
>
>
> Mark
> --
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
>
>
> --
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> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Mimosa radios

[Jaime Solorza]

I saw this used on Hyperlink 1,2 and 5 watt amps using Mikrotik routers on
Lower Comanche many years ago... Stupid ..14, I remember 14 2.4GHz links on
same small roof top.  White Horse Communicationsbunch of clowns.

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020, 10:40 AM Jay Weekley 
wrote:

> Well, that's odd.
>
> Jaime Solorza wrote:
> > Completely like a baked potato.
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 15, 2020, 8:59 AM Jay Weekley  > > wrote:
> >
> > The seal on the B5c has been prone to leak.  Was the whole radio
> > wrapped
> > or just the outer edge?
> >
> > Jaime Solorza wrote:
> > > Saw several Mimosa radios wrapped in foil on a rooftop where
> > there are
> > > Ubiquiti and Cambium radios as well.
> > > Are these Mimosa radios  that susceptible to interference
> > through the
> > > casing?
> > > Signed,
> > > Befuddled in El Paso
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > *Jay Weekley*
> > *Cyber Broadband
> > *
> >
> > --
> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> > https://www.avg.com
> >
> >
> > --
> > AF mailing list
> > AF@af.afmug.com 
> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> *Jay Weekley*
> *Cyber Broadband
> *
>
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[AFMUG] South Dakota

[Jaime Solorza]

It's getting bad in Sioux Falls... doesn't Matt Larsen have service in that
area?
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Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

[Brian Webster]

Not within those margins of error, no.

 

Thank you,

Brian Webster

214 Eggleston Hill Rd.

Cooperstown, NY 13326

(607) 643-4055 Office

(607) 435-3988 Mobile

www.wirelessmapping.com

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 7:39 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

 

Oh, I see (said the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw).

 

They don’t trust Google Earth or topo maps for ground elevation?

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Brian Webster
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 4:21 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

 

It’s not the structure height they add the margin to, it’s the stated ground 
elevation your structure is located on that they are concerned with.

 

Thank you,

Brian Webster

www.wirelessmapping.com

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 5:12 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

 

As far a height, a surveyor is not really needed.  It’s 5 sections of Rohn with 
5 feet buried in the ground, the laser rangefinder says 45 feet, or we can do a 
tape drop.  You don’t need to be a surveyor to use a tape measure.  I 
understand the lat/lon thing, but I have readings from a Garmin handheld that 
says it is within 10 feet.  Centimeter accuracy should not be necessary when we 
are half a mile away.

 

The annoying thing is there are utility poles along the road between us and the 
airport that are over 40 feet.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Brian Webster
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 3:45 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

 

There is a document standard published from the FAA as to the reporting 
standards. I haven’t looked at that in 20 plus years but it does exist.

 

You are right Lewis, for a surveyor who is probably using a survey grade GPS 
that has sub centime accuracy, their measurement is going to exceed either 
standard for quality. It’s all in what is printed on the document you submit.

 

Thank you,

Brian Webster

www.wirelessmapping.com

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Lewis Bergman
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 3:26 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

 

Many surveyors don't have any idea what that 1A should look like so they are 
lost. The cost to do a 1A and 2C is the same and their accuracy exceeds both of 
those requirements. If you need an example letter I produced and have had 
successfully filed and completed the process with I can send you one.

 

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 2:20 PM Brian Webster  wrote:

Tim is correct. TOWAIR will err on the conservative side so that if something 
is a close call, it will defer that decision to the FAA to do their precise 
study. A couple of key things to note. If you do have to file, always get a 1A 
qualified survey letter and send it with your application for study. This will 
allow the FAA to know that the vertical margin of error for the elevation 
information you filled in can only be 3 feet. If you file a 2C survey letter 
they still assume a 20 foot vertical margin of error and they add that to your 
structure height. If you don’t supply either letter I think they add 50ft to 
your applied for height. Of other additional note, your state DOT and the local 
airport authority actually have more authority to require marking and lighting 
if they deem it necessary. When you file for an FAA determination, the FAA 
forwards your request to them for review as well. I had a tower application 
actually come back clear from the FAA but the Washington State DOT 
(aeronautical division) require that the tower be marked and lit. Most people 
don’t know that this can happen. 

 

If you want to study it quietly to know if you are possibly in violation, check 
with the folks at www.airspaceusa.com. They can run all the same studies the 
FAA will.

 

Part of any FAA study is not only height clearance but they do study for RFI 
and possible radar blockages. RFI specifically as it might apply to any radio 
navigation systems. Technically if you add any transmitter to a tower that did 
not have those frequencies in the original application, you need to file again 
even if you don’t change the height so that they can do an RFI study again.

 

Thank you,

Brian Webster

www.wirelessmapping.com

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Tim Hardy
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 11:59 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

 

The FAA Notice Criteria tool mentioned by Lewis is also more accurate than 
TOWAIR and we have seen instances where it will clear towers that TOWAIR 
failed.  All we had to do was file the FAA Report dat

Re: [AFMUG] South Dakota

[Steve Jones]

South Dakota
Confirmed
988
Recovered
261
Deaths
6

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 8:08 PM Jaime Solorza 
wrote:

> It's getting bad in Sioux Falls... doesn't Matt Larsen have service in
> that area?
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] South Dakota

[Bill Prince]

  
  
Death rate in SD does not look horrible compared to many other
  states, nor does their case count. This information is out of sync
  with what you pulled (lower total for the state). However, 88% of
  all the cases in SD are in Sioux Falls.

bp



On 4/15/2020 6:34 PM, Steve Jones
  wrote:


  
  

  South
  Dakota


  

  
Confirmed
988
  
  
Recovered
261
  
  
Deaths
6
  

  

  
  
  
On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 8:08
  PM Jaime Solorza 
  wrote:


  It's getting bad in Sioux Falls... doesn't
Matt Larsen have service in that area?
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Re: [AFMUG] South Dakota

[Ken Hohhof]

There’s a meat packing plant in Colorado closed also due to Covid 19.

 

Buy local meat, or learn to like “plant meat”?

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 9:38 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] South Dakota

 

Yeah in the Smithfield plant mostly, about as shocking as a nursing home

 

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020, 9:22 PM Bill Prince mailto:part15...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Death rate in SD does not look horrible compared to many other states, nor does 
their case count. This information is out of sync with what you pulled (lower 
total for the state). However, 88% of all the cases in SD are in Sioux Falls.



bp

 

On 4/15/2020 6:34 PM, Steve Jones wrote:

South Dakota


Confirmed

988

Recovered

261

Deaths

6

 

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 8:08 PM Jaime Solorza mailto:losguyswirel...@gmail.com> > wrote:

It's getting bad in Sioux Falls... doesn't Matt Larsen have service in that 
area?

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Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

[Ken Hohhof]

This is Illinois, where a 50 ft elevation rise is called a mountain.

 

My Garmin handheld if you give it several minutes says the accuracy is with 10 
feet at this location (the building blocks half the sky), but the reading is 
exactly the same as Google Earth.  That leads me to believe they are both more 
accurate than that.

 

Also I’m not sure how the GPS measures altitude.  I thought it was barometric 
pressure which would not be that accurate.  But again, it is within a foot of 
what Google Earth says.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Brian Webster
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 8:10 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

 

Not within those margins of error, no.

 

Thank you,

Brian Webster

214 Eggleston Hill Rd.

Cooperstown, NY 13326

(607) 643-4055 Office

(607) 435-3988 Mobile

www.wirelessmapping.com  

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 7:39 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

 

Oh, I see (said the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw).

 

They don’t trust Google Earth or topo maps for ground elevation?

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Brian Webster
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 4:21 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

 

It’s not the structure height they add the margin to, it’s the stated ground 
elevation your structure is located on that they are concerned with.

 

Thank you,

Brian Webster

www.wirelessmapping.com  

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 5:12 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

 

As far a height, a surveyor is not really needed.  It’s 5 sections of Rohn with 
5 feet buried in the ground, the laser rangefinder says 45 feet, or we can do a 
tape drop.  You don’t need to be a surveyor to use a tape measure.  I 
understand the lat/lon thing, but I have readings from a Garmin handheld that 
says it is within 10 feet.  Centimeter accuracy should not be necessary when we 
are half a mile away.

 

The annoying thing is there are utility poles along the road between us and the 
airport that are over 40 feet.

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Brian Webster
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 3:45 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

 

There is a document standard published from the FAA as to the reporting 
standards. I haven’t looked at that in 20 plus years but it does exist.

 

You are right Lewis, for a surveyor who is probably using a survey grade GPS 
that has sub centime accuracy, their measurement is going to exceed either 
standard for quality. It’s all in what is printed on the document you submit.

 

Thank you,

Brian Webster

www.wirelessmapping.com  

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Lewis Bergman
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 3:26 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

 

Many surveyors don't have any idea what that 1A should look like so they are 
lost. The cost to do a 1A and 2C is the same and their accuracy exceeds both of 
those requirements. If you need an example letter I produced and have had 
successfully filed and completed the process with I can send you one.

 

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 2:20 PM Brian Webster mailto:i...@wirelessmapping.com> > wrote:

Tim is correct. TOWAIR will err on the conservative side so that if something 
is a close call, it will defer that decision to the FAA to do their precise 
study. A couple of key things to note. If you do have to file, always get a 1A 
qualified survey letter and send it with your application for study. This will 
allow the FAA to know that the vertical margin of error for the elevation 
information you filled in can only be 3 feet. If you file a 2C survey letter 
they still assume a 20 foot vertical margin of error and they add that to your 
structure height. If you don’t supply either letter I think they add 50ft to 
your applied for height. Of other additional note, your state DOT and the local 
airport authority actually have more authority to require marking and lighting 
if they deem it necessary. When you file for an FAA determination, the FAA 
forwards your request to them for review as well. I had a tower application 
actually come back clear from the FAA but the Washington State DOT 
(aeronautical division) require that the tower be marked and lit. Most people 
don’t know that this can happen. 

 

If you want to study it quietly to know if you are possibly in violation, ch

Re: [AFMUG] And there we have it....

[Seth Mattinen]

On 4/15/20 5:21 PM, Jason McKemie wrote:
So they can do that and then just pick up and continue on as if nothing 
ever happened?



Contracts are only held against the little guys.

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Re: [AFMUG] South Dakota

[Steve Jones]

Im guessing this plant is lax on e-verify paperwork, or has many visa
workers. They tend to live in communal housing. so 300 plus out of the 2700
or so employees would be expected. When one plant accounts for a third of
the states infected it looks pretty good still for the state. You have to
question, assuming the probability given industry history, how many people
avoided seeking medical care, or taking time off because they were afraid
of ICE involvement.

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 9:43 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

> There’s a meat packing plant in Colorado closed also due to Covid 19.
>
>
>
> Buy local meat, or learn to like “plant meat”?
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 15, 2020 9:38 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] South Dakota
>
>
>
> Yeah in the Smithfield plant mostly, about as shocking as a nursing home
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020, 9:22 PM Bill Prince  wrote:
>
> Death rate in SD does not look horrible compared to many other states, nor
> does their case count. This information is out of sync with what you pulled
> (lower total for the state). However, 88% of all the cases in SD are in
> Sioux Falls.
>
> bp
>
> 
>
>
>
> On 4/15/2020 6:34 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
>
> South Dakota
>
> Confirmed
>
> 988
>
> Recovered
>
> 261
>
> Deaths
>
> 6
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 8:08 PM Jaime Solorza 
> wrote:
>
> It's getting bad in Sioux Falls... doesn't Matt Larsen have service in
> that area?
>
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>
>
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Re: [AFMUG] South Dakota

[Colin Stanners]

I request to put the OT: header on anything that is not quite directly
WISP-related... As much as I enjoy the good coronavirus and other
conversations that the smart and reasonable people on this list have, I'd
like to keep the non-WISP conversations filterable. Thank you.

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020, 8:08 PM Jaime Solorza 
wrote:

> It's getting bad in Sioux Falls... doesn't Matt Larsen have service in
> that area?
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Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing tower

[Bill Prince]

  
  
GPS figures out elevation the same way as it figures out lat/lon.
  3D fix. The problem is that the angles are so small for the
  elevation part of it, that is the least accurate reading.


bp



On 4/15/2020 7:49 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:


  
  
  
  
This
is Illinois, where a 50 ft elevation rise is called a
mountain.
 
My
Garmin handheld if you give it several minutes says the
accuracy is with 10 feet at this location (the building
blocks half the sky), but the reading is exactly the same as
Google Earth.  That leads me to believe they are both more
accurate than that.
 
Also
I’m not sure how the GPS measures altitude.  I thought it
was barometric pressure which would not be that accurate. 
But again, it is within a foot of what Google Earth says.
 
 

  
From: AF
 On Behalf Of Brian
Webster
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 8:10 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing
tower
  

 
Not
within those margins of error, no.
 

  Thank
  you,
  Brian
  Webster
  214
  Eggleston Hill Rd.
  Cooperstown,
  NY 13326
  (607)
  643-4055 Office
  (607)
  435-3988 Mobile
  www.wirelessmapping.com

 

  
From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com]
On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 7:39 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing
tower
  

 
Oh,
I see (said the blind man as he picked up his hammer and
saw).
 
They
don’t trust Google Earth or topo maps for ground elevation?
 
 

  
From: AF

On Behalf Of Brian Webster
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 4:21 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing
tower
  

 
It’s
not the structure height they add the margin to, it’s the
stated ground elevation your structure is located on that
they are concerned with.
 

  Thank
  you,
  Brian
  Webster
  www.wirelessmapping.com

 

  
From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com]
On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 5:12 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing
tower
  

 
As
far a height, a surveyor is not really needed.  It’s 5
sections of Rohn with 5 feet buried in the ground, the laser
rangefinder says 45 feet, or we can do a tape drop.  You
don’t need to be a surveyor to use a tape measure.  I
understand the lat/lon thing, but I have readings from a
Garmin handheld that says it is within 10 feet.  Centimeter
accuracy should not be necessary when we are half a mile
away.
 
The
annoying thing is there are utility poles along the road
between us and the airport that are over 40 feet.
 

  
From: AF

On Behalf Of Brian Webster
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 3:45 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] TOWAIR and ASR for existing
tower
  

 
There
is a document standard published from the FAA as to the
reporting standards. I haven’t looked at that in 20 plus
years but it does exist.
 
You
are right Lewis, for a surveyor who is probably using a
survey grade GPS that has sub centime accuracy, their
measurement is going to exceed either standard for quality.
It’s all in what is printed on the document you submit.
 
Thank
you,
Brian
Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com
 
From