Also, many Jews go back and forth between Israel and other countries, or have close relatives in both places. IDK any American or Canadian Jewish person that I can think of who does not have a relative in Israel. Having said that, IDK a single Jewish person who supports Netanyahu. (There may be someone in the US or Canada , but I don’t know them.)
> On Dec 3, 2024, at 5:01 PM, Seth Rosen <rosen...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Paul - there are many Jews who take issue with Israel’s government (American > and Israeli), and many others who take issue with her approach. I see no > issue with that dialogue, and I know for a fact that it occurs in many and > possibly every Jewish household including my own. > > That doesn’t change the fact that Israel hate and Jew hate are mostly the > same thing. It’s a fairly straightforward connection, and it can appear a > little disingenuous when folks don’t acknowledge it. People who have anger > toward Israel also have anger toward the Jews. Her enemies don’t simply wish > to eliminate Israel the State… they seek to eliminate every Jew that lives > within her borders. The so-called colonizers and zionists to which the event > description refers. > > Israel is the national homeland of the Jewish people. It’s a majority Jewish > country. It’s the only country explicitly established to provide safety and > security for Jews after literally millennia of persecution. > > The type of vitriolic propaganda (from the river to the sea, and the like) > contained in this talk is the same type that calls for the elimination of the > state of Israel and all the Jews in it. > > It seems like what you’re arguing is that American Jews are just very > different than the Israeli Jews, and you’re just talking about “the Israeli > ones.” It’s dangerous. We are the same people. > > The Jews over in Israel are the same people who fled persecution less than > 100 years ago. After the war, the very few that survived (including a > fortunate few in my own family) made their way there and oversaw the > formation, defense, and construction of the State. > > The Jews here in the US (the second largest population of Jews outside of > Israel) are also a relatively new phenomenon. It wasn’t until 1880 that Jews > came here in any significant number, fleeing persecution in Europe, Russia > and elsewhere. > > So to put a finer point on it — people historically haven’t liked us very > much. And they’ve been trying to kill us for a long time. As a result, we > haven’t been able to get settled down in any one place for too long because > of that fact. We don’t get too comfortable, because history suggests we > shouldn’t. > > So we’re a little sensitive to hate mongering because we’ve seen how it ends > up, and we know history tends to repeat itself. > > Seth Rosen > >> On Dec 3, 2024, at 10:26 AM, Paul Shorb <paul.sh...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> Yes the speakers may intend to generate anger at Israel. Or at least >> recognize that will be a foreseeable reaction. >> >> However, you lose me when you then add “and by extension the Jewish >> community”. What is your basis for inferring that intent? And what do you >> mean by “the Jewish community”? I note that many Jews condemn Israel’s >> treatment of Gaza. >> >> On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 11:55 AM Rosa Elena <rvillalobos3...@gmail.com >> <mailto:rvillalobos3...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> While I agree that we should not censor good faith discussions on difficult >>> topics, can we really say that that the intent of this specific meeting is >>> in “good faith”? Let’s take a look at the invitation (please look at the >>> pdf with the actual description of the event). It says things like the >>> following: >>> >>> “… confirm Israel as a Jewish supremacist/apartheid state, and to further >>> subjugate or eliminate non-Jews living in a Greater Israel.” >>> >>> “Zionism today (…) has emerged as an expression of neocolonialism, >>> Christian nationalism, and fascism.” >>> >>> Using words and phrases like supremacist, Apartheid, elimination of >>> non-Jews, fascism - is that “good-faith criticism” or hyperbolic language >>> meant to incense and generate anger/fear of Israel and by extension the >>> Jewish community? I am all for a fact-based discussion with multiple >>> perspectives, but that does not seem to be the goal of this talk. >>> >>> I don’t think the “real-life risk” of hate crimes due to this type of >>> language is as low as some might like to think it is. To me, the fact that >>> these “experts” chose to use this type of tired rethoric instead of >>> fact-based and rational arguments diminishes their respectability, and yes, >>> I find it dangerous. >>> >>> - Rosa >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 2, 2024 at 6:07 PM Joan Kimball <selene...@gmail.com >>> <mailto:selene...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>> Thank you Paul. A very thoughtful, clear response that, for me, puts >>>> these very difficult issues in perspective. >>>> >>>> Joan >>>> >>>> On Mon, Dec 2, 2024, 12:46 PM Paul Shorb <paul.sh...@gmail.com >>>> <mailto:paul.sh...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>> Rosa - >>>>> One can't deny the fact that sometimes, anger at Israel seems to >>>>> trigger/release/self-justify hate crimes against Jews in the United >>>>> States. Similarly, hate crimes against Muslims soared after 9/11 >>>>> <https://naacp.org/resources/hate-crimes-against-muslims>; >>>>> African-Americans were lynched in New York City riots of 1863 >>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_draft_riots> by people >>>>> opposed to the Civil War draft; etc. All of these actions targeting >>>>> innocent people based on race or religion obviously are terrible. >>>>> >>>>> However, that real-life risk isn't sufficient reason to censor good-faith >>>>> criticism of Israel for actions that arguably also are terrible - and at >>>>> a scale at least thousands of times as large as the increase in hate >>>>> crimes in the U.S. that might result. Especially when American taxpayer >>>>> dollars are supporting those actions, American citizens have not only a >>>>> right, but also a moral duty, to speak out against something they believe >>>>> is unjustly causing massive suffering in Gaza. >>>>> >>>>> Of course in doing so such critics should clearly focus their criticism >>>>> on the morally responsible decision makers (e.g., Netanyahu, American >>>>> politicians who support his policies, etc.), not Jewish people generally. >>>>> >>>>> - Paul Shorb >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 29, 2024 at 11:32 PM Rosa Elena <rvillalobos3...@gmail.com >>>>> <mailto:rvillalobos3...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>>> The description of the event (in the pdf attached to the original email >>>>>> and copied below for context) is pretty one-sided and not conducive to >>>>>> “thoughtful discussion” with multiple perspectives. Honestly, I am >>>>>> shocked Bemis Hall would host an event where the description has such >>>>>> strong inflammatory language, which could be construed as an attack on a >>>>>> specific population, of which we have citizens living in Lincoln. >>>>>> >>>>>> From the event description: >>>>>> >>>>>> “The Gaza genocide that began over a year ago has morphed into Israel’s >>>>>> three-front strategy to expand its borders and replace non-Jews living >>>>>> in Gaza, Lebanon, and the West Bank with an army, citizens militia, and >>>>>> Jewish settlements. Based on past, aggressively pro-Zionist policies, an >>>>>> incoming Trump administration appears ready to confirm Israel as a >>>>>> Jewish supremacist/apartheid state, and to further subjugate or >>>>>> eliminate non-Jews living in a Greater Israel. In calling for an end to >>>>>> Israeli apartheid and for a shared homeland for all, we join the >>>>>> struggle against the rise of authoritarianism in Europe, the Global >>>>>> South, and the United States. Zionism today, as ideology, theology and >>>>>> political project, has emerged as an expression of neocolonialism, >>>>>> Christian nationalism, and fascism.” >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Nov 28, 2024 at 12:33 PM Annamaria San Antonio >>>>>> <into...@jaikaurhealingarts.com <mailto:into...@jaikaurhealingarts.com>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> Agreed. Thank you, Sara !!! >>>>>>> I did not see this at all as propaganda and very much appreciated >>>>>>> hearing about an event with thoughtful discussion. Dangerous ? Perhaps >>>>>>> I did not read through but I did not see "false claims of genocide and >>>>>>> apartheid". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Peace >>>>>>> ~Jai . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 27, 2024 at 4:38 PM Sara Mattes <samat...@gmail.com >>>>>>> <mailto:samat...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>>>>> I would urge all to listen/attend before passing judgement. >>>>>>>> We have few opportunities to hear rom and question directly such >>>>>>>> individuals with direct experience. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Perhaps those objecting are familiar with the speakers and would like >>>>>>>> to share their experiences so that others might know what to expect? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Let’s keep an open mind and allow others to judge for themselves. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Namaste, >>>>>>>> Sara >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 27, 2024, at 12:22 PM, Jonathan Sheffi <jshe...@gmail.com >>>>>>>>> <mailto:jshe...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Amen, Forest. Ideological diversity is well and good, but let's >>>>>>>>> please keep LT apolitical and free from this sort of low-grade >>>>>>>>> propaganda. >>>>>>>>> ᐧ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 27, 2024 at 11:47 AM Forest Brown >>>>>>>>> <forestbrow...@gmail.com <mailto:forestbrow...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> I appreciate your wanting dialogue on this issue, but advertising >>>>>>>>>> speakers who are sharing false claims of genocide and apartheid is >>>>>>>>>> dangerous and this isn’t the platform for that. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 27, 2024, at 9:07 AM, Stephen R. Low >>>>>>>>>>> <steve....@gordianconcepts.com >>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:steve....@gordianconcepts.com>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>>> Steve Low >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> From: Stephen R. Low <steve....@gordianconcepts.com >>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:steve....@gordianconcepts.com>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: November 27, 2024 9:07 AM >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Exploring the Holy Land Problem: Friday, Dec 6 and >>>>>>>>>>> Saturday, Dec 7 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Palestinians, Israeli Jews, and those of us who care about them >>>>>>>>>>> have never faced challenges greater than today’s. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Contributing to this mess has been the Biden administration’s Holy >>>>>>>>>>> Land policies, which have been—shall I be polite and say, “awkward?” >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Now, we await a Trump administration, whose 2016–2020 Israel >>>>>>>>>>> policies were so ill-considered and unbalanced, that many believe >>>>>>>>>>> they helped to incite Hamas’s murderous attack on October 7, 2023. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> These “realities” pose major challenges for all of us seeking >>>>>>>>>>> peace, equality, and justice in the Holy Land. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Rather than wring our hands in despair, the GRALTA Foundation has >>>>>>>>>>> organized two events to help us shape constructive, outside-the-box >>>>>>>>>>> thinking about how to refine the American people’s understanding of >>>>>>>>>>> the Holy Land Problem and how to advocate for new U.S. Mideast >>>>>>>>>>> policies that will improve conditions and achieve security for all >>>>>>>>>>> who live there. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Here are two (free) opportunities to hear two internationally-known >>>>>>>>>>> speakers—two experts on the Holy Land’s human rights problem—who >>>>>>>>>>> can help us to answer the question, “Where can we go from here? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Friday, Dec. 6 @ 7:30 PM >>>>>>>>>>> Community Church of Boston >>>>>>>>>>> 565 Boylston St., Boston >>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/565+Boylston+St.,+Boston?entry=gmail&source=g> >>>>>>>>>>> accessible via the T, between Dartmouth & Clarendon or >>>>>>>>>>> discount vouchers available for Back Bay Parking Garage, 199 >>>>>>>>>>> Clarendon Street >>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/199+Clarendon+Street?entry=gmail&source=g>. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Saturday, Dec. 7 @ 2:00 PM >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Bemis Hall >>>>>>>>>>> 15 Bedford Rd., Lincoln, MA >>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/15+Bedford+Rd.,+Lincoln,+MA?entry=gmail&source=g> >>>>>>>>>>> park across the street at the “Stone Church” >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Please join us for one of these events. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Our speakers: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> <> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> <image002.jpg> >>>>>>>>>>> Mazin Qumsiyeh Human Rights Activist, Professor, Bethlehem & >>>>>>>>>>> Birzeit Universities >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Prof. Qumsiyeh was born and raised in Beit Sahour on the outskirts >>>>>>>>>>> of Bethlehem. His evolving world views have been shaped by living >>>>>>>>>>> under Israeli occupation, the education he received at universities >>>>>>>>>>> in the Middle East and the U.S., and on years of extensive travel >>>>>>>>>>> throughout the world. After obtaining a doctorate in Zoology and >>>>>>>>>>> Genetics from Texas Tech, Mazin trained at the St. Jude Children’s >>>>>>>>>>> Research Hospital and taught at the University of Tennessee, Duke, >>>>>>>>>>> and then at Yale. He is author of 190 scientific papers, hundreds >>>>>>>>>>> of articles, and several books on topics ranging from cultural >>>>>>>>>>> heritage to human rights to biodiversity conservation to cancer. >>>>>>>>>>> After returning to Palestine in 2008, Mazin and his wife Jessie >>>>>>>>>>> Chang founded and run (as volunteers) the Palestine Institute for >>>>>>>>>>> Biodiversity & Sustainability and the Palestine Museum of Natural >>>>>>>>>>> History—both situated on the Bethlehem University campus. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> <image004.jpg> >>>>>>>>>>> Mark Braverman Executive Director, Kairos, USA >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Dr. Mark Braverman is a retired clinical psychologist and trauma >>>>>>>>>>> consultant. Raised in a traditional Jewish family, he was steeped >>>>>>>>>>> in Jewish religious observance, Bible study, the Hebrew language, >>>>>>>>>>> and the Zionist narrative. Confronted by the reality of ethnic >>>>>>>>>>> cleansing and ongoing colonial settlement of Palestine, Mark has >>>>>>>>>>> devoted himself since 2006 to working for a future of dignity and >>>>>>>>>>> peace for all the people living between the River and the Sea. >>>>>>>>>>> Mark has been closely involved in the international church movement >>>>>>>>>>> for Palestinian rights. He spoke at the launch of the Kairos >>>>>>>>>>> Palestine document in Bethlehem in 2009 and served on the Palestine >>>>>>>>>>> Ecumenical Forum of the World Council of Churches. He is the author >>>>>>>>>>> of two books and numerous journal articles and book chapters on the >>>>>>>>>>> Kairos movement, ecumenism, post-holocaust theology, Jewish and >>>>>>>>>>> Christian Zionism, and Christian-Jewish relations. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>>> Steve Low >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> <002 v-1 Qumsiyeh-Braverman Poster.pdf> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >>>>>>>>>>> To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org >>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:Lincoln@lincolntalk.org>. >>>>>>>>>>> Browse the archives at >>>>>>>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >>>>>>>>>>> Change your subscription settings at >>>>>>>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >>>>>>>>>> To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org >>>>>>>>>> <mailto:Lincoln@lincolntalk.org>. >>>>>>>>>> Browse the archives at >>>>>>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >>>>>>>>>> Change your subscription settings at >>>>>>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >>>>>>>>> To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org >>>>>>>>> <mailto:Lincoln@lincolntalk.org>. >>>>>>>>> Browse the archives at >>>>>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >>>>>>>>> Change your subscription settings at >>>>>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >>>>>>>> To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org >>>>>>>> <mailto:Lincoln@lincolntalk.org>. >>>>>>>> Browse the archives at >>>>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >>>>>>>> Change your subscription settings at >>>>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >>>>>>> To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org >>>>>>> <mailto:Lincoln@lincolntalk.org>. >>>>>>> Browse the archives at >>>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >>>>>>> Change your subscription settings at >>>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >>>>>> To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org >>>>>> <mailto:Lincoln@lincolntalk.org>. >>>>>> Browse the archives at >>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >>>>>> Change your subscription settings at >>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >>>>> To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org >>>>> <mailto:Lincoln@lincolntalk.org>. >>>>> Browse the archives at >>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >>>>> Change your subscription settings at >>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >>>> To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org >>>> <mailto:Lincoln@lincolntalk.org>. >>>> Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >>>> Change your subscription settings at >>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >>>> >> -- >> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >> To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. >> Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >> Change your subscription settings at >> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >> > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >
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