*“And, that no one who is not a Jew, by birth cannot understand antisemitism”*
I don’t believe that is what some of our Jewish town residents are saying. What Forest, Jonathan, Lisa, Margo and others are asking us to do is to listen to their experience with this *particular* type of inflammatory type of language and this *particular* speaker and the impact that it has on them as Jews. Looks like Qumfiyeh has been speaking against Jews for years, many years prior to the current conflict and in a highly-offensive way. The truth is that non-Jews have a different lived experience, so we owe it to Jews to listen. As white people, we must listen to Black and Brown people to understand our privilege and unconscious bias. As cisgender people, we must listen to LGBTQ folks’ concerns. I am a Venezuelan immigrant, so I would hope that folks would listen to my lived experience instead of just assuming we are all gang members or do in fact eat cats and dogs. All that our Jewish citizens are asking for is the same open mindedness to listen to their lived experience and the impact this particular speaker has on them, in their own home town. There needs to be a better way to have this conversation. ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Sara Mattes <samat...@gmail.com> Date: Thu, Dec 5, 2024 at 10:22 AM Subject: Re: [LincolnTalk] Exploring the Holy Land Problem: Friday, Dec 6 and Saturday, Dec 7 To: Lincoln Talk <lincoln@lincolntalk.org> CC: Forest Brown <forestbrow...@gmail.com> An odd post below- It would seem the author is dismissing any in this conversation who do not embrace the hostility to the upcoming program. And, that no one who is not a Jew, by birth cannot understand antisemitism is fairly uneducated in the history of many non-Jews who stood with Jews in a variety of human rights endeavors, and those who gave their lives to raise issues about dangers to Jews ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer No one is dismissing struggles. That is a bizarre leap from my previous posts. And one does not have other be a Jew to know something of Jewish history, not does need to have a direct connection to Isreal (I have relatives there, but that is neither here not there). And then there is this comment: "I am deeply grateful to those who approach these complex conversations with humility, willing to pause and reflect when others are crying out for help and understanding." To suggest that others than those who are opposed to the upcoming lectures approach the debate lack empathy, humility or sensitivity is downright insulting! On Dec 4, 2024, at 12:18 PM, Forest Brown <forestbrow...@gmail.com> wrote: Thank you to everyone who has contributed thoughtfully to this conversation, sharing facts and insights rather than relying on assumptions or feelings. It’s relevant to mention that when a Black person shares their experience of something they feel is racially discriminatory or offensive, it’s crucial for others—especially white individuals—not to dismiss those feelings by saying, “it’s not racist.” This dynamic can reflect deeper power imbalances and a history where white voices have often dominated the conversation about racism, even in situations they haven’t directly experienced. I am seeing this happen here to Jews. I would be deeply troubled to hear a white person dismiss the struggles of Black people with phrases like "there’s enough hate to go around" or “chew gum while walking.” Antisemitism is often subtle and can be overlooked. When the Black Lives Matter movement began, many white people were confronted with the reality of their own biases and took the initiative to educate themselves. A similar approach—one of openness and humility—would be greatly appreciated here, especially as Jews and allies have shared important facts and perspectives that seem to have been overlooked in this discussion- and sadly seem to be getting ignored as the conversation continues by those defending the presentation in question. It is painful to witness others tell Jews what is or isn’t antisemitic, particularly when they do not have a direct connection to Israel or a deep understanding of Jewish history. Knowing or marrying someone Jewish, or disliking a specific political conflict, does not give anyone the authority to define antisemitism for the Jewish community. I am deeply grateful to those who approach these complex conversations with humility, willing to pause and reflect when others are crying out for help and understanding. On Dec 4, 2024, at 11:35 AM, Margo Fisher-Martin < margo.fisher.mar...@gmail.com> wrote: Sara and Lt, I think that although you might be able to, many people CANNOT “walk and chew gum” at the same time - to use your analogy. I agree with Seth that Israel hate and Jew hate are very much connected, and this type of presentation will only foster antisemitism, no matter how well-meaning attendees are. Margo On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 10:26 AM Dianeclimo--- via Lincoln < lincoln@lincolntalk.org> wrote: > Two comments : > > 1. The bombing of Gaza and Lebanon is directed at two terrorist > organizations that lead their citizens to hate the Jewish people not only > in Israel, and with the desire to wipe all of the Jewish people off the > face of the earth.This war is not for political purposes; it is for > survival. > > 2. Furthermore, please don’t tell me that the Palestinians have a better > claim to the land of Israel when the Jewish people have sought to return > “home” for thousands of years since the Romans destroyed the Temple in > Jerusalem and the diaspora began. > > How many Lincoln women, gays, transgenders, bi-sexuals would like to live > in Gaza, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Egypt and Saudi Arabia? Israel is the > ONLY place in the middle east that upholds the values for which we fought > for in 1775. > > > On 12/04/2024 9:42 AM EST Sara Mattes <samat...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > All, > I believe that we here in Lincoln can walk and chew gum at the same time. > > We can love a country and its people and despise its leadership and the > actions of leadership, especially when it comes to war. > We can hold sympathies/empathy for a civilian population being devastated > by bombs, and want to seek ways to assist them/defend them, while we > despise that use them for political purposes. > > We can hold special concern for oppressed populations who have suffered > under despotic colonial rule for centuries. > This country itself sought to free itself from what has become such rule, > and we took up arms to that on April19,1775. > We “settled” this land by pushing out, removing, going to war with those > who had lived here before. > We built this country on the backs of forced labor that we brought here > against their will, then bought, sold traded that labor. > Our wealth was built on the backs of that forced labor, all while we > debated how best to govern ourselves. > > This country, while having a ideal of tolerance, has, in practice has had > racism (and all sorts of other “isms”, antisemitism included) in its DNA. > > History is messy and there is enough hate to go around. > > Let’s take a deep breath and recognize that perhaps it might be a good > thing to hear from those advocating for the rights of another peoples-the > Palestinians-not Hamas or Hezbollah-the Palestinians and their long history > of struggling to secure a homeland. > > We can do it. > > > > > > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > *From: *Jennifer Saffran <jennifer.saff...@gmail.com> > *Subject: **Re: [LincolnTalk] Exploring the Holy Land Problem: Friday, > Dec 6 and Saturday, Dec 7* > *Date: *December 3, 2024 at 7:43:52 PM EST > *To: *Seth Rosen <rosen...@gmail.com> > *Cc: *Forest Brown <forestbrow...@gmail.com>, Lincoln Talk < > lincoln@lincolntalk.org> > > Also, many Jews go back and forth between Israel and other countries, or > have close relatives in both places. IDK any American or Canadian Jewish > person that I can think of who does not have a relative in Israel. Having > said that, IDK a single Jewish person who supports Netanyahu. (There may be > someone in the US or Canada , but I don’t know them.) > > On Dec 3, 2024, at 5:01 PM, Seth Rosen <rosen...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Paul - there are many Jews who take issue with Israel’s government > (American and Israeli), and many others who take issue with her approach. I > see no issue with that dialogue, and I know for a fact that it occurs in > many and possibly every Jewish household including my own. > > That doesn’t change the fact that Israel hate and Jew hate are mostly the > same thing. It’s a fairly straightforward connection, and it can appear a > little disingenuous when folks don’t acknowledge it. People who have anger > toward Israel also have anger toward the Jews. Her enemies don’t simply > wish to eliminate Israel the State… they seek to eliminate every Jew that > lives within her borders. The so-called colonizers and zionists to which > the event description refers. > > Israel is the national homeland of the Jewish people. It’s a majority > Jewish country. It’s the only country explicitly established to provide > safety and security for Jews after literally millennia of persecution. > > The type of vitriolic propaganda (from the river to the sea, and the like) > contained in this talk is the same type that calls for the elimination of > the state of Israel and all the Jews in it. > > It seems like what you’re arguing is that American Jews are just very > different than the Israeli Jews, and you’re just talking about “the Israeli > ones.” It’s dangerous. We are the same people. > > The Jews over in Israel are the same people who fled persecution less than > 100 years ago. After the war, the very few that survived (including a > fortunate few in my own family) made their way there and oversaw the > formation, defense, and construction of the State. > > The Jews here in the US (the second largest population of Jews outside of > Israel) are also a relatively new phenomenon. It wasn’t until 1880 that > Jews came here in any significant number, fleeing persecution in Europe, > Russia and elsewhere. > > So to put a finer point on it — people historically haven’t liked us very > much. And they’ve been trying to kill us for a long time. As a result, we > haven’t been able to get settled down in any one place for too long because > of that fact. We don’t get too comfortable, because history suggests we > shouldn’t. > > So we’re a little sensitive to hate mongering because we’ve seen how it > ends up, and we know history tends to repeat itself. > > Seth Rosen > > On Dec 3, 2024, at 10:26 AM, Paul Shorb <paul.sh...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Yes the speakers may intend to generate anger at Israel. Or at least > recognize that will be a foreseeable reaction. > > However, you lose me when you then add “and by extension the Jewish > community”. What is your basis for inferring that intent? And what do you > mean by “the Jewish community”? I note that many Jews condemn Israel’s > treatment of Gaza. > > On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 11:55 AM Rosa Elena <rvillalobos3...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > While I agree that we should not censor good faith discussions on > difficult topics, can we really say that that the intent of this specific > meeting is in “good faith”? Let’s take a look at the invitation (please > look at the pdf with the actual description of the event). It says things > like the following: > > *“… confirm Israel as a Jewish supremacist/apartheid state, and to further > subjugate or eliminate non-Jews living in a Greater Israel.”* > > *“Zionism today (…) has emerged as an expression of neocolonialism, > Christian nationalism, and fascism.”* > > Using words and phrases like supremacist, Apartheid, elimination of > non-Jews, fascism - is that “good-faith criticism” or hyperbolic language > meant to incense and generate anger/fear of Israel and by extension the > Jewish community? I am all for a fact-based discussion with multiple > perspectives, but that does not seem to be the goal of this talk. > > > I don’t think the “real-life risk” of hate crimes due to this type of > language is as low as some might like to think it is. To me, the fact that > these “experts” chose to use this type of tired rethoric instead of > fact-based and rational arguments diminishes their respectability, and yes, > I find it dangerous. > > - Rosa > > On Mon, Dec 2, 2024 at 6:07 PM Joan Kimball <selene...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Thank you Paul. A very thoughtful, clear response that, for me, puts > these very difficult issues in perspective. > > Joan > > On Mon, Dec 2, 2024, 12:46 PM Paul Shorb <paul.sh...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Rosa - > One can't deny the fact that sometimes, anger at Israel seems to > trigger/release/self-justify hate crimes against Jews in the United States. > Similarly, hate crimes against Muslims soared after 9/11 > <https://naacp.org/resources/hate-crimes-against-muslims>; > African-Americans were lynched in New York City riots of 1863 > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_draft_riots> by people > opposed to the Civil War draft; etc. All of these actions targeting > innocent people based on race or religion obviously are terrible. > > However, that real-life risk isn't sufficient reason to censor good-faith > criticism of Israel for actions that arguably also are terrible - and at a > scale *at least thousands of times as large* as the increase in hate > crimes in the U.S. that might result. Especially when American taxpayer > dollars are supporting those actions, American citizens have not only a > right, but also a moral duty, to speak out against something they believe > is unjustly causing massive suffering in Gaza. > > Of course in doing so such critics should clearly focus their criticism on > the morally responsible decision makers (e.g., Netanyahu, American > politicians who support his policies, etc.), not Jewish people generally. > > - Paul Shorb > > On Fri, Nov 29, 2024 at 11:32 PM Rosa Elena <rvillalobos3...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > The description of the event (in the pdf attached to the original email > and copied below for context) is pretty one-sided and *not* conducive to > “thoughtful discussion” with multiple perspectives. Honestly, I am shocked > Bemis Hall would host an event where the description has such strong > inflammatory language, which could be construed as an attack on a specific > population, of which we have citizens living in Lincoln. > > From the event description: > > “The Gaza genocide that began over a year ago has morphed into Israel’s > three-front strategy to expand its borders and replace non-Jews living in > Gaza, Lebanon, and the West Bank with an army, citizens militia, and Jewish > settlements. Based on past, aggressively pro-Zionist policies, an incoming > Trump administration appears ready to confirm Israel as a Jewish > supremacist/apartheid state, and to further subjugate or eliminate non-Jews > living in a Greater Israel. In calling for an end to Israeli apartheid and > for a shared homeland for all, we join the struggle against the rise of > authoritarianism in Europe, the Global South, and the United States. > Zionism today, as ideology, theology and political project, has emerged as > an expression of neocolonialism, Christian nationalism, and fascism.” > > On Thu, Nov 28, 2024 at 12:33 PM Annamaria San Antonio < > into...@jaikaurhealingarts.com> wrote: > > Agreed. Thank you, Sara !!! > I did not see this at all as propaganda and very much appreciated hearing > about an event with thoughtful discussion. Dangerous ? Perhaps I did not > read through but I did not see "false claims of genocide and apartheid". > > Peace > ~Jai . > > On Wed, Nov 27, 2024 at 4:38 PM Sara Mattes <samat...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I would urge all to listen/attend before passing judgement. > We have few opportunities to hear rom and question directly such > individuals with direct experience. > > Perhaps those objecting are familiar with the speakers and would like to > share their experiences so that others might know what to expect? > > Let’s keep an open mind and allow others to judge for themselves. > > Namaste, > Sara > > On Nov 27, 2024, at 12:22 PM, Jonathan Sheffi <jshe...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Amen, Forest. Ideological diversity is well and good, but let's please > keep LT apolitical and free from this sort of low-grade propaganda. > ᐧ > > On Wed, Nov 27, 2024 at 11:47 AM Forest Brown <forestbrow...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > I appreciate your wanting dialogue on this issue, but advertising speakers > who are sharing false claims of genocide and apartheid is dangerous and > this isn’t the platform for that. > > > > On Nov 27, 2024, at 9:07 AM, Stephen R. Low <steve....@gordianconcepts.com> > wrote: > > > > > > Regards, > Steve Low > > > > *From:* Stephen R. Low <steve....@gordianconcepts.com> > *Sent:* November 27, 2024 9:07 AM > *Subject:* Exploring the Holy Land Problem: Friday, Dec 6 and Saturday, > Dec 7 > > > > *Palestinians, Israeli Jews, and those of us who care about them have > never faced challenges greater than today’s.* > > > > *Contributing to this mess has been the Biden administration’s Holy Land > policies, which have been—shall I be polite and say, “awkward?”* > > > > *Now, we await a Trump administration, whose 2016–2020 Israel policies > were so ill-considered and unbalanced, that many believe they helped to > incite Hamas’s murderous attack on October 7, 2023.* > > > > *These “realities” pose major challenges for all of us seeking peace, > equality, and justice in the Holy Land.* > > > > *Rather than wring our hands in despair, the GRALTA Foundation has > organized two events to help us shape constructive, outside-the-box > thinking about how to refine the American people’s understanding of the > Holy Land Problem and how to advocate for new U.S. Mideast policies that > will improve conditions and achieve security for all who live there.* > > > > *Here are two (free) opportunities to hear two internationally-known > speakers—two experts on the Holy Land’s human rights problem—who can help > us to answer the question, “Where can we go from here?* > > > > *Friday, Dec. 6 @ 7:30 PMCommunity Church of Boston565 Boylston St., > Boston > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/565+Boylston+St.,+Boston?entry=gmail&source=g>* > > *accessible via* > * the T, between Dartmouth & Clarendon ordiscount vouchers available for > Back Bay Parking Garage, 199 Clarendon Street > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/199+Clarendon+Street?entry=gmail&source=g>.* > > > > *Saturday, Dec. 7 @ 2:00 PM* > > > *Bemis Hall 15 Bedford Rd., Lincoln, MA > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/15+Bedford+Rd.,+Lincoln,+MA?entry=gmail&source=g>* > > *park across the street at the “Stone Church”* > > > > *Please join us for one of these events.* > > > > *Our speakers:* > > > > <image002.jpg> > *Mazin Qumsiyeh **Human Rights Activist, Professor**, Bethlehem & > Birzeit Universities* > > > Prof. Qumsiyeh was born and raised in Beit Sahour on the outskirts of > Bethlehem. His evolving world views have been shaped by living under > Israeli occupation, the education he received at universities in the Middle > East and the U.S., and on years of extensive travel throughout the world. > After obtaining a doctorate in Zoology and Genetics from Texas Tech, Mazin > trained at the St. Jude Children’s Research Hospital and taught at the > University of Tennessee, Duke, and then at Yale. He is author of 190 > scientific papers, hundreds of articles, and several books on topics > ranging from cultural heritage to human rights to biodiversity conservation > to cancer. > > After returning to Palestine in 2008, Mazin and his wife Jessie Chang > founded and run (as volunteers) the Palestine Institute for Biodiversity & > Sustainability and the Palestine Museum of Natural History—both situated on > the Bethlehem University campus. > > > > <image004.jpg> > *Mark Braverman **Executive Director, **Kairos, USA* > > > Dr. Mark Braverman is a retired clinical psychologist and trauma > consultant. Raised in a traditional Jewish family, he was steeped in Jewish > religious observance, Bible study, the Hebrew language, and the Zionist > narrative. Confronted by the reality of ethnic cleansing and ongoing > colonial settlement of Palestine, Mark has devoted himself since 2006 to > working for a future of dignity and peace for all the people living between > the River and the Sea. > > Mark has been closely involved in the international church movement for > Palestinian rights. He spoke at the launch of the Kairos Palestine document > in Bethlehem in 2009 and served on the Palestine Ecumenical Forum of the > World Council of Churches. He is the author of two books and numerous > journal articles and book chapters on the Kairos movement, ecumenism, > post-holocaust theology, Jewish and Christian Zionism, and Christian-Jewish > relations. > > > > Regards, > Steve Low > > > <002 v-1 Qumsiyeh-Braverman Poster.pdf> > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. > > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. > > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. > > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. > > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. > > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. > > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. > > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. > > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. > > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. > > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. > > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. > > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/ > . > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > > -- The LincolnTalk mailing list. 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