Sara and Lt, I think that although you might be able to, many people CANNOT “walk and chew gum” at the same time - to use your analogy. I agree with Seth that Israel hate and Jew hate are very much connected, and this type of presentation will only foster antisemitism, no matter how well-meaning attendees are.
Margo On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 10:26 AM Dianeclimo--- via Lincoln < lincoln@lincolntalk.org> wrote: > Two comments : > > 1. The bombing of Gaza and Lebanon is directed at two terrorist > organizations that lead their citizens to hate the Jewish people not only > in Israel, and with the desire to wipe all of the Jewish people off the > face of the earth.This war is not for political purposes; it is for > survival. > > 2. Furthermore, please don’t tell me that the Palestinians have a better > claim to the land of Israel when the Jewish people have sought to return > “home” for thousands of years since the Romans destroyed the Temple in > Jerusalem and the diaspora began. > > How many Lincoln women, gays, transgenders, bi-sexuals would like to live > in Gaza, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Egypt and Saudi Arabia? Israel is the > ONLY place in the middle east that upholds the values for which we fought > for in 1775. > > > On 12/04/2024 9:42 AM EST Sara Mattes <samat...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > All, > I believe that we here in Lincoln can walk and chew gum at the same time. > > We can love a country and its people and despise its leadership and the > actions of leadership, especially when it comes to war. > We can hold sympathies/empathy for a civilian population being devastated > by bombs, and want to seek ways to assist them/defend them, while we > despise that use them for political purposes. > > We can hold special concern for oppressed populations who have suffered > under despotic colonial rule for centuries. > This country itself sought to free itself from what has become such rule, > and we took up arms to that on April19,1775. > We “settled” this land by pushing out, removing, going to war with those > who had lived here before. > We built this country on the backs of forced labor that we brought here > against their will, then bought, sold traded that labor. > Our wealth was built on the backs of that forced labor, all while we > debated how best to govern ourselves. > > This country, while having a ideal of tolerance, has, in practice has had > racism (and all sorts of other “isms”, antisemitism included) in its DNA. > > History is messy and there is enough hate to go around. > > Let’s take a deep breath and recognize that perhaps it might be a good > thing to hear from those advocating for the rights of another peoples-the > Palestinians-not Hamas or Hezbollah-the Palestinians and their long history > of struggling to secure a homeland. > > We can do it. > > > > > > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > *From: *Jennifer Saffran <jennifer.saff...@gmail.com> > *Subject: **Re: [LincolnTalk] Exploring the Holy Land Problem: Friday, > Dec 6 and Saturday, Dec 7* > *Date: *December 3, 2024 at 7:43:52 PM EST > *To: *Seth Rosen <rosen...@gmail.com> > *Cc: *Forest Brown <forestbrow...@gmail.com>, Lincoln Talk < > lincoln@lincolntalk.org> > > Also, many Jews go back and forth between Israel and other countries, or > have close relatives in both places. IDK any American or Canadian Jewish > person that I can think of who does not have a relative in Israel. Having > said that, IDK a single Jewish person who supports Netanyahu. (There may be > someone in the US or Canada , but I don’t know them.) > > On Dec 3, 2024, at 5:01 PM, Seth Rosen <rosen...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Paul - there are many Jews who take issue with Israel’s government > (American and Israeli), and many others who take issue with her approach. I > see no issue with that dialogue, and I know for a fact that it occurs in > many and possibly every Jewish household including my own. > > That doesn’t change the fact that Israel hate and Jew hate are mostly the > same thing. It’s a fairly straightforward connection, and it can appear a > little disingenuous when folks don’t acknowledge it. People who have anger > toward Israel also have anger toward the Jews. Her enemies don’t simply > wish to eliminate Israel the State… they seek to eliminate every Jew that > lives within her borders. The so-called colonizers and zionists to which > the event description refers. > > Israel is the national homeland of the Jewish people. It’s a majority > Jewish country. It’s the only country explicitly established to provide > safety and security for Jews after literally millennia of persecution. > > The type of vitriolic propaganda (from the river to the sea, and the like) > contained in this talk is the same type that calls for the elimination of > the state of Israel and all the Jews in it. > > It seems like what you’re arguing is that American Jews are just very > different than the Israeli Jews, and you’re just talking about “the Israeli > ones.” It’s dangerous. We are the same people. > > The Jews over in Israel are the same people who fled persecution less than > 100 years ago. After the war, the very few that survived (including a > fortunate few in my own family) made their way there and oversaw the > formation, defense, and construction of the State. > > The Jews here in the US (the second largest population of Jews outside of > Israel) are also a relatively new phenomenon. It wasn’t until 1880 that > Jews came here in any significant number, fleeing persecution in Europe, > Russia and elsewhere. > > So to put a finer point on it — people historically haven’t liked us very > much. And they’ve been trying to kill us for a long time. As a result, we > haven’t been able to get settled down in any one place for too long because > of that fact. We don’t get too comfortable, because history suggests we > shouldn’t. > > So we’re a little sensitive to hate mongering because we’ve seen how it > ends up, and we know history tends to repeat itself. > > Seth Rosen > > On Dec 3, 2024, at 10:26 AM, Paul Shorb <paul.sh...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Yes the speakers may intend to generate anger at Israel. Or at least > recognize that will be a foreseeable reaction. > > However, you lose me when you then add “and by extension the Jewish > community”. What is your basis for inferring that intent? And what do you > mean by “the Jewish community”? I note that many Jews condemn Israel’s > treatment of Gaza. > > On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 11:55 AM Rosa Elena <rvillalobos3...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > While I agree that we should not censor good faith discussions on > difficult topics, can we really say that that the intent of this specific > meeting is in “good faith”? Let’s take a look at the invitation (please > look at the pdf with the actual description of the event). It says things > like the following: > > *“… confirm Israel as a Jewish supremacist/apartheid state, and to further > subjugate or eliminate non-Jews living in a Greater Israel.”* > > *“Zionism today (…) has emerged as an expression of neocolonialism, > Christian nationalism, and fascism.”* > > Using words and phrases like supremacist, Apartheid, elimination of > non-Jews, fascism - is that “good-faith criticism” or hyperbolic language > meant to incense and generate anger/fear of Israel and by extension the > Jewish community? I am all for a fact-based discussion with multiple > perspectives, but that does not seem to be the goal of this talk. > > > I don’t think the “real-life risk” of hate crimes due to this type of > language is as low as some might like to think it is. To me, the fact that > these “experts” chose to use this type of tired rethoric instead of > fact-based and rational arguments diminishes their respectability, and yes, > I find it dangerous. > > - Rosa > > On Mon, Dec 2, 2024 at 6:07 PM Joan Kimball <selene...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Thank you Paul. A very thoughtful, clear response that, for me, puts > these very difficult issues in perspective. > > Joan > > On Mon, Dec 2, 2024, 12:46 PM Paul Shorb <paul.sh...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Rosa - > One can't deny the fact that sometimes, anger at Israel seems to > trigger/release/self-justify hate crimes against Jews in the United States. > Similarly, hate crimes against Muslims soared after 9/11 > <https://naacp.org/resources/hate-crimes-against-muslims>; > African-Americans were lynched in New York City riots of 1863 > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_draft_riots> by people > opposed to the Civil War draft; etc. All of these actions targeting > innocent people based on race or religion obviously are terrible. > > However, that real-life risk isn't sufficient reason to censor good-faith > criticism of Israel for actions that arguably also are terrible - and at a > scale *at least thousands of times as large* as the increase in hate > crimes in the U.S. that might result. Especially when American taxpayer > dollars are supporting those actions, American citizens have not only a > right, but also a moral duty, to speak out against something they believe > is unjustly causing massive suffering in Gaza. > > Of course in doing so such critics should clearly focus their criticism on > the morally responsible decision makers (e.g., Netanyahu, American > politicians who support his policies, etc.), not Jewish people generally. > > - Paul Shorb > > On Fri, Nov 29, 2024 at 11:32 PM Rosa Elena <rvillalobos3...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > The description of the event (in the pdf attached to the original email > and copied below for context) is pretty one-sided and *not* conducive to > “thoughtful discussion” with multiple perspectives. Honestly, I am shocked > Bemis Hall would host an event where the description has such strong > inflammatory language, which could be construed as an attack on a specific > population, of which we have citizens living in Lincoln. > > From the event description: > > “The Gaza genocide that began over a year ago has morphed into Israel’s > three-front strategy to expand its borders and replace non-Jews living in > Gaza, Lebanon, and the West Bank with an army, citizens militia, and Jewish > settlements. Based on past, aggressively pro-Zionist policies, an incoming > Trump administration appears ready to confirm Israel as a Jewish > supremacist/apartheid state, and to further subjugate or eliminate non-Jews > living in a Greater Israel. In calling for an end to Israeli apartheid and > for a shared homeland for all, we join the struggle against the rise of > authoritarianism in Europe, the Global South, and the United States. > Zionism today, as ideology, theology and political project, has emerged as > an expression of neocolonialism, Christian nationalism, and fascism.” > > On Thu, Nov 28, 2024 at 12:33 PM Annamaria San Antonio < > into...@jaikaurhealingarts.com> wrote: > > Agreed. Thank you, Sara !!! > I did not see this at all as propaganda and very much appreciated hearing > about an event with thoughtful discussion. Dangerous ? Perhaps I did not > read through but I did not see "false claims of genocide and apartheid". > > Peace > ~Jai . > > On Wed, Nov 27, 2024 at 4:38 PM Sara Mattes <samat...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I would urge all to listen/attend before passing judgement. > We have few opportunities to hear rom and question directly such > individuals with direct experience. > > Perhaps those objecting are familiar with the speakers and would like to > share their experiences so that others might know what to expect? > > Let’s keep an open mind and allow others to judge for themselves. > > Namaste, > Sara > > On Nov 27, 2024, at 12:22 PM, Jonathan Sheffi <jshe...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Amen, Forest. Ideological diversity is well and good, but let's please > keep LT apolitical and free from this sort of low-grade propaganda. > ᐧ > > On Wed, Nov 27, 2024 at 11:47 AM Forest Brown <forestbrow...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > I appreciate your wanting dialogue on this issue, but advertising speakers > who are sharing false claims of genocide and apartheid is dangerous and > this isn’t the platform for that. > > > > On Nov 27, 2024, at 9:07 AM, Stephen R. Low <steve....@gordianconcepts.com> > wrote: > > > > > > Regards, > Steve Low > > > > *From:* Stephen R. Low <steve....@gordianconcepts.com> > *Sent:* November 27, 2024 9:07 AM > *Subject:* Exploring the Holy Land Problem: Friday, Dec 6 and Saturday, > Dec 7 > > > > *Palestinians, Israeli Jews, and those of us who care about them have > never faced challenges greater than today’s.* > > > > *Contributing to this mess has been the Biden administration’s Holy Land > policies, which have been—shall I be polite and say, “awkward?”* > > > > *Now, we await a Trump administration, whose 2016–2020 Israel policies > were so ill-considered and unbalanced, that many believe they helped to > incite Hamas’s murderous attack on October 7, 2023.* > > > > *These “realities” pose major challenges for all of us seeking peace, > equality, and justice in the Holy Land.* > > > > *Rather than wring our hands in despair, the GRALTA Foundation has > organized two events to help us shape constructive, outside-the-box > thinking about how to refine the American people’s understanding of the > Holy Land Problem and how to advocate for new U.S. Mideast policies that > will improve conditions and achieve security for all who live there.* > > > > *Here are two (free) opportunities to hear two internationally-known > speakers—two experts on the Holy Land’s human rights problem—who can help > us to answer the question, “Where can we go from here?* > > > > *Friday, Dec. 6 @ 7:30 PMCommunity Church of Boston565 Boylston St., > Boston > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/565+Boylston+St.,+Boston?entry=gmail&source=g>* > > *accessible via* > * the T, between Dartmouth & Clarendon ordiscount vouchers available for > Back Bay Parking Garage, 199 Clarendon Street > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/199+Clarendon+Street?entry=gmail&source=g>.* > > > > *Saturday, Dec. 7 @ 2:00 PM* > > > *Bemis Hall 15 Bedford Rd., Lincoln, MA > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/15+Bedford+Rd.,+Lincoln,+MA?entry=gmail&source=g>* > > *park across the street at the “Stone Church”* > > > > *Please join us for one of these events.* > > > > *Our speakers:* > > > > <image002.jpg> > *Mazin Qumsiyeh **Human Rights Activist, Professor**, Bethlehem & > Birzeit Universities* > > > Prof. Qumsiyeh was born and raised in Beit Sahour on the outskirts of > Bethlehem. His evolving world views have been shaped by living under > Israeli occupation, the education he received at universities in the Middle > East and the U.S., and on years of extensive travel throughout the world. > After obtaining a doctorate in Zoology and Genetics from Texas Tech, Mazin > trained at the St. Jude Children’s Research Hospital and taught at the > University of Tennessee, Duke, and then at Yale. He is author of 190 > scientific papers, hundreds of articles, and several books on topics > ranging from cultural heritage to human rights to biodiversity conservation > to cancer. > > After returning to Palestine in 2008, Mazin and his wife Jessie Chang > founded and run (as volunteers) the Palestine Institute for Biodiversity & > Sustainability and the Palestine Museum of Natural History—both situated on > the Bethlehem University campus. > > > > <image004.jpg> > *Mark Braverman **Executive Director, **Kairos, USA* > > > Dr. Mark Braverman is a retired clinical psychologist and trauma > consultant. Raised in a traditional Jewish family, he was steeped in Jewish > religious observance, Bible study, the Hebrew language, and the Zionist > narrative. Confronted by the reality of ethnic cleansing and ongoing > colonial settlement of Palestine, Mark has devoted himself since 2006 to > working for a future of dignity and peace for all the people living between > the River and the Sea. > > Mark has been closely involved in the international church movement for > Palestinian rights. He spoke at the launch of the Kairos Palestine document > in Bethlehem in 2009 and served on the Palestine Ecumenical Forum of the > World Council of Churches. He is the author of two books and numerous > journal articles and book chapters on the Kairos movement, ecumenism, > post-holocaust theology, Jewish and Christian Zionism, and Christian-Jewish > relations. > > > > Regards, > Steve Low > > > <002 v-1 Qumsiyeh-Braverman Poster.pdf> > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. > > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. > > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. > > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. > > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. > > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. > > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. > > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. > > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. > > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. > > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. > > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. > > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/ > . > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > >
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