Are you implying that Zope wasn’t a success? :P > On Dec 11, 2014, at 14:44, Paul Everitt <[email protected]> wrote: > > > One thing to note on that criteria…if one were to list the 3 biggest Python > web frameworks, they aren’t produced by a company. In fact, there was once > this big Python open source web framework that was managed by a company with > big money behind them... > > —Paul > >> On Dec 11, 2014, at 2:41 PM, pyramidX <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> That makes sense, thanks. >> >> With many big open-source projects there's a company backing it (e.g. >> Ansible there's a company providing support and services for the open-source >> product), and though there's no guarantee that it'll stick around, knowing >> there's a commercial incentive for a company to continue to maintain the >> project actively does bring a level of comfort. >> >> Are there companies offering professional support or consulting for Pyramid? >> >> On the project site there's 'Who's using Pylons Project software', didn't >> realize large public-facing sites like digg and cars.com are using Pyramid. >> Is there a more thorough list of these sites available? Or perhaps you might >> personally know of some other large public-facing websites that are >> currently using Pyramid extensively? >> >> No worries about Pyramid's future, but it never hurts to get more knowledge. >> >> On Thursday, December 11, 2014 2:28:25 PM UTC+1, Chris Rossi wrote: >> Ok, less snarky version--one doesn't know the future, but the community >> around Pyramid is cohesive enough that it should endure for some time to >> come. Enough businesses are using it in their core infrastructure that it's >> unlikely the community would just shrivel up overnight. The reason there >> are so few features slated for future release is because Pyramid, itself, is >> starting to feel finished. It does what it does really well and we don't >> feel that we're wanting for features. The bulk of new development is around >> layers on top or add-ons for Pyramid--projects that contribute to the >> Pyramid ecosystem, but not necessarily to Pyramid core. Because, really, >> core already has most of the features anyone wants at that layer. >> >> Chris >> >> On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 6:34 AM, Steve Piercy <[email protected]> wrote: >> Pyramid is "as is". No warranty. >> https://github.com/Pylons/pyramid/blob/master/LICENSE.txt >> >> If you want people to maintain something for you indefinitely, then you need >> to make an agreement or contract for services. Sorry to be snarky, but come >> on! Pyramid is a free and open source project, and expectations need to >> align with that reality. >> >> --steve >> >> >> On 12/11/14 at 3:12 AM, [email protected] (pyramidX) pronounced: >> >> I love Pyramid and my only thought is will it be maintained indefinitely? >> Say if the few main committers move on is there some sponsor who will step >> in? (I have similar thoughts about SQL Alchemy which my Pyramid app uses >> heavily.) My other thought is whether there is a roadmap for the future of >> Pyramid. It's good to know the project has a plan of where it wants to take >> things. I see https://github.com/Pylons/pyramid/blob/master/TODO.txt#L116 >> but there's only one new feature listed for each release like 1.6, 1.7, etc. >> >> On Wednesday, December 10, 2014 7:19:26 AM UTC+1, lostdorje wrote: >> >> +1 to all the responses regarding there being Python and Ruby developers vs >> there being Django and Rails developers (and even Wordpress >> developers...*cough*...vs PHP developers). I got my degree in Computer >> Science, so I just consider myself a developer, period. The point of these >> narrowly scoped dev types is well taken. I wouldn't want to hire anyone >> whose skill set is so tightly tied to a framework. I'd guess in most cases >> such developers wouldn't 'scale' well in a growing startup. >> >> And +1 to Torsten's comment about Python, rather than just Pyramid itself, >> having a user base with strong programming roots beyond just web development >> within a framework. >> >> And +1 to Jonathan. Totally agree with you on: Lower-level frameworks like >> Flask, Pyramid, etc tend to attract developers more interested-in or >> experienced-with the language, the user pool is smaller and self-selecting. >> This has both advantages and disadvantages, but in terms of getting the best >> talent on board, it seems the best talent would definitely be more >> interested in/experienced with the 'lower level' frameworks. >> >> Thanks for all the insightful responses, it helps me confirm I still believe >> Pyramid is the right choice for the startup we are building out. Regardless >> of technology stack, we will only being hiring *real* developers and not >> devs who can hide behind a framework as a crutch, obfuscating the depth of >> their real technical knowledge. >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 12:44 AM, Jonathan Vanasco <[email protected] >> <javascript:>> wrote: >> >> I'll preface this by saying that I'm biased towards Pyramid, and when I >> have to program - I prefer it. I begrudgingly program though - I'm usually >> on the business/product/management side. But in the past 3 years: I've >> been working extensively with Pyramid on a personal project, was CTO of a >> large media company that had a re-deploy onto Rails in-progress (a mistake >> that was scrapped), and was the Product/Tech advisor to medium sided media >> company that was on Django. >> >> If you're doing a "Startup" that is in any way unique or looking to scale, >> I would only consider doing it in Pyramid. If it's going to be essentially >> a lot of basic functionality, something off-the-shelf (blog, e-commerce) >> and nothing really proprietary or large scale, then Django/Rails would be >> perfect. Aside from the language difference, Rails and Django are >> basically the same (there are some differences in approach, but both are >> very high level frameworks). If you are a building a one-off project, an >> advertising campaign, are a dev-shop working for a client's time-limited >> event, etc -- then Django/Rails are what you want, and Pyramid would be >> overkill. >> >> Pyramid / Pylons is a very low-level framework. You'll spend more time >> and energy getting some basic things done at the outset, but you won't ever >> be constrained by the Framework or Data Model, and your velocity will >> improve or stay consistent as you need to pivot or scale. You can make >> large changes with little work, and easily introduce "quick fixes" if >> needed. >> >> Django is very high level. It's so high-level, that most people I know >> consider it more like editing configuration files than writing Python. >> You'll be off to a quick start in basic functionality, but quickly feel >> constrained by a fairly rigid API and the need to do things the Django way. >> Your velocity will plummet as the project moves onwards. It can be >> exceedingly hard to implement a "quick fix", because the framework is so >> tightly integrated. Adding new functionality and addressing bottlenecks >> can be aggravating. >> >> Rails is basically the same as Django, except it's in Ruby. >> In terms of hiring... from firsthand experience it is incredibly hard to >> find *good* Django/Ruby developers. This has less to do with the concept >> of a "Developers Market" that others noted (which is true) than it has to >> do with the overall talent pool. While there are a lot of really brilliant >> Python/Ruby developers in the Django/Ruby community, I've found that the >> majority the community are Django/Ruby developers -- NOT Python/Ruby >> developers. These people tend to be pretty unfamiliar with the core >> language and just know the framework -- usually through a HowTo book or >> some sort of bootstrap class. Bad developers flock to the buzzwords: to >> Java, then to PHP, and then to Django/Rails. The result is that the >> signal-to-noise ratio in the Django/Rails applicant pool is ridiculously >> low -- and you can spend months trying to source candidates worth bringing >> in to an interview -- only to end up paying a premium for bad developers >> who simply know the stack. I've had Rails/Django devs with 2 years >> professional experience demand higher compensation than developers with 10 >> years of work experience who were experts in a field. It's a ridiculous >> premium. >> >> Lower-level frameworks like Flask, Pyramid, etc tend to attract developers >> more interested-in or experienced-with the language, the user pool is >> smaller and self-selecting. This is simply a correlated effect to the >> popularity of the frameworks. So you might identify 100 candidates for a >> Rails/Django position, but only want to interview 2 after seeing their >> resumes... meanwhile you might identity 5 candidates for a Pyramid/Flask >> position and probably want to bring all of them in. There are definitely a >> lot more "good" Rails/Django developers than Pyramid/Flask developers -- >> but you'll have to sort through hundreds of applications or profiles to >> find them. >> >> If you do go the Django/Rails route, I would suggest doing all your >> recruiting by targeting people through contributions to open source >> projects. All the best applicants I've met were either active contributors >> to larger projects, or had a few small (and well written) libraries of >> their own -- and I could quickly judge if they actually knew Python/Ruby or >> not. >> >> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "pylons-discuss" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected] <javascript:>. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >> <javascript:>. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------ >> Steve Piercy, Soquel, CA >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "pylons-discuss" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "pylons-discuss" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "pylons-discuss" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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