Yes, I think that’s right too. You are responsible to police your own. Many conversations along that line in the house and among friends and colleagues in recent times.
> On Nov 8, 2024, at 16:01, Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm> wrote: > > Agreeing with everything you say. > > I still believe, however, that unless both sides reject or severely moderate > their respective radical fringe, all those who simply want to work to solve > hard problems, are spinning their wheels. > > davew > > > On Fri, Nov 8, 2024, at 12:12 PM, Santafe wrote: >> This feels a bit to the side of the operative point, to me. >> >> The Atlantic article Marcus forwarded was good, and useful. People >> complaining (very intelligently and groundedly, it seemed to me) about >> trying to solve problems that they understood well, and getting brushed off >> or used. That’s not by any means the whole story, but it is part of the >> important story. >> >> Another important part of the story is that the Ds gained vote share with >> suburban educated whites, while losing it with border Tejanos, various >> working class, and some others who probably aren’t fascist enthusiasts. >> >> And then the big one in the room: why so much noise about amplification of >> group identification, cultural haranguing, and grievance? >> >> Here would be a take: >> >> 1. We face some hard problems at the moment. Dealing with border crossing, >> when the circumstances that drive people to it are getting more intense, is >> one. Figuring out, politically, how to keep a coalition together to contain >> the concentration of wealth and power, and the loss of agency for >> almost-everybody, is another. I’m sure there are more. (There are things >> like Climate that it is not hard to talk about; we can come back later to >> how much of the talk is backed up by being concretely useful. Those >> problems are not at the center of what I write for this note. They apply >> after you have dealt with the things in this note.) >> >> 2. What is true about hard problems? If you try to solve them, often it >> doesn’t work and you end up frustrated, while the problem hasn’t gone away. >> You also probably get blamed by anybody somewhat remote, and even some of >> those who are local. Though if you made an honest, hard, and sensible >> effort, the others working with you might appreciate you. >> >> 3. What do courageous people do w.r.t. hard problems? After being beaten >> one day, they come back and try again (and probably get beaten again); >> repeat. But the sense that it is necessary, so you don’t get to drop it, >> binds them. >> >> 4. What is an alternative to courageous work on hard problems? Performative >> distractions, pandering, lot of focus on grievance as its own end. >> >> 5. Who falls for the items in 4? People who aren’t currently underwater >> dealing with one or another of the hard problems. Up until the recent past >> and even the present, that has included a lot of suburban educated whites, >> lots of people in academic environments, people relatively protected in >> cities. Probably other groups one could argue for. >> >> What the Ds have been doing is, of course, complicated and not of just one >> kind. The ACA did absolute concrete good for some tens of millions of >> people immediately, and it realigned incentives a little bit so the insurers >> were more aligned with people who need medical services, and less with those >> who gouge to provide it. Biden’s spending of federal money on blue-collar, >> unionized jobs, and re-localization of some production that was hazardous to >> outsource, did concrete good. It’s all kind of stuff around the edges, as >> most political activity is, but I give credit to them. One can argue >> whether electrification is really going to solve important problems (and I >> know people on both sides of that argument who argue from evidence), but >> within the choices now, and the mostly-short term of political actors, it >> seems a legitimate political activity to try to build that out. That’s the >> good side of things the Ds have done. But a lot of the performative culture >> stuff, to the extent that it has become excessive (let me speak from the >> inside of universities, so I remain somewhat concrete), is IMO part of the >> performative vote-getting from people who want to tell themselves they are >> being humane, while not getting real about understanding or figuring out how >> to help with a variety of problems that they themselves aren’t currently >> drowning in. >> >> What would a political organization understand, if it believed it couldn’t >> hide in performance? Some of these things: >> >> 1. Everybody has a limited scope. Like, very very limited. >> >> 2. Most people’s scope is limited in horizon in time and in society to the >> pretty immediate-present and ultra-local network and place. >> >> 3. Ergo, nothing coordinated gets done except through putting quite a lot of >> weight on reputation through some channels. >> >> 4. People run across ranges. Some with a lot of time in education, some >> with little. Likewise for every other dimension of lived development. Most >> of average ability in thinking, some smarter, some dumber (notably, probably >> a completely independent coordinate from the former). >> >> 5. A livable democratic society, if possible at all, is only possible if >> people with all those limits can be coordinated to make roughly reasonable >> choices enough of the time. >> >> 6. People won’t trust you on problems they don’t understand, unless you have >> already built up relations of trust with them by being useful and helpful >> w.r.t. problems they do understand. >> >> Point 6 is the huge one where political groups fail in decadent societies. >> In societies where the people haven’t all become babies, like those who have >> known real losses in wars and such, or remarkable cases like Taiwan, getting >> more of that “my brother’s keeper” impulse active can be easier. In the >> U.S. it has been very hard, for a long time. >> >> It seems desirable to me to give credit for the things really done, but then >> also to call out the very many areas where political groups went hiding >> rather than having commitment and courage, and then feel some sense of >> urgency about the latter. >> >> All the other degenerate stuff, the fascist core in the society, etc., are >> there too, and those were the subjects of other sub-threads. I don’t mean >> to discount them. But I think they flourished in conditions where the trust >> and courage had gone missing for long times, and that those will be >> necessary resources if we want to start to push the nihilistic core down to >> size. >> >> >> Eric >> >>> On Nov 8, 2024, at 0:48, steve smith <sasm...@swcp.com >>> <mailto:sasm...@swcp.com>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Sarbajit wrote: >>>> "> ..,The people who voted for him probably do not read Paxton, Arendt or >>>> Levitsky and Ziblat ..." >>>> The people who voted for him don't read... >>>> >>>> We have a similar problem in India, the great semi-literate masses have >>>> been handed cheap smartp[hiones with cheap data plans so they are >>>> connected 24x7 to the Matrix. >>>> >>> Thank you for this pithy bit of parallax, it cuts at least two ways. >>> >>> I believe that we 'elites' make the mistake of wanting the >>> unwashed/semi-literate/??? masses to share our perspectives (whether we be >>> progressive/conservative, liberal/authoritative) and support our vision for >>> *their* future. We then get upset when *they* listen to the *other* >>> elites rather than us. >>> >>> I was completely convinced that Kamala & Co had made such a good argument >>> for *our* vision of a future for humanity (American Exceptional Centric of >>> course) that it would *overwhelmingly* (at least by the margin Trump took >>> over Harris but vice-versa) persuade the folks whose future we are hoping >>> to define. As it turns out, the *other* camp of elites managed to find >>> the right chords to strike, notes to hit to resonate with 74M voters? >>> >>> I'm probably misusing "elite" here (or at least idiosyncratically) to >>> reference those with agency in society above some arbitrary threshold. >>> Education, Social Status, Professional/Trade Status, Ability, Insight, all >>> combine to support this Agency-in-Context, and even more relevant perhaps >>> is the *perception* of Agency? When those who wield >>> economic/political/practical power (the wealthy, the successful politician >>> or rhetoritician, the champion fighter or consummate craftsman) speak, we >>> listen. Trump had Musk and Rogan and Hulk Hogan and the threat/promise of >>> "the STRONG people" (Bikers, LEO, Soldiers, Truckers, Cowboys, ... ) while >>> Harris had all the big name entertainment talent (except Lee Greenwood?) >>> and Academics (except Dennis Prager and 6 other similar wankers) and the >>> Generals ( who the rank and file can be taught or reminded to resent) and >>> the intelligencia. >>> >>> I'm still waiting/hoping/ideating on a better way to achieve collective >>> emergent "wisdom". Glen's references to the tension between "liberal" >>> individuality and any of the extant brands of collectivism (party >>> membership, military marshalling, religious faithing, culting, etc) >>> gestures in a useful direction. Well formed (if not always understood) >>> variations on Swarming (nod to Glen and Marcus) in biology are interesting >>> and maybe the best route in, but I'm still stalled and the smash into a new >>> era of explicit Trumpism is distracting me, even if it somehow forces the >>> parallax I'm missing. >>> >>> Mumble, >>> >>> - Steve >>> >>> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / >>> ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,uI3A6pNU51k3NcUJDgEzm3hqiMwHtaAYzNZ743wQHhJRBKUa-AmiDgKsEl4mXl9SKYxp-tYTt-I0xaGoUPtSHtX9i9vmxOYoDbUXiBsxtixbUUI,&typo=1 >>> to (un)subscribe >>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,s84upr9x50VclPe2GhhBlklRqGMAJmXzOroewQVaiVSmkkGY3yqCStDuj-_uDHIBfgk-Wifn-oborEcX8m10oeb41c9TjqZ1gj8zQOKQQDFR45c,&typo=1 >>> FRIAM-COMIC >>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,DxWRt3D5TCoWoM3Lnzgck9YZ7qwhfMMALBHvUb56QZpi0930a5TpEyMgbVXUAtuEu_3LgtVIJC76yHmyyPC0KA7JCFPmPo77R6SS__46-WjizQ,,&typo=1 >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,jMNtATqG9xNfk2I95w-fBW2mtmVobLYSSHu-WSXk3I_jjGQ5KaMPfFW_Lwp-N6CB-rJbZYOAwphBPKkttiFuiPZQV3m3dOK1mo0GjmCyh-o8ozrL66zPIA,,&typo=1 >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> >> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / >> ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,yzJcosJbDr2kBojo_dqYPKys0reol-sgYubPMFktEqJFVWrA9Lck1Kf3byGTosSDYR3ScLoOEbsj5LV7zMhJrcvxfqp6QyCjGeZDUogQO_XU9v1lSYbWf2enjKQ,&typo=1> >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,RzIANuWv7NnE36thVCvToUzyxryHvMky6sSg7ySuwJRLB5BqNLMlK3mlwkYfmugvWDbfDmziaOCSebKsuwrdWF3_U_2dVraEiELiy6fOmWxv-5HgMw,,&typo=1> >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,0QnV35wRS__v9oBZrhaAAfyfn4p9-7G-K89PIVI1XeaqTJYQb9HNV5XVm28RwGTt39tY1TpuRoh9aJv6VgIznSmHPLSRHFxWp7_NiztqMQ,,&typo=1> >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,NwS3y0XzpOGHBCKS0ToQyz5xErsaCgdE9Sw1dQSYmfr3pTdGBz9TykOf-cRKK1QghYEFfkGzwet2wys8sqNAGG-lA-M9TiEEK__GV43m&typo=1> >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> > > .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... > --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,ZgCH3hKI6DWS4BhEuPgN8GpkstiGzfX2M3LvVur42iwZzxIot7MfndfVCOEighs8JW2VEMfIRfRInennqlwNT5c_WqVxk_WYFYgUZF9do6ntTU_Z5WhS5Gg,&typo=1 > to (un)subscribe > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,trSgTiNJIwP6VXKmvVffrgus2LQOrjvJ6WRJeHURAkTiJjRygbkL5NrGTgWSV_2y__maGy8ISx5f2CSL6W7gIuvg07n3kmn3RgCQSRK5ow,,&typo=1 > FRIAM-COMIC > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,13R6_K2YNGt7rOsJLGGl3QxgEx3-nDPIr-Tgvz5UBV2TTriN6BVZCaRYK1BSL3olF3Ks5hU9FjIDwckWKWkAkWNH42eqIxeW5YUmv3d3994,&typo=1 > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,Gbh22qu2WIgjFKCqjiBB_NLTN6zBJcdIh-fsPQCpD5wgoGfV1HkxTGWfY8c2kKfZnr-DDXqvrINy7odMd2Z3aGjKU4DYPu4Ps4aVSCEBs3KuEqYHm6rRg1ksmIbr&typo=1 > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
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