Paul - there are many Jews who take issue with Israel’s government (American and Israeli), and many others who take issue with her approach. I see no issue with that dialogue, and I know for a fact that it occurs in many and possibly every Jewish household including my own.
That doesn’t change the fact that Israel hate and Jew hate are mostly the same thing. It’s a fairly straightforward connection, and it can appear a little disingenuous when folks don’t acknowledge it. People who have anger toward Israel also have anger toward the Jews. Her enemies don’t simply wish to eliminate Israel the State… they seek to eliminate every Jew that lives within her borders. The so-called colonizers and zionists to which the event description refers.
Israel is the national homeland of the Jewish people. It’s a majority Jewish country. It’s the only country explicitly established to provide safety and security for Jews after literally millennia of persecution.
The type of vitriolic propaganda (from the river to the sea, and the like) contained in this talk is the same type that calls for the elimination of the state of Israel and all the Jews in it.
It seems like what you’re arguing is that American Jews are just very different than the Israeli Jews, and you’re just talking about “the Israeli ones.” It’s dangerous. We are the same people.
The Jews over in Israel are the same people who fled persecution less than 100 years ago. After the war, the very few that survived (including a fortunate few in my own family) made their way there and oversaw the formation, defense, and construction of the State.
The Jews here in the US (the second largest population of Jews outside of Israel) are also a relatively new phenomenon. It wasn’t until 1880 that Jews came here in any significant number, fleeing persecution in Europe, Russia and elsewhere.
So to put a finer point on it — people historically haven’t liked us very much. And they’ve been trying to kill us for a long time. As a result, we haven’t been able to get settled down in any one place for too long because of that fact. We don’t get too comfortable, because history suggests we shouldn’t.
So we’re a little sensitive to hate mongering because we’ve seen how it ends up, and we know history tends to repeat itself.
Seth Rosen On Dec 3, 2024, at 10:26 AM, Paul Shorb <paul.sh...@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes the speakers may intend to generate anger at Israel. Or at least recognize that will be a foreseeable reaction.
However, you lose me when you then add “and by extension the Jewish community”. What is your basis for inferring that intent? And what do you mean by “the Jewish community”? I note that many Jews condemn Israel’s treatment of Gaza. While I agree that we should not censor good faith discussions on difficult topics, can we really say that that the intent of this specific meeting is in “good faith”? Let’s take a look at the invitation (please look at the pdf with the actual description of the event). It says things like the following:
“… confirm Israel as a Jewish supremacist/apartheid state, and to further subjugate or eliminate non-Jews living in a Greater Israel.”
“Zionism today (…) has emerged as an _expression_ of neocolonialism, Christian nationalism, and fascism.”
Using words and phrases like supremacist, Apartheid, elimination of non-Jews, fascism - is that “good-faith criticism” or hyperbolic language meant to incense and generate anger/fear of Israel and by extension the Jewish community? I am all for a fact-based discussion with multiple perspectives, but that does not seem to be the goal of this talk.
I don’t think the “real-life risk” of hate crimes due to this type of language is as low as some might like to think it is. To me, the fact that these “experts” chose to use this type of tired rethoric instead of fact-based and rational arguments diminishes their respectability, and yes, I find it dangerous.
- Rosa Thank you Paul. A very thoughtful, clear response that, for me, puts these very difficult issues in perspective.
Rosa - One can't deny the fact that sometimes, anger at Israel seems to trigger/release/self-justify hate crimes against Jews in the United States. Similarly, hate crimes against Muslims soared after 9/11; African-Americans were lynched in New York City riots of 1863 by people opposed to the Civil War draft; etc. All of these actions targeting innocent people based on race or religion obviously are terrible.
However, that real-life risk isn't sufficient reason to censor good-faith criticism of Israel for actions that arguably also are terrible - and at a scale at least thousands of times as large as the increase in hate crimes in the U.S. that might result. Especially when American taxpayer dollars are supporting those actions, American citizens have not only a right, but also a moral duty, to speak out against something they believe is unjustly causing massive suffering in Gaza.
Of course in doing so such critics should clearly focus their criticism on the morally responsible decision makers (e.g., Netanyahu, American politicians who support his policies, etc.), not Jewish people generally.
- Paul Shorb
The description of the event (in the pdf attached to the original email and copied below for context) is pretty one-sided and not conducive to “thoughtful discussion” with multiple perspectives. Honestly, I am shocked Bemis Hall would host an event where the description has such strong inflammatory language, which could be construed as an attack on a specific population, of which we have citizens living in Lincoln.
From the event description: “The
Gaza genocide that began over a year ago has morphed into Israel’s three-front strategy to expand its
borders and replace non-Jews living in Gaza, Lebanon, and the West Bank with an army, citizens militia,
and Jewish settlements. Based on past, aggressively pro-Zionist policies, an incoming Trump
administration appears ready to confirm Israel as a Jewish supremacist/apartheid state, and to further
subjugate or eliminate non-Jews living in a Greater Israel.
In calling for an end to Israeli apartheid and for a shared homeland for all, we join the struggle against the rise
of authoritarianism in Europe, the Global South, and the United States. Zionism today, as ideology, theology
and political project, has emerged as an _expression_ of neocolonialism, Christian nationalism, and fascism.” Agreed. Thank you, Sara !!! I did not see this at all as propaganda and very much appreciated hearing about an event with thoughtful discussion. Dangerous ? Perhaps I did not read through but I did not see "false claims of genocide and apartheid".
Peace ~Jai .
I would urge all to listen/attend before passing judgement. We have few opportunities to hear rom and question directly such individuals with direct experience.
Perhaps those objecting are familiar with the speakers and would like to share their experiences so that others might know what to expect?
Let’s keep an open mind and allow others to judge for themselves.
Namaste, Sara
Amen, Forest. Ideological diversity is well and good, but let's please keep LT apolitical and free from this sort of low-grade propaganda. ![]() ᐧI appreciate your wanting dialogue on this issue, but advertising speakers who are sharing false claims of genocide and apartheid is dangerous and this isn’t the platform for that. From: Stephen R. Low <steve....@gordianconcepts.com>
Sent: November 27, 2024 9:07 AM
Subject: Exploring the Holy Land Problem: Friday, Dec 6 and Saturday, Dec 7 Palestinians, Israeli Jews, and those of us who care about them have never faced challenges greater than today’s. Contributing to this mess has been the Biden administration’s Holy Land policies, which have been—shall I be polite and say, “awkward?” Now, we await a Trump administration, whose 2016–2020 Israel policies were so ill-considered and unbalanced, that many believe they helped to incite Hamas’s murderous attack on October 7, 2023. These “realities” pose major challenges for all of us seeking peace, equality, and justice in the Holy Land. Rather than wring our hands in despair, the GRALTA Foundation has organized two events to help us shape constructive, outside-the-box thinking about how to refine the American people’s understanding of the Holy Land Problem and how to advocate for new U.S. Mideast policies that will improve conditions and achieve security for all who live there. Here are two (free) opportunities to hear two internationally-known speakers—two experts on the Holy Land’s human rights problem—who can help us to answer the question, “Where can we go from here? Friday, Dec. 6 @ 7:30 PM
Community Church of Boston
565 Boylston St., Boston accessible via the T, between Dartmouth & Clarendon or
discount vouchers available for Back Bay Parking Garage, 199 Clarendon Street. Saturday, Dec. 7 @ 2:00 PM Bemis Hall
15 Bedford Rd., Lincoln, MA park across the street at the “Stone Church” Please join us for one of these events. Our speakers:
<image002.jpg> Mazin Qumsiyeh Human Rights Activist, Professor, Bethlehem & Birzeit Universities
Prof. Qumsiyeh was born and raised in Beit Sahour on the outskirts of Bethlehem. His evolving world views have been shaped by living under Israeli occupation, the education he received at universities in the Middle East and the U.S., and on years of extensive travel throughout the world. After obtaining a doctorate in Zoology and Genetics from Texas Tech, Mazin trained at the St. Jude Children’s Research Hospital and taught at the University of Tennessee, Duke, and then at Yale. He is author of 190 scientific papers, hundreds of articles, and several books on topics ranging from cultural heritage to human rights to biodiversity conservation to cancer. After returning to Palestine in 2008, Mazin and his wife Jessie Chang founded and run (as volunteers) the Palestine Institute for Biodiversity & Sustainability and the Palestine Museum of Natural History—both situated on the Bethlehem University campus.
<image004.jpg> Mark Braverman Executive Director, Kairos, USA
Dr. Mark Braverman is a retired clinical psychologist and trauma consultant. Raised in a traditional Jewish family, he was steeped in Jewish religious observance, Bible study, the Hebrew language, and the Zionist narrative. Confronted by the reality of ethnic cleansing and ongoing colonial settlement of Palestine, Mark has devoted himself since 2006 to working for a future of dignity and peace for all the people living between the River and the Sea. Mark has been closely involved in the international church movement for Palestinian rights. He spoke at the launch of the Kairos Palestine document in Bethlehem in 2009 and served on the Palestine Ecumenical Forum of the World Council of Churches. He is the author of two books and numerous journal articles and book chapters on the Kairos movement, ecumenism, post-holocaust theology, Jewish and Christian Zionism, and Christian-Jewish relations. Regards,
Steve Low <002 v-1 Qumsiyeh-Braverman Poster.pdf> -- The LincolnTalk mailing list.To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org.Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/.Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.
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