It’s both. The ignorant part is the same as 2).
Gender dysphoria is a condition that some people experience and supporting them can ensure they remain, healthy productive people. It is absurd to put social norms above an established diagnosis. In any case, and Harris even mentioned this during the campaign, it is not that common and doesn’t figure that much in anyone’s day-to-day life. It’s just a bit of divisiveness that is folded into the racist anti-DEI talk. IMO the best thing to do now is to circle the wagons and protect the people that can still think. Saddle up, lock and load. Marcus From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of Prof David West Sent: Friday, November 8, 2024 9:21 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] How democracies die Reading the post-election pundits, I see two major themes: 1) She lost because the electorate is overwhelmingly misogynistic, racist, and ignorant. 2) He won because he "gave the appearance of" listening to the electorate. Eight years ago I lost my credibility among the FRIAM group meeting at St. John's when I stated that Trump would win (after listening to one of his first rallies a week or so after he declared) because Democrats were so focused on the obvious flaws of the individual and asserting that anyone voting for him had to share those same flaws. No one could possibly vote for Trump unless they were in the "basket of deplorables." I believe the same thing happened this year. One party almost totally ignored the electorate (vast majorities of both parties) and the other "gave the appearance of" listening to them. Both parties allowed themselves to be defined in terms of their most radical fringe elements and attempted to demonize the other side on the basis of that characterization. A substantial portion of voters in both parties voted out of fear of the other side based on that demonization. No one listened to anyone except their respective fringes, supposedly their "base." (Trump, mostly, only appeared to listen, IMO.) I fear for the future of this country as much as many of those on this list, but for different reasons. Fascism is not a realistic fear (just as silly as the comments I heard at FRIAM that we would be in a nuclear war within months of Trump's inauguration—and yes, gentlemen, you did say that). The fear comes from the perception that neither side is willing to confront their respective radicals and demand reason. For example: (deliberately chose as most polarizing) - the right must recognize that abortion, pre-viability, should be legal, safe, and private. (The notion that life begins at conception is a modern, 1869, invention, via Pope Pius (who did NOT speak ex cathedra) and a radical contradiction of Aquinas, Augustine, and Church dogma. - the left must admit that sex is 98% binary and gender is nothing more than an individual choice that may or may not conform to local cultural 'norms'. Individual choices as to gender deserve no more and no less attention, and certainly not legal protection, than individual choices as to profession. (Homosexuality is biological, but independent, so far as we currently know, of sex determining genes. Trans will probably also turn out to be biological, but probably only peripherally related to sex-determinant genes.) I see warfare as our future. Not bullets and bombs, probably; but within every aspect of our legal, administrative, and legislative system. (Not to mention the unrelenting screaming from traditional and contemporary media.) davew On Thu, Nov 7, 2024, at 11:48 PM, steve smith wrote: Sarbajit wrote: "> ..,The people who voted for him probably do not read Paxton, Arendt or Levitsky and Ziblat ..." The people who voted for him don't read... We have a similar problem in India, the great semi-literate masses have been handed cheap smartp[hiones with cheap data plans so they are connected 24x7 to the Matrix. Thank you for this pithy bit of parallax, it cuts at least two ways. I believe that we 'elites' make the mistake of wanting the unwashed/semi-literate/??? masses to share our perspectives (whether we be progressive/conservative, liberal/authoritative) and support our vision for *their* future. We then get upset when *they* listen to the *other* elites rather than us. I was completely convinced that Kamala & Co had made such a good argument for *our* vision of a future for humanity (American Exceptional Centric of course) that it would *overwhelmingly* (at least by the margin Trump took over Harris but vice-versa) persuade the folks whose future we are hoping to define. As it turns out, the *other* camp of elites managed to find the right chords to strike, notes to hit to resonate with 74M voters? I'm probably misusing "elite" here (or at least idiosyncratically) to reference those with agency in society above some arbitrary threshold. Education, Social Status, Professional/Trade Status, Ability, Insight, all combine to support this Agency-in-Context, and even more relevant perhaps is the *perception* of Agency? When those who wield economic/political/practical power (the wealthy, the successful politician or rhetoritician, the champion fighter or consummate craftsman) speak, we listen. Trump had Musk and Rogan and Hulk Hogan and the threat/promise of "the STRONG people" (Bikers, LEO, Soldiers, Truckers, Cowboys, ... ) while Harris had all the big name entertainment talent (except Lee Greenwood?) and Academics (except Dennis Prager and 6 other similar wankers) and the Generals ( who the rank and file can be taught or reminded to resent) and the intelligencia. I'm still waiting/hoping/ideating on a better way to achieve collective emergent "wisdom". Glen's references to the tension between "liberal" individuality and any of the extant brands of collectivism (party membership, military marshalling, religious faithing, culting, etc) gestures in a useful direction. Well formed (if not always understood) variations on Swarming (nod to Glen and Marcus) in biology are interesting and maybe the best route in, but I'm still stalled and the smash into a new era of explicit Trumpism is distracting me, even if it somehow forces the parallax I'm missing. Mumble, - Steve .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. 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