One thing to note on that criteria…if one were to list the 3 biggest Python web frameworks, they aren’t produced by a company. In fact, there was once this big Python open source web framework that was managed by a company with big money behind them...
—Paul > On Dec 11, 2014, at 2:41 PM, pyramidX <[email protected]> wrote: > > That makes sense, thanks. > > With many big open-source projects there's a company backing it (e.g. Ansible > there's a company providing support and services for the open-source > product), and though there's no guarantee that it'll stick around, knowing > there's a commercial incentive for a company to continue to maintain the > project actively does bring a level of comfort. > > Are there companies offering professional support or consulting for Pyramid? > > On the project site there's 'Who's using Pylons Project software', didn't > realize large public-facing sites like digg and cars.com are using Pyramid. > Is there a more thorough list of these sites available? Or perhaps you might > personally know of some other large public-facing websites that are currently > using Pyramid extensively? > > No worries about Pyramid's future, but it never hurts to get more knowledge. > > On Thursday, December 11, 2014 2:28:25 PM UTC+1, Chris Rossi wrote: > Ok, less snarky version--one doesn't know the future, but the community > around Pyramid is cohesive enough that it should endure for some time to > come. Enough businesses are using it in their core infrastructure that it's > unlikely the community would just shrivel up overnight. The reason there are > so few features slated for future release is because Pyramid, itself, is > starting to feel finished. It does what it does really well and we don't > feel that we're wanting for features. The bulk of new development is around > layers on top or add-ons for Pyramid--projects that contribute to the Pyramid > ecosystem, but not necessarily to Pyramid core. Because, really, core > already has most of the features anyone wants at that layer. > > Chris > > On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 6:34 AM, Steve Piercy <[email protected] > <javascript:>> wrote: > Pyramid is "as is". No warranty. > https://github.com/Pylons/pyramid/blob/master/LICENSE.txt > <https://github.com/Pylons/pyramid/blob/master/LICENSE.txt> > > If you want people to maintain something for you indefinitely, then you need > to make an agreement or contract for services. Sorry to be snarky, but come > on! Pyramid is a free and open source project, and expectations need to > align with that reality. > > --steve > > > On 12/11/14 at 3:12 AM, [email protected] <javascript:> (pyramidX) > pronounced: > > I love Pyramid and my only thought is will it be maintained indefinitely? Say > if the few main committers move on is there some sponsor who will step in? (I > have similar thoughts about SQL Alchemy which my Pyramid app uses heavily.) > My other thought is whether there is a roadmap for the future of Pyramid. > It's good to know the project has a plan of where it wants to take things. I > see https://github.com/Pylons/pyramid/blob/master/TODO.txt#L116 > <https://github.com/Pylons/pyramid/blob/master/TODO.txt#L116> but there's > only one new feature listed for each release like 1.6, 1.7, etc. > > On Wednesday, December 10, 2014 7:19:26 AM UTC+1, lostdorje wrote: > > +1 to all the responses regarding there being Python and Ruby developers vs > there being Django and Rails developers (and even Wordpress > developers...*cough*...vs PHP developers). I got my degree in Computer > Science, so I just consider myself a developer, period. The point of these > narrowly scoped dev types is well taken. I wouldn't want to hire anyone whose > skill set is so tightly tied to a framework. I'd guess in most cases such > developers wouldn't 'scale' well in a growing startup. > > And +1 to Torsten's comment about Python, rather than just Pyramid itself, > having a user base with strong programming roots beyond just web development > within a framework. > > And +1 to Jonathan. Totally agree with you on: Lower-level frameworks like > Flask, Pyramid, etc tend to attract developers more interested-in or > experienced-with the language, the user pool is smaller and self-selecting. > This has both advantages and disadvantages, but in terms of getting the best > talent on board, it seems the best talent would definitely be more interested > in/experienced with the 'lower level' frameworks. > > Thanks for all the insightful responses, it helps me confirm I still believe > Pyramid is the right choice for the startup we are building out. Regardless > of technology stack, we will only being hiring *real* developers and not devs > who can hide behind a framework as a crutch, obfuscating the depth of their > real technical knowledge. > > > On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 12:44 AM, Jonathan Vanasco <[email protected] <> > <javascript:>> wrote: > > I'll preface this by saying that I'm biased towards Pyramid, and when I > have to program - I prefer it. I begrudgingly program though - I'm usually > on the business/product/management side. But in the past 3 years: I've > been working extensively with Pyramid on a personal project, was CTO of a > large media company that had a re-deploy onto Rails in-progress (a mistake > that was scrapped), and was the Product/Tech advisor to medium sided media > company that was on Django. > > If you're doing a "Startup" that is in any way unique or looking to scale, > I would only consider doing it in Pyramid. If it's going to be essentially > a lot of basic functionality, something off-the-shelf (blog, e-commerce) and > nothing really proprietary or large scale, then Django/Rails would be > perfect. Aside from the language difference, Rails and Django are basically > the same (there are some differences in approach, but both are very high > level frameworks). If you are a building a one-off project, an advertising > campaign, are a dev-shop working for a client's time-limited event, etc -- > then Django/Rails are what you want, and Pyramid would be overkill. > > Pyramid / Pylons is a very low-level framework. You'll spend more time and > energy getting some basic things done at the outset, but you won't ever be > constrained by the Framework or Data Model, and your velocity will improve > or stay consistent as you need to pivot or scale. You can make large > changes with little work, and easily introduce "quick fixes" if needed. > > Django is very high level. It's so high-level, that most people I know > consider it more like editing configuration files than writing Python. > You'll be off to a quick start in basic functionality, but quickly feel > constrained by a fairly rigid API and the need to do things the Django way. > Your velocity will plummet as the project moves onwards. It can be > exceedingly hard to implement a "quick fix", because the framework is so > tightly integrated. Adding new functionality and addressing bottlenecks can > be aggravating. > > Rails is basically the same as Django, except it's in Ruby. > In terms of hiring... from firsthand experience it is incredibly hard to > find *good* Django/Ruby developers. This has less to do with the concept of > a "Developers Market" that others noted (which is true) than it has to do > with the overall talent pool. While there are a lot of really brilliant > Python/Ruby developers in the Django/Ruby community, I've found that the > majority the community are Django/Ruby developers -- NOT Python/Ruby > developers. These people tend to be pretty unfamiliar with the core > language and just know the framework -- usually through a HowTo book or some > sort of bootstrap class. Bad developers flock to the buzzwords: to Java, > then to PHP, and then to Django/Rails. The result is that the > signal-to-noise ratio in the Django/Rails applicant pool is ridiculously low > -- and you can spend months trying to source candidates worth bringing in to > an interview -- only to end up paying a premium for bad developers who > simply know the stack. I've had Rails/Django devs with 2 years professional > experience demand higher compensation than developers with 10 years of work > experience who were experts in a field. It's a ridiculous premium. > > Lower-level frameworks like Flask, Pyramid, etc tend to attract developers > more interested-in or experienced-with the language, the user pool is > smaller and self-selecting. This is simply a correlated effect to the > popularity of the frameworks. So you might identify 100 candidates for a > Rails/Django position, but only want to interview 2 after seeing their > resumes... meanwhile you might identity 5 candidates for a Pyramid/Flask > position and probably want to bring all of them in. There are definitely a > lot more "good" Rails/Django developers than Pyramid/Flask developers -- but > you'll have to sort through hundreds of applications or profiles to find > them. > > If you do go the Django/Rails route, I would suggest doing all your > recruiting by targeting people through contributions to open source > projects. All the best applicants I've met were either active contributors > to larger projects, or had a few small (and well written) libraries of their > own -- and I could quickly judge if they actually knew Python/Ruby or not. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "pylons-discuss" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] <> <javascript:>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] <> > <javascript:>. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss > <http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > > > > > ------------------------ > Steve Piercy, Soquel, CA > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "pylons-discuss" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] <javascript:>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <javascript:>. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss > <http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "pylons-discuss" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss > <http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pylons-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
