It's well and good to say, "I wish Netanyahu would call elections to make room for a different prime minister." or "I wish the Israeli government had built a larger regional coalition before beginning its war against Hamas." or "I wish Netanyahu had a clearer vision for post-war Gaza." or "I wish the Israeli and American governments coordinated more effectively to bring about an end to the war."
*That's not what Qumsiyeh advocates*. It's not hard to know his beliefs, as his writing is extensive. He believes Israel should be abolished as a Jewish state, and that Jews should return to the period of statelessness in between the Roman Empire and the founding of the modern state of Israel. He claims that Jews have no connection to the land of Israel, despite the Bible and 3,000 years of archaeological findings. Furthermore, despite his stated support for non-violence, he does not condemn what happened on October 7th. Quite the opposite: he specifically glorified the slaughter and kidnapping of Israeli civilians on October 7th as a "ghetto uprising" <https://5a55e4ca.streaklinks.com/COPUZoQxsSRYewLNGwqUlhro/https%3A%2F%2Fdavidrobie.nz%2F2024%2F05%2Fpalestinian-visionary-who-fights-israels-ecocide-with-biodiversity-and-sustainability-resistance%2F> . As Lincoln, we strive to fight hatred in all its forms. On Saturday, we have a chance to show this man what we're made of: Skip the talk. Let Qumsiyeh preach his bigotry to an empty room. He has the right to speak, and nobody will take it away from him. The rest of us have the right not to listen. ᐧ On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 9:44 AM Sara Mattes <samat...@gmail.com> wrote: > All, > I believe that we here in Lincoln can walk and chew gum at the same time. > > We can love a country and its people and despise its leadership and the > actions of leadership, especially when it comes to war. > We can hold sympathies/empathy for a civilian population being devastated > by bombs, and want to seek ways to assist them/defend them, while we > despise that use them for political purposes. > > We can hold special concern for oppressed populations who have suffered > under despotic colonial rule for centuries. > This country itself sought to free itself from what has become such rule, > and we took up arms to that on April19,1775. > We “settled” this land by pushing out, removing, going to war with those > who had lived here before. > We built this country on the backs of forced labor that we brought here > against their will, then bought, sold traded that labor. > Our wealth was built on the backs of that forced labor, all while we > debated how best to govern ourselves. > > This country, while having a ideal of tolerance, has, in practice has had > racism (and all sorts of other “isms”, antisemitism included) in its DNA. > > History is messy and there is enough hate to go around. > > Let’s take a deep breath and recognize that perhaps it might be a good > thing to hear from those advocating for the rights of another peoples-the > Palestinians-not Hamas or Hezbollah-the Palestinians and their long history > of struggling to secure a homeland. > > We can do it. > > > > > > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > *From: *Jennifer Saffran <jennifer.saff...@gmail.com> > *Subject: **Re: [LincolnTalk] Exploring the Holy Land Problem: Friday, > Dec 6 and Saturday, Dec 7* > *Date: *December 3, 2024 at 7:43:52 PM EST > *To: *Seth Rosen <rosen...@gmail.com> > *Cc: *Forest Brown <forestbrow...@gmail.com>, Lincoln Talk < > lincoln@lincolntalk.org> > > Also, many Jews go back and forth between Israel and other countries, or > have close relatives in both places. IDK any American or Canadian Jewish > person that I can think of who does not have a relative in Israel. Having > said that, IDK a single Jewish person who supports Netanyahu. (There may be > someone in the US or Canada , but I don’t know them.) > > On Dec 3, 2024, at 5:01 PM, Seth Rosen <rosen...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Paul - there are many Jews who take issue with Israel’s government > (American and Israeli), and many others who take issue with her approach. I > see no issue with that dialogue, and I know for a fact that it occurs in > many and possibly every Jewish household including my own. > > That doesn’t change the fact that Israel hate and Jew hate are mostly the > same thing. It’s a fairly straightforward connection, and it can appear a > little disingenuous when folks don’t acknowledge it. People who have anger > toward Israel also have anger toward the Jews. Her enemies don’t simply > wish to eliminate Israel the State… they seek to eliminate every Jew that > lives within her borders. The so-called colonizers and zionists to which > the event description refers. > > Israel is the national homeland of the Jewish people. It’s a majority > Jewish country. It’s the only country explicitly established to provide > safety and security for Jews after literally millennia of persecution. > > The type of vitriolic propaganda (from the river to the sea, and the like) > contained in this talk is the same type that calls for the elimination of > the state of Israel and all the Jews in it. > > It seems like what you’re arguing is that American Jews are just very > different than the Israeli Jews, and you’re just talking about “the Israeli > ones.” It’s dangerous. We are the same people. > > The Jews over in Israel are the same people who fled persecution less than > 100 years ago. After the war, the very few that survived (including a > fortunate few in my own family) made their way there and oversaw the > formation, defense, and construction of the State. > > The Jews here in the US (the second largest population of Jews outside of > Israel) are also a relatively new phenomenon. It wasn’t until 1880 that > Jews came here in any significant number, fleeing persecution in Europe, > Russia and elsewhere. > > So to put a finer point on it — people historically haven’t liked us very > much. And they’ve been trying to kill us for a long time. As a result, we > haven’t been able to get settled down in any one place for too long because > of that fact. We don’t get too comfortable, because history suggests we > shouldn’t. > > So we’re a little sensitive to hate mongering because we’ve seen how it > ends up, and we know history tends to repeat itself. > > Seth Rosen > > On Dec 3, 2024, at 10:26 AM, Paul Shorb <paul.sh...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Yes the speakers may intend to generate anger at Israel. Or at least > recognize that will be a foreseeable reaction. > > However, you lose me when you then add “and by extension the Jewish > community”. What is your basis for inferring that intent? And what do you > mean by “the Jewish community”? I note that many Jews condemn Israel’s > treatment of Gaza. > > On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 11:55 AM Rosa Elena <rvillalobos3...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> While I agree that we should not censor good faith discussions on >> difficult topics, can we really say that that the intent of this specific >> meeting is in “good faith”? Let’s take a look at the invitation (please >> look at the pdf with the actual description of the event). It says things >> like the following: >> >> *“… confirm Israel as a Jewish supremacist/apartheid state, and to >> further subjugate or eliminate non-Jews living in a Greater Israel.”* >> >> >> *“Zionism today (…) has emerged as an expression of neocolonialism, >> Christian nationalism, and fascism.”* >> Using words and phrases like supremacist, Apartheid, elimination of >> non-Jews, fascism - is that “good-faith criticism” or hyperbolic language >> meant to incense and generate anger/fear of Israel and by extension the >> Jewish community? I am all for a fact-based discussion with multiple >> perspectives, but that does not seem to be the goal of this talk. >> >> I don’t think the “real-life risk” of hate crimes due to this type of >> language is as low as some might like to think it is. To me, the fact that >> these “experts” chose to use this type of tired rethoric instead of >> fact-based and rational arguments diminishes their respectability, and yes, >> I find it dangerous. >> >> - Rosa >> >> On Mon, Dec 2, 2024 at 6:07 PM Joan Kimball <selene...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Thank you Paul. A very thoughtful, clear response that, for me, puts >>> these very difficult issues in perspective. >>> >>> Joan >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 2, 2024, 12:46 PM Paul Shorb <paul.sh...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Rosa - >>>> One can't deny the fact that sometimes, anger at Israel seems to >>>> trigger/release/self-justify hate crimes against Jews in the United States. >>>> Similarly, hate crimes against Muslims soared after 9/11 >>>> <https://naacp.org/resources/hate-crimes-against-muslims>; >>>> African-Americans were lynched in New York City riots of 1863 >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_draft_riots> by people >>>> opposed to the Civil War draft; etc. All of these actions targeting >>>> innocent people based on race or religion obviously are terrible. >>>> >>>> However, that real-life risk isn't sufficient reason to censor >>>> good-faith criticism of Israel for actions that arguably also are terrible >>>> - and at a scale *at least thousands of times as large* as the >>>> increase in hate crimes in the U.S. that might result. Especially when >>>> American taxpayer dollars are supporting those actions, American citizens >>>> have not only a right, but also a moral duty, to speak out against >>>> something they believe is unjustly causing massive suffering in Gaza. >>>> >>>> Of course in doing so such critics should clearly focus their criticism >>>> on the morally responsible decision makers (e.g., Netanyahu, American >>>> politicians who support his policies, etc.), not Jewish people generally. >>>> >>>> - Paul Shorb >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 29, 2024 at 11:32 PM Rosa Elena <rvillalobos3...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> The description of the event (in the pdf attached to the original >>>>> email and copied below for context) is pretty one-sided and *not* >>>>> conducive to “thoughtful discussion” with multiple perspectives. Honestly, >>>>> I am shocked Bemis Hall would host an event where the description has such >>>>> strong inflammatory language, which could be construed as an attack on a >>>>> specific population, of which we have citizens living in Lincoln. >>>>> >>>>> From the event description: >>>>> >>>>> “The Gaza genocide that began over a year ago has morphed into >>>>> Israel’s three-front strategy to expand its borders and replace non-Jews >>>>> living in Gaza, Lebanon, and the West Bank with an army, citizens militia, >>>>> and Jewish settlements. Based on past, aggressively pro-Zionist policies, >>>>> an incoming Trump administration appears ready to confirm Israel as a >>>>> Jewish supremacist/apartheid state, and to further subjugate or eliminate >>>>> non-Jews living in a Greater Israel. In calling for an end to Israeli >>>>> apartheid and for a shared homeland for all, we join the struggle against >>>>> the rise of authoritarianism in Europe, the Global South, and the United >>>>> States. Zionism today, as ideology, theology and political project, has >>>>> emerged as an expression of neocolonialism, Christian nationalism, and >>>>> fascism.” >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Nov 28, 2024 at 12:33 PM Annamaria San Antonio < >>>>> into...@jaikaurhealingarts.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Agreed. Thank you, Sara !!! >>>>>> I did not see this at all as propaganda and very much appreciated >>>>>> hearing about an event with thoughtful discussion. Dangerous ? Perhaps I >>>>>> did not read through but I did not see "false claims of genocide and >>>>>> apartheid". >>>>>> >>>>>> Peace >>>>>> ~Jai . >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Nov 27, 2024 at 4:38 PM Sara Mattes <samat...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I would urge all to listen/attend before passing judgement. >>>>>>> We have few opportunities to hear rom and question directly such >>>>>>> individuals with direct experience. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps those objecting are familiar with the speakers and would >>>>>>> like to share their experiences so that others might know what to >>>>>>> expect? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Let’s keep an open mind and allow others to judge for themselves. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Namaste, >>>>>>> Sara >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 27, 2024, at 12:22 PM, Jonathan Sheffi <jshe...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Amen, Forest. Ideological diversity is well and good, but let's >>>>>>> please keep LT apolitical and free from this sort of low-grade >>>>>>> propaganda. >>>>>>> ᐧ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 27, 2024 at 11:47 AM Forest Brown < >>>>>>> forestbrow...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I appreciate your wanting dialogue on this issue, but advertising >>>>>>>> speakers who are sharing false claims of genocide and apartheid is >>>>>>>> dangerous and this isn’t the platform for that. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Nov 27, 2024, at 9:07 AM, Stephen R. Low < >>>>>>>> steve....@gordianconcepts.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>> Steve Low >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *From:* Stephen R. Low <steve....@gordianconcepts.com> >>>>>>>> *Sent:* November 27, 2024 9:07 AM >>>>>>>> *Subject:* Exploring the Holy Land Problem: Friday, Dec 6 and >>>>>>>> Saturday, Dec 7 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Palestinians, Israeli Jews, and those of us who care about them >>>>>>>> have never faced challenges greater than today’s.* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Contributing to this mess has been the Biden administration’s Holy >>>>>>>> Land policies, which have been—shall I be polite and say, “awkward?”* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Now, we await a Trump administration, whose 2016–2020 Israel >>>>>>>> policies were so ill-considered and unbalanced, that many believe they >>>>>>>> helped to incite Hamas’s murderous attack on October 7, 2023.* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *These “realities” pose major challenges for all of us seeking >>>>>>>> peace, equality, and justice in the Holy Land.* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Rather than wring our hands in despair, the GRALTA Foundation has >>>>>>>> organized two events to help us shape constructive, outside-the-box >>>>>>>> thinking about how to refine the American people’s understanding of the >>>>>>>> Holy Land Problem and how to advocate for new U.S. Mideast policies >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> will improve conditions and achieve security for all who live there.* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Here are two (free) opportunities to hear two >>>>>>>> internationally-known speakers—two experts on the Holy Land’s human >>>>>>>> rights >>>>>>>> problem—who can help us to answer the question, “Where can we go from >>>>>>>> here?* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Friday, Dec. 6 @ 7:30 PMCommunity Church of Boston565 Boylston >>>>>>>> St., Boston >>>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/565+Boylston+St.,+Boston?entry=gmail&source=g>* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *accessible via* >>>>>>>> * the T, between Dartmouth & Clarendon ordiscount vouchers >>>>>>>> available for Back Bay Parking Garage, 199 Clarendon Street >>>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/199+Clarendon+Street?entry=gmail&source=g>.* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Saturday, Dec. 7 @ 2:00 PM* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Bemis Hall 15 Bedford Rd., Lincoln, MA >>>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/15+Bedford+Rd.,+Lincoln,+MA?entry=gmail&source=g>* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *park across the street at the “Stone Church”* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Please join us for one of these events.* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Our speakers:* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <image002.jpg> >>>>>>>> *Mazin Qumsiyeh **Human Rights Activist, Professor**, Bethlehem & >>>>>>>> Birzeit Universities* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Prof. Qumsiyeh was born and raised in Beit Sahour on the outskirts >>>>>>>> of Bethlehem. His evolving world views have been shaped by living under >>>>>>>> Israeli occupation, the education he received at universities in the >>>>>>>> Middle >>>>>>>> East and the U.S., and on years of extensive travel throughout the >>>>>>>> world. >>>>>>>> After obtaining a doctorate in Zoology and Genetics from Texas Tech, >>>>>>>> Mazin >>>>>>>> trained at the St. Jude Children’s Research Hospital and taught at the >>>>>>>> University of Tennessee, Duke, and then at Yale. He is author of 190 >>>>>>>> scientific papers, hundreds of articles, and several books on topics >>>>>>>> ranging from cultural heritage to human rights to biodiversity >>>>>>>> conservation >>>>>>>> to cancer. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> After returning to Palestine in 2008, Mazin and his wife Jessie >>>>>>>> Chang founded and run (as volunteers) the Palestine Institute for >>>>>>>> Biodiversity & Sustainability and the Palestine Museum of Natural >>>>>>>> History—both situated on the Bethlehem University campus. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <image004.jpg> >>>>>>>> *Mark Braverman **Executive Director, **Kairos, USA* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dr. Mark Braverman is a retired clinical psychologist and trauma >>>>>>>> consultant. Raised in a traditional Jewish family, he was steeped in >>>>>>>> Jewish >>>>>>>> religious observance, Bible study, the Hebrew language, and the Zionist >>>>>>>> narrative. Confronted by the reality of ethnic cleansing and ongoing >>>>>>>> colonial settlement of Palestine, Mark has devoted himself since 2006 >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> working for a future of dignity and peace for all the people living >>>>>>>> between >>>>>>>> the River and the Sea. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mark has been closely involved in the international church movement >>>>>>>> for Palestinian rights. He spoke at the launch of the Kairos Palestine >>>>>>>> document in Bethlehem in 2009 and served on the Palestine Ecumenical >>>>>>>> Forum >>>>>>>> of the World Council of Churches. He is the author of two books and >>>>>>>> numerous journal articles and book chapters on the Kairos movement, >>>>>>>> ecumenism, post-holocaust theology, Jewish and Christian Zionism, and >>>>>>>> Christian-Jewish relations. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>> Steve Low >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <002 v-1 Qumsiyeh-Braverman Poster.pdf> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >>>>>>>> To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. >>>>>>>> Browse the archives at >>>>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >>>>>>>> Change your subscription settings at >>>>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >>>>>>>> To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. >>>>>>>> Browse the archives at >>>>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >>>>>>>> Change your subscription settings at >>>>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >>>>>>> To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. >>>>>>> Browse the archives at >>>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >>>>>>> Change your subscription settings at >>>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >>>>>>> To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. >>>>>>> Browse the archives at >>>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >>>>>>> Change your subscription settings at >>>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >>>>>> To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. >>>>>> Browse the archives at >>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >>>>>> Change your subscription settings at >>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >>>>> To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. >>>>> Browse the archives at >>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >>>>> Change your subscription settings at >>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >>>> To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. >>>> Browse the archives at >>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >>>> Change your subscription settings at >>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >>>> >>>> -- >>> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >>> To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. >>> Browse the archives at >>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >>> Change your subscription settings at >>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >>> >>> -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/ > . > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/ > . > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > > > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/ > . > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > > > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/ > . > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > >
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